Michael Gove

[Saint-Armstrong]

What an utter tool this fella is.

 

He's now pushing to scrap the 'A-G' marking system used in official examinations.

 

He wants to replace them with a '1-10' system.

 

What is the point of that? Change for change's sake.

 

Suppose he has to justify his existence somehow.

[Deano6]

It is good because you will eventually be able to get greater levels of granularity, eventually getting to one decimal place like they do in the US for Grade Point Averages.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I had always bought into this " Gove's a tool" line pedalled by others until I saw him on Question Time, he came across as passionate about education, self deprecating, polite and honest. He seemed to go down quite well with the audience, who seemed to warm to him. He has an unfortunate manner about him, but I was quite impressed with him and extremely impressed with his desire to improve educational standards.

[um pahars]

Despite his protestations to the contrary, he has his eye on the leadership & consequently I think you have to look carefully at what he is saying to discern as to whether its (a) genuine or (b) a play to the audience.

 

Like some of the things he has said on education (rigour, high standards, no excuses etc) and particularly like his recruitment/training push with regards Social Workers (Frontline).

 

However, I do fear that most of his bigger picture stuff is influenced both by his own narrow experiences at school, coupled with a desire to be saying the "right" thing to impress the Mail and a narrow right wing in order to bolster his own popularity.

[Sheaf Saint]

I had always bought into this " Gove's a tool" line pedalled by others until I saw him on Question Time, he came across as passionate about education, self deprecating, polite and honest. He seemed to go down quite well with the audience, who seemed to warm to him. He has an unfortunate manner about him, but I was quite impressed with him and extremely impressed with his desire to improve educational standards.

 

Really? Well I saw him debating the reforms of the Sure Start program with Andy Burnham when I visited the HoC a couple of years ago, and I have yet to see any evidence to convince me he is anything other than a pompous, arrogant ar$e. It really does beggar belief how somebody who has never actually worked in the front line of education can be so utterly convinced that his ideas are right. If anybody is in any doubt as to how lowly he is regarded by the teaching profession then have a read of this response to his claims of dumbing down that he made last week...

 

http://www.activehistory.co.uk/gove.php

 

I have never been strongly political and have never had any particular affinity to any party. But if there was a general election tomorrow, I would happily vote Labour if it meant getting this deluded fool out of his office before he causes permanent damage and drives away an entire generation of good teachers from the profession.

[hypochondriac]

Really? Well I saw him debating the reforms of the Sure Start program with Andy Burnham when I visited the HoC a couple of years ago, and I have yet to see any evidence to convince me he is anything other than a pompous, arrogant ar$e. It really does beggar belief how somebody who has never actually worked in the front line of education can be so utterly convinced that his ideas are right. If anybody is in any doubt as to how lowly he is regarded by the teaching profession then have a read of this response to his claims of dumbing down that he made last week...

 

http://www.activehistory.co.uk/gove.php

 

I have never been strongly political and have never had any particular affinity to any party. But if there was a general election tomorrow, I would happily vote Labour if it meant getting this deluded fool out of his office before he causes permanent damage and drives away an entire generation of good teachers from the profession.

 

Tell that to Elizabeth truss. Never has someone with so little experience of the sector she is in charge of been more wrong.

[trousers]

Why do we need an additional grading layer at all? Surely a percentage figure is an adequate, and indeed more accurate measure, of how well someone did in a given exam?

 

In other words knowing that "Johnny got 78% in Maths" tells me more than "Johnny got a B grade in Maths" or "Johnny got a 2 grade in Maths" is much more useful and meaningful to employers etc.

 

Furthermore, it would remove the disappointment of a child missing out on the higher grade by one percentage point. Why disappoint kids when we don't need to? A kid who got 77% should be able to hold their head as high as a kid who got 78%.

 

Gove is heading on the right direction in making grading more granular but I'd go the whole hog and do away with an artificial grading layer altogether.

Edited 16 May, 2013 by trousers

[hutch]

What a daft thread. If they didn't change things just for the sake of it people would start to wonder if we really need so many career politicians and civil servants.

[trousers]

@TelegraphNews: Michael Gove aims to be 'heir to Tony Blair' amid renewed speculation that he could succeed Cameron as Tory leader http://t.co/502IBLdCSx

[hypochondriac]

Gove would be a terrible choice.

[trousers]

Gove would be a terrible choice.

 

Yep. Needs to be Boris

[saintbletch]

Why do we need an additional grading layer at all? Surely a percentage figure is an adequate, and indeed more accurate measure, of how well someone did in a given exam?

