Inexperience in the Transfer Market

[S-Clarke]

lol, jeez.

[Smirking_Saint]

Lol, and Blakey was calling TijTim a poor poster the other day, your incredible nipper you really are.

 

FWIW I have heard there is a certain amount of inexperience, its not necessarily from a players or transfer fees POV but NC seems to have a bee in his bonnet over agents. Now, most of us woukd agree that we woukd rather not pay the greedy bastards anything, but in reality you have to. Its hard to buy a house without estate agents etc NC will learn eventually.

 

Its different to last season though, last season we wasted a lot of time chasing players that had no intention of joining. I think we are making progress on a few, lets not panic though, most deals take a lot of time. Very few teams have done much if anything so far, you have holidays, internationals and tge fact that you have to pay players for nothing if done early, none of this helps.

[Smirking_Saint]

Lol, and Blakey was calling TijTim a poor poster the other day, your incredible nipper you really are.

 

FWIW I have heard there is a certain amount of inexperience, its not necessarily from a players or transfer fees POV but NC seems to have a bee in his bonnet over agents. Now, most of us woukd agree that we woukd rather not pay the greedy bastards anything, but in reality you have to. Its hard to buy a house without estate agents etc NC will learn eventually.

 

Its different to last season though, last season we wasted a lot of time chasing players that had no intention of joining. I think we are making progress on a few, lets not panic though, most deals take a lot of time. Very few teams have done much if anything so far, you have holidays, internationals and tge fact that you have to pay players for nothing if done early, none of this helps.

[hypochondriac]

Lovren and Ramirez suggest that some will. Yes, alot won't like the lack of agent fee on offer and we'll get a lot of rejections but some deals for big players will go through imo. Just a question of patience and sticking to your principles. Which I think Cortese will do. If more chairmen took Cortese's approach to agent fees football would be better off!

 

Both Lovren and Ramirez had question marks over them. Quite a few of the players we have been linked with are a step up from these two and that was the market I was referring to.

[hypochondriac]

Lol, and Blakey was calling TijTim a poor poster the other day, your incredible nipper you really are.

 

FWIW I have heard there is a certain amount of inexperience, its not necessarily from a players or transfer fees POV but NC seems to have a bee in his bonnet over agents. Now, most of us woukd agree that we woukd rather not pay the greedy bastards anything, but in reality you have to. Its hard to buy a house without estate agents etc NC will learn eventually.

 

Its different to last season though, last season we wasted a lot of time chasing players that had no intention of joining. I think we are making progress on a few, lets not panic though, most deals take a lot of time. Very few teams have done much if anything so far, you have holidays, internationals and tge fact that you have to pay players for nothing if done early, none of this helps.

 

Hmm. The evidence doesn't really bear that view out thus far. Obviously still time to change though.

[Dig Dig]

What do you mean by question marks over them?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Now, most of us woukd agree that we woukd rather not pay the greedy bastards anything, but in reality you have to. Its hard to buy a house without estate agents etc NC will learn eventually.

 

I am not so sure about that. Agents are important in football, I absolutely agree with that. If a club contacts them to find them a player and they do the legwork and get the ball rolling then they are fulfilled a great role. Likewise, if a club contacts the agent of one of their own players and asks him to find his client a new club they have again provided a service. But if Saints are identifying players independent of agents, and contact their club directly, what is the players agent doing for Saints that would necessitate a massive payment? The agent has provided a service to his client in wage negotiations so any payment should come from him. An agent should be able to tangibly prove what they have done for any payment and if they can then they should be able to charge a fee. To demand payment for doing nothing and be so powerful over your client that you influence whether they sign or not because you want money is ludicrous and I am pretty sure it doesn't happen in any other sport.

 

I've no doubt we've missed out on players because of it and whilst it may seem strange at times to be so willing to pay large transfer fees and wages but not pay agents much I am not so sure Cortese will back down. We invest massive amounts of money in our scouting and network and a benefit of that is being able to manoeuvre around the market without the need to engage agents. I can understand why Cortese may refuse to pay agents money for doing nothing.

