JWP & Cody Cropper take on the world (u-20s World Cup)

[Smirking_Saint]

For me looking at these England u21, U20 teams I would say that english football really need new influences already in academy levels.

 

Cant say that I know that much about the setups at academys but my feeling is that there are a lot of coaches that has been playing before in the old English style and mould.

There is one thing with all the foreign managers, assistants and coaches on the PL level but that is too late. Those influences are needed at a younger age, at the academy level.

 

Seems like these U-teams are playing the old english style and that tells me to think that there are too little new influences at academy levels.....

 

(yes my grammars are horrible but aint got the time to write it better now )

 

I wrote a big thing on here once, good knows where, in respect to coaching techniques and the equivalents between here and thr continent.

 

I studied it for a long time and basically we are so far behind in terms of quality and application. Most newer acadamies (and I only really have Saints to base this on) are going the right way but most grass roots coaching, even the professional ones are archaic. Most wont even let major clubs know if they have a quality youngster, prefering to 'shield them' which basically means getting nothing out of a talent.

 

Basically, on the continent it is the theory that you pretty much develop as much as you can technically by around 14, so at all youth levels you get players used to the ball, balance, both feet etc it is basically to do with the physiology of the brain and the fact it builds better pathways when younger.

 

The difference is we tend to just play football, which sounds right but in reality just ends up being 10 kids running around instead of learning anything meaningful

[Smirking_Saint]

Rabello is a talent

[Barry Sanchez]

We develop awesome athletes though who may not have any actual footballing abilty or abillity compared to others Nations of footballing repute but the lads can run all day long...........................

[Smirking_Saint]

We develop awesome athletes though who may not have any actual footballing abilty or abillity compared to others Nations of footballing repute but the lads can run all day long...........................

 

Pretty much bazzer, and even that aspect pales when you put them next to some of the beasts from Africa, those boys tend to be athletes in every sense of the word.

[Window Cleaner]

I noticed something strange about the England team today, what do you think it was children ?

 

Well perhaps not strange, more inhabitual or unusual.

Edited 26 June, 2013 by Window Cleaner

[Bearsy]

I dunno!

Edited 26 June, 2013 by Bearsy

[Window Cleaner]

yeah where was all the brothers? We looked like hitler youth out there yo!

 

indeed, looked like football in the 50s until Cole came on. All the "brothers" must be playing above their age group.

[Bearsy]

is brothers cool? I originally wrote blacks but it sounded worse somehow! I'm gonna delete + make out i never noticed, i don't want hornets nest!

[Tokyo-Saint]

Me and my black friends say brothers all the time. They also say honkies sometimes though.... I think they might be racially hating on me.

[Convict Colony]

I live in south africa, we are more advanced about this brothers etc, we talk about what tribe there from and deal with it appropriately like my hero Mick Dundee.

 

[Window Cleaner]

is brothers cool? I originally wrote blacks but it sounded worse somehow! I'm gonna delete + make out i never noticed, i don't want hornets nest!

 

fortunately I have quoted your original post and recorded it for posterity...

[mulletsaint]

Just seems to wander around a 15 metre square most of the time. In the main his team mates don't seem to want to pass to him at all.

 

Sounds like the first match then. Bypass the midfield, hit the channels early and hope for the best.

 

I seem to remember watching a Nike Academy video a few years ago where Huw Jennings was talking about how important transition of play from back to front was. Unfortunately I think too many academy systems must have been focussing on this kind of thing, sod breeding intelligent players who can pass the ball and be composed in possession.

[Saint Without a Halo]

Chile 1 England 1

Iraq 2 Egypt 1

 

Table

p W D L F A Pts

1st Iraq 2 1 1 0 4 3 4

2nd Chile 2 1 1 0 2 1 4

3rd England 2 0 2 0 3 3 2

4th Egypt 2 0 0 2 2 4 0

 

 

Iraq looked damn good v Egypt maybe England were not that bad after all!

Edited 26 June, 2013 by Saint Without a Halo

[suewhistle]

indeed, looked like football in the 50s until Cole came on. All the "brothers" must be playing above their age group.

 

You could see why _he_ wasn't..

[Sour Mash]

Don't know why people are always going on about the standard of coaching in this country, we've produced tons of excellent players in the last 20 years. Just this current young crop aren't great, happens sometimes.

