Are the ends more important than the means to you?

[buctootim]

Imo fundamentally the debate is not really down to the personality and attributes of Cortese, its about what kind of club you want. Does it matter if you buy in success or are ruthless in the process. Is it a good thing to be in a hurry, or do you enjoy it more if you develop and nurture something good over time? Is success at any price a price worth paying or is the way you run the club important too?

 

IMO Cortese wants CL football and he wants it fast. As we cant do it now with the players we have we'll need to spend very big to achieve that goal. We'll have to buy in success by throwing money at it, money the club isn't generating itself, but money given to it by a woman trying to honour a dead man's wishes. We'll buy in talent that is primarily motivated by money and perhaps sack a manager every time we go to the next stage of the 'project'. That is inconsistent with an ethos of developing talent through the academy and having them play long term for the team - why should they display any loyalty if Chelsea and Arsenal come in and offer more money, prestige and guaranteed CL football, not just the prospect of it?

 

I don't really see much to admire in that model, in fact imo it epitomises all that has become wrong with top end football. Personally I'd much rather emulate Norwich and Swansea, but do it even better than them and aim to be an Everton. Success gained from strong team spirit and the team being stronger than the parts. Astute eye for a player and development. I like seeing players like Morgan develop over time, £1m Chelsea rejects like Jack Cork flourish when given the chance. I like seeing gradual incremental and above all sustainable progress made over time. And I like seeing interviews with players and managers who can convey their thoughts in English.

 

Parachuting in big names without proper regard for how they will adapt and fit into the team, sacking managers regularly, relying on £30m injections of cash - meh. It may get success faster, it could even get a bit of CL football for a while but it wont get you it sustainably - what happens when the money runs out? Personally I'd be happier with the occasional FA cup win and maybe qualifying for the Europa cup once in while, as long as its done relying on the academy and smart buying, not big buying.

 

Developing something from nothing and punching above your weight is what gives pride and gets respect. Being the fat old rich guy with the big breasted leased bimbo, not so much.

Edited 21 May, 2013 by buctootim

[Batman]

are we not developing too. Shaw, Lallana, JWP etc?

lets see if we actually get any 'big names' first

[buctootim]

are we not developing too. Shaw, Lallana, JWP etc?

lets see if we actually get any 'big names' first

 

We are, and that's great. I just think its going to be very hard to get them to stay if 1. they get a better offer from elsewhere and the club isn't demonstrating the loyalty to others that the club is demanding from them. 2. Their opportunities to play are restricted by parachuting in large amounts of external talent.

[Batman]

We are, and that's great. I just think its going to be very hard to get them to stay if 1. they get a better offer from elsewhere and the club isn't demonstrating the loyalty to others that the club is demanding from them. 2. Their opportunities to play are restricted by parachuting in large amounts of external talent.

 

1. the exact same for every club

2. the exact same for every club

 

we just have to hope we keep said players for longer than normal/keep 1 or 2 for good.

 

if clyne went to man united, what is to say number 2 wont happen there and he eventually gets loaned out to stoke?

[saintbob40]

Bit of a tightrope walk between selling your club’s soul (with a bunch of couldn’t care less mercenaries arriving (e.g. QPR) ) and risking stagnation. The interesting point here is that we have got a developing bunch of young players who could get to CL standard in the next couple of years ( e.g Shaw, Clyne, Yoshida, Cork, Morgan, Lallana, Jay, Ramirez, JWP). With 3 or 4 shrewd signings ( two CBs, one CM, one SRL type focal point attacker)and I do not think we will be far off. Also a lot of these players have learnt their trade in the lower divisions and have a humility about them which will aid ther learning process.

 

We are in a pretty unusual and situation. First we need to get Shaw and Cork tied down to long term deals and then add the quality.

[buctootim]

Bit of a tightrope walk between selling your club’s soul (with a bunch of couldn’t care less mercenaries arriving (e.g. QPR) ) and risking stagnation. The interesting point here is that we have got a developing bunch of young players who could get to CL standard in the next couple of years ( e.g Shaw, Clyne, Yoshida, Cork, Morgan, Lallana, Jay, Ramirez, JWP). With 3 or 4 shrewd signings ( two CBs, one CM, one SRL type focal point attacker)and I do not think we will be far off. Also a lot of these players have learnt their trade in the lower divisions and have a humility about them which will aid ther learning process.

