Cultural differences spreading further south

[holepuncture]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10057543/Asian-grooming-gang-convicted-of-appalling-acts-of-depravity-on-children.html

 

This was largely a northern issue over the last few years (tip of ice-berg), however more and more are being convicted and the trail is going down south... shocking our authorities let these people continue for seven years IMO.

 

Should we be lenient on these gentlemen as they argue their behaviour is perfectly acceptable culture in their country of origin, or should they accept that if they come to a country, take land, money and employment, that they should respect the culture they now benefit from?

[pap]

The law is the law, and in this case, is designed to protect children from exploitation. That said, it has utterly failed in this instance. My grandfather, who is Pakistani, tried for years to impose a Pakistani style of living on his brood. He's very traditional, but I'm happy to say he's failed. My nan, who was born here, pretty much defeated him at every turn ( she used to keep pork products hidden at the back of the fridge, and she snuck all the kids off to a CoE church to get them baptised! ). I'm honestly glad of the intervention; my granddad is still a bit gutted about it, but the point he misses is that we're pretty well integrated.

 

I mention all this because where people do succeed in maintaining their native culture over here, it often leads to problems. First off, any purposefully maintained native culture practiced in a foreign one is implicitly going to create an in-group/out-group mentality and little clusters of society that aren't fully attached to the rest of it, or have societal norms that are at odds with it. There are plenty of examples, from honour killings, people being spirited away to far-flung cultures to become wed in forced marriages. I'd argue that the root cause of all of it is a small scale clash of civilisations, traditional values coming up against Western values, with tragic consequences.

 

People from that part of the world are very proud and very tribal. I have no doubt that in some households, a quiet form of racism is going on with regard to what kids are being taught by their parents. That they should marry within their own communities, that mixed marriages don't work, that Western values are corrupt and not worth taking on, and dare I say it, that the people of their native race are somehow better than the ones around them; self-veneration essentially leading to racism. It is clear from their actions that these men had no respect whatsoever for the women they groomed, otherwise I'm at a loss as to how they could have done it.

 

It's definitely a racial thing too; all six of the girls were white.

 

These were grown men who knew what they were doing. I'm not making excuses for the f**kers. However, I think it's important to recognise where such callous indifference is born. Ultimately it's the chasm between traditional Asian values, traditional liberal values and the fact that Asians try to apply those principles here. It's unrealistic to expect the same life if you are emigrating, even more so to expect your children to grow up and act like traditional Muslim kids in a society that is definitely not. This is not the first time that such a grooming gang has been arrested. The Muslim community needs to look within itself before this becomes a pattern that is impossible to ignore, and a collective stain on people of similar origins, if it hasn't already.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I'm not necessarily sure where I quite stand on it.

 

I don't wish to be judgemental of other cultures, but frankly, when it comes to women's rights and equality, Eastern cultures are archaic.

 

It cannot simply be due to this alone though. There are, and have been millions of people that have moved to this part of the world from these backgrounds. The majority of which are valuable members of society, integrated, bringing aspects of their culture and heritage and enriching ours as a result. I have grown up in, and still live in London, I genuinely believe it is one of the most incredible cities on this planet, and that is largely thanks to it welcoming all comers, and embracing the cultures and traits they bring with them.

 

I agree in part with what Pap said. Holding on to, and trying to implement one's heritage blindly, in another culture can lead to them/us scenarios, which are detrimental to themselves and others around them. I also agree that racism is rife, within these cultures and something of a bizarre hybrid of inferiority/superiority complex occurs. It's sad when group of people with similar cultures form a pack mentality, and close themselves off from the societies/cultures that they find themselves surrounded by. In my opinion this will only ever lead to heightened tensions, and mistrust between clashing cultures. I think this leads to some of the riots you see in places like Bradford, and subsequently allows vile people like Nick Griffin and the BNP to exploit this.

 

The answer is not to segregate and separate, but to integrate. I don't like the hard-line approach some take of "they come here they should live like us etc", but I do think to a certain extent, you have to at least appreciate the culture you inhabit. You can be damned sure if westerns were to settle in some of these places and impose their values, they would no be granted any leniency in doing so.

 

These acts are vile, and disgusting, these men deserve the harshest punishments possible. They show a callous lack of respect for both women, and children. Cases like this make me question my own stance on capital punishment. It is very easy to be swayed by calls for chemical castration etc in cases like this, not that I agree with this, but can sympathise with those that argue it - I also imagine this would increase were I to have children, particularly girls of my own.

 

The biggest thing I believe is education. We should endeavour not to demonise an entire race/culture, but seek to improve attitudes towards women. These acts need to stop, whoever commits thm

[bridge too far]

A horrific case and, apparently, the media has only reported a fraction of the evidence because it was so awful.

