Pro and Anti EU people.

[Barry Sanchez]

Some of the left simply cant or wont believe there are people of a socialist persuasion that are anti EU.

They are naive babies.

[SuperMikey]

Yes, we should characterise all people of a certain political persuasion as "naive".

 

Nice to have you back btw Dune.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Some of the left simply cant or wont believe there are people of a socialist persuasion that are anti EU.

They are naive babies.

 

I think most sensible people from the left and right understand that the EU crosses party divides. Yes, the majority of anti's tend to lean to the right, but there are many from the left including some union bosses and the leftie hero Benn, who want to withdraw. Like the referendum in the 70's I'm sure people from the same parties will be campaigning on opposite sides.

 

I just find the arguement put forward by our resident Tory basher that Bill Cash and "his ilk" leave the Tory party and join Ukip, as well as stating that "any anti European in the labour party should defect to Ukip" laughable.

[TopGun]

The Localism Bill originally had provision for local referendums to take place should 5% of the voting population within a local authority sign a petition demanding one. It was dropped after concerns from local authorities that the public could not be trusted enough to be responsible. The fear was that the public would consistently refuse necessary local developments such as new power stations, water treatment works, waste transfer stations etc, housing developments etc. The general public cannot be trusted with a referendum vote in most cases IMO.

[alpine_saint]

No, sometimes the patient doesn't know what's good for them. I'd rather that the politicians we elect do what we pay them for.

 

The public are too stupid to comprehend the pluses and minuses that inevitably exist in any decision.

 

 

Superb. I love this arrogant patronising attitude. It labels people for the Socialist losers they really are.

 

Some countries have the right to referenda enshrined in their constitutions. A petition of over a certaion number of signatures automatically tirggers a legally-biniding referendum. Not Britain, of course.

 

We have a quite old version of democracy, and for the large part it works. But it aint perfect.

[alpine_saint]

Where is there a denial of democracy? The democratic process allows us to vote for a party that backs a referendum. That's how it works.

 

If he were to have a referendum on subjects that there is overwhelming public support then the death penalty would be top of the list.

 

The fact that its been promised several times and never delivered ?

 

The fact that the coallition is going on about it again, with no intention of delivering, just to head off the major threat to the cosy 3 party system that UKIP represent ?

[solentstars]

The fact that its been promised several times and never delivered ?

 

The fact that the coallition is going on about it again, with no intention of delivering, just to head off the major threat to the cosy 3 party system that UKIP represent ?

and that is why the one issue politicians who want us out of eu should defect to ukip on a point of honest principles rather than a cosy sect in a political party with a job for life..just imagine bill cash,nadine norris,katie hoey and a group of 20-30 mps would give ukip a massive boost .unfortunately most of this forum are more interested in

[h=1]Victor Wanyamas Move.[/h]

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

You have never heard of the extreme left?

 

yes, I was just wondering what relevance they had to anything in my post, upon which you were commenting, or indeed any post on this thread.

[Lord Duckhunter]

and that is why the one issue politicians who want us out of eu should defect to ukip on a point of honest principles rather than a cosy sect in a political party with a job for life..just imagine bill cash,nadine norris,katie hoey and a group of 20-30 mps would give ukip a massive boost .unfortunately most of this forum are more interested in

[h=1]Victor Wanyamas Move.[/h]

 

Are you still peddling this nonsense?

 

It is entirely reasonable to be a member of the Tory party and want to leave the EU, just as Tony benn wants to leave but remains a labour man through and through. You really need to think before you post' your hatred of the tory right is clouding your judgement and making you look like a fool. Kate hoey has as much right to be in the labour party as red ed. What about mark serwotka, should he leave the party?

[buctootim]

If we were to leave the EU we would need to negotiate some kind of access agreement with them otherwise UK goods and services would suffer horribly. Those goods and services would need to comply with EU law and standards. Nothing would change, except we would have no say and no right of veto in the formulation of the those laws.

 

Yes we would be able to control immigration from within the EU, but what would the benefits be? The reason the UK has such low unemployment despite a recession worse than the 1930s is that many workers who came to the UK when we had jobs going spare have gone home again when we dont - the perfect fluid workforce who come in when you have spare capacity but you don't have to pay for when you don't. The alternative is permanent immigration from outside Europe - dont kid yourself that wouldn't happen, industry lobbying would ensure it does .

 

If we left I really don't see anything much changing in practice, except we'd exchange being a difficult club member for being a powerless outsider living with rules dictated to us.

