notnowcato Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Top 6 is a bit misleading, but if we were to aim for a fifth or sixth place finish how far is our current starting XI off from being a starting XI of a fifth or sixth place side: Boruc - not good enough Clyne - good enough All Centre backs that played this season - not good enough Shaw - good enough Cork - possibly good enough Morgan - good enough Puncheon - not good enough Ramirez - not convinced, possibly good enough Lallana - not good enough Rickie - not convinced, possibly good enough Other regular starters: Rodriguez - not convinced, possibly good enough Davis - not good enough Ward-Prowse - not convinced, possibly good enough So, IMO we have Clyne, Shaw and Morgan who are good enough to at least play in a side that could finish fifth or sixth. The 5 "possibly good enoughs" could well make the Everton / Spurs starting line up but I doubt would be regulars. Combining the above still leaves us short by half a starting XI - not squad depth players - starters. That is serious amount of investment to get us to fifth or sixth, not much change out of £80m to buy proven starters would be my estimate. Would have to be a sensational window to get us challenging for 5th / 6th but happy to debate my opinion. Would prefer this not to slip into a "some mboarders believe this to be the case..." style pointless point scoring exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
student Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Probably about £275m in transfer fees away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 How much did Turkish and CB Fry pay you to start this thread...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suomi Saint Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 A million miles. Next question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Rickie - not convinced, possibly good enough Do you not think Everton would love a striker like Lambert? I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpweySaint Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Top 6 is a bit misleading, but if we were to aim for a fifth or sixth place finish how far is our current starting XI off from being a starting XI of a fifth or sixth place side: Boruc - not good enough Clyne - good enough All Centre backs that played this season - not good enough Shaw - good enough Cork - possibly good enough Morgan - good enough Puncheon - not good enough Ramirez - not convinced, possibly good enough Lallana - not good enough Rickie - not convinced, possibly good enough Other regular starters: Rodriguez - not convinced, possibly good enough Davis - not good enough Ward-Prowse - not convinced, possibly good enough So, IMO we have Clyne, Shaw and Morgan who are good enough to at least play in a side that could finish fifth or sixth. The 5 "possibly good enoughs" could well make the Everton / Spurs starting line up but I doubt would be regulars. Combining the above still leaves us short by half a starting XI - not squad depth players - starters. That is serious amount of investment to get us to fifth or sixth, not much change out of £80m to buy proven starters would be my estimate. Would have to be a sensational window to get us challenging for 5th / 6th but happy to debate my opinion. Would prefer this not to slip into a "some mboarders believe this to be the case..." style pointless point scoring exercise. I'd throw in Forren and some of our academy grads, no telling how good they might be yet. A few of these really step up and it's starts looking more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 (edited) Puncheon - not good enough Ramirez - not convinced, possibly good enough Lallana - not good enough Rodriguez - not convinced, possibly good enough Davis - not good enough Would you honestly want Everton's Steven Naismith over all of them? I wouldn't. The gap between the best Saints XI and the best Everton XI really isn't very great. It is the centre backs, taking too long to start playing Boruc and lack of depth that let us down this season. Edited 30 May, 2013 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I'd agree with the original list except for Lambert. Love having him but I think our whole ethos of building our game around him would hold us back from being a top 6 side. He's clearly good enough for the PL and as a starting choice for a mid table side, but not a starting slot for a top 6 side IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 miles. Expectations are far too high in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I'd agree with the original list except for Lambert. Love having him but I think our whole ethos of building our game around him would hold us back from being a top 6 side. He's clearly good enough for the PL and as a starting choice for a mid table side, but not a starting slot for a top 6 side IMO. Do you not think Lambert would start for Everton? I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Mullet Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Boruc is easily good enough, as long as he stays off the pop. Personally I think Yoshida alongside a top quality CB would be a very good combination and could be as good as the other relatively poor current Premier League CB pairings. Cork is good enough alongside Morgan. Remove him from the team and suddenly we leak goals. I agree he can be upgraded however. I think it is the top 4 that could be improved. Lallana has had a poor stop-start season, Punch has looked the pick of the forwards for me together with Lambert. Jay Rod will become a top-6 standard player without any doubt in my mind, but question whether we have the patience to develop him properly. We are much weaker off the bench than the current top 6 who are geared up for gruelling Euro campains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 30 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Do you not think Everton would love a striker like Lambert? I do. I love Rickie, always will but he's not as good as Fellaini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Do you not think Lambert would start for Everton? I do. No I don't, as i see it they don't seem to use that type of player up front, they go for someone more mobile with Fellaini a bit more Lambert like behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I love Rickie, always will but he's not as good as Fellaini. Fellaini isn't a striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpweySaint Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I love Rickie, always will but he's not as good as Fellaini. V different players. Lamberts link up play with somebody like felliani sat behind him making runs would be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 No I don't, as i see it they don't seem to use that type of player up front, they go for someone more mobile with Fellaini a bit more Lambert like behind. I don't see it as particularly relevant what Moyes would have done. My point was more that Lambert is a better striker than Jelavic and Anichebe. - Anicebe is 6 foot 3, yes he is fast, but he has only 18 goals in 130 games for Everton! - Jelavic