WUMs v Happy Clappies: A psychological analysis

[SaintBobby]

I hope we can all now agree it's been a pretty fantastic season (as were the last two).

 

But, hell's teeth, it's been a grim and depressing time on SWF.

 

A (fairly small) number of regular posters have been consistent in their pessimism about the status and future of the club. There seems to be a split between "wind up merchants" and "happy clappies" (I think most fans probably fall between the two, but lean more to the latter).

 

The psychology of both sets of posters is, IMHO, fascinating - both in terms of trying to understand Saints fans and in terms of understanding the way an internet forum works.

 

My first thought would be that the "WUMs" are keen to be "fleetingly" definite. Amongst the most hilarious (but probably not genuinely believed) "WUM" assertions this year have been:

 

1. "We are going down". A thread started by an individual about two minutes before we fully confirmed our Premiership status. As it turns out, even if we had gone on to lose 15-0 and deliberately scored a shedload of own goals we wouldn't have been going down anyway. We have, actually, been safe for weeks. This is an interesting and typical narrative from the WUMs/pessmists. The thread was not titled "OMG, might we blow it and get relegated?" or "Yikes, this is looking dicey". Oh no. It was "We are going down". No room for doubt. Certainty is asserted. And then shown to be mad. The individual then claims to have been "angry" and expects everyone to forgive and forget. Mr Wrong walking down False Street whilst trying to prove how utterly incorrect he was could not possibly top this.

 

2. "Saints will not add to our 39 points and will therefore be relegated". This was an especially bizarre meme. Firstly, the chances of Saints not getting any points in our last few games was pretty low (although our recent results have, indeed, been disappointing). But, secondly, this was exacerbated by a number of truly strange claims. Including "I am certain that Wigan will beat Arsenal, although I may end up being wrong" and "I still think we will finish on 39 points and be relegated but I accept this is unlikely now".

 

3. "West Ham are as likely to be relegated as Manchester United." Both these teams are staying up. No real surprise. But the assertion is clearly false.

 

4. "We won't finish in the top ten and anyone who says we will is mental". The first part of this assertion is likely to end up being true. The second part rather less so. You almost fear that those who have pegged their colours to this mast are now personally desperate for Saints to finish 11th or below to retain some shred of personal credibility. A last minute Reading winner at Upton Park on Sunday might be a real choker for them.

 

However, on the happy clappy side, whilst there isn't the same level of expressed total certainty, there is still a smidgen of mania.

 

1. A push for Europe. Yeah, I guess this could happen if every single thing falls our way, you could just about imagine Saints finishing 7th next year and stealing a Europa League place by a whisker. But this has to be at the insanely high end of expectations, it can't really be called a "target".

 

2. The upwards trajectory is the norm and will continue as a force of nature. There's no obvious sense that we might have peaked and that our natural position is somewhere between 14th and 30th in the English league system. The assumption is that if we were 46th two years back, 22nd last year and 14th this season, then surely we're heading upwards next year too. Sadly, this just ain't so.

 

3. Bad news is "no news". Worrying stuff reported in, say, the Times is tittle tattle. If it's negative, let's try and explain it away. But if Paul Allen is sailing in to pour several billion into the club, according to the Guardian, let's uncork the champers and believe it's true.

 

The reason things get so fraught on here is that whilst the majority are in neither camp, there's a centripetal force embedding each side into their trenches and a determination to adopt more and more extreme positions and swipe at the other side.

 

How do we stop this lunacy? Or do we even want to?

[There when Franny scored]

An interesting and succinct summary Saintbobby and I agree that it is a fascinating microcosm into the minds of Saints fans and internet forum users, more so internet forum users perhaps.

 

It is almost a written rule that after a certain number of pages some sort of antagonism will develop between the two "camps" and the really interesting aspect of this from an anthropological perspective is as follows:

 

Most of the users are perfectly content to absorb an element of mockery, but you are absolutely correct that things tend to escalate and sour when people are rebuked for being overly positive ("happy clapper") or irrationally negative ("bed wetter"). The general point at which jovial banter becomes something that people take exception to is when it is aimed at something that that person considers part of their identity. To put in another way, most people won't be offended when engaging in banter that is tangential to what they consider to be their core personality traits. However, if it attacks something they consider to be a fundamental part of their persona (an obvious one is religion) then they will react to defend their "identity". Now, the way in which some posters react to an affront aimed at their positivity or negativity is consistent with what they perceive to be an attack on their identity.