[a1ex2001]

Don't know why people are always going on about the standard of coaching in this country, we've produced tons of excellent players in the last 20 years. Just this current young crop aren't great, happens sometimes.

 

Where are these excellent players of which you speak, we have produced a handfull at best and haven't produced much in the way of real world class talent since Gazza, It's not just the current generation thats the problem either looking at recent results it's this and the next generation that are lacking so lets hope it's only a two generation 'blip'! Coaching is awful in this country still too much emphasis on winning games and not enough on developing the basic skills the number of professionals in this country who's first touch is bad is truly shocking then add the ones who only pass to the oposition or 40 yards down the pitch to nobody and you really staring down the barrell!

[Sour Mash]

Where are these excellent players of which you speak, we have produced a handfull at best and haven't produced much in the way of real world class talent since Gazza, It's not just the current generation thats the problem either looking at recent results it's this and the next generation that are lacking so lets hope it's only a two generation 'blip'! Coaching is awful in this country still too much emphasis on winning games and not enough on developing the basic skills the number of professionals in this country who's first touch is bad is truly shocking then add the ones who only pass to the oposition or 40 yards down the pitch to nobody and you really staring down the barrell!

Gerrard, A. Cole, Rooney, Lampard, Owen, Beckham, Wilshire, Ferdinand, Carrick, Scholes, Bale, Defoe. Over the past 20 or 30 years, England are probably in the top 10 or 15 performers of world football. Could we do better? Of course we could and the current crop coming through don't look great, but these things can be exagerated.

[Smirking_Saint]

Don't know why people are always going on about the standard of coaching in this country, we've produced tons of excellent players in the last 20 years. Just this current young crop aren't great, happens sometimes.

 

Because the players you speak of are very good but lack the technical acuemen of the majority of players on the continent ? Yes we as a nation have produced some excellent players, but look at the conveyor belt of talent from spain. That isnt a fluke.

[Sour Mash]

Because the players you speak of are very good but lack the technical acuemen of the majority of players on the continent ? Yes we as a nation have produced some excellent players, but look at the conveyor belt of talent from spain. That isnt a fluke.

I'm not suggesting Spain is a fluke, but comparing ourselves to them is a bit unfair, they're so good at the moment it is ridiculous. Look at France at the moment, what are they churning out? Where were Portugal at the U21s? How many countries qualified for this summer's Under 21s Euros AND the Under 20s world cup? And didn't we finish top of our group in qualification for both? Just saying a bit of perspective is needed and you won't get that from comparing us to the current Spanish set-up.

[Smirking_Saint]

I'm not suggesting Spain is a fluke, but comparing ourselves to them is a bit unfair, they're so good at the moment it is ridiculous. Look at France at the moment, what are they churning out? Where were Portugal at the U21s? How many countries qualified for this summer's Under 21s Euros AND the Under 20s world cup? And didn't we finish top of our group in qualification for both? Just saying a bit of perspective is needed and you won't get that from comparing us to the current Spanish set-up.

 

Portugal, Belgium and Spain are regarded as 3 of the brightest up and coming talents in most coaching circles FWIW. I dont actually think we are as bad as is being made out, the players are good enough, as I said the problem is not the players but the system and the team not really gelling.

 

Regardless, coaching in this country needs a massive shake up, itll take time but we can produce players with excellent technical ability. Its just not most coaches main focus ATM unfortunately

[Sour Mash]

Portugal, Belgium and Spain are regarded as 3 of the brightest up and coming talents in most coaching circles FWIW. I dont actually think we are as bad as is being made out, the players are good enough, as I said the problem is not the players but the system and the team not really gelling.

 

Regardless, coaching in this country needs a massive shake up, itll take time but we can produce players with excellent technical ability. Its just not most coaches main focus ATM unfortunately

So on that basis how did the Belgian and Portuguese get on in this summer's youth tournaments? But I agree, the likes of Pearce and Peter Taylor probably aren't the people who should be coaching and managing these teams going forward.

[VectisSaint]

Gerrard, A. Cole, Rooney, Lampard, Owen, Beckham, Wilshire, Ferdinand, Carrick, Scholes, Bale, Defoe. Over the past 20 or 30 years, England are probably in the top 10 or 15 performers of world football. Could we do better? Of course we could and the current crop coming through don't look great, but these things can be exagerated.