looked appalling at St Mary's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Take 6 from 14 and guess the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Rickie is going to be less and less of the striker we know him as over the next couple of seasons. He's been fantastic, but PL football has come too late in his career. We're already seeing him drop deeper as he doesn't have any pace to beat his man. I think next season we'll see him slowly lose his place as an automatic starter. His footballing brain means he's still worth having, but the goal tally will drop. For those reasons I say he's not good enough for top 6, not as a starter anyway. Haven't seen much to show JRod is up to it either. I would say that only Cork, MS, Shaw and Clyne are definites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan abnormal Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 i would say evertons first team is better in pretty much every position pienaar > lallana- baines>shaw- distin and jagielka>yoshi and hooiveld- mirallas > punch fellaini>gaston. i would say that we are quite a way off. 5 or 6 quality additions. top 8/9 is far more realistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Haven't seen much to show JRod is up to it either. Have you not been going to games in the last 4 months? Rodriguez and Schniederlin have been our best two performers under Pochettino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Rickie is going to be less and less of the striker we know him as over the next couple of seasons. He's been fantastic, but PL football has come too late in his career. We're already seeing him drop deeper as he doesn't have any pace to beat his man. I think next season we'll see him slowly lose his place as an automatic starter. His footballing brain means he's still worth having, but the goal tally will drop. For those reasons I say he's not good enough for top 6, not as a starter anyway. Haven't seen much to show JRod is up to it either. I would say that only Cork, MS, Shaw and Clyne are definites. And some even question Cork apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 And some even question Cork apparently. They shouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 (edited) For me, we need 2 CB's, DM competition, pace on the wings and a striker. A couple of general squad additions as well. I don't know how much money it would cost, no one does. It's about getting quality suitable for premier league so that we can perform to a much more consistent level. On our day we can be as good as teams in the top 6 but no way near to playing at that level most weeks. Edited 30 May, 2013 by Dig Dig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I don't see it as particularly relevant what Moyes would have done. My point was more that Lambert is a better striker than Jelavic and Anichebe. - Anicebe is 6 foot 3, yes he is fast, but he has only 18 goals in 130 games for Everton! - Jelavic looked appalling at St Mary's Of course it's relevant what Moyes did. If not, why highlight them as a top 6 club in the first place? If Everton change their style completely then it's entirely speculation as to whether Lambert could fit in. From their previous form and style finishing last season in the top 6, no I just don't see them integrating Lambert into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 The Everton argument is silly because they are not going to be top 6 next season and striker is their weakest position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Have you not been going to games in the last 4 months? Rodriguez and Schniederlin have been our best two performers under Pochettino. I disagree. We enjoyed enormous possession during every match during the second half of the season, including in attacking areas. We were unable to score enough of the chances the team was creating to actually turn most of that possession into wins. Lambert scored enough goals over the season to do himself justice, but tell me, if we're creating the possession, if we're creating the chances, yet we're not scoring, doesn't our striker who plays furthest up the pitch have some responsibility? Apart from a couple of matches after MP took over, JRod just didn't deliver enough goals this season and he really should've done. I'm hoping he'll improve, but six goals in 33 starts was pretty poor in a team usually having over 50% possession, mostly high up the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Rickie is going to be less and less of the striker we know him as over the next couple of seasons. He's been fantastic, but PL football has come too late in his career. We're already seeing him drop deeper as he doesn't have any pace to beat his man. I think next season we'll see him slowly lose his place as an automatic starter. His footballing brain means he's still worth having, but the goal tally will drop. For those reasons I say he's not good enough for top 6, not as a starter anyway. Berbatov, he has a football brain but little pace. What do you think of him? Do you remember Sheringham, no pace, football brain, played until he was 40 yrs old or thereabouts. It's the players whose pace gives them their edge that fade with age. Michael Owen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 30 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Would you honestly want Everton's Steven Naismith over all of them? I wouldn't. The gap between the best Saints XI and the best Everton XI really isn't very great. It is the centre backs, taking too long to start playing Boruc and lack of depth that let us down this season. You say it's not great but then you back it up buy suggesting it is. For me Everton and Spurs keepers are better than Boruc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 30 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 May, 2013 (edited) Fellaini isn't a striker. He's played as a lone striker quite often. Edited 30 May, 2013 by notnowcato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Berbatov, he has a football brain but little pace. What do you think of him? Do you remember Sheringham, no pace, football brain, played until he was 40 yrs old or thereabouts. It's the players whose pace gives them their edge that fade with age. Michael Owen. I would be delighted if Lambert carried on playing at that standard so long, but as I said, I don't think he'll be the player he has been. I still rate him though. I just don't think he'll be able to carry on shouldering the goalscoring burden like he has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 He's played as a lone striker quite often. 