 

They'll be a shift in where money goes in football soon. The FFP rules were generated as much to stop all the money in the game ending up in players and agents pockets as it was to safeguard the future of clubs. There will of course be those clubs who pay agents a lot (you only have to look at the published tables each year to see who they are) but there are so many players about that we aren't massively restricting our options in the market. It just means we may miss out on some players - but it happens all the time and for reasons other than agents fees as well.

[S-Clarke]

Both Lovren and Ramirez had question marks over them. Quite a few of the players we have been linked with are a step up from these two and that was the market I was referring to.

 

Not sure what question marks Ramirez has over him at the time? He was courted by big clubs all summer, yet we came from nowhere and snared him.

 

He had a bit of an up and down season, and frustrated the hell out of me at times, however he has undoubted quality. He just needs to learn and start making the right calls when it matters.

[Smirking_Saint]

Well if that is the case (and of course it is speculation) then it is possibly still inexperience to think we can sign all these top players and yet pay the agents nothing. It is pointless going for players and then not paying agents the going rate as they will not be coming here.

 

Unfortunately this is it, lets get this straight, I dont want to be paying loads to agents, but, thats how transfers work.

[hypochondriac]

Not sure what question marks Ramirez has over him at the time? He was courted by big clubs all summer, yet we came from nowhere and snared him.

 

He had a bit of an up and down season, and frustrated the hell out of me at times, however he has undoubted quality. He just needs to learn and start making the right calls when it matters.

 

Still young and unproven IMO. I accept that is up for debate though.

[S-Clarke]

Unfortunately this is it, lets get this straight, I dont want to be paying loads to agents, but, thats how transfers work.

 

Very true, if you want the big players everyone else wants....then you need to pay lots of different people a nice little cut. Welcome to the modern world of football.

 

No more signing the likes of Richardson and Chaplow!

[hypochondriac]

What do you mean by question marks over them?

 

From the accounts I have read, Lovren was fourth choice centre back and had a very poor season last year making the most amount of mistakes for a CB just ahead of Jos. I'm sure he will be a step up from the likes of Jos but he isn't an undisputed top class signing like some of the others we have been linked with.

[S-Clarke]

Still young and unproven IMO. I accept that is up for debate though.

 

Had a pretty solid Olympics in the summer and a terrific season for Bologna prior to that. Don't think he was massively unproven in that sense, I think he's probably the biggest signing we've made in the modern era. Well, he is if you look at just transfer fee.

 

I had a look through the goal montage earlier, and if you want a showcase of Ramirez class, then you just need to have a quick glance through it. If he can start doing some of that stuff regularly next year then we will be flying.

 

I've been one of the ones seriously frustrated by him, mainly because I know he's capable of much more on a consistent basis.

[hypochondriac]

Very true, if you want the big players everyone else wants....then you need to pay lots of different people a nice little cut. Welcome to the modern world of football.

 

No more signing the likes of Richardson and Chaplow!

 

Exactly and IMO that appears to be the crux of our problem.

[hypochondriac]

Had a pretty solid Olympics in the summer and a terrific season for Bologna prior to that. Don't think he was massively unproven in that sense, I think he's probably the biggest signing we've made in the modern era. Well, he is if you look at just transfer fee.

 

I had a look through the goal montage earlier, and if you want a showcase of Ramirez class, then you just need to have a quick glance through it. If he can start doing some of that stuff regularly next year then we will be flying.

 

I've been one of the ones seriously frustrated by him, mainly because I know he's capable of much more on a consistent basis.

 

As I said it is up for debate. He certainly wasn't the proven quality that we have been linked with this year.

[S-Clarke]

Exactly and IMO that appears to be the crux of our problem.

 

Probably, kind of felt this for a little while. Fair play to NC for sticking to his guns, but sometimes you just need to take off the chains.