 

We are in a pretty unusual and situation. First we need to get Shaw and Cork tied down to long term deals and then add the quality.

 

The point about learning their trade in the lower leagues is key for me. Many of our best players have been those who who appeared in the championship team of the season last year who came to Saints to improve their opportunities. Its generated a high energy, united team. Id much rather continue to do that, developing our own youth and buying in young quality that needs finishing for £2-8m than importing 'star' foreign players for £10-£20m who have a different motivation for being here.

[Dig Dig]

The approach has always been to develop youth complimented by seasoned talent.

 

Why does the OP think that this approach has changed? Our signings to date have supported this.

[Sour Mash]

are we not developing too. Shaw, Lallana, JWP etc?

lets see if we actually get any 'big names' first

Lallana and JWP won't have too much of a part in delivering European football for us I'm afraid.

[Dig Dig]

Lallana and JWP won't have too much of a part in delivering European football for us I'm afraid.

 

Why don't you rate JWP? He got very good reviews when up against Man Utd and City earlier in the season.

[Smirking_Saint]

The approach has always been to develop youth complimented by seasoned talent.

 

Why does the OP think that this approach has changed? Our signings to date have supported this.

 

This is my thoughts, there really isnt any room for sentiment in football either, to improve you must buy better. I really dont see why that is an issue unless you are content with sitting still, all the clubs around us will improve if given the chance, and most if given the oppurtunity that the Liebherrs have given us with the ambition that Cortese has for us would not turn up that chance.

 

Unless of course you want life back in the lower echeolons, where clubs were more 'grounded' as top level ambition was beyond reach, well, there are clubs down the road which can accomodate you

[Doctoroncall]

Nurturing our own talent should be the priority, to get some affinity with the club. Otherwise I think we should have the philosophy of recruiting players with good character and ability, be it from the lower leagues or unfancied foreign leagues so not costing the earth. I don't care for big names, those obvious candidates with PL experience, or cast-offs from the big four first team. A sustainable and growing future rather than the big splash and hope to maintain it.

The player's character has got to be spot on - determined to get better, play as a team, try and win each and every match, not those happy with mid-table while picking up a handsome pay cheque.

[Saint_clark]

Ever since Cortese has come to the club it's been spoken about how we want to sign players with the right attitude. It's been suggested before that some signings have fallen through because those players weren't the type of people we wanted at the club. I'm not worried about that changing now.

[Olallana]

There is also a factor of learning their trade that it´s easier doing that in a team that gets promoted cause they have been playing together for a year or two.

Harder for a player in lower leagues to go to a new team in PL and make an impact, that often takes time and many players fail in that switch cause it´s a new system they have to learn or that they just aren´t good enough....

 

I think there is a lot of players that could be deemed to be "too good for championship" but at the same time "not good enough for Premier League"....

[buctootim]

The approach has always been to develop youth complimented by seasoned talent.

 

Why does the OP think that this approach has changed? Our signings to date have supported this.

 

Some fit that pattern - Boruc was clearly a great signing - free and much better than what we had. Gaston was the wrong signing for where we were and what we needed at the time - a young £13m speculative gamble unable to converse with team mates with a (allegedly) want away girlfriend.

Edited 21 May, 2013 by buctootim

[UpweySaint]

I suppose for me it comes down to what the alternatives are.

 

If we could run the club in a different way without plummeting back down the leagues then it'd be great to do things "the right way" and maybe have a fans trust instead of NC and external investment however to survive, and compete, in english football at a decent level this does not seem possible.

 

Cortese will stick to the principles of investment in the academy and this has been evidenced by the staplewood development and the appt of a manager with a rep for developing young players while hopefully he'l push us towards being "sustainable" (though how realistic that is alongside aiming for european football is iffy!). It's sort of better the devil you know with NC for me, as much as I think he's made mistakes he's no Rupert!

[JPTCount]

but we havnt just thrown money at the problem so far, we've spent wisely. lambert and fonte were huge signings but look how far they've carried the team.

 

Even Jay rod has come good this year, and certainly justified his price tag. £6m looks a snip now. gaston still divides opinion....

