Go home

[pap]

Yay. Now being challenged in courts.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/26/go-home-ad-campaign-court-challenge

 

Your taxpayer money will now be used to defend this daft scheme in court!

[holepuncture]

A picture of one of the vans.

 

 

This is yet another case where the racist card is being played as the person using it has no

logical argument against the proposal that normal people will accept. They know that decent

people hate being called a racist especially when it is obvious that they are not, so use it to

try to frighten and thereby silence people.

 

It will come to a point where the Brits will say enough is enough, the reprisals will be wide and far reaching.

 

I am pro 'Go Home' bus, sends out the right message.

[pap]

It will come to a point where the Brits will say enough is enough, the reprisals will be wide and far reaching.

 

I am pro 'Go Home' bus, sends out the right message.

 

Quelle surprise. EDL apologist supports a van that says "Go Home"

[View From The Top]

It will come to a point where the Brits will say enough is enough, the reprisals will be wide and far reaching.

 

Some extra loud tutting?

 

I'm comfortably left wing but even know that immigration has gone way, way too far, especially from the sub-continent and there is a definite shift to the right in the mainstream public about the topic.

 

Saying that, if integration was better perhaps it would ease tensions?

[Barry Sanchez]

Been a member of the Labour Party for 20 years, open to the debate on whether we shoudl be in Europe or not, certainly should be givent he vote on it, immigration is far far too high, the liberal elite who livv in white suburbs though drive for a forced multi culturism state, without a queen and without a flag.

[SuperMikey]

been a member of the labour party for 20 years, open to the debate on whether we shoudl be in europe or not, certainly should be givent he vote on it, immigration is far far too high, the liberal elite who livv in white suburbs though drive for a forced multi culturism state, without a queen and without a flag.

 

There is no Barry, only DUUUNE

[Barry Sanchez]

I have to Mikey I would rather you saw Shane Warne concerning your hair loss than making old false boring statements me little lady.

[Minty]

Saying that, if integration was better perhaps it would ease tensions?

Absolutely, but that's just the tip of the iceberg... Like many things, IMO, the best long term solutions require a bit of willingness, patience, effort, investment, to see the rewards, but as with so many issues in this country nowadays, a lot of people want to see a short term 'fix', and politicians rarely look beyond the next General Election and so policies end up being very short-termist, which helps no one.

 

I'm with you - I'm broadly speaking quite left wing, but recognise that our country has problems and limits which need to be considered, and that immigration needs to be controlled more effectively. But a robust, inclusive immigration policy that sees immigrants integrated in the UK better, and making a valued contribution without simply draining resources, is essential for long term harmony... question is are MP's and the electorate to look at the long term picture, or are we now stuck in the short-term reactive bubble that most of our politics seems to be trapped in?

[pap]

Absolutely, but that's just the tip of the iceberg... Like many things, IMO, the best long term solutions require a bit of willingness, patience, effort, investment, to see the rewards, but as with so many issues in this country nowadays, a lot of people want to see a short term 'fix', and politicians rarely look beyond the next General Election and so policies end up being very short-termist, which helps no one.

 

I'm with you - I'm broadly speaking quite left wing, but recognise that our country has problems and limits which need to be considered, and that immigration needs to be controlled more effectively. But a robust, inclusive immigration policy that sees immigrants integrated in the UK better, and making a valued contribution without simply draining resources, is essential for long term harmony... question is are MP's and the electorate to look at the long term picture, or are we now stuck in the short-term reactive bubble that most of our politics seems to be trapped in?

 

If 500 million people can theoretically land on your doorstep and there is nothing you can do about it, how can you control immigration?

[Barry Sanchez]

If 500 million people can theoretically land on your doorstep and there is nothing you can do about it, how can you control immigration?

 

Simple, leave the EU.

[pap]

Simple, leave the EU.

 

I agree. Any discussion of immigration without addressing the elephant in the room is pointless.

[Sour Mash]

Yay. Now being challenged in courts.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/26/go-home-ad-campaign-court-challenge

 

Your taxpayer money will now be used to defend this daft scheme in court!

"The Refugee and Migrant Forum of East London (Ramfel) held "an emergency tension-monitoring" meeting with Home Office officials on Friday afternoon after receiving complaints about the intimidating nature of the message."