 

In other words knowing that "Johnny got 78% in Maths" tells me more than "Johnny got a B grade in Maths" or "Johnny got a 2 grade in Maths" is much more useful and meaningful to employers etc.

 

Furthermore, it would remove the disappointment of a child missing out on the higher grade by one percentage point. Why disappoint kids when we don't need to? A kid who got 77% should be able to hold their head as high as a kid who got 78%.

 

Gove is heading on the right direction in making grading more granular but I'd go the whole hog and do away with an artificial grading layer altogether.

 

Nice idea trousers, but you'd get an artificial comparison between students in different years - unless of course they all sat the same paper year after year. But I can see problems with that approach....

 

 

We need another layer to interpret results in the context of ever-changing syllabuses and different exam boards offering different questions and marking schemes.

 

 

So Johnny might have scored 78% in 2010 before the nice Mr. Gove instructed the teaching profession and exam boards to place holism in the green bin next to the teacher's desk. In 2014, Johnny, who is otherwise bright and intelligent, but struggles with exams, might not do so well.

[trousers]

Nice idea trousers, but you'd get an artificial comparison between students in different years - unless of course they all sat the same paper year after year. But I can see problems with that approach....

 

 

We need another layer to interpret results in the context of ever-changing syllabuses and different exam boards offering different questions and marking schemes.

 

 

So Johnny might have scored 78% in 2010 before the nice Mr. Gove instructed the teaching profession and exam boards to place holism in the green bin next to the teacher's desk. In 2014, Johnny, who is otherwise bright and intelligent, but struggles with exams, might not do so well.

 

All of which assumes the grading system is consistently applied over the years too...

[saintbletch]

All of which assumes the grading system is consistently applied over the years too...

 

Good point, and I'm certainly not suggesting that it had been applied with consistency.

 

It might gave been a crock of s***, but it was at least a fairer crock of s***.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

All of which assumes the grading system is consistently applied over the years too...

 

You could base it on percentiles, so all grades are relative to the year group.

 

As for Gove I just can't see him becoming a successful leader. He's even more of an awkward geek than Miliband. As an Education Secretary he's terrible in any case - just want makes him qualified to have such strident views on education?

[View From The Top]

Having met Gove twice all I can say is that he's utterly clueless. Passionate, but clueless.

 

He's living in a world so removed from the reality of the majority.

[bridge too far]

Yep. Needs to be Boris

 

Gawd 'elp us if the choice in years to come is between Gove and Boris! Still, they say we get the government we deserve (not that I subscribe to that theory you understand).

[badgerx16]

He truly doesn't have a clue.

The problem with education in this country is that everybody involved in the sector within central Government, ( whatever political persuasion ), obsesses with 'reforming' and 'improving', and leaving their own mark on history during their short tenure within whatever the Department calls itself this month. Most of these people have no experience of working in the sector, their last experience of the classroom was the last day of 6th form. None of the changes are ever given time to bed in before being declared as failures, if indeed they are ever actually needed.

( This is not solely my opinion, it is also shared by most of the teachers I know, including the one I'm married to ).

Edited 16 May, 2013 by badgerx16

[Lord Duckhunter]

Gawd 'elp us if the choice in years to come is between Gove and Boris! Still, they say we get the government we deserve (not that I subscribe to that theory you understand).

 

The Tory faithful were blinded by "Dave" , they wanted a Tony Blair clone. They ****ed up by binning DD

[buctootim]

He truly doesn't have a clue.

The problem with education in this country is that everybody involved in the sector within central Government, ( whatever political persuasion ), obsesses with 'reforming'; and 'improving', and leaving their own mark on history during their short tenure within whatever the Department calls itself this month. Most of these people have no experience of working in the sector, their last experience of the classroom was the last day of 6th form. None of the changes are ever given time to bed in before being declared as failures, if indeed they are ever actually needed.

( This is not solely my opinion, it is also shared by most of the teachers I know, including the one I'm married to ).

 

Absolutely true and also applies to the NHS. Even the senior civil servants who draft these proposals often don't know the sector. I used to work for South East London Health Authority at a time when we were struggling with some hopelessly ill thought through (and hideously expensive to administer) competitive tendering system the Dept of Health had introduced. I met somebody at an event who cheerfully told me she was one who had devised it - during a sole 18 month stint in health having previously worked in the Home office and never been involved previously in CCT before.

[badgerx16]

The Tory faithful were blinded by "Dave" , they wanted a Tony Blair clone. They ****ed up by binning DD

 

True.

[Batman]

Nursing/Doctoring agencies are crippling the NHS. Some of the pay is incredible and actually stops NHS trusts from being able to fill their full time positions.

