Laudrups view on Swansea prospects

[stu0x]

So there we have it then, the biggest club in the world that won the treble with those players are the only ones in 20 odd years to achieve this feat which is entirely possible for Saints.

Well if you expand your search beyond the premier league then you can find other teams that have done it, most notably Barca and Ajax (repeatedly). In fact, arguably, most teams that dominate for a significant period of time have had very strong academies (or young player development systems).

 

It raises an interesting chicken or egg quandary though. Is their academy a by-product of their dominance, or a factor of it? You could make an argument to say that a strong youth development policy has shown itself to be key to sustained success, and that without it success is likely to be fleeting and extremely cost-ineffective.

 

Of course engaging in that discussion would need much more open-minded humility and much less supercilious sneering. So probably not going to happen.

[Saint Garrett]

Isn't Bilbao a pretty good example ?!

[UpweySaint]

Well if you expand your search beyond the premier league then you can find other teams that have done it, most notably Barca and Ajax (repeatedly). In fact, arguably, most teams that dominate for a significant period of time have had very strong academies (or young player development systems).

 

It raises an interesting chicken or egg quandary though. Is their academy a by-product of their dominance, or a factor of it? You could make an argument to say that a strong youth development policy has shown itself to be key to sustained success, and that without it success is likely to be fleeting and extremely cost-ineffective.

 

Of course engaging in that discussion would need much more open-minded humility and much less supercilious sneering. So probably not going to happen.

 

You can point to Ajax coming good once more recently as a product of their academy graduates, and some good coaching by a true legend, while the hype about Germany often talks about how their league focused on bringing through a number of their own talents ahead of expensive imports.

 

Maybe being a club with a strong reputation for both sucess and nurturing young talent is key to attracting, and keeping, bright young talent. In theory we're just a cup win away then

[CB Fry]

Don't Ajax have the advantage of being, well, effing Ajax?

 

And using Barcelona as a comparator to Saints is barely worth dignifying with a **** take.

[Window Cleaner]

Don't Ajax have the advantage of being, well, effing Ajax?

 

And using Barcelona as a comparator to Saints is barely worth dignifying with a **** take.

 

Ajax aren't very good anyway, it's a **** poor league and games against teams like Willem 2 are like a week off at the Club Med

[Turkish]

So what we are saying is in the last 20 years only Man United and Barcelona in the entire world have managed to finish in the top 6 of their leagues regularly with half a squad made up of academy products. I can see why people think it'll be so easy for Saints.

[UpweySaint]

Don't Ajax have the advantage of being, well, effing Ajax?

 

And using Barcelona as a comparator to Saints is barely worth dignifying with a **** take.

 

 

Ok yes they do, we would never be Ajax overnight but tradition has to start somewhere. No reason we couldn't one day by like an Ajax-light ...?

[stug76]

So what we are saying is in the last 20 years only Man United and Barcelona in the entire world have managed to finish in the top 6 of their leagues regularly with half a squad made up of academy products. I can see why people think it'll be so easy for Saints.

 

Who said it would be easy?

 

It's possible, I would say that the investment in infrastructure would make it more likely to happen than if we hadn't invested in our infrastructure but I don't think anyone said it was "easy".

 

Are you making things up again?

[Turkish]

Who said it would be easy?

 

It's possible, I would say that the investment in infrastructure would make it more likely to happen than if we hadn't invested in our infrastructure but I don't think anyone said it was "easy".

 

Are you making things up again?

 

This forum has a history of outlandish claims about how easy it is going to be to crack the top 6. That all you need is a decent manager and a good academy, that our top young players will ignore the overtures of top clubs to stay here and play with their mates from when they were 11, that top foreign players will join us for less money because Southampton is a nice place to live, what with being near the new forest, thier wives will love West Quay and they can go for a walk and a cream tea in the new forest on days off. You need to learn your forum history before starting mugging yourself off again last time we got into a discussion sunshine.

[Tamesaint]

This forum has a history of outlandish claims about how easy it is going to be to crack the top 6. That all you need is a decent manager and a good academy, that our top young players will ignore the overtures of top clubs to stay here and play with their mates from when they were 11, that top foreign players will join us for less money because Southampton is a nice place to live, what with being near the new forest, thier wives will love West Quay and they can go for a walk and a cream tea in the new forest on days off. You need to learn your forum history before starting mugging yourself off again last time we got into a discussion sunshine.

