Mossie : The Plane That Saved Britain

[Saint in Paradise]

Just a reminder for those interested and lucky enough to be able to watch it.

 

Channel 4 Sunday 21st July at 20.00 hrs ( 8.00 P.M. )

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Thanks, I'll make sure I watch that.

 

The Supermarine Spitfire and Arvo Lancaster may be the most famous RAF types to emerge from WWII, but the De Havilland Mosquito fully deserves a place in public esteem alongside these icons of our aviation history in my view. An unusual aircraft not only because of its outstanding performance, wooden construction and lack of defensive armament (speed=protection in Geoffrey De Havilland's view), but because of the fact that De Havilland's had to almost force this design onto a reluctant Air Ministry who were more interested in developing conventional bombers.

 

One of the sure signs of a truly successful combat aircraft design is its adaptability, and in this respect the Mosquito - equally excellent in the bomber, fighter-bomber, reconnaissance, and night fighter roles had few equals. This is not to say that the 'Wooden Wonder' was without its faults, the glue employed to construct the airframe could fail with disastrous consequences (this factor may have have been involved in Guy Gibson's death) but the records show that aircrew assigned to a Mosquito Squadron had a much better chance of surviving a tour of duty compared to their less fortunate contemporaries sent elsewhere.

 

During the latter stages of WWII when the mighty US aircraft industry was producing vast numbers of highly effective types for their own and allied use, there was just one foreign design that the USAF still really wanted because it was clearly superior to anything they could manufacture for themselves - the De Havilland Mosquito.

Edited 19 July, 2013 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Whitey Grandad]

Thanks, I'll set my recorder for that. My dad was an LAC in Coastal Command during the war and was an instrument technician in Mosquitos as well as Beaufighters. The aircrew used to say that they preferred the Beaufighter going into the attack and the Mosquito on the way out.

[alpine_saint]

My favourite, favourite plane of all time. Gutted that you have to go to the US to see the only flying survivor (but at least there is now one, after a 13 year hiatus), though rumour has it that KA114 is up for sale already.

 

Really sad I wont get to see this programme - anyone got a DVD recorder and is willing to post me a DVD ? I will pay costs.

 

I cant watch the first 10minutes of 633 Squadron when they come back over the airfield without a stiffy..

[derry]

Whilst the bomber version was unarmed the fighter bomber was heavily armed with four .303 machine guns and four 20mm cannon in the nose. The aircraft did have a flaw that caused deaths. The single engine safety speed was a fair bit above the lift off speed and an engine failure at take off power before reaching this speed caused the aircraft to roll over. There was only three ways to counter it, hold it down and get to safety speed before an engine failure or if an engine fails either cut the other one and crash land straight ahead or reduce the power on the live engine sufficiently to keep control and try and nurse the speed up subject to the take off weight to the safety speed increasing the power as the speed increases provided the aircraft has enough height to allow.

[badgerx16]

During the latter stages of WWII when the mighty US aircraft industry was producing vast numbers of highly effective types for their own and allied use, there was just one foreign design that the USAF still really wanted because it was clearly superior to anything they could manufacture for themselves - the De Havilland Mosquito.

But even the P-51 Mustang only became effective once coupled to a Rolls Royce engine.

[Pugwash]

And the P-51 only came about from a British procurement specification.

 

Thanks for the heads up, will watch that. Anyone who's interested in the Mossie ought to visit the museum at Salisbury Hall, just off the M25 in Hertfordshire:

 

http://www.dehavillandmuseum.co.uk/

[Doctoroncall]

Thanks SP.

 

What was the jet plane we were building after WWII but had to stop otherwise the US would pull the plug on UK support aid? I remember my father saying it was an advanced plane which the yanks thought would take their military aviation trade away... or was he making it up?

[badgerx16]

thanks sp.

 

What was the jet plane we were building after wwii but had to stop otherwise the us would pull the plug on uk support aid? I remember my father saying it was an advanced plane which the yanks thought would take their military aviation trade away... Or was he making it up?