[Barry Sanchez]

yes, I was just wondering what relevance they had to anything in my post, upon which you were commenting, or indeed any post on this thread.

 

Every person who veers to the extreme left has more love for Europe than they do their own Nation, most extreme left persons hate this Country and all its traditions, you can also take that to the bank.

[Barry Sanchez]

If we were to leave the EU we would need to negotiate some kind of access agreement with them otherwise UK goods and services would suffer horribly. Those goods and services would need to comply with EU law and standards. Nothing would change, except we would have no say and no right of veto in the formulation of the those laws.

 

Yes we would be able to control immigration from within the EU, but what would the benefits be? The reason the UK has such low unemployment despite a recession worse than the 1930s is that many workers who came to the UK when we had jobs going spare have gone home again when we dont - the perfect fluid workforce who come in when you have spare capacity but you don't have to pay for when you don't. The alternative is permanent immigration from outside Europe - dont kid yourself that wouldn't happen, industry lobbying would ensure it does .

 

If we left I really don't see anything much changing in practice, except we'd exchange being a difficult club member for being a powerless outsider living with rules dictated to us.

 

 

If Northern Ireland joined the South they would/will be far poorer, do you think they shouldn't have the vote when the time comes and do you think they shouldn't vote for as they would be poorer?

Edited 11 July, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Barry Sanchez]

If we were to leave the EU we would need to negotiate some kind of access agreement with them otherwise UK goods and services would suffer horribly. Those goods and services would need to comply with EU law and standards. Nothing would change, except we would have no say and no right of veto in the formulation of the those laws.

 

Yes we would be able to control immigration from within the EU, but what would the benefits be? The reason the UK has such low unemployment despite a recession worse than the 1930s is that many workers who came to the UK when we had jobs going spare have gone home again when we dont - the perfect fluid workforce who come in when you have spare capacity but you don't have to pay for when you don't. The alternative is permanent immigration from outside Europe - dont kid yourself that wouldn't happen, industry lobbying would ensure it does .

 

If we left I really don't see anything much changing in practice, except we'd exchange being a difficult club member for being a powerless outsider living with rules dictated to us.

 

Again, thats completely moot, your opinion and a denial of offering someone a vote because its not what you agree with, the extreme left are sounding for fascist every moment.

[Minty]

Again, thats completely moot, your opinion and a denial of offering someone a vote because its not what you agree with, the extreme left are sounding for fascist every moment.

 

Just to be clear, are you calling buctootim 'extreme left'?!?

[Barry Sanchez]

No I'm not calling anyone anything, that statement sounded like it would come out of Wolfie Smith's mouth, a soft excuse for us mere afflicted not to get a vote which is our right.

[solentstars]

If we were to leave the EU we would need to negotiate some kind of access agreement with them otherwise UK goods and services would suffer horribly. Those goods and services would need to comply with EU law and standards. Nothing would change, except we would have no say and no right of veto in the formulation of the those laws.

 

Yes we would be able to control immigration from within the EU, but what would the benefits be? The reason the UK has such low unemployment despite a recession worse than the 1930s is that many workers who came to the UK when we had jobs going spare have gone home again when we dont - the perfect fluid workforce who come in when you have spare capacity but you don't have to pay for when you don't. The alternative is permanent immigration from outside Europe - dont kid yourself that wouldn't happen, industry lobbying would ensure it does .

 

If we left I really don't see anything much changing in practice, except we'd exchange being a difficult club member for being a powerless outsider living with rules dictated to us.

 

Agree and we would still have to follow European rules outside the Eu but have no say in any of the rules which will as effect US .I prefer to live in the real world rather than a fantasy view of the past.people forget when we joined the Eu we were one of the poorest countries had poor productivity.quality standards were poor and tariffs on car imports etc and have benefited enormously from investment since then .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[alpine_saint]

If we were to leave the EU we would need to negotiate some kind of access agreement with them otherwise UK goods and services would suffer horribly. Those goods and services would need to comply with EU law and standards. Nothing would change, except we would have no say and no right of veto in the formulation of the those laws.

 

Yes we would be able to control immigration from within the EU, but what would the benefits be? The reason the UK has such low unemployment despite a recession worse than the 1930s is that many workers who came to the UK when we had jobs going spare have gone home again when we dont - the perfect fluid workforce who come in when you have spare capacity but you don't have to pay for when you don't. The alternative is permanent immigration from outside Europe - dont kid yourself that wouldn't happen, industry lobbying would ensure it does .