 

The answer to stug's question is

 

Yes. Turkish is making things up again.

[stug76]

I have been around this form long enough to know exactly what you mean, except "the forum" doesn't have an opinion and it didn't make the statements or claims that you say it did . You make this **** up and make your counter claims to make yourself look good. I don't know why you do it, do you?

 

As for last time, you made yourself look stupid then, and I've no doubt you'll do the same again.

 

 

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Turkish]

I have been around this form long enough to know exactly what you mean, except "the forum" doesn't have an opinion and it didn't make the statements or claims that you say it did . You make this **** up and make your counter claims to make yourself look good. I don't know why you do it, do you?

 

As for last time, you made yourself look stupid then, and I've no doubt you'll do the same again.

 

 

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

It's a bit odd that your last 7 posts over 4 days have all been about me or in response to me. Odd.

[The9]

This forum has a history of outlandish claims about how easy it is going to be to crack the top 6. That all you need is a decent manager and a good academy, that our top young players will ignore the overtures of top clubs to stay here and play with their mates from when they were 11, that top foreign players will join us for less money because Southampton is a nice place to live, what with being near the new forest, thier wives will love West Quay and they can go for a walk and a cream tea in the new forest on days off.

 

I'll give you that the ones in bold have been made by more than a tiny minority, but the rest of it is just, at most, one or two people in about 5 years.

[stug76]

I read most of the threads here and every time some one is being an arsehole I highlight it. Like you say, its strange that I only seem to respond to you. Why do you think that is?

 

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Turkish]

I'll give you that the ones in bold have been made by more than a tiny minority, but the rest of it is just, at most, one or two people in about 5 years.

 

Quite a few people have said the others too, not in the way I did obviously which was just to make the point, but have said people will come to Southampton because its a great place to live, near the sea, airport etc.

[Turkish]

Its not odd at all, I read most of the threads here and every time some inner id being an arsehole I highlight it. Like you say, is strange that I only seem to respond to you. Why do you think that is?

 

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

8 out of 8.

[Saint Garrett]

Thing is these young players aren't all going to come through and suddenly take us to Europe. It's going to take time. The outstanding ones will leave, but hopefully they'll stay with us a bit longer than the previous ones and so on.

 

It will take time "in an ideal world" whether this happens or not. Yes it's unlikely we'll be able to bring through a top 6 side but why not try and be the blueprint for others to copy?

[The Kraken]

Thing is these young players aren't all going to come through and suddenly take us to Europe. It's going to take time. The outstanding ones will leave, but hopefully they'll stay with us a bit longer than the previous ones and so on.

 

It will take time "in an ideal world" whether this happens or not. Yes it's unlikely we'll be able to bring through a top 6 side but why not try and be the blueprint for others to copy?

Do you think that other clubs have not previously thought of it? It seems like you're suggesting its a whole new novel approach that no other club has considered before.

[UpweySaint]

Do you think that other clubs have not previously thought of it? It seems like you're suggesting its a whole new novel approach that no other club has considered before.

 

At the risk of sounding like a creep I think he was just saying lets try to be the best at it. Noubt wrong with aspiration even if its aspiring just to do what others may have attempted but with more sucess.

[The Kraken]

At the risk of sounding like a creep I think he was just saying lets try to be the best at it. Noubt wrong with aspiration even if its aspiring just to do what others may have attempted but with more sucess.

Of course there's nothing wrong with it; its just that it often gets portrayed as an idea that other clubs either haven't thought of or won't be capable of. Saints as a club have a rich history of bringing youth through (remember the late 90s teams of the Wallace brothers, Le Tissier, Shearer, Benali et al. Yes we should try to emulate it; we should also remember that us and every other club in the division is trying to do the exact same right now, so "being the blueprint" is a bit naïve thinking IMO.

[UpweySaint]

Of course there's nothing wrong with it; its just that it often gets portrayed as an idea that other clubs either haven't thought of or won't be capable of. Saints as a club have a rich history of bringing youth through (remember the late 90s teams of the Wallace brothers, Le Tissier, Shearer, Benali et al. Yes we should try to emulate it; we should also remember that us and every other club in the division is trying to do the exact same right now, so "being the blueprint" is a bit naïve thinking IMO.