 

tsr2 ?

[Window Cleaner]

tsr2 ?

 

doubt it, that was much later, from about 1957 I think. The TSR had all sorts of problems and was eventually abandoned for budgetary reasons by the Wilson government. Couldn't even afford F111s instead and we had to make do with the old Buccaneers.

 

Alpine willl know though, he's the Jane's of the forum.

[lifeintheslowlane]

Some great video on YouTube...this is a recent restoration from New Zealand:

[video=youtube;H_-AsgYvF2o]

[alpine_saint]

Yep, thats KA114. First flew again at Ardmore, NZ (where there are several Mossies in various stages of restoration for return to flight, including one owned by a certain P. Allen) in autumn last year. Now based in Virginia, US owned by a bloke called Jerry Yeager who has an impressive private collection (now rumoured to be up for sale)

[dubai_phil]

Was lucky enough to see a Mossie at Boscombe Down Airshow many years ago, beautiful aircraft, and worringly find myself getting a stiffy at the same moment in a movie as Alps.

 

Buccaneer - The Flying Cement Mixer it was called at the Empire Test Pilot's training school - because if you had a flame out it had the aerodynamics of a well you get the point.

 

Great to see they are trying to get some flying again

[alpine_saint]

doubt it, that was much later, from about 1957 I think. The TSR had all sorts of problems and was eventually abandoned for budgetary reasons by the Wilson government. Couldn't even afford F111s instead and we had to make do with the old Buccaneers.

 

Alpine willl know though, he's the Jane's of the forum.

 

Avro 730 ?

Saunders-Roe SR53 ?

Saunders-Roe SR177 ?

 

The 1957 Defence White Paper more-or-less killed the British aircraft industry.

[Whitey Grandad]

My favourite, favourite plane of all time. Gutted that you have to go to the US to see the only flying survivor (but at least there is now one, after a 13 year hiatus), though rumour has it that KA114 is up for sale already.

 

Really sad I wont get to see this programme - anyone got a DVD recorder and is willing to post me a DVD ? I will pay costs.

 

I cant watch the first 10minutes of 633 Squadron when they come back over the airfield without a stiffy..

 

I can't promise anything but I'll see what I can do.

[Whitey Grandad]

And the P-51 only came about from a British procurement specification.

 

Thanks for the heads up, will watch that. Anyone who's interested in the Mossie ought to visit the museum at Salisbury Hall, just off the M25 in Hertfordshire:

 

http://www.dehavillandmuseum.co.uk/

 

When I visited that in the late 60s you could still climb into the cockpit.

[Window Cleaner]

Avro 730 ?

Saunders-Roe SR53 ?

Saunders-Roe SR177 ?

 

The 1957 Defence White Paper more-or-less killed the British aircraft industry.

 

 

Ah yes the dogma that ICBM's were the way to go.

[alpine_saint]

Ah yes the dogma that ICBM's were the way to go.

 

I actually thought the main tenet was that surface-to-air missiles were a better option for defence than interceptors. And that the Lightning (P1) only survivied because it was so advanced in its development.

 

Wasnt aware of the ICBM issue.

 

Blue Streak and Thor - wotta laff. Still fuelling and counting down 20mins after Soviet ICBMs have oblitterated them............

[View From The Top]

My uncle Denis was a mossie pilot in a pathfinder squadron. DFC with Bar.

[FloridaMarlin]

My old man was an airframe fitter on Mossies in the RAF during WWII. He was based on the Scottish island of Tiree.

 

Never really got round to asking him what squadron it was, or any details before he died three years ago.

[Truesaint]

Thanks SP.

 

What was the jet plane we were building after WWII but had to stop otherwise the US would pull the plug on UK support aid? I remember my father saying it was an advanced plane which the yanks thought would take their military aviation trade away... or was he making it up?

 

 

Think it was the Miles M52 would have been a contender for the first aircraft to break the soundbarrier. All the research was given to the americans including the all moving tailplane idea that was incorporated on the Bell X-1. This was one of the things that enabled the breaking of the barrier.

