How far are we off a Top 6 place (fifth or sixth in all reality)?

[CB Fry]

Can't think of many that changed the result, Villa away maybe but I still don't see that as not a penalty.

 

 

Of course.

[Turkish]

Can't think of many that changed the result, Villa away maybe but I still don't see that as not a penalty.

 

Man City at home.

[farawaysaint]

Berbatov is not playing in a top 6 side - for whatever reason..

 

I think the game has moved on since Teddy was playing and he really is the exception.

 

Kevin Philips?

[notnowcato]

Kevin Philips?

 

Plays for Palace.

[St Marco]

We are miles away from a top 6 team.

In terms of current players I think Morgan, Jay Rod, Shaw, Clyne and possibly Gaston are the only ones who could make that level needed.

To get top 6 you need good players but more importantly consistency. You can't lose many home games.

 

For us to jump so far next season we would require two proven CBs, two proven wingers, two playmakers and a new striker. That won't be cheap.

 

That's why I think top 6 next season is unrealistic. We can improve the squad this summer with a new CB, a new centre midfield and a new striker. Those three could cost say £10m each. Then if we break the top 10 we can the following season add the final players needed.

 

Next year I think our target has to be top 10 IF we invest this summer by a lot. If we don't then it will be another relegation scrap.

[Matthew Le God]

Plays for Palace.

 

No, he was on loan at Palace. He is contracted to Blackpool.

[notnowcato]

No, he was on loan at Palace. He is contracted to Blackpool.

 

Still played for Palace.

 

The point being made was that KP was another "exception" - he clearly isn't as he was playing for Palace this season not Manchester United or Spurs.

[DuncanRG]

Erm, a long way away and a lot further away than most people on here seem to think.

[Saint Paul C]

I see it as a few mini-leagues within the Premiership. We are a long, long way from the likes of the top 6 competition which is contested by Man U, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool & Spurs.

 

Then the next bunch is the Europa League competitors of Everton, N'castle, West Brom and maybe Fulham or West Ham. If we can win the 3rd league this season which see us above Swansea, Norwich, Stoke, Villa, Sunderland etc.. then we will have done well. I honestly think though that we will finish above West Ham, Fulham and Swansea etc. this coming season if we buy some real quality.

 

The players that need upgrades for me include Lallana, Puncheon, Jos, Fonte, Fox, Mayuka, Gaza, Richardson, Guly plus a whole host of 2nd stringers like De Ridder, Sharp, Chappers etc which are never going to cut it for us in the premier league.

 

It's gonna cost a 5h!t load of money to do but will be fun watching over the next couple of months.

[Professor]

Top 6 can still leave a club quite detached from the 4 Champions League places. This year, Liverpool in 6th were 12 points behind Arsenal in 4th and 28 points behind Man U.

Saints in 14th were 20 points behind Liverpool and had nine teams between them and 4th place. All of those 9 teams will also be strengthening and trying to make the top 6 so the scale of this task is monumental. Michael Laudrup's estimate of £200m+ needed to be spent for a team to reach that level is an opinion by someone who knows.

[Tokyo-Saint]

No, he was on loan at Palace. He is contracted to Blackpool.

 

Classic Matt le godding + 1 reputation points.

[NickG]

To be a "top 6 side" ie one of expected top 6 regularly - we are miles away.

 

To finish in top 6 achievable with improvements as others mentioned AND not all top sides performing as they should.

 

In last ten years years or so I think (feel free to check) Everton, Newcastle (only year ago) Villa, Blackburn, Bolton, west ham have finished top 6.

 

Doubt our squad, plus summer signings, would be million miles from those?

 

We won't better, player for player, - chelsea, spurs, arsenal, man u, man c, liverpool.

 

So can't see us being seen as a favourite to finish in top 6 - but team / manager perform well, one of big 6 has off year, is possible in next few years.

 

I don't see any team outside of that group that wouldn't be interested in some of our squad, reckon likes of Everton not out of reach.

[Turkish]

So Nick G, is 6th no longer a Realistic aim for this squad with no new signings?

[notnowcato]

Classic Matt le godding + 1 reputation points.