 

Fair, I'd say more optimistic then naive. We've had more sucess and could be more hopeful of it working then, lets say, Fulham or Stoke or even Norwich. I hope we can continue to produce a good level of quality but, of course, nothing to say it wont all go pete tong.

 

I know finances was a huge factor but I remember the "dutch experiment" and shudder!

[Saint Garrett]

Of course there's nothing wrong with it; its just that it often gets portrayed as an idea that other clubs either haven't thought of or won't be capable of. Saints as a club have a rich history of bringing youth through (remember the late 90s teams of the Wallace brothers, Le Tissier, Shearer, Benali et al. Yes we should try to emulate it; we should also remember that us and every other club in the division is trying to do the exact same right now, so "being the blueprint" is a bit naïve thinking IMO.

 

I wasn't saying we were the first ones to ever do it. But clubs at this level rarely give youth a chance. We've been very good in that department the last few years and the players we've brought through show that.

 

Yes it's going to be very heard to do, but might as well give it a go....we're not going to go out and spend millions and millions on world class players, so the only chance Cortese has of ticking his boxes are with homegrown players IMO. Is it plausible? That remains to be seen.

[The Kraken]

I wasn't saying we were the first ones to ever do it. But clubs at this level rarely give youth a chance. We've been very good in that department the last few years and the players we've brought through show that.

 

Yes it's going to be very heard to do, but might as well give it a go....we're not going to go out and spend millions and millions on world class players, so the only chance Cortese has of ticking his boxes are with homegrown players IMO. Is it plausible? That remains to be seen.

As I said above, we must give it a go, we'd be stupid not to. Just your comment of "being the blueprint" struck me as the unrealistic part. We're not blazing a trail of inventiveness, we're seeking to maximise our academy system as we have done in the past (as I said with that remarkable late 80s team where almost half the team were sometimes made up of youth graduates) and as many other clubs are ploughing millions into doing right now. Also I'm not sure if I agree with your comment that "clubs at this level rarely give youth a chance", in fact I wonder if in this day and age its actually becoming more and more common than in bygone days.

[Saint Garrett]

Not many who give their own youth a chance in the Prem...most buy young players from other clubs, or send their own out on loan for a few years.

[Turkish]

Not many who give their own youth a chance in the Prem...most buy young players from other clubs, or send their own out on loan for a few years.

 

Does that not suggest to you how hard and rare it is for a club to produce a homegrown player that is genuinely the quality of a top 6 club player? Yet some people seem to think we are going to produce a team full of them all at the same time.

[The Kraken]

Not many who give their own youth a chance in the Prem...most buy young players from other clubs, or send their own out on loan for a few years.

Yeah, I really don't buy that line, sorry. It just doesn't seem to ring true. Maybe at the very top level they get farmed out, but that's hardly surprising given the level of player clubs need to churn out to have something better than they can buy. PL clubs haven't been investing tens of millions into their academies for no reason. The investment in bringing through youth and better coaching from younger levels is at an all time high. Villa are rightly getting plaudits for their approach to it, amongst various others.

[Saint Garrett]

Yeah, I really don't buy that line, sorry. It just doesn't seem to ring true. Maybe at the very top level they get farmed out, but that's hardly surprising given the level of player clubs need to churn out to have something better than they can buy. PL clubs haven't been investing tens of millions into their academies for no reason. The investment in bringing through youth and better coaching from younger levels is at an all time high. Villa are rightly getting plaudits for their approach to it, amongst various others.

 

Who are they then? How many of Villas players have come through their academy? Didn't they buy a lot of them from other teams?

 

And yes it is extremely difficult, which is why I said its going to be very hard for us to do it. And likelihood is we won't be successful with it. But what I said was based on our recent success with youth players. It's certainly an interesting topic of discussion which you won't be able to answer for a good few years. But I do think no reason why we can't try our best to bring through the best players possible. Surround them by a few promising younger players from around the globe and we have a promising team.

 

Yes things won't always work out the way they would in the "ideal world" but we can surely give it our best shot....

[The9]

Quite a few people have said the others too, not in the way I did obviously which was just to make the point, but have said people will come to Southampton because its a great place to live, near the sea, airport etc.

 

Might have been a fairer point in League One when we were trying to sign the odd journeyman, notsomuch when linked to bigger European names like you just did though.

[The9]

Do you think that other clubs have not previously thought of it? It seems like you're suggesting its a whole new novel approach that no other club has considered before.