Watched the programme last night and was great to see the hosts face when he got to fly in the mossie.

[doubleonothing]

Will watch this. My grandfather flew Hurricanes and Wellingtons so I'm always interested to see something on WW2 RAF. don't know a huge amount amount about the Mossie so will be net resting o find out.

[OldNick]

Just been to a house and the widow there the husband was a Mosquito pilot. He was awarded the DFC . There were pictures of him by his mosquito and models all of the period on the walls and shelves. She said she had some aerial photos he took around somewhere, and that her grandson had a load of them but had ruined them.Such a shame that the younger generation do not appreciate history.

[alpine_saint]

What is it about the Rolls Royce Merlin that sounds just so goddam orgasmic, like a particularly long and juicy fanny fart ?

[OldNick]

I watched the programme last night and was disappointed. Not as enthralled as I hoped i would have been

[derry]

What is it about the Rolls Royce Merlin that sounds just so goddam orgasmic, like a particularly long and juicy fanny fart ?

 

One of my old instructors Nigel Kemp was a fighter pilot in Douglas Bader's 242 Squadron. He told me that the Merlin sounded like a bag of nails compared to the massive radial air cooled engine in the Thunderbolt he flew later in the war. He said the radial purred in comparison.

[alpine_saint]

One of my old instructors Nigel Kemp was a fighter pilot in Douglas Bader's 242 Squadron. He told me that the Merlin sounded like a bag of nails compared to the massive radial air cooled engine in the Thunderbolt he flew later in the war. He said the radial purred in comparison.

 

Horses for courses, I suppose.

[derry]

He didn't say anything critical about the Merlin. He did say that the Thunderbolt had a large cockpit with plenty of room and was relatively comfortable rather than the tight squeeze in the Hurricane and Spitfire. He did say that the liquid cooled Merlin was susceptible to radiator damage whereas the radial was able to absorb quite a lot of damage without overheating and seizing up. If you are really interested in the war, another instructor of mine Tony Liskutin wrote a really interesting book ( Challenge in the Air by M A Liskutin ), he still lives in Fareham. It tells the story of his early years in Czechoslovakia, escape from the Germans, joined French Air Force, then joined RAF, flew Spitfire until 1945, Spitfires and Me109s (Avia built) in Czech Air Force, imminent arrest by Communists, escape from Czechoslovakia, re-joined RAF, subsquently instructed at Hamble, Eastleigh and Zambia until retirement. Amazon have it in stock if you are interested. He introduced me to Ladislav Bezak the Zlin test pilot and world aerobatic champion that put his family in a Zlin and flew them out of Czechoslovakia to West Germany (another story).

Edited 24 July, 2013 by derry

[Saint in Paradise]

He didn't say anything critical about the Merlin. He did say that the Thunderbolt had a large cockpit with plenty of room and was relatively comfortable rather than the tight squeeze in the Hurricane and Spitfire. He did say that the liquid cooled Merlin was susceptible to radiator damage whereas the radial was able to absorb quite a lot of damage without overheating and seizing up. If you are really interested in the war, another instructor of mine Tony Liskutin wrote a really interesting book ( Challenge in the Air by M A Liskutin ), he still lives in Fareham. It tells the story of his early years in Czechoslovakia, escape from the Germans, joined French Air Force, then joined RAF, flew Spitfire until 1945, Spitfires and Me109s (Avia built) in Czech Air Force, imminent arrest by Communists, escape from Czechoslovakia, re-joined RAF, subsquently instructed at Hamble, Eastleigh and Zambia until retirement. Amazon have it in stock if you are interested. He introduced me to Ladislav Bezak the Zlin test pilot and world aerobatic champion that put his family in a Zlin and flew them out of Czechoslovakia to West Germany (another story).

 

 

Derry, Please post this story as I am sure a lot of us would love to read it.

 

.