 

Completely agree. MLG makes a correction but in fact he misses the context of the point being made and therefore enhances his reputation.

[tajjuk]

Top 6 can still leave a club quite detached from the 4 Champions League places. This year, Liverpool in 6th were 12 points behind Arsenal in 4th and 28 points behind Man U.

Saints in 14th were 20 points behind Liverpool and had nine teams between them and 4th place. All of those 9 teams will also be strengthening and trying to make the top 6 so the scale of this task is monumental. Michael Laudrup's estimate of £200m+ needed to be spent for a team to reach that level is an opinion by someone who knows.

 

 

 

Umm, Liverpool were 7th. As QPR have shown and to extent Chelsea and Liverpool, Spending doesn't equal success.

 

Essentially this year 8th -> 17th was a much of muchness and that effected the top 6 IMO as the teams in the middle weren't that great. Pretty sure Spur's 72 points would have got them a Champions League spot in most years and that Man Utd squad is not as good as their canter to the title suggested.

 

Lot of upheaval in the Prem for next season, new managers at Utd, City, Chelsea, Everton. Some massive players could be on the way out like Bale and Suarez, will Spurs and Liverpool be able to replace those players?

 

We need 20 points or so to do top 6. Take the awful start away, with Shaw, Cork and Boruc in the team I reckon we would have made about 8 - 10 points more.

 

Off your starting list I think you've been harsh on Cork. Boruc and Lambert. Get 3 more players of their ability in and I think we could be there or there about, but you need some luck with injuries and a decent run of form, or we need a Bale or a Suarez, who knows maybe Gaston will kick into life.

 

He's played as a lone striker quite often.

 

According to whoscored he hasn't played up front at all this season. I know he has done previously but he's a definitely a midfielder. He's a good example of how we could use Lambert going forward in the 'hole' with pacey players playing in front of him.

 

 

 

One thing we need to do is get some better dead ball takers in, Norwich managed 17 goals from set pieces compared to our 8. Add 9 more goals on and I reckon we would have had a fair few more points this year.

Edited 31 May, 2013 by tajjuk

[Sour Mash]

Umm, Liverpool were 7th. As QPR have shown and to extent Chelsea and Liverpool, Spending doesn't equal success.

 

Essentially this year 8th -> 17th was a much of muchness and that effected the top 6 IMO as the teams in the middle weren't that great. Pretty sure Spur's 72 points would have got them a Champions League spot in most years and that Man Utd squad is not as good as their canter to the title suggested.

 

Lot of upheaval in the Prem for next season, new managers at Utd, City, Chelsea, Everton. Some massive players could be on the way out like Bale and Suarez, will Spurs and Liverpool be able to replace those players?

 

We need 20 points or so to do top 6. Take the awful start away, with Shaw, Cork and Boruc in the team I reckon we would have made about 8 - 10 points more.

 

Off your starting list I think you've been harsh on Cork. Boruc and Lambert. Get 3 more players of their ability in and I think we could be there or there about, but you need some luck with injuries and a decent run of form, or we need a Bale or a Suarez, who knows maybe Gaston will kick into life.

 

 

 

According to whoscored he hasn't played up front at all this season. I know he has done previously but he's a definitely a midfielder. He's a good example of how we could use Lambert going forward in the 'hole' with pacey players playing in front of him.

 

 

 

One thing we need to do is get some better dead ball takers in, Norwich managed 17 goals from set pieces compared to our 8. Add 9 more goals on and I reckon we would have had a fair few more points this year.

You think West Brom and Sunderland were much of a muchness last season? And you've picked out exceptions - as a general rule the more money a team spends the better they do.

[Turkish]

Umm, Liverpool were 7th. As QPR have shown and to extent Chelsea and Liverpool, Spending doesn't equal success.

 

Essentially this year 8th -> 17th was a much of muchness and that effected the top 6 IMO as the teams in the middle weren't that great. Pretty sure Spur's 72 points would have got them a Champions League spot in most years and that Man Utd squad is not as good as their canter to the title suggested.

