Professor Posted 26 May, 2013 Share Posted 26 May, 2013 At least one rumour is that £30m is the budget agreed between Cortese and Katharina Leibherr for this year's close season squad strengthening. That may be no more than a guess based on what the club spent last year but if that is a fair 'ball park' figure would it be adequate to support the move to 'the next level' that is being talked of? Although there may be some fees from a few of the players who are surplus to requirements, the total income from Transfers Out isn't likely to add much to the budget. Some people day we need to bring in 5 or 6 players to the squad, some suggest 2 or 3 will be enough. If we take three as an example and if the budget is £30m the question is would£10m a player be enough to add 'world class' quality? The top 6 clubs are being linked with players carrying transfer fees of £20m or £30m or more. Unless the £30m budget is a significant understatement of what the club will spend, we would seem to be well outside the top 6, looking as are a lot of other clubs at maybe one player for £10m or bit more and others in the £2m-£3m range. If that is true, will we ever make it across the divide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 26 May, 2013 Share Posted 26 May, 2013 I would be certain that any true figure would be kept well underwraps. No point exposing your hand in a sellers market, puts you in a terrible position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 26 May, 2013 Share Posted 26 May, 2013 I hate to point this out 'professor' but we aren't a top 6 club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 26 May, 2013 Share Posted 26 May, 2013 CB, LB, AM, Str. The four positions I'd like to see strengthened. £30 million is enough IF you can find a bargain or two. (By that I mean a player for, say, £3 million or less - like a Clyne but for one of those other positions.) For striker, you look at Benteke at Villa as an example. £7 million still can get you a good quality, goal scoring striker, if you know where to look. (Plus there's an element of luck in every transfer.) £7 million would still leave you £23 million for 3 positions - more than enough. £30 million is a good amount to invest IMO - it's almost stunning to hear that said when you think we were scrambling around for free transfers like Lee Molyneux and Ryan Smith just 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Who's talking about world class quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 15 Michus... It's all about how we spend the money and we will no doubt be receiving money for player transfers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 30m is marginal for the sort of improvements we need, imo. Considering the excuse making for our inability to address the CB positions for the whole of last season and in the summer. 30m + the fee to get shot of Ramirez would be enough though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 30m is marginal for the sort of improvements we need, imo. Considering the excuse making for our inability to address the CB positions for the whole of last season and in the summer. 30m + the fee to get shot of Ramirez would be enough though. What the hell are you on about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 What the hell are you on about JUST moaning as normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 If we add the £15 million for selling Gastom Ramirez back to Italy (Fiorentina or Juventus), bring in young players with real potential rather than buy players at the top of the market and sign one or two players on free transfers such as Honda and Douglas - and maybe one or two on loan as well it could be enough. We could also sell Shaw for £15 million to Chelsea but if we do we should ask for him back on loan - along with McCrachan - as part of the deal. That would give us £60 million to spend - surely that would be enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 What the hell are you on about Sorry, too many syllables ? The common lazy excuse in these parts last autumn for us not getting the quality CBs that even my Grandma could see we needed since the NPC home game against Reading was that sort of quality costs so much. Well, here we are, one year later, predicament confirmed, so I assume the excuse remains the same, so 30m will deffo not be enough accounting for strengthening in other positions too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 JUST moaning as normal Nope giving my opinion as to whether 30m is enough. Tough sh*t if you dont like it. 30m is enough if we get the proceeds from selling the Uruguayan Darren Anderton too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 At this stage I do not believe we need world class players, we just need o strengthen enough for top 6. We need to buy in several areas though, and if we are serious we need to spend out 55 million TV money I think. We need to get to the next level and for NC anything but top 6 will be. For me 8/10, and top 6 the year after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 If the news reports are accurate we seem to be intersted in £10-15m players from Seria A, so £30m won't go far. Hopefully our scouts are still able to spot a bargain or two. The teams that have suffered econd season syndrome, did they spend big or not enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 IMO the only way to avoid second season syndrome is juidicious use of the transfer market - the right player is more important than price, meaning this could get expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 27 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Who's talking about world class quality? Duncan, you may have missed hearing that the club's ambitions, as discussed since the meeting between Cortese and Katharina Leibherr are for European Football, widely thought to a target within two years. To achieve this Saints would need finish in the top 4 or 5 places in the Premier League, ahead of some of the present top six teams. All the top six teams have a spread of full international players many of whom will expect to be in their country's national teams for World Cup, European and other international tournaments. That, is what is meant by world class players and that is what Southampton has to compete against if the club really intends to break into that top group. Or perhaps it's just pie in the sky but the evidence will be when we see Cortese splash the cash, how much and on which players. If our signings are not 'world class' or with that potential, it would indicate that ambitions are mid-table rather than top six, so we shall see. It is true that we have one player widely thought to have world class potential in Luke Shaw, and he cost nothing, but unless there are others of that category coming through from the Academy, then the transfer market is where team strengthening must come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Have we ever bought and then sold a player for less than we paid since ML bought the club? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 The cost of purchasing a player is only part of the budget. The wage structure is just as significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Have we ever bought and then sold a player for less than we paid since ML bought the club? Just curious. We've hardly sold anyone - the majority of the players we bought in L1 are still on the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Even in the close season Alpine just cannot resist the urge to whinge and whine about something. much of it being ****** as ever.. " IMO the only way to avoid second season syndrome is juidicious use of the transfer market - the right player is more important than price, meaning this could get expensive. ___ Predicting doom already "the Uruguayan Darren Anderton" ___ Garbage!! "Well, here we are, one year later, predicament confirmed" ___ What predicament is confirmed... FFS.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 The cost of purchasing a player is only part of the budget. The wage structure is just as significant. Yeah this is key for me. It's all very well us splashing out a £20m transfer fee for one player, but Clubs like Man City, Chelsea etc... would have no problem throwing upwards of £100k a week at those kind of players, which we wouldn't even dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Even in the close season Alpine just cannot resist the urge to whinge and whine about something. much of it being ****** as ever.. " IMO the only way to avoid second season syndrome is juidicious use of the transfer market - the right player is more important than price, meaning this could get expensive. ___ Predicting doom already "the Uruguayan Darren Anderton" ___ Garbage!! "Well, here we are, one year later, predicament confirmed" ___ What predicament is confirmed... FFS.. Why worry mate? He constantly predicts doom and despair, yet is consistently wrong. I kind of use it as an indicator of what is going to happen. If he says something will happen, it probably won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Even in the close season Alpine just cannot resist the urge to whinge and whine about something. much of it being ****** as ever.. " IMO the only way to avoid second season syndrome is juidicious use of the transfer market - the right player is more important than price, meaning this could get expensive. ___ Predicting doom already "the Uruguayan Darren Anderton" ___ Garbage!! "Well, here we are, one year later, predicament confirmed" ___ What predicament is confirmed... FFS.. I know. Its amazing. Just be grateful you don't see the world through the same set of glasses as he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Sorry, too many syllables ? The common lazy excuse in these parts last autumn for us not getting the quality CBs that even my Grandma could see we needed since the NPC home game against Reading was that sort of quality costs so much. Well, here we are, one year later, predicament confirmed, so I assume the excuse remains the same, so 30m will deffo not be enough accounting for strengthening in other positions too Could your grandma also see that we were certain to be relegated when we went 1-0 down at Sunderland? Just trying to gauge how exceptional her footballing analysis is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 The cost of purchasing a player is only part of the budget. The wage structure is just as significant. This. Surely any budget agreed with the Liebherrs is simply a playing staff budget - combining transfers and wages. Or is the trust happy for us to pay limitless wages to anyone we sign on a free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Although Alpine does post a lot of stuff that winds me up, he hasn't said anything on this thread that is nonsensical or out of place has he? I think some people jump on his posts just for the sake of it (although describing Ramirez as the Uruguayan Darren Anderton was definitely an attempt to press some buttons). That aside, am I alone in feeling a tad uncomfortable with the whole premise of this thread? It only seems like yesterday that we didn't have a pot to pi $$ in, so worrying about £30m not being enough seems a bit crass. Dortmund didn't spend that much to go from also rans to Champions League finalists did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 A decent source told me on Wednesday that Cortese was told to work to a £91M budget but after 5 days negotiation that was increased to both parties satisfaction. Remember, that includes everything and is to be balanced, as far as possible, by all income. Another source told me yesterday that whist his sympathies lie with Benali who was shoddily treated by the club, he could have settled his dispute 18 months ago and only boosted his settlement by a little amount (I will not say how much) Both are pretty reliable, one being on the staff and the other a former director of SFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 A decent source told me on Wednesday that Cortese was told to work to a £91M budget but after 5 days negotiation that was increased to both parties satisfaction. Remember, that includes everything and is to be balanced, as far as possible, by all income. Another source told me yesterday that whist his sympathies lie with Benali who was shoddily treated by the club, he could have settled his dispute 18 months ago and only boosted his settlement by a little amount (I will not say how much) Both are pretty reliable, one being on the staff and the other a former director of SFC. Happy bloomin days!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Happy bloomin days!!!! Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Although Alpine does post a lot of stuff that winds me up, he hasn't said anything on this thread that is nonsensical or out of place has he? I think some people jump on his posts just for the sake of it (although describing Ramirez as the Uruguayan Darren Anderton was definitely an attempt to press some buttons). That aside, am I alone in feeling a tad uncomfortable with the whole premise of this thread? It only seems like yesterday that we didn't have a pot to pi $$ in, so worrying about £30m not being enough seems a bit crass. Dortmund didn't spend that much to go from also rans to Champions League finalists did they? I don't know how many times its going to take for this to sink in on here. It's not how much you spend, it's how well you spend it. One only needs to look at QPR to understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restark19 Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 I'd be happy with a new CB, back up LB (sell Fox), LW/RW and Hooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheCross Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 I'm not really sure that chucking £30M is enough to guarantee anything really, let alone top six. Liverpool finished 7th and they even nabbed Coutinho from us. I imagine they've spent a lot more than that. Below them, West Brom and Swansea haven't nipped out and spent zillions on world class talent, but make good use of what they have. They build their squad over some years. Getting to near safety, and being able to push on consistently would get us to that sort of level. Getting that consistency, and having the options and support available to do that may prove to be a better bet than blowing the pennies on a couple of new faces. The league is that close. If the players we have aren't capable of that, then it's going to take more that a season to change the faces around. If Ramirez and Shaw are sold (and we don't get him back on loan) then that's another two important first squad players we then have to take a chance on getting. Lots of ifs in suggesting what we actually need. Will Mayuka, Rodriguez, Ramirez, Lallana improve? Will Forren make it into the plans or will he be quietly shuffled off towards the exit? If the management decide that they are good enough then that's providing more choice at centre half and also giving Lambert a bit more support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 A decent source told me on Wednesday that Cortese was told to work to a £91M budget but after 5 days negotiation that was increased to both parties satisfaction. Remember, that includes everything and is to be balanced, as far as possible, by all income. Is that annual and including the stadium expansion? /ducks/ ;-) Any purchase of players is going to ammortised over more than a year, so depending on the capital cost versus wages we may well spend more than £30m on actual purchase costs. Bear in mind we're still catching up from being in L1 a very short time ago. We can certainly improve on this year's position with the existing players, even if that well-known footballing expert on this thread has written off Ramirez already... I wonder how the Astori transfer is coming along, I wonder if that will keep him happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Is it enough to improve upon this season's place? I'd like to think so, yes. Will it be enough to get us into this European place we apparently want? Probably not. Biggest question is whether or not it will be invested wisely. Consensus is that Ramirez was a disappointment for the money he cost, so if we want better players than him then by logic we have to spend more than £12 million on a single player. That's nearly half the budget gone immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 It's impossible to put a figure on the amount you need to splash out on transfer fees because so much of the budget nowadays is wages. Plus you could get a world class player on a free or spend 7mill on garbage. To get anywhere near 6th will would need strength in depth. I would say we would need top quality left and right back as cover. At least one top quality centre back. Decent competition for Lallana , back up for centre mid and a couple of class strikers. Good luck getting that for under £30mill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Is it enough to improve upon this season's place? I'd like to think so, yes. Will it be enough to get us into this European place we apparently want? Probably not. Biggest question is whether or not it will be invested wisely. Consensus is that Ramirez was a disappointment for the money he cost, so if we want better players than him then by logic we have to spend more than £12 million on a single player. That's nearly half the budget gone immediately. That's no logic at all. Wise investment can get you great players for very little money, and we've seen several examples of that in the league this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Nope giving my opinion as to whether 30m is enough. Tough sh*t if you dont like it. 30m is enough if we get the proceeds from selling the Uruguayan Darren Anderton too. Uruguayan Darren Anderton - you ***t. If Ramirez had come from our famous academy people on here would be hailing him as the next big thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Uruguayan Darren Anderton - you ***t. If Ramirez had come from our famous academy people on here would be hailing him as the next big thing. A fair point, but people make more of a point about the cash we invested in him and the return they think we should be getting. I wonder if they ever think about the time and effort we invest in coaching the academy kids when they come to nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvaughanwilliams Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 I think that the transfers in the summer this year will have a similar spread of cost to last summer. One 'marquee' signing who commands a fee of 1/3-1/2 our total spending, Ramirez last year. With several other signing in the range of £1m-£7m. I expect most of the players that we sign will be under 25 and bought because they have been identified as having potential with technical ability and are comfortable in possession. It