[alpine_saint]

He didn't say anything critical about the Merlin. He did say that the Thunderbolt had a large cockpit with plenty of room and was relatively comfortable rather than the tight squeeze in the Hurricane and Spitfire. He did say that the liquid cooled Merlin was susceptible to radiator damage whereas the radial was able to absorb quite a lot of damage without overheating and seizing up. If you are really interested in the war, another instructor of mine Tony Liskutin wrote a really interesting book ( Challenge in the Air by M A Liskutin ), he still lives in Fareham. It tells the story of his early years in Czechoslovakia, escape from the Germans, joined French Air Force, then joined RAF, flew Spitfire until 1945, Spitfires and Me109s (Avia built) in Czech Air Force, imminent arrest by Communists, escape from Czechoslovakia, re-joined RAF, subsquently instructed at Hamble, Eastleigh and Zambia until retirement. Amazon have it in stock if you are interested. He introduced me to Ladislav Bezak the Zlin test pilot and world aerobatic champion that put his family in a Zlin and flew them out of Czechoslovakia to West Germany (another story).

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

The whole Merlin vs. radial engine debate is quite interesting. The ability of radials to take more damage than the liquid-cooled Merlin was really driven home when comparing the performance of BI/III Lancasters against BIIs. The Merlin-powered BI/IIIs could carry more and fly higher, but the Hercules-powered BIIs could take a bigger hammering when going in over the target.

[derry]

Thanks for the tip.

 

The whole Merlin vs. radial engine debate is quite interesting. The ability of radials to take more damage than the liquid-cooled Merlin was really driven home when comparing the performance of BI/III Lancasters against BIIs. The Merlin-powered BI/IIIs could carry more and fly higher, but the Hercules-powered BIIs could take a bigger hammering when going in over the target.

 

Following on from my post on Tony Liskutin, I found a piece in the Daily Express today (might be on the internet edition) showing Tony this week in the back of Carolyn Grace's two seat Spitfire in formation with the aircraft with his personal squadron registration on, in which he was shot down on D Day doing ground attacks, then force landed. The aircraft was recovered and is now based at Biggin Hill. Tony had a DFC and I'm sure an AFC, shot down 8 German aircraft and knowing him had a piece of a lot more. He dived a Spitfire past it's VNE and when checked he'd slightly swept the wings. I've seen photo's of battle damage, one bounced by a FW190 left a door size hole in the wing, with him showing his mates on landing. Another after shooting up a train he was so low on pulling up he hit the tops of some trees and left some big dents in the leading edges. After the war he was the designated Czech Air Force solo aerobatic display pilot in Spitfires but when changed to Me109Gs he tried to do the same display when he first tried out the aircraft, (nobody told him about the wing bolt weakness), when he landed an engineer came out and called him down to look at the wings which were on the point of falling off.

[derry]

[/b]

 

Derry, Please post this story as I am sure a lot of us would love to read it.

 

.

 

On 19th December 1971 Ladislav Bezak put his wife and four boys into the cockpit of his Zlin 226 two seater aerobatic trainer which he had built himself out of purchased parts. Because he was a qualified engineer, CSA pilot, 1960 World aerobatic champion, inventor of the Lomcevak manoeuvre he was allowed to keep the only private aircraft on the Czech registry. He set off and was located by radar, a Mig 15 was vectored on to him whilst still about 12 minutes from the West German border and safety. Even though it was illegal for the Czech Air Force to open fire on civilian aircraft, the Mig 15 made a number of attacks with cannons but through his skill as an aerobatic pilots he was able to anticipate the attacks and turn inside them. Eventually he landed in Nurmburg. He still has and flies the Zlin in displays whilst living in Canada.

[alpine_saint]

On 19th December 1971 Ladislav Bezak put his wife and four boys into the cockpit of his Zlin 226 two seater aerobatic trainer which he had built himself out of purchased parts. Because he was a qualified engineer, CSA pilot, 1960 World aerobatic champion, inventor of the Lomcevak manoeuvre he was allowed to keep the only private aircraft on the Czech registry. He set off and was located by radar, a Mig 15 was vectored on to him whilst still about 12 minutes from the West German border and safety. Even though it was illegal for the Czech Air Force to open fire on civilian aircraft, the Mig 15 made a number of attacks with cannons but through his skill as an aerobatic pilots he was able to anticipate the attacks and turn inside them. Eventually he landed in Nurmburg. He still has and flies the Zlin in displays whilst living in Canada.