 

If we left I really don't see anything much changing in practice, except we'd exchange being a difficult club member for being a powerless outsider living with rules dictated to us.

 

Its a good argument. But the nature of the EU is rotten to the core, is interfering in areas that dont concern it, and due to self-interest not many are psuhing to reform.

 

Leaving the EU is going to be a major culture and economic shock, without a doubt. But it feels a bit like having chemo to cure cancer (apologies to anyone with loved ones suffering from cancer, I couldnt think of a better analogy...)

 

The EU is current form is going to end in tears anyway...

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Every person who veers to the extreme left has more love for Europe than they do their own Nation, most extreme left persons hate this Country and all its traditions, you can also take that to the bank.

 

Apart from being utter tripe what has any of this got to do with me or my post in which I mentioned that I wasn't generally in favour of referenda?

 

Are you suggesting that everyone on this thread who doesn't agree with an EU in-out referendum is automatically of the extreme left? Your POVs are increasingly more childish in their lack of nuance. The only political group that has been consistently pro-EU have been those towards the political centre. Maybe you should send Ken Clarke a memo telling him that he's now of the extreme left.

[Barry Sanchez]

Apart from being utter tripe what has any of this got to do with me or my post in which I mentioned that I wasn't generally in favour of referenda?

 

Are you suggesting that everyone on this thread who doesn't agree with an EU in-out referendum is automatically of the extreme left? Your POVs are increasingly more childish in their lack of nuance. The only political group that has been consistently pro-EU have been those towards the political centre. Maybe you should send Ken Clarke a memo telling him that he's now of the extreme left.

 

He is of his party, never a true tory, you can call my posts what you want thats your right, you are simply advocating denying a rightful vote because you dont like the risk nor the possible outcome, thats very open minded...............................

[Barry Sanchez]

Agree and we would still have to follow European rules outside the Eu but have no say in any of the rules which will as effect US .I prefer to live in the real world rather than a fantasy view of the past.people forget when we joined the Eu we were one of the poorest countries had poor productivity.quality standards were poor and tariffs on car imports etc and have benefited enormously from investment since then .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

You forget we sent New Zealand nearly bankrupt, we stabbed them in the back for closer persons who do it now every day for £Billions a year.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

He is of his party, never a true tory, you can call my posts what you want thats your right, you are simply advocating denying a rightful vote because you dont like the risk nor the possible outcome, thats very open minded...............................

 

You're right, it's not particularly open minded but then it's my view that you elect MPs and let them decided policy. If you want to influence them then write them letters, protest, lobby etc but don't expect a referendum.

 

Are you conceding that this doesn't make me of the extreme left?

[Barry Sanchez]

You're right, it's not particularly open minded but then it's my view that you elect MPs and let them decided policy. If you want to influence them then write them letters, protest, lobby etc but don't expect a referendum.

 

Are you conceding that this doesn't make me of the extreme left?

 

No not at all, you are simply hiding behind a wall, a simplistic guise, why vote at all? Should there ever be by-elections?

[solentstars]

Its a good argument. But the nature of the EU is rotten to the core, is interfering in areas that dont concern it, and due to self-interest not many are psuhing to reform.

 

Leaving the EU is going to be a major culture and economic shock, without a doubt. But it feels a bit like having chemo to cure cancer (apologies to anyone with loved ones suffering from cancer, I couldnt think of a better analogy...)

 

The EU is current form is going to end in tears anyway...

 

Got to admire what you posted and are the first poster who admits that it would have a major economic and culture shock has most posters who want us out seem to think it's so easy and painless.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[buctootim]

Its a good argument. But the nature of the EU is rotten to the core, is interfering in areas that dont concern it, and due to self-interest not many are psuhing to reform.

 

Leaving the EU is going to be a major culture and economic shock, without a doubt. But it feels a bit like having chemo to cure cancer (apologies to anyone with loved ones suffering from cancer, I couldnt think of a better analogy...)

 

The EU is current form is going to end in tears anyway...

 

People like to characterise the EU as some sprawling monster - but in reality its tiny. Only around 1.1% of members taxation goes to it and 98.9% stays with national governments. Total budget is just over £100bn spread between 27 countries, less than the UK alone spends on health. Yes its a bit dysfunctional, but thats pretty much inevitable trying to get 27 separate interests to agree on anything. Yes the euro is probably doomed, but we weren't forced to join and may well benefit from its problems.