 

It's hard to compare us to other clubs who have done this, chairmen who have pumped money in, chelsea already had european football, city were in financial disarray but had a new stadium, pompey just didn't spend on infrastructure, wigan don't have the support, al fayed got bored, and most of the rest dont have a clue about football but have bottomless pockets (blackburn & qpr). the good are far too far between, but they have been good solid businessmen. like madjeski, rather than keep pumping money in, he took a good offer and sold up. same with manderic. and the best money pumping chairman has to be jack walker, born in the city, built a new stadium, won a league title and made a stonking profit on alan shearer.

 

When u look at the whole picture we come in better than alot of clubs before u add in Cortese. Pumping money is not a business plan, and we have no idea really how he runs his operation. The man behind the means is much more important than the means itself, delivery of the same methods from two people can Wilde very different results. I think the day out at wembley really made him think about the potential the club has. If the alternative is going back to being a profitable mid table premiership team, then i'd rather have this... Even if we go bankrupt again it's been an amazing ride, far more exhilarating than the first time we did it.

 

There are no certainties in football, in NC we trust.

[Sour Mash]

I suppose for me it comes down to what the alternatives are.

 

If we could run the club in a different way without plummeting back down the leagues then it'd be great to do things "the right way" and maybe have a fans trust instead of NC and external investment however to survive, and compete, in english football at a decent level this does not seem possible.

 

Cortese will stick to the principles of investment in the academy and this has been evidenced by the staplewood development and the appt of a manager with a rep for developing young players while hopefully he'l push us towards being "sustainable" (though how realistic that is alongside aiming for european football is iffy!). It's sort of better the devil you know with NC for me, as much as I think he's made mistakes he's no Rupert!

Plenty of clubs are able to survive and compete in the Prem without shed loads of spending - why is the only alternative plummeting down the leagues?

[buctootim]

d the best money pumping chairman has to be jack walker, born in the city, built a new stadium, won a league title and made a stonking profit on alan shearer.

 

If the alternative is going back to being a profitable mid table premiership team, then i'd rather have this... Even if we go bankrupt again it's been an amazing ride, far more exhilarating than the first time we did it.

 

Your post exemplifies the views of many fans - spend the cash don't worry about when it runs out. Jack Walker blew most of the family fortune, even to the extent of his family taking him to court to stop him spending. Yes Blackburn had their day in the sun but where are they now? Could and should Walker have set up a much more sustainable model instead?

 

As for the 2nd paragraph, Pompey show how that can work out.

Edited 21 May, 2013 by buctootim

[pap]

A common strategy in project planning is working your way back from where you ultimately want to be.

 

The endpoint is all important. If the eventual goal is Champions League football, then you formulate a plan to get there. How have other teams done it? Which strategies were successful?

 

Bit of a chicken and egg answer, but the best way to get into the Champions League is to already be in the Champions League How many times have footballers moved to get themselves onto the biggest stage? That doesn't really help us. Sad as it is to say, almost exclusively, money is probably the answer. I'm not sure that Swansea and Norwich are actually the best examples for comparison. I'd look at Everton instead. Here's a club, which is doing stuff all the right way and has had long term stability. A bigger club than Swansea or Norwich, and yet they only managed CL qualification once through Moyes. With a bit of cash, they might have cemented their place in the top four. It never came, so they never did. Their manager has now left and tough times lie ahead for Everton.

 

My point? They hit a glass ceiling and that was funding. Football has very few winners. That's why so much money is spent to get in amongst them. If you want success, it comes at a big price.

[trousers]

As long as we don't end up shafting tax payers, charities, businesses and players I'm at ease with giving Cortese's "fast-track" approach a go. I'd rather look back in 10 years (when perhaps Cortese and the Liebherrs have ridden off into the sunset) and say "well that was a blast" after a few years spent trying (and maybe succeeding) to infiltrate the higher echelons of the Premier League and Europe than to have pootled along as a mid-to-lower table side.

 

Yes, I'm fully aware this sounds like the success model deployed by Pompey over the last 10 years but the key difference is that the money supposedly being thrown Cortese's way is 'clean' and not at the expense of the tax payer et al.

 

Let's enjoy the ride for a few years. It's only a game after all...

[UpweySaint]

Plenty of clubs are able to survive and compete in the Prem without shed loads of spending - why is the only alternative plummeting down the leagues?

 

Most clubs in the premier league rely on external investment of one form or another or benefit from massive global appeal to flog merchandise abroad.

