Pro and Anti EU people.

[Barry Sanchez]

Or alternatively why do people vote for those who don't represent their opinion?

 

Ask that to a tory who's party stated they would give them just that? People will now defect and the Libby's and tories must be ****ting themselves.

 

There is also no alternative to what you really suggest, mp's should listen to their constituents, dont you agree?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Ask that to a tory who's party stated they would give them just that? People will now defect and the Libby's and tories must be ****ting themselves.

 

There is also no alternative to what you really suggest, mp's should listen to their constituents, dont you agree?

 

All the more reason for that Tory voter to switch to UKIP at the next election if said referendum has not been forthcoming.

[Barry Sanchez]

You have only answered where they should go, you have not answered whether the politician should listen to the views of the constituent?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

You have only answered where they should go, you have not answered whether the politician should listen to the views of the constituent?

 

Well you'd think it would be preferrable but utimately that's up to the politician and whether or not they want to improve their chances at getting re-elected.

[Barry Sanchez]

Well you'd think it would be preferrable but utimately that's up to the politician and whether or not they want to improve their chances at getting re-elected.

 

Yes or a No will be adequate, not on what a politician would or should do, on what you think or you could be mistaken for a stalling clown..........................

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Yes or a No will be adequate, not on what a politician would or should do, on what you think or you could be mistaken for a stalling clown..........................

 

I think my answer is pretty clear.

[Barry Sanchez]

I think my answer is pretty clear.

 

Yes or No?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Well you'd think it would be preferrable but utimately that's up to the politician and whether or not they want to improve their chances at getting re-elected.

[Barry Sanchez]

Well you'd think it would be preferrable but utimately that's up to the politician and whether or not they want to improve their chances at getting re-elected.

 

Stalling clown.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Stalling clown.

 

eh what's your problem? Are you too thick to understand what I was saying?

[Barry Sanchez]

You have merely rinsed and repeated what you have written earlier without stating yes or no what you want, preferable, are you a politician, Hulme has time on his hands.....................

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

You have merely rinsed and repeated what you have written earlier without stating yes or no what you want, preferable, are you a politician, Hulme has time on his hands.....................

 

You asked if MPs should listen to their constituents. I replied that it would be preferable if they did but it was up to MPs themselves. What more do you want?

[Barry Sanchez]

So I assume you would then like a vote on Europe as the majoity of the people want one, you respect democracy so therefore the mp's should give the constituents one?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

So I assume you would then like a vote on Europe as the majoity of the people want one, you respect democracy so therefore the mp's should give the constituents one?

 

This is going round in circles Dude so this is my last contribution unless things change tack: I personnally don't see the need for a referendum and think they should be kept to a minimum as I feel that the normal course of parliamentary democracy is sufficient.

[Barry Sanchez]

This is going round in circles Dude so this is my last contribution unless things change tack: I personnally don't see the need for a referendum and think they should be kept to a minimum as I feel that the normal course of parliamentary democracy is sufficient.

 

Thanks Chris/Dude, your sense of what democracy actually is and how it operates is very different to myself, the mp is a public servant no more no less, thats the role, it does the publics bidding, this is a very very important issue, so important we have a one issue party taking votes from the mainstream ones, you would of thought even for self preservation they would do what the public want.

 

Well unless they are talking to you Chris/dude.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

But referenda aren't perfect. They let MPs absolve themselves of responsibility and leadership and are open to abuse by passionate minority interest groups.

 

Who tf is Chris?

[Barry Sanchez]

But referenda aren't perfect. They let MPs absolve themselves of responsibility and leadership and are open to abuse by passionate minority interest groups.

 

Who tf is Chris?

 

Chris Hulme, why should we not hold responsibility ourselves, we elected them? They are accountable to us not themselves or big business, you vote for an mp and then forget for another 4 now 5 years, no need to turn on the news or read a paper as they all have it in hand.

 

There would be no u turns as people would not complain, there would be no inquiries as people would not read papers so journalists have no incentive to investigate corrupt mp's, apathy and complete faith in a politician is lazy, convenient and wrong in this instance, you are using it to try and justify your position on not letting the majority of the popualtion not having their say.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Chris Hulme, why should we not hold responsibility ourselves, we elected them? They are accountable to us not themselves or big business, you vote for an mp and then forget for another 4 now 5 years, no need to turn on the news or read a paper as they all have it in hand.

 

There would be no u turns as people would not complain, there would be no inquiries as people would not read papers so journalists have no incentive to investigate corrupt mp's, apathy and complete faith in a politician is lazy, convenient and wrong in this instance, you are using it to try and justify your position on not letting the majority of the popualtion not having their say.

 

You mean Chris HUHNE

 

I've already said that people should lobby and protest during electoral terms. Politicians are always trying to gage public opinion, often through the media, so democracy doesn't get suspended in between elections.

[Barry Sanchez]

You mean Chris HUHNE

 

I've already said that people should lobby and protest during electoral terms. Politicians are always trying to gage public opinion, often through the media, so democracy doesn't get suspended in between elections.

 

Sorry Chris, dont you mean gauge?