 

I don't know your situation Alpine but I do know you are a Brit living and working in Austria. Havent you benefited directly from the EU?

[Barry Sanchez]

Got to admire what you posted and are the first poster who admits that it would have a major economic and culture shock has most posters who want us out seem to think it's so easy and painless.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

Who has said that? A principle can not be bought, never knew the extreme left valued money so much?

 

A denial of democracy is what this is about, not the possible result, the advocates of this denial might as well go and live in Syria, it seems it their form of democracy..............

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

No not at all, you are simply hiding behind a wall, a simplistic guise, why vote at all? Should there ever be by-elections?

 

So I am of the extreme left then? So your definition of whether or not someone is extreme left is based on their view of referenda? Nothing to do with how to manage the economy, ownership of the means of production, workers rights etc etc.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Who has said that? A principle can not be bought, never knew the extreme left valued money so much?

 

A denial of democracy is what this is about, not the possible result, the advocates of this denial might as well go and live in Syria, it seems it their form of democracy..............

 

Have you got some form of tourettes?

[Barry Sanchez]

Not that I am aware of, have you? Any guidance?

[buctootim]

Just to be clear, are you calling buctootim 'extreme left'?!?

 

Amused me too

[alpine_saint]

People like to characterise the EU as some sprawling monster - but in reality its tiny. Only around 1.1% of members taxation goes to it and 98.9% stays with national governments. Total budget is just over £100bn spread between 27 countries, less than the UK alone spends on health. Yes its a bit dysfunctional, but thats pretty much inevitable trying to get 27 separate interests to agree on anything. Yes the euro is probably doomed, but we weren't forced to join and may well benefit from its problems.

 

I don't know your situation Alpine but I do know you are a Brit living and working in Austria. Havent you benefited directly from the EU?

 

The problem with the EU is the same as the problems with the NHS, in principle; its responsibilities and activity has spread far beyond its original remit without enough institutional reform to enable the extra scope to be managed efficiently.

 

Yes, I have benefitted from the EU - massively. In terms of health care, education, employment, safety and security. But I can see its problems, and the indigenous people of Austria are not over-enamoured with the EU either. In fact, the one area of agreement between the UK and Austrian governments is over EU expansion and immigration.

 

I really think the Lisbon Treaty was a mistake, and possibly Maastricht too. the EU should have remained a free trade zone, and what is going on now is purely political ideaology.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Not that I am aware of, have you? Any guidance?

 

I'm just trying to understand your bizarre scatter-gun labelling of people and vitriolic black and white opinionating.

[solentstars]

Who has said that? A principle can not be bought, never knew the extreme left valued money so much?

 

A denial of democracy is what this is about, not the possible result, the advocates of this denial might as well go and live in Syria, it seems it their form of democracy..............

 

Extreme left ha ha I never guessed you were a commie but not surprised .at least you come out now.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Barry Sanchez]

I'm just trying to understand your bizarre scatter-gun labelling of people and vitriolic black and white opinionating.

 

Labelling, classy, are you denying an in-out vote?

 

Its thats simple, I have not even stated I am pro or anti European,againits thats simple, you appear to live in a ****hole, dont act like it with insults.................

[buctootim]

The problem with the EU is the same as the problems with the NHS, in principle; its responsibilities and activity has spread far beyond its original remit without enough institutional reform to enable the extra scope to be managed efficiently.

 

Yes, I have benefitted from the EU - massively. In terms of health care, education, employment, safety and security. But I can see its problems, and the indigenous people of Austria are not over-enamoured with the EU either. In fact, the one area of agreement between the UK and Austrian governments is over EU expansion and immigration.

 

I really think the Lisbon Treaty was a mistake, and possibly Maastricht too. the EU should have remained a free trade zone, and what is going on now is purely political ideaology.

 

I agree there is a significant Federalist element which I don't support. The trick is to get balance right, enabling things which make sense - eg common standards for goods and services, trade negotiations as a bloc, movement of labour etc without eroding national identity and morphing everybody into pan European sameness. I also think there has been over expansion.

It is possible to successfully be broad and shallow (lots of members light touch) or narrow and deeper (smaller core group of countries with more in common) but not broad and deep - and if the Federalists continue to push for it I think the reverse will happen - Europe will break apart again.

[Barry Sanchez]

Extreme left ha ha I never guessed you were a commie but not surprised .at least you come out now.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

Centre ground if you must know solent, had you down as a rabid anti Government conspiracist theory guy living in the shed.........................