 

The really fascinating aspect of this dialogical analysis is that in almost all cases nobody knows who these people actually are. This poses the question, how can it be that a poster feels his identity is being attacked when he is anonymous?

 

That is too complex a question for me, but it does indeed display an intriguing contradiction of human nature.

 

To address the better question for practical, quotidian purposes posed at the end of your post, i.e. what should we do about this or do we want to?

 

From my perspective, now and again I don’t mind observing as the drama unfolds and sometimes it’s quite funny as you have some forum users who are genuinely just on a wind-up interspersed with the “identity based” posters (e.g. Dalek). However, when you actually want to find out something it can be tedious to scroll through hundreds of posts regurgitating the same arguments ad nauseam. For example, I am pretty concerned that NC will leave, but it’s difficult to get much sense out of the post on that topic anymore.

[ericofarabia]

Oh dear ... the season hasn't even finished yet.

 

I hate it when there aren't any games to moan about.

Going to be a long close season methinks.

[70's Mike]

Oh dear ... the season hasn't even finished yet.

 

I hate it when there aren't any games to moan about.

Going to be a long close season methinks.

 

Agreed used to be a time when football was about enjoying, having a laugh etc not analysing peoples behaviour

[trousers]

The 'extremists' on here are actors hired by the owners of the forum to generate traffic through the site. Fact.

[CB Fry]

The 'extremists' on here are actors hired by the owners of the forum to generate traffic through the site. Fact.

 

 

Who's your agent?

[trousers]

Who's your agent?

 

Bobby Davro. Yours?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Agreed used to be a time when football was about enjoying' date=' having a laugh etc not analysing peoples behaviour[/quote']

 

 

But then money took over Mike.

For me I guess I fall into the bed wetter half of the forum, although I am centre left not extreme left (despite what manji will tell you). And the reason I place myself there is, as I am getting on a bit now, I have experienced too many lows, Saints have let me down too many times. I refuse to count my chickens before they are hatched and I also hate tempting fate. That is why I remain cautious and doubting. Expect the worse and then when it all goes right crack open the champers is my philosophy. It works for me but the Saints world is full of different characters and this forum is just a microcosm...............or is it?

[Frank's cousin]

It's pretty ironic, that as sell professed 'happy clappy' some of those WUMs accuse me of 'taking it all tooooo seriously, when that's the whole fricken point of being happy clappy- I don't.

 

I can be comfortable being 'positive' about our future , our ambitions, our growth and development because I ENJOY it. The reality of such claims of European domination, is irrelevant. .... Unless you are so sad that you worry yourself and wet your bed about the fact that fans of other clubs might think its funny and laugh at us....

 

Its easy to dismiss dreams and aspiration as naive if you never take the time to understand that for most supporters it's dreams and aspirations, whether realistic or not that underpin your affection. I wonder how many Wigan fans would have believed they would win the cup some time when they languished in non league? But plenty would have dreamed about it.

 

The whole Europe thing.... Well we have been there before. The side when playing the best it can could probably win a few rounds now... The difference is within the Prem, qualification is so much harder as instead of 2-3 dominating sides, there are 6-7 that take those positions. No one has ever said its possible without serious investment and continued growth... But that does not mean serious investment and growth can not or will not happen... It's a possibility and yet some are obsessed by the probability of this being low, whilst others like me don't give a flying feck about the probability and are simply enjoying being in the upward cycle right now.... There will be plants of opportunity to be miserable again in future as it won't last forever...

 

as to positive/negative news stories.... This is simple. Whether positive or negative, you want at least some facts to substantiate what is most often speculation. With positive stories, of course we want facts as well, but such stories are harmless, and well have no negative PR, so there is no issue if it IS just speculation. With negative stories, the opposite is true, they can be damaging and dividing, so if just speculation they should be exposed as such. Claims made without facts, will always suit someone's agenda, and some seem happy to believe because of it and even propagate the claims... Which makes you suet that they don't really have the clubs best interests at heart.