 

Did not say anything spending shed loads but a club run self sufficiently that can actually not run at an operating loss is a damned rare thing.

 

It may be possible there is an alternative but, until it's forthcoming, im happy to stick with NC.

[View From The Top]

As long as we don't run up any debt I'm relaxed about it and I don't think we'd be spending like we are on the academy if NC didn't think it'll pay off in the medium/long term.

[Smirking_Saint]

Lallana and JWP won't have too much of a part in delivering European football for us I'm afraid.

 

At 17 and only a few games Id say its probably a bit early to be writing off young James just yet

[saintbob40]

Bottom line is we have beaten Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea (+ a draw away) this season and drawn with Arsenal-frightening the life out of Man Utd twice and Spurs (Away) in the process. We can currently compete at the top level therefore but not perhaps week in week out due to primarily a lack of quality and depth in defence particularly. We just need another 4 or so the right side of 25, who fit in personality wise and want to improve (i.e not fat and happy on massive wages already e.g Sunderland)and like weeks on end of grey skies, rain and soggy chips(!).

[Sour Mash]

Most clubs in the premier league rely on external investment of one form or another or benefit from massive global appeal to flog merchandise abroad.

 

Did not say anything spending shed loads but a club run self sufficiently that can actually not run at an operating loss is a damned rare thing.

 

It may be possible there is an alternative but, until it's forthcoming, im happy to stick with NC.

Off the top of my head Swansea and West Brom. How are they getting on?

[Sour Mash]

At 17 and only a few games Id say its probably a bit early to be writing off young James just yet

He's not 17. We're talking about getting into Europe in the next two years, so it's not a case of writing off his whole career.

[Frank's cousin]

What kind of club do we want?

 

I think the OP asks a very interesting question, BUT I would say there is a bigger fundemental question to ask first, and that kind of dictates or limits the options in the policy or strategy NC can adopt or implement.

 

That question revolves around 'what is the purpose of a club in a league?' is it to be satisfied with your position, gracefully accepting your share of the prem riches as some clubs seem happy to do, and thus operating a policy of survival at any cost, including that of any 'style' in your play, or is the whole purpose to to be the very best... to try and do what you can to win the darn thing no matter what the so called odds against it are? For me the premise has to be that you aim to win it - otherwise what is the point if you are happy making up the numbers?

 

OK, so you might agree but worry about the pace with which a club looks to achieve their ambitions... afterall no one is really happy with the Chelseas/Man City sling loads of money at it approach... but this is where the problem lies. As others have stated, Saints is always been about developing good homegrown talent supplemented by a few select experienced players.... its been indicated that this will not change - and that is good. BUT what we need to be able to do is two things - Hold onto the best youth, at least until they actually reach their full potential, AND step up the Quality of those we do buy in to supplement this. BOth of these require increases in cash we are prepared to spend on the playing staff in transfer fees and wages over an above what we have traditionally been willing or able to to.

 

There is also the issue of whether younger players will be willing to wait for us to become a more successful side (the 'want it now culture driven by agents etc does not help) and whether teh better quality transfers are willing to be part of a 'project' as opposed to again getting it today. So this increases the pressure on teh club to accelerate the progress, to ensure we can at least try and keep teh best youth, and attract teh next levcel of quality in the transfer market.... chicken and egg, vicious circle etc, call it what you want, but at least you can undersatnd the rational for NC wanting to accelerate progress... wait too long and you go backwards as youth lose patience...

 

I dont believe NC with teh backing of the Liebherr's is looking to change the tried and tested youth + quality additions approach, just up our game to be in a position to retain the best kids longer and attract a higher quality player... of the right attitude. And that is simply not possible without a committment from the owners to invest in the infrastructure and playing staff, until we are in a position to benefit financially from the Euro pot and increased Prem cash from better finishing on a regular basis.

 

Of course this is set against the same desire of many other clubs as well, all trying to do the smae thing, so no one said it would be easy, but if you think about it, our rise these last few years has been precisely based on team ethic, the right type of characters bonding and growing as a unit... and so far it seems that this is the approach we wish to retain.

[Smirking_Saint]

He's not 17. We're talking about getting into Europe in the next two years, so it's not a case of writing off his whole career.