 

The Independent has published an insightful article and it makes a pertinent point here:

 

Police, social workers, academics and children’s charity workers agree. Greater Manchester Police, in whose area the Rochdale offences took place, says 95 per cent of the men on its sex offenders register are white. Just five per cent are Asian. Wendy Shepherd, child sexual exploitation project manager with Barnardo’s in the north of England, says that most abusers are white and most child sex exploitation happens in the home.

 

So whilst we should rightly condemn what has happened in Rochdale and Oxford, we shouldn't close our eyes to abuse happening elsewhere and by other communities. We are doing victims in those communities a huge disservice if we ignore their plight in any attempt to attribute abuse to one community alone.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/the-oxford-child-sex-abuse-verdict-highlights-a-cultural-problem-but-not-a-specifically-muslim-one-8616370.html

[Dr. Kucho]

Should we be lenient on these gentlemen as they argue their behaviour is perfectly acceptable culture in their country of origin, or should they accept that if they come to a country, take land, money and employment, that they should respect the culture they now benefit from?

 

NO! They should, if possible, be deported after they have served their prison sentence. If you go and live in another country you should respect the rules of that country. If you dont agree with the rules of a country, dont go and live there.

[bridge too far]

NO! They should, if possible, be deported after they have served their prison sentence. If you go and live in another country you should respect the rules of that country. If you dont agree with the rules of a country, dont go and live there.

 

I understand that 5 of the 7 were British born - so a bit of a problem, deporting them.

[holepuncture]

The answer is not to segregate and separate, but to integrate.

 

The biggest thing I believe is education. We should endeavour not to demonise an entire race/culture, but seek to improve attitudes towards women. These acts need to stop, whoever commits thm

 

I understand that 5 of the 7 were British born - so a bit of a problem, deporting them.

 

The issue here is as BTF points out, that the majority of these gentlemen were born and bred in Britain, they have had a lifetime of education and intergration along with all the opportunities that being here brings...

[Jonnyboy]

Wasn't G Glitter from the south?

[Jonnyboy]

Why are so many young white girls in care or extremely vulnerable?

 

Maybe we should ask why we have so much family breakdown ?

[um pahars]

Should we be lenient on these gentlemen as they argue their behaviour is perfectly acceptable culture in their country of origin, or should they accept that if they come to a country, take land, money and employment, that they should respect the culture they now benefit from?

 

Where did anyone say this behaviour is acceptable in "their" culture or country???

[holepuncture]

Where did anyone say this behaviour is acceptable in "their" culture or country???

 

I phrased that badly, but it is accepted within some Asian and Arab cultures: children being bought and sold, daughters being given to community 'leaders', beheadings for any of these children that do not comply/ 'insulting the great honour of the family' etc.

 

The article states these gentlemen had clients travelling across the country to use these children. Barbaric, its absolutely appalling what is going on and I suspect this and the reports over the last few years are the tip of the ice berg.

[Colinjb]

Think we have to be careful here with taring cultures with gross generalisations based on the actions of people who take things to extremes.

[holepuncture]

Think we have to be careful here with taring cultures with gross generalisations based on the actions of people who take things to extremes.

 

Indeed, I am wary of this, as BTF pointed out these monsters are in the absolute minority when compared to 'white' citizens, although is that simply due to the population proportions (ie they are the minority because they are a minority population in the UK)?

 

The article also demonstrates that the network of abusers in this case spreads up and down the UK and as such it has infiltrated many of these communities, so perhaps it is now a general issue within these communities?

 

I believe the questions have to be asked, publically and without treading softly, beofre it becomes a generational attitude. I fear its already happening, look after your children.

[bridge too far]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root

 

Making the point that there was hardly any press coverage of this case.......

[EastleighSoulBoy]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root

 

Making the point that there was hardly any press coverage of this case.......

 

I'm just wondering if the proportions of abusers are similar in both ethnic and white communities?

 

The question which The Guardian is asking is "Why did the specific case gets little or no exposure from the tabloids etc"

 

Surely one of the purposes of the press is to challenge people's opinions and views, rather than play to their fears? It's a vicious circle.

[Barry Sanchez]

A horrific case and, apparently, the media has only reported a fraction of the evidence because it was so awful.

 

The Independent has published an insightful article and it makes a pertinent point here:

 

Police, social workers, academics and children’s charity workers agree. Greater Manchester Police, in whose area the Rochdale offences took place, says 95 per cent of the men on its sex offenders register are white. Just five per cent are Asian. Wendy Shepherd, child sexual exploitation project manager with Barnardo’s in the north of England, says that most abusers are white and most child sex exploitation happens in the home.

 

So whilst we should rightly condemn what has happened in Rochdale and Oxford, we shouldn't close our eyes to abuse happening elsewhere and by other communities. We are doing victims in those communities a huge disservice if we ignore their plight in any attempt to attribute abuse to one community alone.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/the-oxford-child-sex-abuse-verdict-highlights-a-cultural-problem-but-not-a-specifically-muslim-one-8616370.html

 

What's the % of Muslims to Whites in this Country as you put it?