 

Ok, he wasn't a massively high profile link, but Jemal is a fair reflection of how NC possibly reacts to having to pay additional cuts/% to other parties etc.

[hypochondriac]

Probably, kind of felt this for a little while. Fair play to NC for sticking to his guns, but sometimes you just need to take off the chains.

 

Ok, he wasn't a massively high profile link, but Jemal is a fair reflection of how NC possibly reacts to having to pay additional cuts/% to other parties etc.

 

I'm not sure about that. NC sticking to his guns in this case doesn't appear to have any upside to me as a fan but it has quite a few downsides.

[Matthew Le God]

I'm not sure about that. NC sticking to his guns in this case doesn't appear to have any upside to me as a fan but it has quite a few downsides.

 

Lets judge it in September when the window has closed. The players aren't even back in full training yet.

[hypochondriac]

Lets judge it in September when the window has closed. The players aren't even back in full training yet.

 

I'll judge it now and then reappraise things in September thanks very much. As always at this time of year, it is possible to do both.

[Badger]

What people need to remember is that we are looking at European top level players, those deals aren´t finished in a couple of days.

 

It´s not the Darren Kentons, Higginbothams and Telfers we´re trying to get in here these days...

 

Thing is we're going for ambitious targets, we're competing against Champions League teams for these targets. The success rate is going to be low, but it only takes one.

 

Failing that, we can then lower our ambitions a bit and sign a couple of good, competitive squad players. .

 

Unless of course they haven't been signed up elsewhere already, by a club with less ambitious, but arguably more realistic targets to begin with.

 

He is inexperienced in bringing in the type of players we have been linked with this window i.e. players who should be playing for top European teams.

 

Perhaps Katharina & Co will take a lesson from the master ,and seek a new CEO "to take us to the next level" required.

[hypochondriac]

Unless of course they haven't been signed up elsewhere already, by a club with less ambitious, but arguably more realistic targets to begin with.

 

 

 

Perhaps Katharina & Co will take a lesson from the master ,and seek a new CEO "to take us to the next level" required.

 

Indeed

[Smirking_Saint]

I'm not sure about that. NC sticking to his guns in this case doesn't appear to have any upside to me as a fan but it has quite a few downsides.

 

Im sort of between Hypo and MLG on this one, a couple of the deals will come off but Id also like him to just turn around and get the deals done. If some of these players want to come, but want an extra 500k for the agent just do it, the TV money for a higher placed finish will pay for it

[austsaint]

Unfortunately this is it, lets get this straight, I dont want to be paying loads to agents, but, thats how transfers work.

 

Any one know why there isn't, or couldn't be a fixed percentage fee paid to agents for player sales/transfers etc?

[hypochondriac]

Im sort of between Hypo and MLG on this one, a couple of the deals will come off but Id also like him to just turn around and get the deals done. If some of these players want to come, but want an extra 500k for the agent just do it, the TV money for a higher placed finish will pay for it

 

I suppose you have to weigh up how costly it would be to lose the target simply for not paying the agent the going rate. From what Nixon is saying it appears that we are not budging and that we are not getting any of our targets as a consequence.

 

Can you put an apostrophe in your location by the way, it's quite annoying.

[Badger]

I'd support NC in not being held to ransom by agents, but we do 'seem' to find difficulty in concluding deals, or perhaps we just (unluckily) court the most complex ones with multiple owners etc.

[Smirking_Saint]

Any one know why there isn't, or couldn't be a fixed percentage fee paid to agents for player sales/transfers etc?

 

Because there is no specific rulings to it, there is generally an accepted fee of around 5% but some agents demand more, few less.

[Dig Dig]

As I said it is up for debate. He certainly wasn't the proven quality that we have been linked with this year.

 

Disagree, everyone we have been linked with thus far have some question marks, as do nearly all transfers. Ramirez was very comparable to many of our supposed targets this year.