[Turkish]

Early signs are this thread is going to develop into one of the most tedious in mboard history,

[Glasgow_Saint]

Early signs are this thread is going to develop into one of the most tedious in mboard history,

 

[Frank's cousin]

But then money took over Mike.

For me I guess I fall into the bed wetter half of the forum, although I am centre left not extreme left (despite what manji will tell you). And the reason I place myself there is, as I am getting on a bit now, I have experienced too many lows, Saints have let me down too many times. I refuse to count my chickens before they are hatched and I also hate tempting fate. That is why I remain cautious and doubting. Expect the worse and then when it all goes right crack open the champers is my philosophy. It works for me but the Saints world is full of different characters and this forum is just a microcosm...............or is it?

 

 

thing is Duncs, you are self aware enough to know why you approach it all as you do... Even if its a little depressing ;-)

 

we can not influence what happens, unless you believe that a united fan base that is behind the club as well as the side has any impact... And there is too much ambiguity and contradictory evidence to suggest it does.

 

For me, seeing us win agin and enjoy our football in L1 and then the FCC, just reaffirmed why I like this game and this club... So the cycle is success and possible failure no longer holds any fear - why will be will be, and whilst its clear we are TRYING to play an attractive style, progress and are beating top sides, what's not to enjoy?

 

we go down, so be it, it's Not life or death, and its Not more important than that.

[Mowgli]

It's much simpler than you think. It's about self survival. The optimists (including me I think) cheer themselves up in bad times by looking for the positive signs to convince them everything will be ok. Their fall when things go wrong is painful but generally short lived. The pessimists try to prepare themselves for the worst by predicting doom and gloom. Whatever the outcome- they will be happy. Either saints survive or they can say 'I was right'

[iansums]

Early signs are this thread is going to develop into one of the most tedious in mboard history,

 

Yeah, it will if you keep posting.

[dubai_phil]

It's pretty ironic, that as sell professed 'happy clappy' some of those WUMs accuse me of 'taking it all tooooo seriously, when that's the whole fricken point of being happy clappy- I don't.

 

I can be comfortable being 'positive' about our future , our ambitions, our growth and development because I ENJOY it. The reality of such claims of European domination, is irrelevant. .... Unless you are so sad that you worry yourself and wet your bed about the fact that fans of other clubs might think its funny and laugh at us....

 

Its easy to dismiss dreams and aspiration as naive if you never take the time to understand that for most supporters it's dreams and aspirations, whether realistic or not that underpin your affection. I wonder how many Wigan fans would have believed they would win the cup some time when they languished in non league? But plenty would have dreamed about it.

 

The whole Europe thing.... Well we have been there before. The side when playing the best it can could probably win a few rounds now... The difference is within the Prem, qualification is so much harder as instead of 2-3 dominating sides, there are 6-7 that take those positions. No one has ever said its possible without serious investment and continued growth... But that does not mean serious investment and growth can not or will not happen... It's a possibility and yet some are obsessed by the probability of this being low, whilst others like me don't give a flying feck about the probability and are simply enjoying being in the upward cycle right now.... There will be plants of opportunity to be miserable again in future as it won't last forever...

 

as to positive/negative news stories.... This is simple. Whether positive or negative, you want at least some facts to substantiate what is most often speculation. With positive stories, of course we want facts as well, but such stories are harmless, and well have no negative PR, so there is no issue if it IS just speculation. With negative stories, the opposite is true, they can be damaging and dividing, so if just speculation they should be exposed as such. Claims made without facts, will always suit someone's agenda, and some seem happy to believe because of it and even propagate the claims... Which makes you suet that they don't really have the clubs best interests at heart.

 

Good post Frank.

 

I sit in the middle ground here. Having been out of the UK so long, all of the Great Escapes passed me by in a blur of a few snippets every so often, I did not live it day to day like you all did.