 

Lot of upheaval in the Prem for next season, new managers at Utd, City, Chelsea, Everton. Some massive players could be on the way out like Bale and Suarez, will Spurs and Liverpool be able to replace those players?

 

We need 20 points or so to do top 6. Take the awful start away, with Shaw, Cork and Boruc in the team I reckon we would have made about 8 - 10 points more.

 

Off your starting list I think you've been harsh on Cork. Boruc and Lambert. Get 3 more players of their ability in and I think we could be there or there about, but you need some luck with injuries and a decent run of form, or we need a Bale or a Suarez, who knows maybe Gaston will kick into life.

 

 

 

According to whoscored he hasn't played up front at all this season. I know he has done previously but he's a definitely a midfielder. He's a good example of how we could use Lambert going forward in the 'hole' with pacey players playing in front of him.

 

 

 

One thing we need to do is get some better dead ball takers in, Norwich managed 17 goals from set pieces compared to our 8. Add 9 more goals on and I reckon we would have had a fair few more points this year.

 

winning the champions league and fa Cup one season and the Europa League the next doesn't equal success? F*ck me.

[AussieDog]

The top 5 are a league apart - but Spurs really aren't that much better than Everton or Liverpool (especially if Bale goes or has an injury) and I see no reason why we can't compete with them if the desire is there. Can't see how we could step up from that though, but I'd be delighted if we did as long as we then don't end up doing a Leeds by over-committing

[AussieDog]

The top 5 are a league apart - but Spurs really aren't that much better than Everton or Liverpool (especially if Bale goes or has an injury) and I see no reason why we can't compete with them if the desire is there. Can't see how we could step up from that though, but I'd be delighted if we did as long as we then don't end up doing a Leeds by over-committing

 

 

I think I've just invented another team....lol.....Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Everton. Not quite sure who the 5th team was!

[tajjuk]

You think West Brom and Sunderland were much of a muchness last season? And you've picked out exceptions - as a general rule the more money a team spends the better they do.

 

Take out Lukaku, who is a loan player and the West Brom squad is not that much better than the Sunderland one, there are also several exceptions to that rule in the league this year, one you just mentioned - WBA, virtually no spending finished 8th, Spurs and Everton have both been regularly outspent by Liverpool over recent years, Chelsea have probably spent tow or three times the amount Spurs have spent yet finished just 3 points better off. It's how you spend it and how you build a team not how much you spend.

 

winning the champions league and fa Cup one season and the Europa League the next doesn't equal success? F*ck me.

 

The Champions League yes, Europa no, even Borough got the UEFA cup final, the only decent team Chelsea played was Benfica, they overcame the greats of Sparta Prague, Steau Bucharest, Rubin Kazan and Basel. They also only managed to win the first 3 legs by one goal.

 

Also last year they won the Champions League, then they only managed to finish 6th that season.

 

In just the last 3 seasons Chelsea have spent £278 million on transfers. It's not really surprising that Ambramovich has been sacking so many managers considering they have been no where near the title in the last two seasons and spent that much.

[Turkish]

Take out Lukaku, who is a loan player and the West Brom squad is not that much better than the Sunderland one, there are also several exceptions to that rule in the league this year, one you just mentioned - WBA, virtually no spending finished 8th, Spurs and Everton have both been regularly outspent by Liverpool over recent years, Chelsea have probably spent tow or three times the amount Spurs have spent yet finished just 3 points better off. It's how you spend it and how you build a team not how much you spend.

 

 

 

The Champions League yes, Europa no, even Borough got the UEFA cup final, the only decent team Chelsea played was Benfica, they overcame the greats of Sparta Prague, Steau Bucharest, Rubin Kazan and Basel. They also only managed to win the first 3 legs by one goal.

 

Also last year they won the Champions League, then they only managed to finish 6th that season.

 

In just the last 3 seasons Chelsea have spent £278 million on transfers. It's not really surprising that Ambramovich has been sacking so many managers considering they have been no where near the title in the last two seasons and spent that much.