 

Seems to be that we're copying the approach of some highly successful teams in Ajax, Barcelona and Man U.

[The Kraken]

Who are they then? How many of Villas players have come through their academy? Didn't they buy a lot of them from other teams?

 

And yes it is extremely difficult, which is why I said its going to be very hard for us to do it. And likelihood is we won't be successful with it. But what I said was based on our recent success with youth players. It's certainly an interesting topic of discussion which you won't be able to answer for a good few years. But I do think no reason why we can't try our best to bring through the best players possible. Surround them by a few promising younger players from around the globe and we have a promising team.

 

Yes things won't always work out the way they would in the "ideal world" but we can surely give it our best shot....

At the risk of labouring the point.....I completely agree with this part. Always have. Always will. I just disagreed with your notion of "setting a blueprint" or however you decided to describe it, as I don't think it holds true. Especially so as we ourselves this season have let some of our academy grads go out on loan to get some experience, something which you point at other clubs for doing in a seemingly negative fashion. We should definitely aim to continue being a side that brings through a decent array of talent. I just can't quite get absorbed by the notion that we'll be blazing a trail and setting records in doing so; plenty of other clubs have a decent record of bringing players through too.

[The Kraken]

Seems to be that we're copying the approach of some highly successful teams in Ajax, Barcelona and Man U.

Indeed, and a damned good idea it is too, following a well laid blueprint that they and indeed we have been successful at for decades.

[Dig Dig]

Keeping Shaw this summer will be a good start.

 

I know others don't rate him too highly but I think JWP will be a very good player and not likely to want to go anywhere either.

 

Be interesting to see who the next one will be to seriously challenge for a place.

[Turkish]

Indeed, and a damned good idea it is too, following a well laid blueprint that they and indeed we have been successful at for decades.

 

Following, rather than setting one, yes?

[Dig Dig]

Following, rather than setting one, yes?

 

To be fair though, these teams don't do it year in year out on the scale that Utd did in early 90's and Barca more recently. Having excellent infrastructure and commitment obviously helps but I think there is an element of seizing a golden crop which occurs not that often at all.

 

Whether it will happen for us in the next few years remains to be seen but for the immediate future, the only chance we have will be in the trsnsfer market and it will cost a hell of a lot.

[Turkish]

To be fair though, these teams don't do it year in year out on the scale that Utd did in early 90's and Barca more recently. Having excellent infrastructure and commitment obviously helps but I think there is an element of seizing a golden crop which occurs not that often at all.

 

Whether it will happen for us in the next few years remains to be seen but for the immediate future, the only chance we have will be in the trsnsfer market and it will cost a hell of a lot.

 

Exactly, which shows its a once in a generation thing for big clubs that have been setting the blue print for others and with the exception of Ajax, won't have bigger clubs cherry picking their best players.

[The9]

Who are they then? How many of Villas players have come through their academy? Didn't they buy a lot of them from other teams?

 

And yes it is extremely difficult, which is why I said its going to be very hard for us to do it. And likelihood is we won't be successful with it. But what I said was based on our recent success with youth players. It's certainly an interesting topic of discussion which you won't be able to answer for a good few years. But I do think no reason why we can't try our best to bring through the best players possible. Surround them by a few promising younger players from around the globe and we have a promising team.

 

Yes things won't always work out the way they would in the "ideal world" but we can surely give it our best shot....

 

Time for some patented The9 Facts... Villa's 17 players with the most appearances last season were :

 

Gabriel Agbonlahor (F) - Trainee 2004 (ENG)

Nathan Baker (D) - Trainee 2008 (ENG)

Barry Bannan (M) - Trainee 2008 (SCO)

Joe Bennett (D) - signed from Middlesbrough £2.75m when aged 22

Christian Benteke (F) - signed from Genk, BEL £7m when aged 21

Ciaran Clark (D) - Trainee 2008 (ENG)

Fabian Delph (M) - Signed from Leeds undisclosed when aged 19

Karim El Ahmadi (M) - signed from Feyenoord £2m when aged 27

Brad Guzan (G) - signed from Chivas USA £600k when aged 23

Brett Holman (M) - signed from AZ Alkmaar NED free when aged 28

Stephen Ireland (M) - signed from Man City £8m when aged 23

Eric Lichaj (D) - Trainee 2008 (USA)

Matthew Lowton (D) - Signed from Sheff U £3m when aged 23

Charles N'Zogbia (M) - Signed from Wigan £9.5m when aged 23

Ron Vlaar (D) - Signed from Feyenoord £3.2m when aged 27

Andreas Weimann (F) - Trainee 2009 (AUT)

Ashley R Westwood (M) - Signed from Crewe for £2m when aged 22.