 

The point is that when we were at the Dell we could only dream of corwds of more than 12,000 (hell we could only dream of getting a ticket most of the time). Since 1976 we were used to that dream being thwarted and pessimism became ingrained.

 

Whatever the politics of the Reverse Takeover, suddenly there was an inkling that maybe, just possibly, something could happen.

 

And, actually, it DID. There was a dream, there was a Vision and Bloody Hell there was SMS. The true Bed wetters probably never got over the cardboard box loss of soul etc, BUT for a Happy Clapper, somebody had a dream and wow we actually got there.

 

Now add in the Dream of our wn players from an Academy, yeah right we will never produce/keep talent blah blah blah.

 

NOW the problem is, that although we glimpsed a dream, achieved a lot of it. we were in fact being sold a Dud by the Property equivalent of a Dodgy used Pompey Owner. Itw as all hot air and pieces of leverage and paper. Much like the whole of the UK in those years.

 

So there we were, Bed Wetters AND Happy Clappers all proved right. All within a few years of each other (so in the life of Saints thats a microsecond!)

 

So fast forward to today.

-10 and in Admin, the Bed Wetters tended to be the ones who said someone would always have turned up to buy us, the Clappers tended to think we were going to play at Eastleigh.

 

Then along came an Insane Dream. Really? A Philanthropist Billionaire? An insanely focused maniac who ONLY wants to achieve success for The Club? And well, it is not real, it HAS to go Pete Tong because it was beyond ANYONE's wildest dreams.

 

Oh yeah double promotion is nothing, look at Norwich they say. I would counter that and say, yes but what are Norwich going to do NOW?

 

The debate is now simple, we had Sustainable Survival under Rupert (as Norwich will try and do) and it only goes the Wigan/Wolves/Bolton way.

 

Or we have a dream, the Swansea Way, The Southampton Way, even the WBA way.

 

I think it is fantastic to have HOPE for a change. I think it is FANTASTIC to have other football fans starting to RESPECT us for our FOOTBALL not our idiot Chairman's Klingon comments.

 

I fully expect it to go Pete Tong again. BUT.

 

This is one hell of a Ride, I'm Bloody LOVING it and anyone who isn't on the Bus looking out the window with a huge Grin is gonna be one miserable MoFo that they missed out on all the fun.

 

Of course we'll run out of Gas hit a brick wall. But Oh what sights we will have seen along the way, what memories (55,000 at the JPT) I'm happy to wave at the mugs as we go by

 

[ant]

Early signs are this thread is going to develop into one of the most tedious in mboard history,

 

A bit too close to the mark perchance?

 

Decent, measured analysis; a shame that it'll be forgotten as soon as the next piece of fortune or hardship occurs.

[Turkish]

A bit too close to the mark perchance?

 

Decent, measured analysis; a shame that it'll be forgotten as soon as the next piece of fortune or hardship occurs.

 

Please explain.

[kwsaint]

Early signs are this thread is going to develop into one of the most tedious in mboard history,

 

Then stop posting on it?

[ant]

Please explain.

 

Number 4 in the WUM category comes to mind. Just thought it was interesting that you jumped straight to discredit the thread's worth, that's all.

 

Fact of the matter is that the truth rarely exists at either extreme and tends to settle somewhere in the middle. Similar to our likely finishing position actually.

[Turkish]

Number 4 in the WUM category comes to mind. Just thought it was interesting that you jumped straight to discredit the thread's worth, that's all.

 

Fact of the matter is that the truth rarely exists at either extreme and tends to settle somewhere in the middle. Similar to our likely finishing position actually.

 

so my opinion that we wont finish in the top 10 and it's highly likely we wont, make me a WUM does it. :lol:

[ant]

so my opinion that we wont finish in the top 10 and it's highly likely we wont, make me a WUM does it. :lol:

 

Missed the point completely. Clearly that's a valid opinion - what went OTT was your repeated need to rip shreds from anybody that dared suggest 10th or above was achievable. At the time you were banging on about it we had a roughly equal chance of achieving a top half finish as relegation. Even now it wouldn't take a ridiculous set of results for us to settle thereabouts.