[Smirking_Saint]

I suppose you have to weigh up how costly it would be to lose the target simply for not paying the agent the going rate. From what Nixon is saying it appears that we are not budging and that we are not getting any of our targets as a consequence.

 

Can you put an apostrophe in your location by the way, it's quite annoying.

 

Ive meant to change that for ages TBF, your not nearly as annoying as you used to be.

 

Cortese is a stickler on agent fees, which is strange as he seems happy enough to spunk cash on transfers and wages.

[hypochondriac]

Ive meant to change that for ages TBF, your not nearly as annoying as you used to be.

 

Cortese is a stickler on agent fees, which is strange as he seems happy enough to spunk cash on transfers and wages.

 

Neither are you now you don't barge around looking for a fight anymore. You also make reasonable points on occasion which is nice.

[hypochondriac]

Disagree, everyone we have been linked with thus far have some question marks, as do nearly all transfers. Ramirez was very comparable to many of our supposed targets this year.

 

Fair enough. We aren't going to agree on everything. The thing about player judgements is that it is subjective.

[austsaint]

Because there is no specific rulings to it, there is generally an accepted fee of around 5% but some agents demand more, few less.

 

In Wanyama's agents case it seems 10% was the demand. With real estate agents (not that I am one) there is a set % range which the seller and agent can then negotiate on, (usually down). As others have said, with the revenue from TV rights being so generous it does make holding out on an extra few hundred thousand for the right player seem thrifty for the wrong reasons - principled or not.

[Smirking_Saint]

Neither are you now you don't barge around looking for a fight anymore. You also make reasonable points on occasion which is nice.

 

I used to make reasonable posts back then too, but no, cant be arsed with the e-scraps, I only pop on here every now and again so its hard to keep up with them.

 

Ive since replaced my scraps with longish posts that nobody ever seems arsed to read

[hypochondriac]

I used to make reasonable posts back then too, but no, cant be arsed with the e-scraps, I only pop on here every now and again so its hard to keep up with them.

 

Ive since replaced my scraps with longish posts that nobody ever seems arsed to read

 

I respectfully disagree!

[Smirking_Saint]

In Wanyama's agents case it seems 10% was the demand. With real estate agents (not that I am one) there is a set % range which the seller and agent can then negotiate on, (usually down). As others have said, with the revenue from TV rights being so generous it does make holding out on an extra few hundred thousand for the right player seem thrifty for the wrong reasons - principled or not.

 

The Wanyama agent is a classic in the examples you talk about. As there are no set 'limits' then he can realistically charge what he wants. Also in this case, he only has two players, Wanyama and Pienaar, realistically he is only going to get any real cash from Victor, and so is trying to get a final pay day.

 

Now, the payment CAN come from either the player or the buying club (or even selling) but that fee is his fee.

 

In this case I agree with NC, and if I was Victor Id question whether the agent has the players best interests at heart, in normal cases though agents want 5% and NC only wants to pay a max of 3%, that is the 'inexperience' Nixon talks about, realistically NC needs to realise he hasnt much of a choice with the caliber of players he wants.

[Smirking_Saint]

I respectfully disagree!

 

The locations staying put then !

[Wes Tender]

I am not so sure about that. Agents are important in football, I absolutely agree with that. If a club contacts them to find them a player and they do the legwork and get the ball rolling then they are fulfilled a great role. Likewise, if a club contacts the agent of one of their own players and asks him to find his client a new club they have again provided a service. But if Saints are identifying players independent of agents, and contact their club directly, what is the players agent doing for Saints that would necessitate a massive payment? The agent has provided a service to his client in wage negotiations so any payment should come from him. An agent should be able to tangibly prove what they have done for any payment and if they can then they should be able to charge a fee. To demand payment for doing nothing and be so powerful over your client that you influence whether they sign or not because you want money is ludicrous and I am pretty sure it doesn't happen in any other sport.