 

Wow. Just goes to show what a skilled pilot can do. Jets used to be thought to be invincible against props.

 

So, did Hoagy Carmichael really down that Mig during the Korean War or not ?

[derry]

Wow. Just goes to show what a skilled pilot can do. Jets used to be thought to be invincible against props.

 

So, did Hoagy Carmichael really down that Mig during the Korean War or not ?

 

Interestingly, Bezak said that he had the advantage because at the time the fighter pilots were only flying about 40 hours a year. Probably the easiest way to knock a light aeroplane down with a jet would be to make a high speed close pass over the top of it and leave the vortices and jet wash to do the rest.

[Whitey Grandad]

Interestingly, Bezak said that he had the advantage because at the time the fighter pilots were only flying about 40 hours a year. Probably the easiest way to knock a light aeroplane down with a jet would be to make a high speed close pass over the top of it and leave the vortices and jet wash to do the rest.

 

I remember reading somewhere about a study the RAF did when they thought they might have to fight Spitfires in the Israeli Air Force with Lightnings. It was found to be difficult to shoot them down with heat-seeking missiles because of the small heat signature.

[alpine_saint]

So, finally got to see the Mossie programme last night (thanks Dad). An enjoyable hours viewing, if a bit gushing. Presenters excitement (at one point I thought he was going to faint) when he went up got to me too, shed a couple of tears myself.

 

Didnt know footage of the planes going over during Operation Jericho existed.

 

We really do need one of these planes flying on the UK/Europe air show circuit.

[jimpj]

I've read the very interesting posts on Nigel Kemp. I had the good fortune to fly with him at Eastleigh in Spring 1983 when I did a twin instructor's course on the Grumman Cougar. Nigel ran his own business called AFTS and gave a very good competent course of around 6 hours flying. I had no idea he was an RAF ace, although he did mention having EBGEs (Everybody's got 'em medals). He arranged for me to do my test with a CAFU examiner Capt. D.Stuart who did my test on his day off from Hurn (I flew the plane from Eastleigh to Hurn).

 

Anyway years later in 2000 I was working part-time for an outfit at Eastleigh called Carill Aviation and doing a bit of instruction and charter work on the Seneca III. I did the base check training and then the line training for a retired BA Jumbo captain, Capt. R.Smith, who wanted to do some flying with us. He was very pleasant to fly with and very competent indeed (no surprise there then). Apart from the big size difference he took the Seneca training in his stride. It turned out that he had done his degree at Imperial College and back then was a member of London University Air Squadron. After uni he enrolled on the graduate flying training course for BA as a cadet. During our flying together he was very interested to hear that I'd flown with Nigel Kemp and told me that he was a second world war star and had been awarded the DFC. He also told me that Nigel had been an instructor on London University Air Squadron when he was learning to fly with them.

 

I was lucky to fly with Nigel and thought he was a very decent sort.

[so22saint]

On 19th December 1971 Ladislav Bezak put his wife and four boys into the cockpit of his Zlin 226 two seater aerobatic trainer which he had built himself out of purchased parts. Because he was a qualified engineer, CSA pilot, 1960 World aerobatic champion, inventor of the Lomcevak manoeuvre he was allowed to keep the only private aircraft on the Czech registry. He set off and was located by radar, a Mig 15 was vectored on to him whilst still about 12 minutes from the West German border and safety. Even though it was illegal for the Czech Air Force to open fire on civilian aircraft, the Mig 15 made a number of attacks with cannons but through his skill as an aerobatic pilots he was able to anticipate the attacks and turn inside them. Eventually he landed in Nurmburg. He still has and flies the Zlin in displays whilst living in Canada.