 

My bad, he is 18, and I can certainly see him being a decent addition to compliment the team, and with some of those that have played in Europe I can certainly see JWP doing it

[JPTCount]

Your post exemplifies the views of many fans - spend the cash don't worry about when it runs out. Jack Walker blew most of the family fortune, even to the extent of his family taking him to court to stop him spending. Yes Blackburn had their day in the sun but where are they now? Could and should Walker have set up a much more sustainable model instead?

 

As for the 2nd paragraph, Pompey show how that can work out.

 

I'm not part of the group who don't care about when the money runs out, just pointing out that our investment so far has more than yielded a profit. we are already spending on infrastructure too, and development. Obviously there is a line where you have to stop throwing money at something but we havnt reached that point yet. In a few seasons we can judge but you can be equally speculative towards both outcomes, CL would bring in so many more millions, versus bankruptcy.

 

Jack walker blew his fortune! And the club are in a much better position now than had he not been involved. He's been dead 13 years so you really can't blame him for venkis. And even with the best laid plans people will come in and change stuff, unless you can leave ur man with the plans

[Frank's cousin]

... same policy, culture , just within a bigger budget... not sure how that can be considered wrong in any way....

[shurlock]

The means are partly built into the ends- we're signing youngish players with promise not only because they will help us succeed but because they should appreciate in value, covering costs and hopefully giving us a nice little return.

 

In theory, there's no conflict between means and ends.

[buctootim]

Jack walker blew his fortune! And the club are in a much better position now than had he not been involved. He's been dead 13 years so you really can't blame him for venkis.

 

Well Markus has been dead for three years, so I make that only ten years before we are floundering in the championship with the Venkeys, and we haven't won the league or qualified for the CL yet!

Edited 21 May, 2013 by buctootim
apostrophes

[Colinjb]

Do I want a club that spends money without regard in an attempt to be successful and **** the consequences if things go wrong? No.

 

Would I be happy supporting a club which is propped up by a businessman/estate who can support our ongoing ambitions for success even if it may be a little beyond what the club could achieve if it had to be self sustaining? Yes

[Brussels Saint]

My guess is the long term model will follow the lines of 2-3 big signings per year and the rest from nurturing within the club.

Following such a route would allow maybe net spending of 35m a year on transfers of players with asset value and all other investment in the academy/stadium etc.

That is a fairly sustainable model you would imagine given the PL income and should deliver a consistent top 8 finish with Cups, European football and an outside bet of fluking a CL place.

The next couple of years only, might take a bit more investment to get to that level of stability.

 

I'm not convinced NC expects regular CL football, he is not an idiot and will understand the financial muscle of United, City, Chelsea & to an extent Arsenal and what that brings.

However to maybe sneak once a CL place is not beyond the possibility of this club whilst maintaining its soul and financial security and might meet the plans he and Markus dreamt of near the end.

 

In response to the original post, so long as we dont incur huge debts, pretty much anything else is ok in order to achieve success on the pitch. I am certainly not worried if the manager or players speak English, so long as they entertain me with fabulous ability on the pitch.

[UpweySaint]

Off the top of my head Swansea and West Brom. How are they getting on?

 

Oh come on I said most. Swansea i'l give you but they are surely an exception to the rule?

 

While WBA have recieved investment from Pearce and co albeit not to the tune of the usual oil millions chucked around I concede.

 

If Pearce or Jenkins or a saints supporting equivalent felt they could run the club sustainably while managing to keep us making progress by all means i'd be ok with that.

 

I think we need to remember exactly where we came from and how much of the investment has gone into infrastructure to help push us towards being "sustainable".

 

One day I hope, and honestly believe, there is nothing to say we couldn't go down the route of WBA and Swansea however we still have ground to make up for sure.

[Sour Mash]

Oh come on I said most. Swansea i'l give you but they are surely an exception to the rule?

 

While WBA have recieved investment from Pearce and co albeit not to the tune of the usual oil millions chucked around I concede.

 

If Pearce or Jenkins or a saints supporting equivalent felt they could run the club sustainably while managing to keep us making progress by all means i'd be ok with that.

 

I think we need to remember exactly where we came from and how much of the investment has gone into infrastructure to help push us towards being "sustainable".

 

One day I hope, and honestly believe, there is nothing to say we couldn't go down the route of WBA and Swansea however we still have ground to make up for sure.