 

Sylla will probably play more than Stephen Ireland in future and was next on the list having only signed in January, so worth adding him, signed for £2m from Clermont (FRA) aged 22.

[Saint Garrett]

Didn't realise Weimann came through their academy. Fair play.

[Turkish]

The9, it looks to me like they are signing young, hungry players who are guranteed to improve and playing them with their own academy products. Isn't this the 'Southampton way'?

[The9]

For comparison, I'm just doing the same for Saints (starting, League appearances).

[Saint Garrett]

Tbf I think we're pretty similar to Villa. But with a bit more money and able to bring in players of a bit higher quality.

[The9]

The9, it looks to me like they are signing young, hungry players who are guranteed to improve and playing them with their own academy products. Isn't this the 'Southampton way'?

 

Yup.

[The9]

Saints :

 

Artur Boruc (G) Signed Free aged 32

Nathaniel Clyne (D) Signed Undisclosed from Palace aged 21

Jack Cork (M) Signed Undisclosed Chelsea aged 21

Kelvin Davis (G) Signed £1m Sunderland aged 29

Steven Davis (M) Signed "Free" (cough) Rangers aged 27

Jose Fonte (D) Signed £800k Palace aged 26

Daniel Fox (D) Signed Burnley Undisclosed aged 25

Paulo Gazzaniga (G) (ESP/ARG) Signed Gillingham aged 20

Jos Hooiveld (D) Signed Celtic Undisclosed aged 28

Adam Lallana (M) Trainee 2006 (ENG)

Rickie Lambert (F) Signed Bristol Rovers £1m aged 27

Jason Puncheon (M) Signed Plymouth Undisclosed aged 23

Gaston Ramirez (M) Signed Bologna £12m aged 21

Jay Rodriguez (F) Signed Burnley £6m aged 22

Morgan Schneiderlin (M) Signed Strasbourg (FRA) £1.2m aged 18

Luke Shaw (D) Trainee 2011 (ENG)

Maya Yoshida (D) Signed VVV Venlo (NED) aged 24

 

The next two are Guly and Ward-Prowse, 12 starts between them.

 

If anything this shows that we're not actually very good at bringing players through compared to Villa, who now have a side full of young integrated talent with a season's experience. We've obviously had a different approach in picking up players from the lower leagues and are only now adding bigger signings - but this alone suggests having half a team of academy players is a bit of a pipe dream (as opposed to home-grown ones, for which Schneiderlin qualifies along with Cork, Clyne, Rodriguez etc). Having seen Villa's experiences this season I'm not sure I'd want us to go through the frankly hairy integration process they had.

 

We also have 3 keepers in our "most appearances" 17, Villa have 1.

Edited 30 May, 2013 by The9

[CB Fry]

The9, it looks to me like they are signing young, hungry players who are guranteed to improve and playing them with their own academy products. Isn't this the 'Southampton way'?

 

 

Worth noting, though, they were a hell of a lot closer to the Champions League when they were spunking untold millions on transfer fees and wages. Funny that.

[The9]

Worth noting, though, they were a hell of a lot closer to the Champions League when they were spunking untold millions on transfer fees and wages. Funny that.

 

True enough, the question is whether teams will be able to keep doing that under FFP rules or whether the gap will close, as well as the relatively new Elite Academy regulations allowing clubs to hoover up far more top level youth talent from all over the country irrespective of geography. Unfortunately, given Man City's novel approach to the FFP rules (buying an MLS Franchise and building a new, sponsored academy costing shedloads) and extending their "wage allowance", I'm not sure it'll make that much difference.

 

I guess we won't know if we can compete for a top 6 place until we see the kind of players we're signing. Realistically we need at least four £15m players to get into the top 8, never mind higher. We were, after all, 22 points adrift of 6th this season and only 8 from 8th. There's no really big noise coming from the academy at the moment, so we can forget anyone other than Ward-Prowse or maybe at a stretch Targett adding to our numbers in the next year or so.