Hardly tons, and Bale is not English of course. Out of that list the only world class players really are Rooney and Scholes in my humble opinion. I guess people would add Beckham even though I think he is vastly over-rated. Apart from Wilshere who is not proven yet, none of those have come through in the last 5 years or so. Our coaching in this country is crap, compared to elsewhere in Europe, we may have a few stars who come through but it is in spite of our coaching not because of it. Our players are not coached how to use the ball, how to retain possession, they are simply taught to get rid as soon as possible or to be athletes. The only clubs where players are coming through with these talents in this country are those with foreign coaches, such as Swansea and ourselves and a few others. Unfortunately the English FA are so far up their own arses that they cannot see this. There is no reason why we cannot produce high quality players in this country other than a need to teach properly from the grass roots level upwards, and that will take 10 years before the results are seen at the top level.

[Batman]

Hardly tons, and Bale is not English of course. Out of that list the only world class players really are Rooney and Scholes in my humble opinion. I guess people would add Beckham even though I think he is vastly over-rated. Apart from Wilshere who is not proven yet, none of those have come through in the last 5 years or so. Our coaching in this country is crap, compared to elsewhere in Europe, we may have a few stars who come through but it is in spite of our coaching not because of it. Our players are not coached how to use the ball, how to retain possession, they are simply taught to get rid as soon as possible or to be athletes. The only clubs where players are coming through with these talents in this country are those with foreign coaches, such as Swansea and ourselves and a few others. Unfortunately the English FA are so far up their own arses that they cannot see this. There is no reason why we cannot produce high quality players in this country other than a need to teach properly from the grass roots level upwards, and that will take 10 years before the results are seen at the top level.

beckham was easily world class in his day.

 

lampard was also

[Sour Mash]

Hardly tons, and Bale is not English of course. Out of that list the only world class players really are Rooney and Scholes in my humble opinion. I guess people would add Beckham even though I think he is vastly over-rated. Apart from Wilshere who is not proven yet, none of those have come through in the last 5 years or so. Our coaching in this country is crap, compared to elsewhere in Europe, we may have a few stars who come through but it is in spite of our coaching not because of it. Our players are not coached how to use the ball, how to retain possession, they are simply taught to get rid as soon as possible or to be athletes. The only clubs where players are coming through with these talents in this country are those with foreign coaches, such as Swansea and ourselves and a few others. Unfortunately the English FA are so far up their own arses that they cannot see this. There is no reason why we cannot produce high quality players in this country other than a need to teach properly from the grass roots level upwards, and that will take 10 years before the results are seen at the top level.

Where did I say Bale was English? We're talking about the quality of coaching in this country, Bale was produced by coaching in this country. You don't think Gerard, Lampard, Cole are excellent players? Fair enough. How many countries qualified for both youth tournaments this summer?

[Sour Mash]

beckham was easily world class in his day.

 

lampard was also

I tend not to use the term "World Class" as the discussion becomes hung up on it's definition - but as you say Beckham, Lampard as well as Carrick, Rooney, Gerrard, Cole have performed at the very top level year in year out. We're not Spain, but most countries arent at the moment.

[Smirking_Saint]

Hardly tons, and Bale is not English of course. Out of that list the only world class players really are Rooney and Scholes in my humble opinion. I guess people would add Beckham even though I think he is vastly over-rated. Apart from Wilshere who is not proven yet, none of those have come through in the last 5 years or so. Our coaching in this country is crap, compared to elsewhere in Europe, we may have a few stars who come through but it is in spite of our coaching not because of it. Our players are not coached how to use the ball, how to retain possession, they are simply taught to get rid as soon as possible or to be athletes. The only clubs where players are coming through with these talents in this country are those with foreign coaches, such as Swansea and ourselves and a few others. Unfortunately the English FA are so far up their own arses that they cannot see this. There is no reason why we cannot produce high quality players in this country other than a need to teach properly from the grass roots level upwards, and that will take 10 years before the results are seen at the top level.

 

This, although its not the FA being up their own ass so much as them having the wrong priorities.

 

Id also say cole, Rio and Gerrard in their prime were world class.

 

NONE of which have anywhere near the technical ability of some of the lads on the continent. And thats my point, you will of course bring through good players, but how many over the years have had that touch, technique, balance and real ability on the ball ? None, in fact even Bale, as good as he is, is more of an athlete.