 

Man City have spent similar in the last 3 years and only have a league and FA Cup to show for it and despite your sneering at Chelsea winning the Europa League Man United didn't get near the final in the season they played in it. Man City didn't even quality for it this season and their champions league performance was the worst of any English club in the history of the competition. if you go back over a longer period of 5 years they've spent £590m against Chelseas £325m, and Chelsea have a champions league, Europa league, a league title and 3 FA cups in this period. 6 major trophies in 5 years, Yet bizarrely this doesn't equal success in your eyes.

[tajjuk]

Man City have spent similar in the last 3 years and only have a league and FA Cup to show for it and despite your sneering at Chelsea winning the Europa League Man United didn't get near the final in the season they played in it. Man City didn't even quality for it this season and their champions league performance was the worst of any English club in the history of the competition. if you go back over a longer period of 5 years they've spent £590m against Chelseas £325m, and Chelsea have a champions league, Europa league, a league title and 3 FA cups in this period. 6 major trophies in 5 years, Yet bizarrely this doesn't equal success in your eyes.

 

LOL, Man Utd went out to Bilbao who during that season were excellent under Bielsa and were troubling Barcelona, playing a game against them which was described as one of the best contests of football ever. Not at all comparable to Chelseas tour of European footballs backwater spots.

 

Its also funny that you mention eyes, I didn't say that Chelsea hadn't been successful, I said spending doesn't necessarily mean success, but then you have illustrated my point with Man City and again with the Chelsea example, as they were more successful 4 years ago than they have been recently despite spending far less because they had built a team.

 

As I will re-iterate it is not just about spending its about who you spend it on, a lot of Man City;s biggest transfers in value - Robinho, Balotell, Kolarov, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Jo, Milner etc. have not been key to their success but some of the players that have come for much smaller fees are now key players for them like Kompany, Clichy, Hart, Barry and Zabaletta.

[Turkish]

LOL, Man Utd went out to Bilbao who during that season were excellent under Bielsa and were troubling Barcelona, playing a game against them which was described as one of the best contests of football ever. Not at all comparable to Chelseas tour of European footballs backwater spots.

 

Its also funny that you mention eyes, I didn't say that Chelsea hadn't been successful, I said spending doesn't necessarily mean success, but then you have illustrated my point with Man City and again with the Chelsea example, as they were more successful 4 years ago than they have been recently despite spending far less because they had built a team.

 

As I will re-iterate it is not just about spending its about who you spend it on, a lot of Man City;s biggest transfers in value - Robinho, Balotell, Kolarov, Santa Cruz, Adebayor, Jo, Milner etc. have not been key to their success but some of the players that have come for much smaller fees are now key players for them like Kompany, Clichy, Hart, Barry and Zabaletta.

 

Oh come on fella, it's an easy trophy to win, nothing to it and deserves no credit, you said so yourself even BORO got the final,not sure why you are making excuses for Man United

 

I guess our FA cup run in 2003 wasn't worth a wa*k in your eyes because we only played one team in the premier league on the way to the final? You can only beat what's in front of you sunshine, the records will show that they won the tournement in 2013 and that they've won 6 trophies in 5 years. They have had success, far more success than Man City who have spent £200m more in the same period, yet they dont make your list of "money guarntees nothing" Excellent attempts at discrediting 6 major trophies in five years though. I mean as QPR AND Chelsea have shown, spending money doesn't equal success. A true mboard classic comment :lol::lol:

Edited 31 May, 2013 by Turkish

[Doctoroncall]

Not interested in the top six position if it breaks the bank. Although a few teams have shown over performance with a set of decent players but that's still not enough to break into the top six. Depending on the academy players - are they more like Shaw than Reeves, we're at least four quality players away from any sort of challenge over the next couple of seasons.

[The9]

To answer the original point, we are currently 22-23 points from coming 6th. That's basically 8 wins. If we stopped dropping daft points at home (and away) to the likes of Wigan, Stoke, Sunderland, and QPR... they'd probably be offset by us not beating Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool next time around.

 

So where exactly are we going to find the extra 8 wins from ? A little bit of a better start covers one or two, but we're at least 2 CBs, a midfielder or three and at least one striker from having the depth to be able to play in the multiple ways needed to beat everyone and not just teams who play short passing and don't counter-attack.