 

Wow. What the hell has happened to this country.

[Sour Mash]

Simple, leave the EU.

Agreed, but I believe the government must also be able to do more about the continued high levels of non-EU immigration - I can't believe their hands are completely tied in that regard.

[Window Cleaner]

Some extra loud tutting?

 

I'm comfortably left wing but even know that immigration has gone way, way too far, especially from the sub-continent and there is a definite shift to the right in the mainstream public about the topic.

 

Saying that, if integration was better perhaps it would ease tensions?

 

I think that you may find that integration becomes incredibly difficult when the immigration at the root of the problem has drained resources to an extent where integration becomes impossible. that's certainly what has happened in france. We were a nation with a really open attitude towards immigrants but now there is so little money that we just can't afford any more pro-integration measures. Our system of family allowances and the lack of birth control in certain ethnies has meant that our once generous system is just crumbling under the weight of immigration. It means that employment is taxed so heavily to support said system that companies just can't afford to employ people any more. Think we're just one step behind the Greeks just now; We've something like 11% total unemployment and somewhere around the 17/18% if you count people on short time because there's nothing else available. Youth unemployment is somewhere around the 30% mark. The French pay immigrants if they want to return to their homelands but even there there is abuse, same people come back masquerading as their brother or cousin and get paid again. Our system is not designed to accomodate the mentality of certain inviduals. If there's profit to be made they are first in the queue.

Edited 29 July, 2013 by Window Cleaner

[Barry Sanchez]

"The Refugee and Migrant Forum of East London (Ramfel) held "an emergency tension-monitoring" meeting with Home Office officials on Friday afternoon after receiving complaints about the intimidating nature of the message."

 

Wow. What the hell has happened to this country.

 

We lost our ******** and as ever started batting for the minority as we love an underdog, the issue is now the silent majority are the underdog and its the tail wagging the dog, a long term vision of the extreme left is to guilt trip and slander everyone who dares speaks up for their Nation.

Country hating republican traitors.

[pap]

We lost our ******** and as ever started batting for the minority as we love an underdog, the issue is now the silent majority are the underdog and its the tail wagging the dog, a long term vision of the extreme left is to guilt trip and slander everyone who dares speaks up for their Nation.

Country hating republican traitors.

 

Do you espouse these opinions in your CLP meetings?

[Minty]

I think the real problem lies in our internal policies. Ask yourselves WHY so many people want to come to the UK? Our country is attractive to many immigrants because they can see how easy it is for many of our *own* citizens to sponge off the state. The two problems are intrinsically linked IMO.

 

We need to make sure that those in the country, whether native or not, are making a valued contribution to our country and our society, and make it harder for people to freeload. If we do that, immigration will naturally reduce because we will be seen as less of a soft-touch, but those who do come will actually be contributing more.

 

It also needs more recognition that people need a role, and a purpose, and to learn the skills that will help them provide for themselves. It never ceases to amaze me how our (excellent) charities are so good at recognising that, but our government does not. By giving money or food or water to people in need, charities only solve short term issues. Which is why they learnt long ago that our charity efforts needed to focus on giving those in need the means to make their own money, grow their own food or collect their own water, they are infinitely better off and happier in the process because they can provide for themselves.

 

Rather than always talking in terms of financial benefits, lets give people the opportunity to learn skills, to contribute to our economy and earn for themselves... those who want to learn and improve will flourish, and in immigration terms, those who do not, will be put off from coming here in the first place.

 

The Go home campaign is a short-term reaction to short-term anxieties, and IMO, indicative of long-term failures by various governments of all colours, to put in place robust systems to make sure everyone in this country plays a part in it's success.

[Barry Sanchez]

Do you espouse these opinions in your CLP meetings?

 

Garston and Halewood to be fair pap, yes many working/middle class feel let down by Miliband

 

1) We have made no inroads in the most unpopular Government in living memory.

2) Europe

3) Immigration

4) Lurch to the centre ground to get middle England vote

5) The ever widening of the gap between the Unions and the Labour Party.

 

We need a socialist party thats relevant to the working masses, a friend of mine works with all the Labour Party mp's in Liverpool and they are concerned in certain areas their support could fall away.

