Wanting Saints to play for England

[OldNick]

When I was younger I always wanted to Saints players to be in the England team, after the way they were treated I don't have that wish anymore.

Their heads get turned, they get tapped up or were the scapegoat if things go wrong for the team.

MLT was never the same player after the England Italy World Cup qualifier. He was ridiculed in the press, and made the scapegoat by the media. Hoddle did not defend him and was blamed for the team leaked before the game, when it turned out to be Mcmanaman. Shearer did SFA on the night but Matty took the flak, none of the team came out and stood up, but just slinked away.

 

Watching players like Shaw in the same dressing room as the big time Charlie's is not the surroundings I believe I believe we need our young players.

Beattie, Armstrong and Matty all fell foul to the international set-up

[Pugwash]

And Bridge to a certain extent.

[Sour Mash]

When I was younger I always wanted to Saints players to be in the England team, after the way they were treated I don't have that wish anymore.

Their heads get turned, they get tapped up or were the scapegoat if things go wrong for the team.

MLT was never the same player after the England Italy World Cup qualifier. He was ridiculed in the press, and made the scapegoat by the media. Hoddle did not defend him and was blamed for the team leaked before the game, when it turned out to be Mcmanaman. Shearer did SFA on the night but Matty took the flak, none of the team came out and stood up, but just slinked away.

 

Watching players like Shaw in the same dressing room as the big time Charlie's is not the surroundings I believe I believe we need our young players.

Beattie, Armstrong and Matty all fell foul to the international set-up

If you want to hold onto our best young players going forward, you'll want them called up for England. Improved international prospects will always be at the back of a few players minds if they're at Saints and not getting picked.

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

When I was younger I always wanted to Saints players to be in the England team, after the way they were treated I don't have that wish anymore.

Their heads get turned, they get tapped up or were the scapegoat if things go wrong for the team.

MLT was never the same player after the England Italy World Cup qualifier. He was ridiculed in the press, and made the scapegoat by the media. Hoddle did not defend him and was blamed for the team leaked before the game, when it turned out to be Mcmanaman. Shearer did SFA on the night but Matty took the flak, none of the team came out and stood up, but just slinked away.

 

Watching players like Shaw in the same dressing room as the big time Charlie's is not the surroundings I believe I believe we need our young players.

Beattie, Armstrong and Matty all fell foul to the international set-up

 

You could say that Lallana hasn't been the same too since his call up but he has had injuries and, as he was called up so early in the season, it may even be that it's only now becoming apparent that lower Premier League level is his ceiling.

[farawaysaint]

You could say that Lallana hasn't been the same too since his call up but he has had injuries and' date=' as he was called up so early in the season, it may even be that it's only now becoming apparent [b']that lower Premier League level is his ceiling[/b].

I don't agree with this at all, he's only had one season in the prem and he's been stellar in a few games. I'd argue that consistency is his main issue at this point.

[tajjuk]

^ He's struggled to find form since he was injured, but at the start of the season when he got his call up he was playing very well.

[positivepete]

When Lallana adds finishing to his overall game, he will silence all his critics and be very difficult to keep out of the national side. Whilst I sympathise with the sentiments of the OP from a supporters point of view, you have to hope that players want to play at the highest level they can or at least have the pride to want to play for their country where that is not the highest level! OldNick you must be of a generation that grew up wanting nothing more than to score the winning goal in the FA Cup final and to want to play for your country.

[Golden Balls]

I'm starting to feel the same. It's a catch 22. If they don't get called up, they'll want to leave to better their chances. If they do get called up they get their heads turned by the bigger boys.

 

That said, I'd feel very proud for Lambert if he got a call up. Just from where he's come from to now. He won't though, he's not the future like Welbeck is.

[Stud mark of doom]

The England set up is a joke. I've always wondered what it would be like to have a team called England that competes in the premier league. Then, when it comes to the competitions, we can enter a team that has played together more than once.

 

They would be in the championship pretty quickly.

[Golden Balls]

They would be in the championship pretty quickly.

 

They would if they played like they do normally. However the England side is capable of being a very very good side. For whatever reason the players play differently when they pull the England shirt on. It's basically full of players from the top 4, so should theoretically finish in the top 4.

[bpsaint]

I don't agree with this at all, he's only had one season in the prem and he's been stellar in a few games. I'd argue that consistency is his main issue at this point.

 

I'd agree with this, and I'd even add that I believe it was the wrong decision to make him captain in his first season of the Prem. I feel that he should have been allowed to find his feet in this league first, without having the weight of leading the team on his shoulders at the same time.

[JPTCount]

They would if they played like they do normally. However the England side is capable of being a very very good side. For whatever reason the players play differently when they pull the England shirt on. It's basically full of players fruom the top 4, so should theoretically finish in the top 4.