[Barry Sanchez]

Indeed, I am wary of this, as BTF pointed out these monsters are in the absolute minority when compared to 'white' citizens, although is that simply due to the population proportions (ie they are the minority because they are a minority population in the UK)?

 

The article also demonstrates that the network of abusers in this case spreads up and down the UK and as such it has infiltrated many of these communities, so perhaps it is now a general issue within these communities?

 

I believe the questions have to be asked, publically and without treading softly, beofre it becomes a generational attitude. I fear its already happening, look after your children.

 

 

Thye hide within their communities (loosely termed as its a cultural/religeous/tribal community and one not of area or an affinity for it) and then come out of it to commit these crimes, its a intergration or lackof issue, one that must make the sandal wearing hippy classes shudder.

 

This is a reason why Western people assimilate well (Western European and Wasp's), they dont bring this baggage with them, their loyalty is to their family as opposed to their Nation.

Edited 17 May, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[badgerx16]

 

Police, social workers, academics and children’s charity workers agree. Greater Manchester Police, in whose area the Rochdale offences took place, says 95 per cent of the men on its sex offenders register are white. Just five per cent are Asian.

 

What's the % of Muslims to Whites in this Country as you put it?

 

In Rochdale MBC it's just under 10% of the population, in the town centre it's nearer 20%. And remember this predominantly seems to be a problem for British born men of Pakistani origin, not the wider Muslim population.

Edited 17 May, 2013 by badgerx16

[Barry Sanchez]

In Rochdale MBC it's just under 10% of the population, in the town centre it's nearer 20%. And remember this predominantly seems to be a problem for British born men of Pakistani origin, not the wider Muslim population.

 

To all intents and purposes they are Pakistani (the question of Nationality to many Muslims is alien, they connect with their religion not their Country unless its cricket and even then there are huge swathes of "Brits" who support Pakistan when they are here and even some Indian Muslims who support Pakistan) and living in a foreign land, they see it that way anyway, they have no iffiliation with this Country as their culture is that far removed, economic migrants from a by-gone era, they would be strangers in Pakistan as well.

 

Lost souls and the result of cheap labour multi culturism self interest lets **** on the blue collar worker politicians decisions.

 

How many more split communities are going to be created up here by the collapse of industry and social experiments on the poot by the liberal elite from London?

 

Burnley, Oldham, Rochdale, Bradford, Dewsbury and many others, intergration and the allowing communities to be allowed to live apart like they do.

[badgerx16]

To all intents and purposes they are Pakistani (the question of Nationality to many Muslims is alien, they connect with their religion not their Country unless its cricket and even then there are huge swathes of "Brits" who support Pakistan when they are here and even some Indian Muslims who support Pakistan)

 

So, is this an apparent "Muslim" thing or a "Pakistani" thing ?

[Barry Sanchez]

So, is this an apparent "Muslim" thing or a "Pakistani" thing ?

 

For me its a British born Pakistani thing but that matters not, its matters what they see themselves, at a guess they see themselves as Pakistani Muslims but when in the **** British born citizens legally worshipping their own religion.

[Verbal]

The terms 'Pakistani' and 'Muslim' are thrown around too loosely in this whole discussion, and in some ways the problem is more severe, and much more specific, than many seem to realise.

 

You'd think that immigrants from Pakistan to the UK would come from all over their homeland. They don't. Around 75% of all Pakistani migrants and their families come from one small area of Pakistan, Mirpur District, in what Pakistanis call 'Azad ('free') Kashmir'. This district is deeply conservative religiously and poor, with all the problems that come with it: low rates of literacy, appalling outcomes for women, and all else that accompanies living in a war zone (as it is, with India on its doorstep and a proxy war being fought there since 1947). The reason the original migrants moved here was because they were villagers displaced by the construction of the Mangla Dam in the 1960s. Their extended families followed the original migrants to the UK.

 

Two general observations about this: one, when we think of Pakistanis and assume we know who and what they are, what they look like, etc., we're horribly wrong. We're only looking at a tiny group (and their descendants) of Mirpuri villagers. And two, when Mirpuris return to Pakistan, they all say the same thing: they are shocked by how 'liberal' and permissive is Pakistani life. Even two Mirpuri women who've gone on to become TV presenters in this country have told me this - they are scandalised.

 

But the more worrying facts are these: of the 7/7 bombers who were Pakistani, 100% of them were from families with Mirpur connections. The same goes for the many Pakistanis convicted for their part in several failed attempts at terrorist atrocities in the UK. Of the convicted Pakistani child abusers, 100% were, I believe (you can tell by names and other indicators), from families with Mirpur connections.