[pap]

I think the real problem lies in our internal policies. Ask yourselves WHY so many people want to come to the UK? Our country is attractive to many immigrants because they can see how easy it is for many of our *own* citizens to sponge off the state. The two problems are intrinsically linked IMO.

 

We need to make sure that those in the country, whether native or not, are making a valued contribution to our country and our society, and make it harder for people to freeload. If we do that, immigration will naturally reduce because we will be seen as less of a soft-touch, but those who do come will actually be contributing more.

 

It also needs more recognition that people need a role, and a purpose, and to learn the skills that will help them provide for themselves. It never ceases to amaze me how our (excellent) charities are so good at recognising that, but our government does not. By giving money or food or water to people in need, charities only solve short term issues. Which is why they learnt long ago that our charity efforts needed to focus on giving those in need the means to make their own money, grow their own food or collect their own water, they are infinitely better off and happier in the process because they can provide for themselves.

 

Rather than always talking in terms of financial benefits, lets give people the opportunity to learn skills, to contribute to our economy and earn for themselves... those who want to learn and improve will flourish, and in immigration terms, those who do not, will be put off from coming here in the first place.

 

The Go home campaign is a short-term reaction to short-term anxieties, and IMO, indicative of long-term failures by various governments of all colours, to put in place robust systems to make sure everyone in this country plays a part in it's success.

 

Love your work, and agree largely with your conclusions, but am utterly at odds with your opening paragraph. Our system traps people in poverty; recent fixes just plunge people further into it. The great hope, of course, is that all of these scroungers will get off their arses and find work. The great reality is that there is a lot less of it about. I don't know what your experience of the new immigrant is, but the vast majority I've come into contact with are working people looking to meet specific ambitions by being here. Their very presence causes people to sponge off the state, because employers get ready-made skilled employees from overseas, and don't need to put as much effort into training domestic help. Spookily, that coincides with our largest youth unemployment problem in living memory. Might be putting 2+2 together and making five, but the link is tempting. The other thing I'd argue is that the main reason Eastern Europeans come here is to set themselves up in their own countries. Five years of hard work and slumming it can set them up for life, at least in the sense of taking care of life's major expenses. Can we promise the same to our own kids?

 

We need to give people something to aim for, I agree. I think we also need to make guarantees for good citizenship, tangible benefits for people doing stuff the right way, such as social housing.

 

The Tories put the UK wide riots down to pure criminality and opportunism, and yes, we had the showcase crims put front and centre in the media, but I can't help something deeper was at play, especially in London. I wonder, how many of those rioters have any sort of stake in London, or are likely to ever be able to afford any sort of stake in London? Doesn't excuse their behaviour, but could easily be a factor into why they were willing to rob and destroy so wantonly. Not their stuff; never will be.

 

In immigration terms, I continue to maintain that there is no control while we're part of the Single Market. The Go Home campaign is a crude lunge at the only lever the Conservatives are brave enough to touch. Probs for the best, really. They're the ones who signed us up for the Single Market in the first place, amid a lot of dissenting voices.

[Bearsy]

They follow the star to Kensington. It is holy pilgrimage. We cannot deny this people, baby cambridge is not just for England.

[Minty]

Love your work, and agree largely with your conclusions, but am utterly at odds with your opening paragraph.

 

I'm glad/disappointed to read that! lol.

 

You make some fair points about some immigrants, but I suspect lots of people sponging off the state would do so irrespective of many immigrants. There are of course many different individuals involved, with different motives so it's difficult to pinpoint it on any one reason - which is another reason why I cringe at some of the sweeping statements made by others, and some of the short-term 'fixes' proposed, when the situation is far from simple to fix.

 

Many of your hypotheses are quite reasonable, but just a few in amongst a very big complicated mess of economic and social factors.

 

I am also loathe to criticise those who come here in search of work and a genuine desire to improve their fortunes back home, whilst there are Brits who also seek to do the same in other countries as it suits them too. It may not be for exactly the same reasons, or the same timescales, but we should not be hypocrites.

 

I also do actually agree that the Single Market has contributed to the situation - my main point was simply to highlight that the problem is far bigger than just 'they're over here, taking out jobs and our money' etc, which sadly seems to be the rallying call for many who lack the capacity to understand the issue in any greater depth. But I guess the same goes for so many political issues, so I shouldn't be surprised.