I'm genuinely not sure what your point is to be honest.

[mulletsaint]

There is also the issue of whether younger players will be willing to wait for us to become a more successful side (the 'want it now culture driven by agents etc does not help) and whether teh better quality transfers are willing to be part of a 'project' as opposed to again getting it today. So this increases the pressure on teh club to accelerate the progress' date=' to ensure we can at least try and keep teh best youth, and attract teh next levcel of quality in the transfer market.... chicken and egg, vicious circle etc, call it what you want, but at least you can undersatnd the rational for NC wanting to accelerate progress... wait too long and you go backwards as youth lose patience...[/quote']

 

This was going to be my point. Maybe Cortese thinks the quicker we achieve European football the safer the cream of the crop of our academy graduates will be from bigger clubs.

[UpweySaint]

I'm genuinely not sure what your point is to be honest.

 

That we cant be Swansea or WBA overnight. They both needed investment to get to where they are.

 

I was agreeing with you that the way they run the show is desirable however I dont think we would be able to be anything like as self sustaining in our current state and will continue to rely on external investment for some time.

 

Apologies for not being clear and concise, exam season, hopefully that was a little clearer.

[CB Fry]

That we cant be Swansea or WBA overnight. They both needed investment to get to where they are.

 

I was agreeing with you that the way they run the show is desirable however I dont think we would be able to be anything like as self sustaining in our current state and will continue to rely on external investment for some time.

 

Apologies for not being clear and concise, exam season, hopefully that was a little clearer.

 

 

I would suggest we have already outspent WBA and Swansea in one season back up.

 

I honestly don't get where they have needed "investment" that we couldn't match.

 

In theory Saints could finish mid table and be sustainable. Lowe (calm down everyone) achieved it for several seasons, even turning a small profit, and that was in an era of lower TV money.

 

It can be done. Probably won't get you top four, but you could compete.

[aintforever]

The quicker the better, doesn't matter how it happens IMO.

 

My concern is about the level of debt. If we start splashing out big money chances are, just like at pompey, it will have to be paid back at some point further down the line. It would be naive to automatically expect it to be gifted by the Leibherrs.

 

I know the cult won't like it but if spending gets silly we should ask questions.

[Dalek2003]

Survival in the top league is all that mattered, hence my support for Hoddle in 2004.

This was a vote for the man to do a job, not the man himself. Clearly others thought differently !

 

BTW I am not trolling but may well get an infraction for this.

[UpweySaint]

I would suggest we have already outspent WBA and Swansea in one season back up.

 

I honestly don't get where they have needed "investment" that we couldn't match.

 

In theory Saints could finish mid table and be sustainable. Lowe (calm down everyone) achieved it for several seasons, even turning a small profit, and that was in an era of lower TV money.

 

It can be done. Probably won't get you top four, but you could compete.

 

Respect your opinion but disagree. There is a reason so many clubs are in debt or struggling to survive. Premiership revenue helps and, now we've secured that, its not unreasonable to suggest we could try to balance our books from here on out.

 

Swansea and WBA have both recruited v well and, if we can do similar, no reason to think we couldnt carry on without significant investment.

 

A bit more backing, 40k ish seats, wise money in marketing to promote our brand (feel dirty saying that but thats the way of the world), a few additions to the squad and a continued excellence from our academy with a top notch recruiting team we could do just nicely!

 

Im just a realist and think we could do with more money in the short term for long term established success

[DuncanRG]

They've said, again and again, that young academy players will get a chance at this club. That's been proven this season and will continue into the future.

[ericb]

Interesting how no ones mentioning the £30m loan we took out and still need to pay back. That's there already so whatever we have to spend will he after that which means a lot less cash than people assume.

 

As for rising quick as much as I want to see success having the soul of our club tipped out by us becoming a brand, getting glory hunting fans from all over the country (not to mention overseas) sits really badly with me.

 

Diluting the atmosphere with another 10,000 people wanting to go to the club shop feels like a failure to me. Despite the success it'd bring on the pitch.