The Labour party made a particular effort to bring in Nurses/Doctors directly from over seas and many have gone home after getting a few years of NHS time under their belt and thus, a hole has been created in the work force and said agencies are making a killing

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Nursing/Doctoring agencies are crippling the NHS. Some of the pay is incredible and actually stops NHS trusts from being able to fill their full time positions.

The Labour party made a particular effort to bring in Nurses/Doctors directly from over seas and many have gone home after getting a few years of NHS time under their belt and thus, a hole has been created in the work force and said agencies are making a killing

 

A logical conclusion of clamping down on immigration?

[Lord Duckhunter]

A logical conclusion of clamping down on immigration?

 

I would say it's a logical conclusion of poor education and a lack of joined up thinking from Governments the past 20 years.

 

We have a million young people out of work and we have shortages in the NHS. If, as the post you replied to said, Labour made an effort to attract Nurses/Doctors from overseas why didn't they make a particular effort to educate and persuade British students to become Doctors and Nurses? Then when the overseas people left, we would have the young people with the skills to fill those roles.

 

1 million youth unemployed, a hole in the NHS workforce, yet it's all the fault of an immigration clampdown?

[DuncanRG]

A dangerous ideologue not prepared to rule or educate modern Britain.

[View From The Top]

I would say it's a logical conclusion of poor education and a lack of joined up thinking from Governments the past 20 years.

 

We have a million young people out of work and we have shortages in the NHS. If, as the post you replied to said, Labour made an effort to attract Nurses/Doctors from overseas why didn't they make a particular effort to educate and persuade British students to become Doctors and Nurses? Then when the overseas people left, we would have the young people with the skills to fill those roles.

 

1 million youth unemployed, a hole in the NHS workforce, yet it's all the fault of an immigration clampdown?

 

Ah, right, it's Labour's fault. They didn't force people to train for something they didn't want to do. How dare they not force people to train as doctors and nurses.

 

Good to see the tories are making people train for those positions now.

[bridge too far]

Ah, right, it's Labour's fault. They didn't force people to train for something they didn't want to do. How dare they not force people to train as doctors and nurses.

 

Good to see the tories are making people train for those positions now.

 

Not in any way wishing to take the wind out your sails VFTT - because I agree with the point you are making - I think it's a fact that, under Labour, more doctors were under training and the current government now claims that there's been an increased in doctors and nurses on their watch (conveniently forgetting that it takes about 10 years to train as a doctor).

 

Yesterday, on the news, there was an item about the shortage of Emergency Medicine practitioners. The consultant in charge of the A & E department featured said that junior doctors were unwilling to make a career of emergency medicine because of the fact that A & E departments are almost at meltdown.

[Wade Garrett]

The Tory faithful were blinded by "Dave" , they wanted a Tony Blair clone. They ****ed up by binning DD

 

I've never voted Tory, but really rate DD as a politician.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Ah, right, it's Labour's fault. They didn't force people to train for something they didn't want to do. How dare they not force people to train as doctors and nurses.

 

Good to see the tories are making people train for those positions now.

 

In what way does my sentance " Governments of the past 20 years" imply that it is all labours fault.

 

I just find it rather bizare that we have million young people out of work, yet have to rely on immigrants to fill gaps in the job market. Surely there is only a handful of professions where it would just not be possible to recruit British people. I just do not except that shortages are caused by people not wanting to be nurses. I belive there are plenty of Yong adults that have the empthy and the willingness to enter the nursing profession, they just lack the education to do so. My mrs went back to night school to get the a levels needed to do her midwifery degree. Her schooling was so bad she left with no qualifications at all, and yet now she has a rewarding and sucsessful career as a midwife. She only managed to acheive this with her own drive and determination, but also because my wage could support the family. How many others are there like that, who have fallen through the cracks but aren't so lucky in having a spouse that can afford that?

[View From The Top]

In what way does my sentance " Governments of the past 20 years" imply that it is all labours fault.

 

I just find it rather bizare that we have million young people out of work, yet have to rely on immigrants to fill gaps in the job market. Surely there is only a handful of professions where it would just not be possible to recruit British people. I just do not except that shortages are caused by people not wanting to be nurses. I belive there are plenty of Yong adults that have the empthy and the willingness to enter the nursing profession, they just lack the education to do so. My mrs went back to night school to get the a levels needed to do her midwifery degree. Her schooling was so bad she left with no qualifications at all, and yet now she has a rewarding and sucsessful career as a midwife. She only managed to acheive this with her own drive and determination, but also because my wage could support the family. How many others are there like that, who have fallen through the cracks but aren't so lucky in having a spouse that can afford that?