[pap]

Turns out this sort of sh!t has been going on for centuries

 

[Grey Crab]

I'd step on a c**t like Barry Sanchez to help a decent, kind, humane Eastern European in need.

[Special K]

I wouldn't be suprised to see the Saintweb intelligencia pitching up outside SMS with a "Fack Off Foxy" and a "Go Home Guly" advert van on the first home game of the season.

[Barry Sanchez]

I'd step on a c**t like Barry Sanchez to help a decent, kind, humane Eastern European in need.

 

So would I.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I think the real problem lies in our internal policies. Ask yourselves WHY so many people want to come to the UK? Our country is attractive to many immigrants because they can see how easy it is for many of our *own* citizens to sponge off the state. The two problems are intrinsically linked IMO.

 

 

It amazes me that people actually believe that people are prepared to leave behind family and the places in which they grew up so that they can claim benefits in the UK. Foreigners come to the UK because we have a prominent culture, because many already speak English, because they already have friends/relatives here, and because we're relatively tolerant. This idea that immigrants are attracted to a life on benefits in a council estate is hilarious.

[Tokyo-Saint]

This idea that immigrants are attracted to a life on benefits in a council estate is hilarious.

 

Are you trying to say they are not sitting there watching shameless thinking, that is the life for me?

[Minty]

It amazes me that people actually believe that people are prepared to leave behind family and the places in which they grew up so that they can claim benefits in the UK. Foreigners come to the UK because we have a prominent culture, because many already speak English, because they already have friends/relatives here, and because we're relatively tolerant. This idea that immigrants are attracted to a life on benefits in a council estate is hilarious.

Clearly I didn't mean all of them, but I do believe *some* of them do indeed come because - and you could say it's an extension of the 'tolerance' that you yourself mention - of the way we tolerate those who seem to only want to exist on the basis of entitlement.

 

I have met and worked with some really great people who have come to the UK from other countries. In my personal experience, many of them have been far harder working than some of my British colleagues. But my point was that whatever the culture, there will always be those who try to get something for nothing - and our country makes that easier than many others.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Clearly I didn't mean all of them, but I do believe *some* of them do indeed come because - and you could say it's an extension of the 'tolerance' that you yourself mention - of the way we tolerate those who seem to only want to exist on the basis of entitlement.

 

I have met and worked with some really great people who have come to the UK from other countries. In my personal experience, many of them have been far harder working than some of my British colleagues. But my point was that whatever the culture, there will always be those who try to get something for nothing - and our country makes that easier than many others.

 

Possibly. I'd imagine that as a % of total immigrants and as a % of total welface claimants they are very small - certainly not worth the amount of "column inches" devoted to them.

[Tokyo-Saint]

I wonder how the % of immigrants claiming benefits measures against the number of immigrants paying tax/NI balances out.

 

The immigrants were brought in to save us or at least delay us from a massive pensions crisis as the baby boomers retired and there was a massive inverted pyramid between those that are working and those that are claiming pensions.

 

Don't read about that in the daily mail do you dune?

[Whitey Grandad]

I wonder how the % of immigrants claiming benefits measures against the number of immigrants paying tax/NI balances out.

 

The immigrants were brought in to save us or at least delay us from a massive pensions crisis as the baby boomers retired and there was a massive inverted pyramid between those that are working and those that are claiming pensions.

 

Don't read about that in the daily mail do you dune?

 

But that just creates another giant pyramid/Ponzi scheme

[bridge too far]

I wonder how the % of immigrants claiming benefits measures against the number of immigrants paying tax/NI balances out.

 

The immigrants were brought in to save us or at least delay us from a massive pensions crisis as the baby boomers retired and there was a massive inverted pyramid between those that are working and those that are claiming pensions.

 

Don't read about that in the daily mail do you dune?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/08/immigration-opposition-falls-benefits-survey

 

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/immigration-the-real-story/

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/halting-immigration-would-cost-uk-18bn-in-five-years-8555344.html

[Tokyo-Saint]

But that just creates another giant pyramid/Ponzi scheme

 

No one said it was a good idea, in fact it was a gamble. Governments don't work like that in the most part They are usually happy to push tomorrows problem on to next week/next year/next generation if it moves the problem away from them.

 

I think they guess/hope that a lot of the young poles/whoever will one day move back home and not stay here to claim pensions/die but ultimately the politicians don't care as they themselves will be dead by then.