wouldn't surprise me if half of the players brought in didn't make much impact in their first season with an intention of buying them when young, developing them in house and resulting in a player with a much higher value. This is a strategy that has a higher level of risk involved, but the lower transfer cost offsets some of this risk. It also seems to annoy a lot of people on this forum, judging by the comments about Mayuka and Forren. It wouldn't surprise me if there was someone on the scouting staff who fancies themselves as the next Nate Silver doing Bayesian analysis from scouting reports to identify underpriced players. Several of our recent transfers have a smell of 'Moneyball' about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 That's no logic at all. Wise investment can get you great players for very little money, and we've seen several examples of that in the league this season. Don't disagree with that, but an Astori (assuming he is as good as everyone says he is) costs more than a Yoshida for a reason. For every Ramirez there's the odd Michu though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 333 Ricardo Fullers. Sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvaughanwilliams Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Don't disagree with that, but an Astori (assuming he is as good as everyone says he is) costs more than a Yoshida for a reason. Price is determined by many more factors than the ability of a player. Did Samba cost more than the rumoured cost of Astori for a reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Personally I think Cortese has more than £30m to spend. I think it might be the original transfer budget + what ever he got after talks with Liebherr. Have a sneaky feeling he will get two big names in + 3-4 players in £4m-8m range.....and that the spending will be close to £50m in total... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Personally I think Cortese has more than £30m to spend. I think it might be the original transfer budget + what ever he got after talks with Liebherr. Have a sneaky feeling he will get two big names in + 3-4 players in £4m-8m range.....and that the spending will be close to £50m in total... Tend to agree. If winning promotion to the Premiership is quoted as being worth £120 million to a club, then I expect some money has to go back to the owners, they aren't in this for the fun of it, and you would still need some money available for January transfer window if required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 A decent source told me on Wednesday that Cortese was told to work to a £91M budget but after 5 days negotiation that was increased to both parties satisfaction. Remember, that includes everything and is to be balanced, as far as possible, by all income. Another source told me yesterday that whist his sympathies lie with Benali who was shoddily treated by the club, he could have settled his dispute 18 months ago and only boosted his settlement by a little amount (I will not say how much) Both are pretty reliable, one being on the staff and the other a former director of SFC. I can pretty much confirm, with 100% certainty to two decimal points, that the first part of this assertion is total and utter b0ll0cks. If the "budget" was £91m, we have spent a lot of that already on player salaries (and the new contracts that so many have signed are high). As for the second part re: Benali, I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 I hate to point this out 'professor' but we aren't a top 6 club. You didn't read that bit where he said: "we would seem to be well outside the top 6"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 27 May, 2013 Share Posted 27 May, 2013 Personally I think Cortese has more than £30m to spend. I think it might be the original transfer budget + what ever he got after talks with Liebherr. Have a sneaky feeling he will get two big names in + 3-4 players in £4m-8m range.....and that the spending will be close to £50m in total... I'm going to persist. It's not transfer fees. It's a playing staff budget. If, for example, we get rid of 15 of our players - on frees - we probably save ourselves £25m of total liabilities (over 2+ years) That doesn't, however, just get added to some fanboy imaginary "transfer pot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 28 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 28 May, 2013 I'm going to persist. It's not transfer fees. It's a playing staff budget. If, for example, we get rid of 15 of our players - on frees - we probably save ourselves £25m of total liabilities (over 2+ years) That doesn't, however, just get added to some fanboy imaginary "transfer pot". Total spend on players wages is a different issue, as is the fact that many transfer fees are spread over payment by instalments. The point here is the 'transfer value' of the players we recruit. The up-front value of the players that the top 4 clubs sign is often seen as an indication of their continuing ambition, so that is the measure being used here, not the total playing budget which is much harder, if not impossible, to use for comparison purposes. A couple of players in the £12m+ range would be more of an indication than just one, whereas you could argue that signings at £2m - £4m don't tell you a lot as that is probably the going rate for an average premier level player. Some signings at that lower level may prove to be very good, such as JRod and some less so, but it is the higher value signings that tell you more about ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 28 May, 2013 Share Posted 28 May, 2013 I can pretty much confirm, with 100% certainty to two decimal points, that the first part of this assertion is total and utter b0ll0cks. If the "budget" was £91m, we have spent a lot of that already on player salaries (and the new contracts that so many have signed are high). As for the second part re: Benali, I have no idea.I would not have posted it if it was b0llocks. Give me some credit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Ash Posted 28 May, 2013 Share Posted 28 May, 2013 Was the 91m inclusive of all current playing staff wages as well as budget for purchases? If so that isn't much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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