 

Perhaps this government shouldn't have slashed the adult education budget then which was a real pathway for 1000s of adults into college/uni/careers just when it was starting to make a real difference to people like those you mentioned.

[Saintandy666]

Gove's ideas are largely stupid, and far too concentrated on turning back the clock in our education system when we need to be looking to the future.

 

As for the A-G marking system, it doesn't really matter, as the OP said... and everyone knows only C and above is taken seriously.

 

However, I do agree with Michael Gove on a couple of things despite my overall grievances.

 

1. Science GCSE's (less so the separate sciences, more the core and additional science GCSE) - Are far too easy, and compartmentalised. Too much multiple choice, and I don't really see how it can encourage you to join the dots in science and discover more unless you are the kind of student who takes that kind of interest regardless.

 

2. AS Levels - AS levels are significantly easier than A2 levels, yet we combine them and give them equal weighting in terms of points. Too many people get high grades off the back of good AS results, and for me there is a really big difference between a student who gets A's at AS and less than that at A2, but still gets an A overall, and a student who gets A's in both AS and A2.

 

3. Non-subjects - there really are some non-subjects with bad weighting which encourages schools to waste time on them. Take the stupid IT course I was made to do in year 11 (it was a BTEC and had ridiculous weighting being worth several C's - nothing wrong with BTEC's in general of course, just this one.) and this was in addition to an IT GCSE I had already done. The only reason we had to do this was because it was easy, and so everyone passed, thus improving the points score for my school.

 

And that is where I agree with Gove. Everything else, absolutely not.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Perhaps this government shouldn't have slashed the adult education budget then which was a real pathway for 1000s of adults into college/uni/careers just when it was starting to make a real difference to people like those you mentioned.

 

Perhaps we should have taught them correctly in the first place, when they were at school.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Perhaps we should have taught them correctly in the first place, when they were at school.

 

Of course, all those who left school with poor qualifications were model pupils with supportive parents, who were desperate to learn but were simply let down by their schools.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Of course, all those who left school with poor qualifications were model pupils with supportive parents, who were desperate to learn but were simply let down by their schools.

 

Well whose fault was it then? let me guess, the Nasty Tory Party.

 

Why is social mobility so low in this Country, and why was it higher when we had Grammar Schools?

[View From The Top]

Well whose fault was it then? let me guess, the Nasty Tory Party.

 

Why is social mobility so low in this Country, and why was it higher when we had Grammar Schools?

 

You really are a clueless cu.nt.

[buctootim]

Well whose fault was it then? let me guess, the Nasty Tory Party.

 

Why is social mobility so low in this Country, and why was it higher when we had Grammar Schools?

 

Paucity of expectation. People want to go to their local school, but you'd get more social mobility if you mixed people up across wider areas and ensured a more mixed intake. That was one of the main reasons for the success of grammar schools imo, albeit not the only one.

[Barry Sanchez]

In what way does my sentance " Governments of the past 20 years" imply that it is all labours fault.

 

I just find it rather bizare that we have million young people out of work, yet have to rely on immigrants to fill gaps in the job market. Surely there is only a handful of professions where it would just not be possible to recruit British people. I just do not except that shortages are caused by people not wanting to be nurses. I belive there are plenty of Yong adults that have the empthy and the willingness to enter the nursing profession, they just lack the education to do so. My mrs went back to night school to get the a levels needed to do her midwifery degree. Her schooling was so bad she left with no qualifications at all, and yet now she has a rewarding and sucsessful career as a midwife. She only managed to acheive this with her own drive and determination, but also because my wage could support the family. How many others are there like that, who have fallen through the cracks but aren't so lucky in having a spouse that can afford that?

 

There are tens of 1000's, crying shame and very very sad, possibly reeducating our current unskilled is undesirable as it does not fill a quota of overseas migrants coming to live but also far more expensive to subsidise someone education costs, in short they are selling us short again. Cheap skilled labour from afar saves the day? To a degree but it all comes down to money and the ****ting on the working classes again.

[Lord Duckhunter]

You really are a clueless cu.nt.

 

Classy.

 

Why don't you answer the question instead of throwing insults around?

 

Why is social mobility so low in this country, it cant all be the fault of the Tory party?

[LGTL]

Well whose fault was it then? let me guess, the Nasty Tory Party.

 

Why is social mobility so low in this Country, and why was it higher when we had Grammar Schools?