[Barry Sanchez]

No one said it was a good idea, in fact it was a gamble. Governments don't work like that in the most part They are usually happy to push tomorrows problem on to next week/next year/next generation if it moves the problem away from them.

 

I think they guess/hope that a lot of the young poles/whoever will one day move back home and not stay here to claim pensions/die but ultimately the politicians don't care as they themselves will be dead by then.

 

Poles are positive immigration, negative immigration are the divided towns you probably dont see nor care about, Oldham, Rochdale and Dewsbury are a few examples.

 

I think people confuse immigration with their selfish agendas, integration in the British way of life is key without the immigrants losing their identity, the extreme left would sell this whole Nation for the benefit of the immigrant, on irony stopping them from coming as they would destroy what was attractive to them in the first place.

Edited 31 July, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Poles are positive immigration, negative immigration are the divided towns you probably dont see nor care about, Oldham, Rochdale and Dewsbury are a few examples.

 

I think people confuse immigration with their selfish agendas, integration in the British way of life is key without the immigrants losing their identity, the extreme left would sell this whole Nation for the benefit of the immigrant, on irony stopping them from coming as they would destroy what was attractive to them in the first place.

 

On the zero hours thread you said it was capitalists who welcome all from around the world. In this one it's the "extreme left". Getting confused?

[Barry Sanchez]

On the zero hours thread you said it was capitalists who welcome all from around the world. In this one it's the "extreme left". Getting confused?

 

Thats my point, Jesus wept, they welcome them in and yet think zero hours contracts are good.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Dune is a mixed up man southsea

[Barry Sanchez]

Dune is a mixed up man southsea

 

Whats mixed up about wanting positive immigration and looking after the workforce?

Seems a rather good idea to me.

 

Sounds like people here want cheap labour, classy.

[Tokyo-Saint]

You missed out "its a race to the bottom".

[Barry Sanchez]

No need to mention that. But thats one race in Europe we would be doing quite well in.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Thats my point, Jesus wept, they welcome them in and yet think zero hours contracts are good.

 

So both "the extreme left" and "capitalists" are champions of immigration?

[pap]

Whats mixed up about wanting positive immigration and looking after the workforce?

Seems a rather good idea to me.

 

Sounds like people here want cheap labour, classy.

 

I take it you no longer want your apology, dune ol' buddy ol' pal.

[Barry Sanchez]

So both "the extreme left" and "capitalists" are champions of immigration?

 

Yes thats my point Southsea.

[Barry Sanchez]

I take it you no longer want your apology, dune ol' buddy ol' pal.

 

Why wouldn't I?

[Sour Mash]

So both "the extreme left" and "capitalists" are champions of immigration?

I'd say that's probably right to a fair extent.

[Barry Sanchez]

Cheap labour for capitalists and votes for the left, opportunistic.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I didn't have that big a problem with the go home van but the recent tweets from the home office are extremely distasteful. Eg

 

 

So much for innocent until proven guilty.

[Sour Mash]

I didn't have that big a problem with the go home van but the recent tweets from the home office are extremely distasteful. Eg

 

 

So much for innocent until proven guilty.

How on earth is that extremely distasteful?

[pap]

How on earth is that extremely distasteful?

 

You tell him, Sour Mash.

 

Illegal immigrants shouldn't be working in our Nail Bars.

 

The Home Office, who do the fine job of arresting illegal immigrants in Nail Bars, should definitely make sure the public is aware of how their money is being spent.

 

 

Look at those Home Office staff go! Very impressive work for men their size.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

How on earth is that extremely distasteful?

 

- It's assuming guilt even if the wording is careful to say 'suspected' - if you were wrongly accused of shoplifting would you want your arrest plastered all over Twitter by the authorities?

- Why doesn't the Home Office do this for other crimes? Why is illegal immigration so terrible that it warrants public shaming?

- As a civil service department, the Home Office is supposed to be politically neutral. So why has it adopted the inflammatory rhetoric of the Conservative party?

- I don't see illegal immigrants as bad people. They have mostly come from places with extreme poverty and are just trying to make a tolerable life for themselves. Sure we have immigration rules and they need to be enforced, but parading around suspects and demonising them is unnecessary and undignified.