 

The problem, in my view, is the intimate connection between the oppressiveness of conservative Islam as indoctrinated in these Kashmiri villages, and the propensity towards Extremist violence towards the two groups of people most despised by these religious tenets: 'kuffars' (which can include other Muslims, such as Shia and Ahmadis, but also Christians, Hindus, etc) and women.

 

I don't know what the solution is, and I'm sure that demonising the community won't help. But I'm equally certain we'll see more terrorist recruits emerging from within the Mirpuri community, although perhaps - and hopefully - fewer child abusers.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

To all intents and purposes they are Pakistani (the question of Nationality to many Muslims is alien, they connect with their religion not their Country unless its cricket and even then there are huge swathes of "Brits" who support Pakistan when they are here and even some Indian Muslims who support Pakistan)

 

You're surely contradicting yourself their. You say "they" have no concept of nationality and instead identify with religion but you term them Pakistanis rather than Muslims.

 

People often bang on about South Asians supporting their ancestral countries for Cricket. So the **** what?

[Barry Sanchez]

You're surely contradicting yourself their. You say "they" have no concept of nationality and instead identify with religion but you term them Pakistanis rather than Muslims.

 

People often bang on about South Asians supporting their ancestral countries for Cricket. So the **** what?

 

I do, I cant comment for them can I? The Tebbit test is a controversial one but controversial as its pretty true and hits the liberal elite right between the bails.

[Barry Sanchez]

The terms 'Pakistani' and 'Muslim' are thrown around too loosely in this whole discussion, and in some ways the problem is more severe, and much more specific, than many seem to realise.

 

You'd think that immigrants from Pakistan to the UK would come from all over their homeland. They don't. Around 75% of all Pakistani migrants and their families come from one small area of Pakistan, Mirpur District, in what Pakistanis call 'Azad ('free') Kashmir'. This district is deeply conservative religiously and poor, with all the problems that come with it: low rates of literacy, appalling outcomes for women, and all else that accompanies living in a war zone (as it is, with India on its doorstep and a proxy war being fought there since 1947). The reason the original migrants moved here was because they were villagers displaced by the construction of the Mangla Dam in the 1960s. Their extended families followed the original migrants to the UK.

 

Two general observations about this: one, when we think of Pakistanis and assume we know who and what they are, what they look like, etc., we're horribly wrong. We're only looking at a tiny group (and their descendants) of Mirpuri villagers. And two, when Mirpuris return to Pakistan, they all say the same thing: they are shocked by how 'liberal' and permissive is Pakistani life. Even two Mirpuri women who've gone on to become TV presenters in this country have told me this - they are scandalised.

 

But the more worrying facts are these: of the 7/7 bombers who were Pakistani, 100% of them were from families with Mirpur connections. The same goes for the many Pakistanis convicted for their part in several failed attempts at terrorist atrocities in the UK. Of the convicted Pakistani child abusers, 100% were, I believe (you can tell by names and other indicators), from families with Mirpur connections.

 

The problem, in my view, is the intimate connection between the oppressiveness of conservative Islam as indoctrinated in these Kashmiri villages, and the propensity towards Extremist violence towards the two groups of people most despised by these religious tenets: 'kuffars' (which can include other Muslims, such as Shia and Ahmadis, but also Christians, Hindus, etc) and women.

 

I don't know what the solution is, and I'm sure that demonising the community won't help. But I'm equally certain we'll see more terrorist recruits emerging from within the Mirpuri community, although perhaps - and hopefully - fewer child abusers.

 

But they are still intrigued enough to dirty themselves with vunerable children? Their hatred of a Western lifestyle does not supercede their sexual predatory.

Hypocrites and beasts.

[View From The Top]

I recently had to attend a CEOPS briefing regarding these sorts of issues and the demarcation regarding race is an interesting one.

 

Something like 80% of what is classified as "street grooming" is done by non whites and something like 90% of online grooming is by whites but 80+% of all abuse is within the home or wider family.

 

There was an interesting debate as to why so many young white girls fall prey on the streets and one opinion is that late night businesses tend to be Asian owned bring them more readily in contact with those girls.

 

Why those girls are on the streets is a whole other debate.

[Barry Sanchez]

I recently had to attend a CEOPS briefing regarding these sorts of issues and the demarcation regarding race is an interesting one.

 

Something like 80% of what is classified as "street grooming" is done by non whites and something like 90% of online grooming is by whites but 80+% of all abuse is within the home or wider family.

 

There was an interesting debate as to why so many young white girls fall prey on the streets and one opinion is that late night businesses tend to be Asian owned bring them more readily in contact with those girls.

 

Why those girls are on the streets is a whole other debate.

 

Some ethnic groups can write better than others on the whole hence one does this face to face and the other online?

Edited 18 May, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Jonnyboy]

Barry is definitely dune.