 

What a brilliant story derry, made my evening

[so22saint]

Think it was the Miles M52 would have been a contender for the first aircraft to break the soundbarrier. All the research was given to the americans including the all moving tailplane idea that was incorporated on the Bell X-1. This was one of the things that enabled the breaking of the barrier.

Watched the programme last night and was great to see the hosts face when he got to fly in the mossie.

 

 

All research was given to the septics as part of a shared research program; that the yanks made top secret and cut us out of almost immediately. Special relationship my arse.

 

Before he became a total ****, it was amusing seeing Clarkson relate this to Chuck Yeager in his jet thing

[bristolsaint29]

My Grandfather who was from Southampton flew one of these during WW2, was only chatting to my father about it this weekend, he has his entire service history but know he was based in Burma at one point, got a couple of medals from the war as well. An amazing looking plane which is always a bit close to my heart.

[sadoldgit]

Will watch this. My grandfather flew Hurricanes and Wellingtons so I'm always interested to see something on WW2 RAF. don't know a huge amount amount about the Mossie so will be net resting o find out.

 

You have to feel for the Hurricane, the Paul McCartney to John Lennon's Spitfire. The Spitfire was the cool, sex, glamorous one but the Hurricane did more of the hard work and deserves as much if not more credit in the Battle of Britain.

[derry]

I've read the very interesting posts on Nigel Kemp. I had the good fortune to fly with him at Eastleigh in Spring 1983 when I did a twin instructor's course on the Grumman Cougar. Nigel ran his own business called AFTS and gave a very good competent course of around 6 hours flying. I had no idea he was an RAF ace, although he did mention having EBGEs (Everybody's got 'em medals). He arranged for me to do my test with a CAFU examiner Capt. D.Stuart who did my test on his day off from Hurn (I flew the plane from Eastleigh to Hurn).

 

Anyway years later in 2000 I was working part-time for an outfit at Eastleigh called Carill Aviation and doing a bit of instruction and charter work on the Seneca III. I did the base check training and then the line training for a retired BA Jumbo captain, Capt. R.Smith, who wanted to do some flying with us. He was very pleasant to fly with and very competent indeed (no surprise there then). Apart from the big size difference he took the Seneca training in his stride. It turned out that he had done his degree at Imperial College and back then was a member of London University Air Squadron. After uni he enrolled on the graduate flying training course for BA as a cadet. During our flying together he was very interested to hear that I'd flown with Nigel Kemp and told me that he was a second world war star and had been awarded the DFC. He also told me that Nigel had been an instructor on London University Air Squadron when he was learning to fly with them.

 

I was lucky to fly with Nigel and thought he was a very decent sort.

 

The Cougar belonged to a mate I flew it occasionally . It's now at the bottom of the channel. A PPL wanted to take it to Jersey on an IFR day and was refused entry permission so opted to fly around the Isle of Wight instead. Unfortunately he decided to fly at low level not far off the coast but the visibility was a goldfish bowl. He inadvertently descended and hit the sea and crashed. He got out ok but unfortunately the aircraft sank with his wife unable to get out. It was never found. If he had known about low flying he would have had a little nose up trim set so that the aircraft would climb rather than sink if his attention was outside.

 

Another part time instructor was Tony Farrell who was also at Hamble and flew Mosquitoes during the war. There was also another part timer, I can't remember his surname, Christian name Eric, owned a Garage at Stockbridge and flew Mosquitoes. There was another ex Hamble part timer Jim Collyer who was in the RAF at the start of the war, tragically killed when the tail came off the B707 freighter he was flying for Dan Air on the approach at Lusaka in 1976.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

My Grandfather who was from Southampton flew one of these during WW2, was only chatting to my father about it this weekend, he has his entire service history but know he was based in Burma at one point, got a couple of medals from the war as well. An amazing looking plane which is always a bit close to my heart.

 

Did your Grandfather ever mention the story I heard years ago that the glue holding de Haviland's famous 'wooden wonder' together, in the hot and humid conditions experienced in the Far East, would sometimes fail - with potential disastrous consequences?