 

For my money it's the people that bang on about the same thing in every thread on here that make legitimate points of discussion a chore. On which note I'll leave it there

[SaintBobby]

so my opinion that we wont finish in the top 10 and it's highly likely we wont, make me a WUM does it. :lol:

 

Very strange, very "binary" approach.

 

As I've pointed out before, if someone who had said before the FA Cup Final "There is no way Man City will win. Absolutely no chance. Completely impossible.", they could fairly be described as mad even though Man City did indeed lose.

 

Same goes for saying there's absolutely zero chance Saints will finish 10th, really.

[Turkish]

Missed the point completely. Clearly that's a valid opinion - what went OTT was your repeated need to rip shreds from anybody that dared suggest 10th or above was achievable. At the time you were banging on about it we had a roughly equal chance of achieving a top half finish as relegation. Even now it wouldn't take a ridiculous set of results for us to settle thereabouts.

 

For my money it's the people that bang on about the same thing in every thread on here that make legitimate points of discussion a chore. On which note I'll leave it there

 

it was my opinion that we wont finish tenth or above, i maintain we wont and if we dont then i will be right, yes?

[Turkish]

Very strange, very "binary" approach.

 

As I've pointed out before, if someone who had said before the FA Cup Final "There is no way Man City will win. Absolutely no chance. Completely impossible.", they could fairly be described as mad even though Man City did indeed lose.

 

Same goes for saying there's absolutely zero chance Saints will finish 10th, really.

 

I never said there was zero chance. Some of the thicker people on here couldn't understand this, what i said was that we wouldnt, not that we couldn't.

[SaintBobby]

I never said there was zero chance. Some of the thicker people on here couldn't understand this, what i said was that we wouldnt, not that we couldn't.

 

I'd need to plough through the messages - which i seriously can't be @rsed to do.

 

My recollection was that you were pretty dismissive of the prospects (e.g. you under-rated the chances badly). If something has, say, a 5% chance of happening and someone implies there's actually only a 0.1% chance of it happening, they're pretty badly wrong (just because the thing itself is pretty damned unlikely to happen and then doesn't actually happen isn't really here or there).

 

Not dissimilar to CB Fry saying that West Ham and Man Utd had the same chance of being relegated. That was pretty nuts, even though West Ham have - unsurprisingly - actually stayed up.

[Turkish]

I'd need to plough through the messages - which i seriously can't be @rsed to do.

 

My recollection was that you were pretty dismissive of the prospects (e.g. you under-rated the chances badly). If something has, say, a 5% chance of happening and someone implies there's actually only a 0.1% chance of it happening, they're pretty badly wrong (just because the thing itself is pretty damned unlikely to happen and then doesn't actually happen isn't really here or there).

 

Not dissimilar to CB Fry saying that West Ham and Man Utd had the same chance of being relegated. That was pretty nuts, even though West Ham have - unsurprisingly - actually stayed up.

 

Yes i was dismissive, because i didnt believe it would happen and if it doesn't then i was right wasn't i. I never said it couldn't happen, i said it wouldn't. Around the time i understand we could have finished as high as 6th, i dont think that would happen either.

[SaintBobby]

Yes i was dismissive, because i didnt believe it would happen and if it doesn't then i was right wasn't i. I never said it couldn't happen, i said it wouldn't. Around the time i understand we could have finished as high as 6th, i dont think that would happen either.

 

Like I say, very binary.

 

There's lots of things I don't think will happen - but I'd often accept there's still fair chance they actually could. Indeed, we still have a fair-ish shot of coming tenth even after a string of poor results.

 

For example, I don't think Saints will win the FA Cup next season. But we have some sort of chance. I'm not going to say something as definitive as "It won't happen" just because the odds are measurably less than 50-50.

[Jimmy_D]

Yes i was dismissive, because i didnt believe it would happen and if it doesn't then i was right wasn't i. I never said it couldn't happen, i said it wouldn't. Around the time i understand we could have finished as high as 6th, i dont think that would happen either.

 

You'll probably be right about us not finishing tenth.

 

Since we're going into the last game with a chance of finishing tenth though, I don't think it was right to be so dismissive of our chances of finishing tenth. Especially with your sneering tone and implications that anyone that thought we had a chance of finishing tenth was an idiot.