Edited 31 May, 2013 by The9

[saints_is_the_south]

My suggestion of signings in the HCDAJFU thread (Trippier, Figueroa, Moreno, Nainggolan, Lens) would see us push into the top half and towards top 8 IMO. That lot will cost between £30-40m. Would give us this as a squad,

 

First XI with cover in brackets.

 

Boruc (Davis, Gazzaniga)

 

Clyne (Trippier) - Yoshida (Fonte) - Moreno (Hooiveld/Forren) - Shaw (Figueroa)

 

Schneiderlin (Davis) - Nainggolan (Cork)

 

Lens (Rodriguez/Puncheon) - Ramirez (JWP) - Puncheon (Lallana)

 

Rodriguez (Lambert/Mayuka)

 

From there I think we'd probably need another £20-£30m to make us regular top 6 contenders. Left side of midfield and another real top class CB to replace Yoshida would then become the biggest areas for further improvement and upgrade, as well as maybe a top class striker, depending on how J Rod's development pans out. Could also look to bringing in a younger top class keeper for the future.

 

Would obviously require us having to keep all of our best players too.

 

So in summary, to answer the question - circa £60/70m over 2 summers plus keeping our best players (by next summer the likes of Clyne, Schneiderlin, Shaw, Rodriguez would all have 2 seasons of PL football under their belts). All IMO.

[Crab Lungs]

As a first 11, we're not a million miles away. We're probably a Lukaku and Jagielka away.

 

As a squad, we're absolutely miles away. Plenty of players who'd "do a job" like you've got at Fulham, Stoke etc but we don't have many like-for-like quality replacements when the squad gets thin.

[Rebel]

My suggestion of signings in the HCDAJFU thread (Trippier, Figueroa, Moreno, Nainggolan, Lens) would see us push into the top half and towards top 8 IMO. That lot will cost between £30-40m. Would give us this as a squad,

 

First XI with cover in brackets.

 

Boruc (Davis, Gazzaniga)

 

Clyne (Trippier) - Yoshida (Fonte) - Moreno (Hooiveld/Forren) - Shaw (Figueroa)

 

Schneiderlin (Davis) - Nainggolan (Cork)

 

Lens (Rodriguez/Puncheon) - Ramirez (JWP) - Puncheon (Lallana)

 

Rodriguez (Lambert/Mayuka)

 

From there I think we'd probably need another £20-£30m to make us regular top 6 contenders. Left side of midfield and another real top class CB to replace Yoshida would then become the biggest areas for further improvement and upgrade, as well as maybe a top class striker, depending on how J Rod's development pans out. Could also look to bringing in a younger top class keeper for the future.

 

Would obviously require us having to keep all of our best players too.

 

So in summary, to answer the question - circa £60/70m over 2 summers plus keeping our best players (by next summer the likes of Clyne, Schneiderlin, Shaw, Rodriguez would all have 2 seasons of PL football under their belts). All IMO.

 

 

I would agree with you on most of that. One problem though Davis is not a holding midfielder - he has only played well for us when he's had an attacking role.

 

I'd switch Olsson for Figueroa at left back, ship out Hooiveld and replace Mayuka with Austin.

 

But I think Cortese is more ambitious and more impatient than that.

 

We are a very good centre forward, a good pacey right winger and two very good centre backs away from being a top 6 side with our starting 11 - but we are also a good second eleven away from it as well - to allow us to keep it going all season. At the moment a couple of injuries and we look like a struggling team.

 

So I expect Cortese to spen enough money to significantly strengthen our first 11 and improve our 2nd 11

[Hamilton Saint]

We have a long way to go, yet. After we beat Liverpool, Chelsea and Reading, people got carried away (not surprisingly). But we need to be a lot more consistent - especially when we're under pressure. The way we petered out at the end of the season (the last six games, I mean) was very disappointing - and very revealing. We need to improve the squad (three or four key positions), and the team needs to improve as a unit. It needs to learn how to hold a lead, how to dispatch an inferior team, and how to be more ruthless. Too many draws last season that should have been wins.