[Barry Sanchez]

But we digress, you will give an mp power to do as he/she wisehes for 5 years without having to listen to what people want in that time, things change over 5 years, this has been an issue for 20 years!

[Wes Tender]

We had a vote in 1974, and we live with the result. Why pick on EU membership for a review referendum, why not have a new poll on votes for women ? Or how about a return to the man with the red flag walking in front of cars ?

 

Your OP mentioned 'popular opinion', I'm not sure what the concensus is - I do know where the loudest shouting is coming from. What if the referendum was held and the vote was to stay in ? Would you want a series of recounts until you get the result you want ?

 

It appears to have escaped your notice that what we voted for in 1974 has changed rather substantially since and is virtually a different entity. What we voted for then was solely a trading alliance, which was why it was called the Common Market. Since then, because of the further Treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice, the entity has instead become a European Union embracing significant changes to our constitution and encompassing political, legal and foreign policy union.

 

If you're happy that these substantial changes do not need to be put to the electorate in another referendum, then fine, but that is not a position acceptable to a large percentage of the electorate who feel that the Governments of either party since, did not have a mandate to give away this sovereignty just because it was covered as one issue in a manifesto covering dozens of other policy proposals.

 

 

Frankly, your question about why there isn't pressure to revisit votes for women or whether a man should walk in front of cars carrying a red flag are absurd. Couldn't you come up with anything better? Is there pressure to have referenda on those issues that I seem to have missed?

 

If there was a referendum on our continued membership that returned a yes vote, then everybody would have to be content that the voting public had decided on that course of action and would abide by it. As in this case being discussed here, there would be no need for another referendum for as long as there were no significantly important further changes to our constitution.

 

All this talk earlier in the thread about our elected MPs being the only ones capable of deciding these things because Joe Public is as thick as two short planks is inflamatory rubbish and infers that most MPs are more intelligent than the average man in the street, when judging by the behaviour of some of them it is plainly not true.

[Barry Sanchez]

It appears to have escaped your notice that what we voted for in 1974 has changed rather substantially since and is virtually a different entity. What we voted for then was solely a trading alliance, which was why it was called the Common Market. Since then, because of the further Treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam and Nice, the entity has instead become a European Union embracing significant changes to our constitution and encompassing political, legal and foreign policy union.

 

If you're happy that these substantial changes do not need to be put to the electorate in another referendum, then fine, but that is not a position acceptable to a large percentage of the electorate who feel that the Governments of either party since, did not have a mandate to give away this sovereignty just because it was covered as one issue in a manifesto covering dozens of other policy proposals.

 

 

Frankly, your question about why there isn't pressure to revisit votes for women or whether a man should walk in front of cars carrying a red flag are absurd. Couldn't you come up with anything better? Is there pressure to have referenda on those issues that I seem to have missed?

 

If there was a referendum on our continued membership that returned a yes vote, then everybody would have to be content that the voting public had decided on that course of action and would abide by it. As in this case being discussed here, there would be no need for another referendum for as long as there were no significantly important further changes to our constitution.

 

All this talk earlier in the thread about our elected MPs being the only ones capable of deciding these things because Joe Public is as thick as two short planks is inflamatory rubbish and infers that most MPs are more intelligent than the average man in the street, when judging by the behaviour of some of them it is plainly not true.

 

 

Christ if me and Wes are on the same page something is up.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Sorry Chris, dont you mean gauge?

 

Bad luck Dude apparently the two variants are now interchangeable http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gauge

[aintforever]

The whole "we've already voted in 1974" argument is laughable, the Europe some, now very old, people voted for back then is nothing like the Europe we a saddled with today. When you see MPs come out with that argument they just look embarrassed. Why don't people just admit that the reason they don't want a referendum is because we would vote to get out?

[View From The Top]

The whole "we've already voted in 1974" argument is laughable, the Europe some, now very old, people voted for back then is nothing like the Europe we a saddled with today. When you see MPs come out with that argument they just look embarrassed. Why don't people just admit that the reason they don't want a referendum is because we would vote to get out?

 

Personally I think we should have a referendum but they whole "public opinion" routine that Tristrim spouts is boll.oxs as if we pandered to the court of public opinion then we'd have a referendum on capital punishment and castration for rapists before owt else.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Personally I think we should have a referendum but they whole "public opinion" routine that Tristrim spouts is boll.oxs as if we pandered to the court of public opinion then we'd have a referendum on capital punishment and castration for rapists before owt else.

 

Public opinion in the form of Ukip taking votes has forced Cameron to promise a vote on Europe. Public opinion in the form of Ukip topping the EU vote next year, and polling data will ensure labour include some sort of promise in their election manifesto. Public opinion is driving the establishments moves in a way opinion on hanging ECT never could.

[Barry Sanchez]

Personally I think we should have a referendum but they whole "public opinion" routine that Tristrim spouts is boll.oxs as if we pandered to the court of public opinion then we'd have a referendum on capital punishment and castration for rapists before owt else.

 

Really, I have never seen the capital punishment party doing well in the European elections?

Thats your opinion, fact is an awful lot (possibly more)of people want a referendum on the issue of Europe, stand aside, the winds of change are a happening.