[Turkish]

You'll probably be right about us not finishing tenth.

 

Since we're going into the last game with a chance of finishing tenth though, I don't think it was right to be so dismissive of our chances of finishing tenth. Especially with your sneering tone and implications that anyone that thought we had a chance of finishing tenth was an idiot.

 

Again jimmy, you fail to understand, i never said we had NO CHANCE of finishing tenth, i said we wouldn't. I was slammed for my opinion and sneered at, you should check the threads. People seemed to believe that it was impossible for our form to dip and we were all set for an unstoppable march up the table. If we dont finish tenth then i was right and all the knockers were wrong.

[S-Clarke]

I don't consider myself to be either to be honest. I think I judge a situation how it should be judged, I don't knee jerk in either direction. Also, it's easy to lose perspective but that can be costly in terms of your final judgments.

 

There have been some classic heat of the moment posts on here this year, but I think we're all just emotionally charged by the whole charade of the football club. Doesn't mean either ''type'' are less of a fan. I think there are some clear WUM's, but there are some right miserable ****s who are still as passionate as the rest of us.

 

Sometimes it pays to take a couple of minutes before making a snap-post, as I'm sure quite a few regret what they've posted at times!

[Jimmy_D]

Again jimmy, you fail to understand, i never said we had NO CHANCE of finishing tenth, i said we wouldn't. I was slammed for my opinion and sneered at, you should check the threads. People seemed to believe that it was impossible for our form to dip and we were all set for an unstoppable march up the table. If we dont finish tenth then i was right and all the knockers were wrong.

 

It's you that's failing to understand.

 

Your assertion that "all the knockers were wrong" if we don't finish tenth is what's getting people's backs up. They're not wrong to think that we might finish tenth, just as you're not wrong to think we won't. Whichever way it goes, right now both outcomes are possible.

 

It's the insistence that one view is right and one is wrong, and the outcome means that there's a winner to the debate that causes almost all the bad feeling on here.

Edited 16 May, 2013 by Jimmy_D
Small grammar error.

[Barry Sanchez]

The 'extremists' on here are actors hired by the owners of the forum to generate traffic through the site. Fact.

 

I get £4.99 a year.

[Prince Jazzbo]

Its all probably along the same lines as this

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-22542222

[The9]

Good, reasoned OP, already getting dragged into the same old arguments.

[Tamesaint]

I get £4.99 a year.

 

You are being ripped off. That works out at less than 0.9 pence a post.

 

Mind you... seeing the quality of your posts ...... (Only joking !!)

[Barry Sanchez]

You are being ripped off. That works out at less than 0.9 pence a post.

 

Mind you... seeing the quality of your posts ...... (Only joking !!)

 

No I agree, I have a pay review coming up and I know the quality of my posts will be a topic that will be raised so I have to step it up.................

[Doctoroncall]

I never said there was zero chance. Some of the thicker people on here couldn't understand this, what i said was that we wouldnt, not that we couldn't.

 

I remember some of that thread, don't have time to read everything but Turks was right in that in his opinion he didn't see Saints finishing in the top ten, nothing to do with couldn't, shouldn't or anything else. Unfortunately, when a few replies miss the point, Turks got understandably arsey!

[70's Mike]

But then money took over Mike.

For me I guess I fall into the bed wetter half of the forum, although I am centre left not extreme left (despite what manji will tell you). And the reason I place myself there is, as I am getting on a bit now, I have experienced too many lows, Saints have let me down too many times. I refuse to count my chickens before they are hatched and I also hate tempting fate. That is why I remain cautious and doubting. Expect the worse and then when it all goes right crack open the champers is my philosophy. It works for me but the Saints world is full of different characters and this forum is just a microcosm...............or is it?

 

Dunc from the days of the Dolly Diner Saints have mirrored life lots of lows, a few great highs, great friendships

i hope this forum is not a microcosm because if it is a think a better get the razor blades out

[Micky]

I don't know where I stand on this debate, I'm just worried that if we don't get the points against Stoke we'll end up getting relegated.