12 goals, the sort of total Lallana should be targetting instead of his woeful 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 He's played as a lone striker quite often. What MLG means is he isn't listed as a striker on Football manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 We'd need about 6 quality new players to have a decent chance because our squad is far too short in depth. If Cork & Schneiderlin were both out for a month or two at the same time I could see us struggling massively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 30 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Berbatov, he has a football brain but little pace. What do you think of him? Do you remember Sheringham, no pace, football brain, played until he was 40 yrs old or thereabouts. It's the players whose pace gives them their edge that fade with age. Michael Owen. Berbatov is not playing in a top 6 side - for whatever reason.. I think the game has moved on since Teddy was playing and he really is the exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 miles. Expectations are far too high in my opinion. Agreed, but doesn't every season start like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 30 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Agreed, but doesn't every season start like this? Grandad - surely if anything this thread should point out how far away we are from being a rival to Spurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Agreed, but doesn't every season start like this? Yea, a bit like when we were all saying that we would be promoted from League 1, and then promoted again from the Championship and then to stay in the Premier League. We've been massively off with our expectations in recent seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 We had a nightmare start and it took us ten games for the management to come to terms with what was required in the Premier. The rest of the season we didn't set the world alight but nonetheless did well. 37 points from 28 games averaging 1.32 points a game would give the current team the potential to win 50 points at the same level of performance. We all know that we dropped points through naivety towards the end of games and I would expect us to overall do better second time around. If we add three or four better players in the summer I would expect us to do better than that. 50 points would have seen us finish 8th. however to finish 6th would have needed 13 more points and 4th 23 more points which I think would well be beyond the present side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Think you've been a bit harsh on Punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I tend to agree with the OP - I think we are miles away from top 6 (definitely eons away from CL). I think a more realistic target would have been to get into the top ten - if we make that I'd be more than happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 (edited) I tend to agree with the OP - I think we are miles away from top 6 (definitely eons away from CL). I think a more realistic target would have been to get into the top ten - if we make that I'd be more than happy. Top 10 = the 2 woeful Gazza giveaways and not conceeding at the last minute at Wigan due to a schoolboy error from err a schoolboy. 47 points we would have had so I think that at least getting 50 isn't an unrealistic target. In fact we can probably all pinpoint little things that might have given us 50 points already. Not closing down Bale at Whte Hart Lane, Morgan would probably have done that, might have got a red though. Adkins and his KD mania No Cork Missed chances that were easier to convert than miss Fox It's not an ideal world but there are a lot of little things that can be corrected fairly simply to bring us to 50 points. Top 8 will do for me. Edited 30 May, 2013 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Top 10 = the 2 woeful Gazza giveaways and not conceeding at the last minute at Wigan due to a schoolboy error from err a schoolboy. 47 points we would have had so I think that at least getting 50 isn't an unrealistic target. Top 8 will do for me. The fact is we had the Gazza giveaways and we didn't hold on against Wigan. We struggled in the last games to get points on the board. We are were we are - Top 10 is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Top 10 = the 2 woeful Gazza giveaways and not conceeding at the last minute at Wigan due to a schoolboy error from err a schoolboy. 47 points we would have had so I think that at least getting 50 isn't an unrealistic target. In fact we can probably all pinpoint little things that might have given us 50 points already. Not closing down Bale at Whte Hart Lane, Morgan would probably have done that, might have got a red though. Adkins and his KD mania No Cork Missed chances that were easier to convert than miss Fox It's not an ideal world but there are a lot of little things that can be corrected fairly simply to bring us to 50 points. Top 8 will do for me. Of course, in all the points we did get, not one single point was due to our good fortune, getting the rub of the green, other teams gifting us goals, us cheating/diving to get penalties and so on. Every single point completely deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Of course, in all the points we did get, not one single point was due to our good fortune, getting the rub of the green, other teams gifting us goals, us cheating/diving to get penalties and so on. Every single point completely deserved. Can't think of many that changed the result, Villa away maybe but I still don't see that as not a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Let's be fair. I love Rickie and he's been great for us. But, he isn't fit enough to lace Sheringham's boots and comparing him to Berbatov is like comparing Fox to Ashley Cole. FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 You're right, Berbatov is a lazy c**t who hates running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 Let's be fair. I love Rickie and he's been great for us. But, he isn't fit enough to lace Sheringham's boots and comparing him to Berbatov is like comparing Fox to Ashley Cole. FFS. I'm afraid you've missed the point. Reference was to the fact that all three lack pace. Lack of pace is no impediment to longevity, as was claimed. In fact lack of pace allows a skilful player to play on longer than someone who relies on pace which fades with age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I'm afraid you've missed the point. Reference was to the fact that all three lack pace. Lack of pace is no impediment to longevity, as was claimed. In fact lack of pace allows a skilful player to play on longer than someone who relies on pace which fades with age. I agree with you in general, just surprised that noone has mentioned Giggs yet though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I agree with you in general, just surprised that noone has mentioned Giggs yet though I think he has more in his bag than say Michael Owen. He's used sparingly. He plays in a more withdrawn role and he creates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 30 May, 2013 Share Posted 30 May, 2013 I think he has more in his bag than say Michael Owen. He's used sparingly. He plays in a more withdrawn role and he creates. Agree, just that he started out in his career relieing on his pace. But as I said I agree with you in general but that there will always be some great exceptions and to compare players with Sheringham and the likes will always fall short..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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