[Saint Without a Halo]

It is true that the continent and other countries focus much more on technical ability at a younge rage and are much less focused on results leading to an overall crop of more skillful players to choose from.

It is still the case that the vast majority of our early years boys teams are still mainily focused on player size and early age physical abilities combined with a long ball winning game as technical skills need far more patience to develop and lead to many more mistakes during development at the younger ages. This results in young technically gifted players often being overlooked on a size basis before growth has fully set in or even having those skills coached out rather than nurtured and encouraged as part of the need to win . The result of this is poorer players in later years. Even countries with relatively little investment and facilities in junior coaching whose youngsters still follow a largely jumpers for goalposts way of random development like the Iraqs, Egypts and Chiles of this world seem to have a reasonable choice of skillful young players to choose from compared to ours!

[suewhistle]

C****t, just beaten 2-0 by Egypt. Misplaced passes, poor finishing, awful! Pleased to say that JWP looked one of the few with any quality: one misplaced pass on 28 minutes and good movement, tackling and passing. But apart from that the team were dire: Bartlett, Pritchard, Cole all awful, Kane missed a sitter.

[Saint Without a Halo]

Egypt 2 England 0

Iraq 2 Chile 1

 

England out and bottom of the Group Iraq win the Group from Chile

Iraq 7 pts Chile 5 pts Egypt 3 points England 2 pts

shows how poor we really are when our team is meant to be made up of premiere standard players!

[Saint Without a Halo]

So thats both under 21's and under 20's messed up plus apparently England have not won any of their last 19 games at the under 20's tournament

 

doesn't bode well for the future!

[LostBoys]

They were rubbish and who dd Kane have to bribe to get into the teram he was complete rubbish. Ward Prowse looked the only decent player there and when he was taken off (???????????) that was it. Another manager with no track record in a top FA job to be given the tin tack

[VectisSaint]

Where did I say Bale was English?

In your post. Why did you make a list of players and then refer to England. It was implied even if not explicit.

Anyway, England qualified for both youth tournaments this summer and won diddly squat. I actually think Peter Taylor has more coaching ability than many, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Players are selected from clubs that have no decent coaching ability, and players from teams who do have good coaching are played out of position or fitted into a system that doesn't suit or play in midfield when we bypass them by playing hoofball. English Clubs need to bring in more foreign coaches in the short term, not just to coach our youngsters but also to coach our coaches. If the FA could see this now then maybe in 10 years things might be different. Won't happen.

[Viking Warrior]

I believe the English football teams coaching system is fatally flawed . Do they still use the Howard wilkinson rationale or has Trevor booking taking it to an even new lower level . I have often wondered why so many donkeys have been used game after game . Now I realise that there is no creative coaching ethos through the national team set up . That's why players from clubs like Southampton never get picked for the full side anymore . It revolves round the top 6 clubs only . It's about time the national coaches took off their blindfolds and start picking the likes of lambert etc . Huddle and vegetables liaised to take an enigmatic player to the World Cup but instead took their drinking buddies. English national football is totally crap unless there is a fundamental review then we will never get close to winning the world or euro cup at any level

[Crab Lungs]

Never had this THREE YEAR OLD documentary been more pertinent than it is tonight http://t.co/XV1056yLXi

[egg]

Our under 20's haven't won a game at the World Cup since 1997. Christ, we're more **** than I thought.

[supersonic]

Watched the England game last night, JWP did himself no harm, looked assured and a good team player. The keeper Johnstone looked fairly good. Very impressed with Dier the CB (hopefully he sticks with England rather than playing for Portugal)

 

The rest of the team were pants. All trying to do too much themselves instead of passing, the crossing ability was non-existent.

 

The future of English football looks about as exciting as a night in with Roy Cropper

[Olallana]

Quarterfinal teams are Spain, France, Uruguay, Chile, Ghana, South Korea, Iraq and Uzbekistan.

 

Shows that clubs need to have a big scouting group to cover talents these days....

[Saint Without a Halo]

Quarterfinal teams are Spain, France, Uruguay, Chile, Ghana, South Korea, Iraq and Uzbekistan.

 

Shows that clubs need to have a big scouting group to cover talents these days....

 

Only 2 unbeaten to date are Spain and ..................... Iraq