 

t how many in the starting line up, or first choice? Or playing in their favoured position?

[alpine_saint]

Agree with the OP, but the sense of injustice when a Saints player is the best English striker in the PL and doesnt get a sniff is just too overwhelming.

[The9]

My theory is that systems are so essential to English football nowadays, and every decision and choice is so pre-determined and micro-managed that it is literally impossible to take eleven (18? 23?) players from different clubs and integrate them into one unit within the few days the England manager has. One of the main reasons Hodgson sticks to the top teams is because he at least then gets understanding between players from the same clubs. The players are often not intelligent enough to switch systems without endless drilling over a longer period than is usually available, and the issues between Gerrard and Lampard over the past 10 years, both of whom are good internationals by any measure, show some of the problems that can occur.

 

On top of that, England is terrible at producing flair players and thus the entire pattern of play they DO produce is mechanical and "efficient" rather than exciting. This works fine against less well drilled teams in qualification and usually the early stages of tournaments, but as soon as they hit the QFs they're playing equally efficient sides who also have more creativity, and often, just better players.

 

As far as Saints go, my interest in players getting to play for England stretches as far as "I hope they get the recognition they deserve so they don't feel they have to leave".

[Pugwash]

My theory is that systems are so essential to English football nowadays, and every decision and choice is so pre-determined and micro-managed that it is literally impossible to take eleven (18? 23?) players from different clubs and integrate them into one unit within the few days the England manager has. One of the main reasons Hodgson sticks to the top teams is because he at least then gets understanding between players from the same clubs. The players are often not intelligent enough to switch systems without endless drilling over a longer period than is usually available, and the issues between Gerrard and Lampard over the past 10 years, both of whom are good internationals by any measure, show some of the problems that can occur.

 

On top of that, England is terrible at producing flair players and thus the entire pattern of play they DO produce is mechanical and "efficient" rather than exciting. This works fine against less well drilled teams in qualification and usually the early stages of tournaments, but as soon as they hit the QFs they're playing equally efficient sides who also have more creativity, and often, just better players.

 

As far as Saints go, my interest in players getting to play for England stretches as far as "I hope they get the recognition they deserve so they don't feel they have to leave".

 

Some good points there. But they do raise a couple of obvious questions:

One - if England managers pick 'units' from the top three or four clubs because they're used to a system, then why not play that system? When England plays, it's pedestrian and nothing like the PL football that they play week in, week out.

Two - if the players aren't intelligent enough to be able to switch systems, then select more intelligent players. Frankly, I don't think Gerrard or, to a lesser extent, Lampard fit that category.

[Pugwash]

The England set up is a joke. I've always wondered what it would be like to have a team called England that competes in the premier league. Then, when it comes to the competitions, we can enter a team that has played together more than once.

That would be cracking idea for say the top ten clubs, one home game against England each.

[The9]

There'd be some justification for it if it worked, but it clearly doesn't does it! Game after game they look as cohesive and committed as a QPR training session.

 

Fair comment - but what's the alternative when you can't coach a system from scratch in 3 days ? "Committed" is another issue, does trying harder but still being cack help ?

Edited 31 May, 2013 by The9

[The9]

Some good points there. But they do raise a couple of obvious questions:

One - if England managers pick 'units' from the top three or four clubs because they're used to a system, then why not play that system? When England plays, it's pedestrian and nothing like the PL football that they play week in, week out.

Two - if the players aren't intelligent enough to be able to switch systems, then select more intelligent players. Frankly, I don't think Gerrard or, to a lesser extent, Lampard fit that category.

 

Answer to One is that they're all used to different systems at their clubs. I think the England "style" is terribly dull and it does look like "tactics by committee", and there's no room for flair or creativity through the middle of the park. But they are very tediously efficient when they actually try.

 

Two - probably the most difficult thing to appraise from a distance, and even more difficult to justify to a knee-jerk media.

[The9]

It isn't working at all, so there's nothing to be lost by giving players from all clubs a fair chance. Other nations can do it. The cohesion comes from giving that team time and games together. Trying to shoehorn big names into a team and stubbornly sticking with it isn't the same thing at all.

 

There is a good side in there somewhere, we just need to utilise our strengths. We play a faster game and that tempo can hurt teams. Just need to get our full backs and wide forwards with the ball more, which probably involves 4-3-3 in some form and making sure that central 3 know what they're doing.