[Barry Sanchez]

Personally I think we should have a referendum but they whole "public opinion" routine that Tristrim spouts is boll.oxs as if we pandered to the court of public opinion then we'd have a referendum on capital punishment and castration for rapists before owt else.

 

Do you agree with Scotland getting a vote on their future? No I suppose not.

[Wes Tender]

Christ if me and Wes are on the same page something is up.

Well, we were bound to agree about something sooner or later.

 

All of these drastic changes have been brought about by successive Governments without the electorate being able to vote on them. Promises have been made in election manifestos that

there will be a referendum, but then those promises have been broken. Governments claim that because they were elected, that they have a mandate for a basket of policies, Europe being just one of several dozen covering a wide selection of other issues. And yet many vote because of the party colours, or because one or more issues that they feel important are supported by one party, so they will vote for them. There has been too little to choose between the parties on Europe and in any event they might not wish to vote for the party taking their approved stand on Europe because they disagree with the politics of that party in other areas. In other words, the system does not allow the public to vote exclusively on this one very important area. Therefore a referendum is the only fair and realistic solution.

 

MPs are scared stiff of allowing a referendum because they know that currently we would vote to leave. But thankfully because UKIP is effectively a one issue party offering the electorate a say on this, if they gain the most votes in the European Elections next year, they will force the other parties to review their positions or face electoral anihilation in the next General Election.

[scotty]

Bad luck Dude apparently the two variants are now interchangeable http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gauge

 

All Hail the new MLG!!!!

[View From The Top]

Do you agree with Scotland getting a vote on their future? No I suppose not.

 

Since the majority of them voted for a party which had it at the core of their politics then of course they should have a referendum.

[scotty]

Well, we were bound to agree about something sooner or later.

 

All of these drastic changes have been brought about by successive Governments without the electorate being able to vote on them. Promises have been made in election manifestos that

there will be a referendum, but then those promises have been broken. Governments claim that because they were elected, that they have a mandate for a basket of policies, Europe being just one of several dozen covering a wide selection of other issues. And yet many vote because of the party colours, or because one or more issues that they feel important are supported by one party, so they will vote for them. There has been too little to choose between the parties on Europe and in any event they might not wish to vote for the party taking their approved stand on Europe because they disagree with the politics of that party in other areas. In other words, the system does not allow the public to vote exclusively on this one very important area. Therefore a referendum is the only fair and realistic solution.

 

MPs are scared stiff of allowing a referendum because they know that currently we would vote to leave. But thankfully because UKIP is effectively a one issue party offering the electorate a say on this, if they gain the most votes in the European Elections next year, they will force the other parties to review their positions or face electoral anihilation in the next General Election.

 

 

O'rly? They know its an empty promise, because there's no way in hell we would vote to leave. All three major parties campaigning against it?? any of which would take whatever steps were necessary to avoid it once elected, not a cat in hell's chance. And the country isn't going to elect UKIP any time soon.

[View From The Top]

Really, I have never seen the capital punishment party doing well in the European elections?

Thats your opinion, fact is an awful lot (possibly more)of people want a referendum on the issue of Europe, stand aside, the winds of change are a happening.

 

What part of "personally I think we should have a referendum" do you not understand Tris'?

 

However, it's not, IMHO, driven by the public but by tory MPs scared of losing their seats.

[Barry Sanchez]

What part of "personally I think we should have a referendum" do you not understand Tris'?

 

However, it's not, IMHO, driven by the public but by tory MPs scared of losing their seats.

 

Sorry Mavis must of missed where you wrote that.

[Wes Tender]

O'rly? They know its an empty promise, because there's no way in hell we would vote to leave. All three major parties campaigning against it?? any of which would take whatever steps were necessary to avoid it once elected, not a cat in hell's chance. And the country isn't going to elect UKIP any time soon.

 

Your opinion and entitled to it, of course. UKIP aren't going to be elected to form the Government any time soon, but before the next General Election there are the European Elections. As they are effectively a one policy party and that policy is to leave the EU, if UKIP gain a substantial number of MEPs, that will concentrate the minds of our MPs of all parties wonderfully. I expect them to emerge as the party with the biggest number of MEPs, Eurosceptic to a man.

 

And I don't agree for one minute that all three parties would be campaigning against leaving. Following a really good showing by UKIP in the European Elections, pressure will be on parties to adopt a fall-back position, that the British electorate if they voted to leave the EU in a referendum, might be pursuaded to remain in Europe solely as part of a trading partnership, such as that which we originally joined under Ted Heath's Government. If the main parties attempted to whitewash over the electorate's clear signal that they wanted to leave the EU, the General Election would probably find UKIP with as many seats as the other main parties, producing another hung parliament with them holding the whip hand.

 

So the position that the main parties adopt on Europe following a substantial vote for UKIP in the preceding European Elections is key to how they will campaign in a referendum. My suspicion would be that a direct YES to leaving, or NO to leaving choice would see a victory for the YES campaign, whereas an intermediate option to stay in, but solely as part of a renegotiated trading agreement and nothing else, is the best hope against a vote to leave.