[UpweySaint]

Saints :

 

Artur Boruc (G) Signed Free aged 32

Nathaniel Clyne (D) Signed Undisclosed from Palace aged 21

Jack Cork (M) Signed Undisclosed Chelsea aged 21

Kelvin Davis (G) Signed £1m Sunderland aged 29

Steven Davis (M) Signed "Free" (cough) Rangers aged 27

Jose Fonte (D) Signed £800k Palace aged 26

Daniel Fox (D) Signed Burnley Undisclosed aged 25

Paulo Gazzaniga (G) (ESP/ARG) Signed Gillingham aged 20

Jos Hooiveld (D) Signed Celtic Undisclosed aged 28

Adam Lallana (M) Trainee 2006 (ENG)

Rickie Lambert (F) Signed Bristol Rovers £1m aged 27

Jason Puncheon (M) Signed Plymouth Undisclosed aged 23

Gaston Ramirez (M) Signed Bologna £12m aged 21

Jay Rodriguez (F) Signed Burnley £6m aged 22

Morgan Schneiderlin (M) Signed Strasbourg (FRA) £1.2m aged 18

Luke Shaw (D) Trainee 2011 (ENG)

Maya Yoshida (D) Signed VVV Venlo (NED) aged 24

 

The next two are Guly and Ward-Prowse, 12 starts between them.

 

If anything this shows that we're not actually very good at bringing players through compared to Villa, who now have a side full of young integrated talent with a season's experience. We've obviously had a different approach in picking up players from the lower leagues and are only now adding bigger signings - but this alone suggests having half a team of academy players is a bit of a pipe dream (as opposed to home-grown ones, for which Schneiderlin qualifies along with Cork, Clyne, Rodriguez etc). Having seen Villa's experiences this season I'm not sure I'd want us to go through the frankly hairy integration process they had.

 

We also have 3 keepers in our "most appearances" 17, Villa have 1.

 

Nice list, hopefully it will change over the next few years. Though I think it's worth noting Villa had to give youth a chance due to precarious finances with their previous expenditure.

 

It will be interesting to see how genuine we are next season with a few of the academy players certainly on the fringes of being a part of the squad picture. Chambers, Stephens (assuming you count him), Isgrove, Targett and, to some extent, JWP.

[Saint Garrett]

But then you look at the players we have brought though.....

 

Baird, Mills, James, Chamberlain, Dyer, Blackstock, Best, Gillett, Walcott, Surman, Bale, Lallana, JWP, Shaw

 

And you could maybe scrape Jones, Williamson, even Schneiderlin in there. (At a push I know!)

 

But you put a few top players around them and you have a handy squad.

Edited 31 May, 2013 by Saint Garrett

[Turkish]

But then you look at the players we have brought though.....

 

Baird, Mills, James, Chamberlain, Dyer, Blackstock, Best, Gillett, Walcott, Surman, Bale, Lallana, JWP, Shaw

 

And you could maybe scrape Jones, Williamson, even Schneiderlin in there. (At a push I know!)

 

But you put a few top players around them and you have a handy squad.

 

 

Blackstock and Best were signed when they were about 17, not officially academy products.

 

Anyway, do you genuinely think them along with Mills, Surman, Gillet, James, Lallana, are top 6 squad players?

[CB Fry]

But then you look at the players we have brought though.....

 

Baird, Mills, James, Chamberlain, Dyer, Blackstock, Best, Gillett, Walcott, Surman, Bale, Lallana, JWP, Shaw

 

And you could maybe scrape Jones, Williamson, even Schneiderlin in there. (At a push I know!)

 

But you put a few top players around them and you have a handy squad.

 

 

If we sign Dexter Blackstock, Leon Best, Simon Gillet and Andrew Surman this summer then I will have little doubt over our top six ambitions next season.

[Turkish]

If we sign Dexter Blackstock, Leon Best, Simon Gillet and Andrew Surman this summer then I will have little doubt over our top six ambitions next season.

 

Don't forget Lloyd James.

[Saint Garrett]

No but Chamberlain, Theo, Bale are, and Shaw is already up there, with JWP impressing as well. Dyer could possibly do a job at a standard just below that.

 

Add a few others from Europe and the odd signing like Cork and Clyne, and you're not far off a top 6 team. It's only an example anyway.