 

It's the parents fault. You can see some kids have NO chance to do well at school from about 11 years old, probably earlier, regardless of school interventions. If they then decide to view life differently as they age and set about doing something about it then that should be encouraged.

[adrian lord]

A culture of low horizons, no ambition and low expectations has always pervaded Comprehensive schools.

[Barry Sanchez]

A culture of low horizons, no ambition and low expectations has always pervaded Comprehensive schools.

 

This Country is flying ahead with old Etonians running it.........

[Lord Duckhunter]

This Country is flying ahead with old Etonians running it.........

 

At the risk of being sworn at, I would like to point something out.

 

Harold Wilson

Ted Heath

Jim Callaghan

Maggie Thatcher

John major

 

I believe every single one went to a grammar school. None were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and all rose to the highest elected office in the land. That is 33 years of state educated pm's, what an example of the positive effects state education can have on mobility. Yet now the last generation of grammar school educated students has gone, what are we left with. A privately educated ellite , who surround themselves with clones and doubles of themselves. The crossmans of the world certainly made a difference , they turned the clock back to an era where gentlemen ruled and us peasants knew our place.

[buctootim]

At the risk of being sworn at, I would like to point something out.

 

Harold Wilson

Ted Heath

Jim Callaghan

Maggie Thatcher

John major

 

I believe every single one went to a grammar school. None were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and all rose to the highest elected office in the land. That is 33 years of state educated pm's, what an example of the positive effects state education can have on mobility. Yet now the last generation of grammar school educated students has gone, what are we left with. A privately educated ellite , who surround themselves with clones and doubles of themselves. The crossmans of the world certainly made a difference , they turned the clock back to an era where gentlemen ruled and us peasants knew our place.

 

Agree. The irony is that grammar schools were phased out for being elitist - but all their abolition has done is to cut off the main route out of manual labour and ensured the public schoolboys fill the top jobs unchallenged.

[Sheaf Saint]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22558756

 

The education secretary is like a "fanatical personal trainer" who urges schools to jump higher and run faster, a head teachers' leader is to say.

 

Bernadette Hunter, president of the NAHT, will say Michael Gove pays no heed to "the damage he is causing to the body or the system".....

 

 

Ahead of the conference Ms Hunter said head teachers were also "particularly unhappy" about what she called the "constant churn of educational change" and the "negative rhetoric" coming from the government.

 

"We know that UK schools are amongst the best in the world," she told the BBC's Breakfast programme. "They are highly regarded by other countries, but to hear the Department for Education you would think we have a failing system."......

 

 

Mike Britland, a teacher at a comprehensive school in Bournemouth said schools would "probably accept more government interference" if ministers had "any experience of working in the school environment".

 

"I don't really think that this government and any government that has gone beforehand really recognise the issues that we face on a daily basis."

[Verbal]

At the risk of being sworn at, I would like to point something out.

 

Harold Wilson

Ted Heath

Jim Callaghan

Maggie Thatcher

John major

 

I believe every single one went to a grammar school. None were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and all rose to the highest elected office in the land. That is 33 years of state educated pm's, what an example of the positive effects state education can have on mobility. Yet now the last generation of grammar school educated students has gone, what are we left with. A privately educated ellite , who surround themselves with clones and doubles of themselves. The crossmans of the world certainly made a difference , they turned the clock back to an era where gentlemen ruled and us peasants knew our place.

 

The only PM on that list with real working class roots was Ted Heath. All the others had dodgy (Major, and Callaghan for being born in the wrong place) to comfortable (Wilson, Thatcher) middle class backgrounds.

[Saint-Armstrong]

BREAKING: Headteachers' have declared a state of 'no confidence' in the government's education department, and their policies.

[JackFrost]

BREAKING: Headteachers' have declared a state of 'no confidence' in the government's education department, and their policies.

 

I can't believe Gove's position is even tenable at the moment, he clearly doesn't know what he's doing and is fast turning into a liability.

 

Did anyone see QT the other night? I believe this woman in the audience had a go at Cameron and then suggested Gove would make a good party leader - the audience reaction was priceless.

 

If Gove became the next Conservative leader I genuinely do think British politics would be forever doomed.

[CB Saint]

So these head teachers who heckled gove, I guessing they would not be as tolerant in their own assembly hall. #goodexample

[SuperMikey]

Most headteachers probably aren't solid-gold c*nts like Gove is though to be fair. Some people deserve to be heckled, and that tw*t is one of them.

[buctootim]

Gove reminds me of a PG Wodehouse character. Interesting because he is so idiosyncratic and 'different' but you wouldn't entrust him with anything important.