[buctootim]

Barry, you're the only person on this thread coming across as rabid.

[Barry Sanchez]

Barry, you're the only person on this thread coming across as rabid.

 

Rabid for the people to have their say, whats wrong with that?

[alpine_saint]

I agree there is a significant Federalist element which I don't support. The trick is to get balance right, enabling things which make sense - eg common standards for goods and services, trade negotiations as a bloc, movement of labour etc without eroding national identity and morphing everybody into pan European sameness. I also think there has been over expansion.

It is possible to successfully be broad and shallow (lots of members light touch) or narrow and deeper (smaller core group of countries with more in common) but not broad and deep - and if the Federalists continue to push for it I think the reverse will happen - Europe will break apart again.

 

I completely agree, but dogma seems to have taken the place of common sense. I sense if anything the pace of federalism is increasing due to he economic problems. Its hard to really gauge from the UK or Central Europe how much the Greeks really resent what they see as the bullying behaviour of the German government, for example.

[Barry Sanchez]

I completely agree, but dogma seems to have taken the place of common sense. I sense if anything the pace of federalism is increasing due to he economic problems. Its hard to really gauge from the UK or Central Europe how much the Greeks really resent what they see as the bullying behaviour of the German government, for example.

 

The rise of Golden Dawn says a lot to what the Greeks are thinking.

Edited 11 July, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Labelling, classy, are you denying an in-out vote?

 

Its thats simple, I have not even stated I am pro or anti European,againits thats simple, you appear to live in a ****hole, dont act like it with insults.................

 

Lol you implore me not to use insults after telling me I live in a ****-hole. you're a clown.

[buctootim]

I completely agree, but dogma seems to have taken the place of common sense. I sense if anything the pace of federalism is increasing due to he economic problems. Its hard to really gauge from the UK or Central Europe how much the Greeks really resent what they see as the bullying behaviour of the German government, for example.

 

Also in Spain. France is having a crisis of confidence as reality the 'modele Francais' comes under pressure. I wouldnt be surprised to see some kind of deeper pact between France and Germany with most other memebers falling back into a looser grouping.

[Barry Sanchez]

Lol you implore me not to use insults after telling me I live in a ****-hole. you're a clown.

 

Irony, so you dont believe in principle that the people of this Country should be given a vote in whether its in Europe or out of it? You can answer the question you know.

[Barry Sanchez]

Also in Spain. France is having a crisis of confidence as reality the 'modele Francais' comes under pressure. I wouldnt be surprised to see some kind of deeper pact between France and Germany with most other memebers falling back into a looser grouping.

 

France has simply delayed the pain whilst others have started it already, they wont know whats hit them when the cuts start.

Two tier states, who decides that? Will it be rigged like the original entry?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Irony, so you dont believe in principle that the people of this Country should be given a vote in whether its in Europe or out of it? You can answer the question you know.

 

I've already answered the question ages ago in this thread. I don't think we need a referendum. If people feel strongly enough about leaving Europe they should vote UKIP at the General Election.

[solentstars]

Barry, you're the only person on this thread coming across as rabid.

 

Agree I think he's in his shed feeding his pigeon and reading his commie books:)

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Barry Sanchez]

I've already answered the question ages ago in this thread. I don't think we need a referendum. If people feel strongly enough about leaving Europe they should vote UKIP at the General Election.

 

Why should someone change political party? The tories promised one? The Unions have many sceptics in their ranks? With a Liberal you know you are getting Europe.

 

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/123776

[Barry Sanchez]

Agree I think he's in his shed feeding his pigeon and reading his commie books:)

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Solent, you have changed your tune, you have called me right wing before now, make up your mind.

[solentstars]

I've already answered the question ages ago in this thread. I don't think we need a referendum. If people feel strongly enough about leaving Europe they should vote UKIP at the General Election.

yep agree that democracy in action. if you want out don't vote Tory Labour or liberal. you know it makes sense.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Barry Sanchez]

yep agree that democracy in action. if you want out don't vote Tory Labour or liberal. you know it makes sense.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

All mainstream political parties are pro European and yet 56% of the electorate want to leave Europe, democracy in full action, why dont the MP's represent their constituents views?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/17/eu-referendum-poll

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

All mainstream political parties are pro European and yet 56% of the electorate want to leave Europe, democracy in full action, why dont the MP's represent their constituents views?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/17/eu-referendum-poll

 

Or alternatively why do people vote for those who don't represent their opinion?