 

I've no doubt we've missed out on players because of it and whilst it may seem strange at times to be so willing to pay large transfer fees and wages but not pay agents much I am not so sure Cortese will back down. We invest massive amounts of money in our scouting and network and a benefit of that is being able to manoeuvre around the market without the need to engage agents. I can understand why Cortese may refuse to pay agents money for doing nothing.

 

They'll be a shift in where money goes in football soon. The FFP rules were generated as much to stop all the money in the game ending up in players and agents pockets as it was to safeguard the future of clubs. There will of course be those clubs who pay agents a lot (you only have to look at the published tables each year to see who they are) but there are so many players about that we aren't massively restricting our options in the market. It just means we may miss out on some players - but it happens all the time and for reasons other than agents fees as well.

 

I totally agree with this. We are supposed to have an excellent scouting network, so less need for the parasitic agents to line their pockets, because we have identified the players we would like and contacted their clubs direct. Players like Wanyama will find out that having a greedy agent will eventually lead to them becoming pariahs and it will have an adverse effect on their careers if they let it get out of hand. And as you say, there are indeed more players of reasonable quality than there are places for them in the top teams, so we ought to be able to find and secure the 4/5 players we need to improve our squad enough to take us to the next level. We still hold several aces without having to be blackmailed by greedy bastard agents when there are other less problematic options available.

[Rebel]

From the accounts I have read, Lovren was fourth choice centre back and had a very poor season last year making the most amount of mistakes for a CB just ahead of Jos. I'm sure he will be a step up from the likes of Jos but he isn't an undisputed top class signing like some of the others we have been linked with.

 

I have a feeling you might be right on that one - he wanted out of Lyon and Lyon wanted rid of him. Any idea who the first 3 choices for centre back were? I am guessing Astori, Victor Ruiz and Hector Moreno if rumours were to be believed.

[hypochondriac]

I have a feeling you might be right on that one - he wanted out of Lyon and Lyon wanted rid of him. Any idea who the first 3 choices for centre back were? I am guessing Astori, Victor Ruiz and Hector Moreno if rumours were to be believed.

 

IMO Astori is proven quality certainly in comparison to Lovren. I highly doubt that we chose Lovren over Astori.

[Bewildered]

this nixon matey might have an idea about the odd transfer but don't trust his judgement, most of his scoops get fed to him by his big mates like Owen Coyle (once described as the next bill shankly and personally recommended to burnley by "nicko"), fat Sam (must have been the only footy defending venkys, until they sacked Fat Sam) and Steve Bruce (funny he suddenly knew what was going on at Hull when Bruce took charge). In general he rarely knows **** our signings unless we're buying from a northern team. Forren, Yoshida, Lovren, De Ridder, Hooiveld, Lee, Clyne and he was claiming Ramirez was agent talk until just before he signed nor does he shy away from having digs at MP, his fav being that he can't speak English

 

let's also not forget why he no longer writes for the independent

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/sep/03/theindependent.pressandpublishing

 

no idea why people hang on this gimp's every word. hate to rant but this Nixon clown has previous with other clubs when it comes to mischief making.

[Smirking_Saint]

IMO Astori is proven quality certainly in comparison to Lovren. I highly doubt that we chose Lovren over Astori.

 

We spent a lot of time trying to get Astori, for whatever reason it didnt happen, was close in Jan apparantly but we were not PL definates then. Now ? Well, a lot changes.

 

The more senior coaching staff at Staplewood occasionally get asked opinions on potential signings, Astori was one of those.

[hypochondriac]

We spent a lot of time trying to get Astori, for whatever reason it didnt happen, was close in Jan apparantly but we were not PL definates then. Now ? Well, a lot changes.

 

The more senior coaching staff at Staplewood occasionally get asked opinions on potential signings, Astori was one of those.

 

It sort of makes me wish we built more slowly instead of trying to jump ahead too soon. IMO what we need are players slightly better than what we currently have in key positions to give us a shout for europe this year or next. Once we are there we will find it easier to attract the big names.