 

Mind you maybe I'm just a relic of the dell sized mentality that liked being able to see a saints shirt outside of Southampton and be able to have a chat with them about our city. Since at the end of the day that's what a football club is, an extension of your civic pride.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

An interesting thread. For me when you support your team you want to develop an affinity to something more than just their existence - its nice to have other aspects of it that you can be proud of. The challenge here is that due to the amount of money in the game now clubs are run more like businesses and the relationship that supporters have with them changes. We're unique in that clubs have a captive audience, but the level of engagement can vary. The money and turnover of players / Managers also makes it hard at times to develop a connection with what is going on.

 

It is all very well saying slow and steady progress however I think that becomes harder every year in football. Slow progress means you lose your better players most years as the big boys come knocking, and without the financial means to retain them a slow progress places a massive stress on recruitment and it is very very hard to always get transfers right.

 

Many aspects of the club have changed since we got relegated from the Premier League, however I am quite excited by the new ownership. It is undoubtedly underpinned by financial means however the club has invested in many areas and not just the first team. Much of it is invested in the framework that the club wants to operate once we're as good as we can viably be.

 

For me as a supporter there is nothing I like more than seeing youth products make progress and contribute to the first team. I think that has defined our club as much as anything else the past three or four decades. It's been a common thread throughout promotions, relegations, 'boring' seasons, and ownerships. It also appears to be at the heart of the club in the new era. No doubt we want to progress quickly but the opportunities are there if you are good enough. I'm proud that our Captain is a youth product. I'm proud that we've had the balls to ask a couple of 17 year olds to significantly contribute to our first season back in the Premier League. I'm proud that our Academy is made up of talents from the South (not imported kids from other countries) that reflect our catchment area and we were one of only two teams to have both the Under 18's and Under 21's qualify for the Elite Group stage of their respective competitions.

 

As long as we retain that element of our identity, I am not too worried about the rest. If we ever treated the Academy like it wasn't the future then I'd become a bit less engaged. To be blunt it takes a lot of money to make progress in the Premier League, and if you have it then it makes sense to use it to advance quickly. I think we just have to accept that. But a long as our progress continues to have contribution from players that we developed in our Academy I'll be delighted.

[Gemmel]

Interesting how no ones mentioning the £30m loan we took out and still need to pay back. .

 

What 30 million pound loan is that then..... Have you been listening to portsmyth fans again.

 

If you are referring to loan from the BVI company, the very consistently right "Swiss Rambler" has the loan at 3.2 million and I would guess that if it hasn't been paid back already, once the 44 fats ones hits our bank account, it wont be very long before it is.

[trousers]

Interesting how no ones mentioning the £30m loan we took out and still need to pay back.

 

When did we borrow £30m...?

 

Edit: Gemmel beat me to it.

[trousers]

What 30 million pound loan is that then..... Have you been listening to portsmyth fans again.

 

If you are referring to loan from the BVI company, the very consistently right "Swiss Rambler" has the loan at 3.2 million and I would guess that if it hasn't been paid back already, once the 44 fats ones hits our bank account, it wont be very long before it is.

 

Companies House website still shows the charge as 'outstanding'...

 

[buctootim]

What 30 million pound loan is that then..... Have you been listening to portsmyth fans again.

 

If you are referring to loan from the BVI company, the very consistently right "Swiss Rambler" has the loan at 3.2 million and I would guess that if it hasn't been paid back already, once the 44 fats ones hits our bank account, it wont be very long before it is.

 

When did we borrow £30m...?

 

Edit: Gemmel beat me to it.

 

I imagine he is referring to the c£30m (or £43m nett of Oxo) which was put in by the owner but now converted to equity.

[buctootim]

For me when you support your team you want to develop an affinity to something more than just their existence - its nice to have other aspects of it that you can be proud of. The challenge here is that due to the amount of money in the game now clubs are run more like businesses and the relationship that supporters have with them changes. We're unique in that clubs have a captive audience, but the level of engagement can vary. The money and turnover of players / Managers also makes it hard at times to develop a connection with what is going on.

 

If we ever treated the Academy like it wasn't the future then I'd become a bit less engaged. To be blunt it takes a lot of money to make progress in the Premier League, and if you have it then it makes sense to use it to advance quickly. I think we just have to accept that. But a long as our progress continues to have contribution from players that we developed in our Academy I'll be delighted.

 

I agree totally about the need to feel affinity and to have something you can feel proud of. The problem is of course that the higher up the food chain a club goes then the chances for the academy product tend to become fewer and fewer ala Chelsea and Man City.