 

I'm not sure what the solution actually is, but Walcott ahead of Milner has got to be at least half of it. Hodgson's natural tendency to 4-4-2 can't help much at the moment, I haven't forgotten Germany wandering past Barry in 2010 either. Accepting that he assumed beating Ireland at their own game shouldn't be too difficult (wrong) and that that line up won't be the norm, I'm still not sure he's readily accepting that some kind of 4-2-3-1 is the way to go (though he did specifically say the 2 up front was more of a 1 with 1 in the hole against Ireland), and most Prem sides are using that already. Could it be that the players who can best play that system (looking at Cork here for a start) just aren't in the squad ?

 

I'm not sure England's tempo is faster than Germany's or Brazil's (or Spain's, though they're not moving the ball as far as quickly).

[david in sweden]

And Bridge to a certain extent.

 

......although in his case he was always second choice to 100 cap Ashley Cole........and had his good run at a time when Cole was out injured......

[david in sweden]

this thread seems to reek of the " why isn't Rickie in the England squad " type thread.......well... I ask myself the same question.

 

Pundits say ..You should always look to play the " on-form " players, and if 34 y.o. Frank Lampard can be selected then why not the 31 y.o. Rickie Lambert......as they both scored 15 Prem.goals.?......ahead of some of the dead-legs we've got now.

 

In one way, Rickie's achievement can be considered better, as Frank (whom I admire) scored his goals in a team filled with a pack of internationals, whereas Rickie's came despite playing in a side that was struggling for much of the season.

 

If England get stuffed in Rio, then Roy needs to do a rapid re-think, because there aren't any more " friendlies " lined up before next season.....

[simo]

I'd like our players to get international recognition but England atm is a joke player's aren't picked on form its all about media coverage for the sponsors! (Anyone else having problems loading pages on android since the downtime? )

[Pugwash]

......although in his case he was always second choice to 100 cap Ashley Cole........and had his good run at a time when Cole was out injured......

 

I was actually referring to the lack of support for him from the England setup over the John Terry issue. Obviously Terry was not going to be dropped for footballing reasons, but Bridgey was hung out to dry. He was never the same afterwards and lost his appetite for football.

[Toadhall Saint]

Very good OP. An England cap nowadays just = a bigger pay cheque each week from the club. Ohh I'm an International therefore I am worth more - not when you are in a less than average side your not. Is Rio Ferdinand in your top 4 CB's in the world? If not then he is not worth the £250,000 pw (yes that is per week cost to the club). TBH I wouldn't want any of our up and comings anywhere near that bunch of International losers.

[Miltonaggro]

When asked about his successes as an international manager, Platini once said that you must always pick players on form, nothing to do with their age or club (at the time this statement was used to discuss Jimmy Case breaking into the England side whilst with Saints). In the past England used to do this, the 1966 World Cup Squad consisted of players from Leicester, Fulham, Everton, Man U, Leeds, West Ham, Spurs, Sheff W, Chelsea, Liverpool, Wolves, Saints and Arsenal, and the semi final squad of 1990, players from Forest, Derby, Rangers, Man U, Marseille, Spurs, Liverpool, QPR, Chelsea, Aston Villa, and Wolves - perhaps this should be pointed out to the myopic marketing mullahs that run the FA and tell Roy who he is allowed to pick...

[Badger]

In the past Saints fns have always seen it as an honour when one of our own has gone on to play for England, such as Paine or Chivers (before my time), or Channon,Williams,Wright,MLT,Shearer etc.

 

More recently there has been the issue of "our" players being 'distracted' by the call up, even being lured away by mixing with the big club set.

 

For Lambert at the moment I'm glad he is not wasting time on meaningless friendlies, although hope he scores 30 next season to make it impossible for Woy to ignore him, should England make it to the finals (have my doubts).

 

But at least its good to know our players are eligible for England, as I suspect we'll have an influx of foreign mercenaries that will remove us even further from this.

[david in sweden]

I was actually referring to the lack of support for him from the England setup over the John Terry issue.

Obviously Terry was not going to be dropped for footballing reasons, but Bridgey was hung out to dry. He was never the same afterwards and lost his appetite for football.

 

 

yes that was the worst case of hypocrisy you'll find in a long time.

 

Recently read Wikipedia on Sepp Blatter, who whilst forcing through a worthwhile and necessary ruling about racism in football, refused to commit himself on the issue of gays in football, (esp. in view of hosts in future World Cup comps.)

......and said it was " a moral and ethical issue " ........for individual countries to decide upon..... ah Sepp ...you mean like racism .....but different !

 

Does he mean that..... " all players should be treated as equals, but some are less equal than the rest ......?

[Miltonaggro]

Interesting statistic with Bridge is that he won 15 caps for England whilst with Saints between 2002-2003, and thereafter only 21 further caps when with Chelsea (and finally Man City) between 2004-2009. So had he stayed with Saints he would probably have got 50 plus caps ;-)