[Smirking_Saint]

this nixon matey might have an idea about the odd transfer but don't trust his judgement, most of his scoops get fed to him by his big mates like Owen Coyle (once described as the next bill shankly and personally recommended to burnley by "nicko"), fat Sam (must have been the only footy defending venkys, until they sacked Fat Sam) and Steve Bruce (funny he suddenly knew what was going on at Hull when Bruce took charge). In general he rarely knows **** our signings unless we're buying from a northern team. Forren, Yoshida, Lovren, De Ridder, Hooiveld, Lee, Clyne and he was claiming Ramirez was agent talk until just before he signed nor does he shy away from having digs at MP, his fav being that he can't speak English

 

let's also not forget why he no longer writes for the independent

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/sep/03/theindependent.pressandpublishing

 

no idea why people hang on this gimp's every word. hate to rant but this Nixon clown has previous with other clubs when it comes to mischief making.

 

Same as most sports journalists, it will be hit or miss, if they got 80% correct then they would A. be very rich and B. probably not journos anymore.

 

Some are worth listening to more than others, some are even bang on the money but never 'proven' correct, I.E a club will never come out and say "yeah we were in for Chris Packet but it turns out his nan doesnt much like West Quay". Thats the problem with telling people the rumours you hear, even if you are a genuine ITK, if it doesnt work out your labelled a liar

[Smirking_Saint]

It sort of makes me wish we built more slowly instead of trying to jump ahead too soon. IMO what we need are players slightly better than what we currently have in key positions to give us a shout for europe this year or next. Once we are there we will find it easier to attract the big names.

 

Last year we spent a lot of time chasing players uninterested in trying their luck at a newly promoted team, its much easier to attempt to get those players this year but there are other problems, i.e negotiations.

 

Plus, I wouldnt be too worried yet, every year with every team the majority of work is 'concluded' towards the middke to end of the window, it doesnt mean nothing is happening.

[hypochondriac]

Last year we spent a lot of time chasing players uninterested in trying their luck at a newly promoted team, its much easier to attempt to get those players this year but there are other problems, i.e negotiations.

 

Plus, I wouldnt be too worried yet, every year with every team the majority of work is 'concluded' towards the middke to end of the window, it doesnt mean nothing is happening.

 

Yeah I know but my suspicion is that we have a higher percentage of players who have turned us down than your average Premiership club. Based on what went on last summer and this as well as journo comments etc.

[egg]

I think he's mistaking Corteses refusal to play ball with agents as inexperience in all honesty. Makes sense though as agents of top quality players are going to want a bigger cut.

 

I think that's the point. Experienced buyers of top players will know that agents payments are a part of the business at the top end and need to be paid. Unwillingness to do that suggests a naivety in understanding what needs to be done if you want to play with the big boys.

 

I posted last year that agents don't want to deal with us. The indications are that may still be the case and that morals/penny pinching are holding back team strengthening.

[david in sweden]

Yes, we evidently do not know how to sign players... sigh.

 

..according to him.

[Barry Sanchez]

To be fair to Cortese he can only do so much, it's up to a player and his agent if they want to come and that's still a hard sell given were a bottom tier PL side

 

I do wonder if/why we're not in for lower tier players as well though, or if all our eggs are in the 'big signing' bracket. Hopefully we're doing both and building a better squad

 

But surely Cortese could sell the 5 year plan to them, sit them down a show them the dvd? A sure fire winner, European football in now 2 years is assured, the question is why have we not signed some European known players................................

[Barry Sanchez]

I dont know what people are worrrying about, "the don" will bring more quality like he did in the shape of Mayuka, Forren, Ramirez and Guly.........................

[Glasgow_Saint]

I dont know what people are worrrying about, "the don" will bring more quality like he did in the shape of Mayuka, Forren, Ramirez and Guly.........................

 

[wild-saint]

I dont know what people are worrrying about, "the don" will bring more quality like he did in the shape of Mayuka, Forren, Ramirez and Guly.........................

 

absolutely but you forgot to add lamberrt, clyne cork, boruc etc