trousers Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Its days like today, that I wish the likes of lifelongsaint/ david extance/ Dr Who and one other notable poster (I have forgot their name but they appeared reliable) who were able to give us the real truth on what is happening at the club For one horrible second I thought you were going to mention Tommac then....
trousers Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 helpmerhonda is missed as well Ah yes.... Dan Williams using the SWF as a foil to takeover Blackburn (allegedly).... I wonder how that turned out (said Trousers digressing further....)
Gemmel Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 don't think you're quite right. Debt was converted into equity in June or July 2011 and showed up in the 2011 accounts published in March 2012. Since then we've been bagging more losses and have considerable debt..as shown in the accounts to June 2012; some 24 million in liabilities. No doubt we've paid most of that with this year's revenue but Gastn etc still aren't accounted for in those figures. http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/9618653.Saints_reveal_latest_financial_figures/ The debts were that amount before 2012 and totalled out at 35 million, so yes we did have a loss todate (That is everything from the day ML bought us to the end of that financial year 2011) The debt continued to rise and bottomed at 35 million - That was the total (Not in addition to the 24 million from 2011). That total was converted into equity in July of 2012. All of the debt you showed has gone, with the exception of the 3.2 BVI loan and any debt other we have accrued since then.
Mowgli Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Good grief. This thread reminds me of the old saying that if you put enough monkeys in a room full of typewriters... ...eventually, one of them will produce the works of Shakespeare. So I guess the correct answer is somewhere in the previous 12 pages but it will be more luck than judgment. Something tells me we will know more after tonights dinner!
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 The debts were that amount before 2012 and totalled out at 35 million, so yes we did have a loss todate (That is everything from the day ML bought us to the end of that financial year 2011) The debt continued to rise and bottomed at 35 million - That was the total (Not in addition to the 24 million from 2011). That total was converted into equity in July of 2012. All of the debt you showed has gone, with the exception of the 3.2 BVI loan and any debt other we have accrued since then. well I'll defer to your greater comprehension of the facts but I am still not convinced that the debt-equity conversion was in fact last year and not the year before. Perhaps someone who really follows that situation could comment.
JackanorySFC Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 don't think you're quite right. Debt was converted into equity in June or July 2011 and showed up in the 2011 accounts published in March 2012. Since then we've been bagging more losses and have considerable debt..as shown in the accounts to June 2012; some 24 million in liabilities. No doubt we've paid most of that with this year's revenue but Gastn etc still aren't accounted for in those figures. http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/9618653.Saints_reveal_latest_financial_figures/ According to Premier leagues rules I believe accounts have to be released every 6 months. The Swiss Ramble reported that during our Championship season the Liebherr's had bank rolled us by another £8.7m (heavily offset by the promotion money) and had converted that into equity. Now equity (not debt) totalled £38m. Player purchases (such as Gaston as you have mentioned) are not required to be shown up front. They are spread (quite rightly) over the period of the players contract. So, for example, Gaston cost £12m, that over 6 years is £2.4m per year on the accounts. According to Swiss Ramble we are expected to show a profit for 2012/13 and are well run with only one outstanding debt, the £3.2m BVI loan.
JackanorySFC Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 well I'll defer to your greater comprehension of the facts but I am still not convinced that the debt-equity conversion was in fact last year and not the year before. Perhaps someone who really follows that situation could comment. Just to confirm - that £24m of liabilities has since been converted to equity and will show on our accounts at the end if June 2013. The only reason Swiss Ramble (and others) know this is because Premier League rules show we must publish accounts every 6 months (I believe). Our financial situation is incredibly strong and we should show a profit this year, increasing next year due to new TV contract.
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 According to Premier leagues rules I believe accounts have to be released every 6 months. The Swiss Ramble reported that during our Championship season the Liebherr's had bank rolled us by another £8.7m (heavily offset by the promotion money) and had converted that into equity. Now equity (not debt) totalled £38m. Player purchases (such as Gaston as you have mentioned) are not required to be shown up front. They are spread (quite rightly) over the period of the players contract. So, for example, Gaston cost £12m, that over 6 years is £2.4m per year on the accounts. According to Swiss Ramble we are expected to show a profit for 2012/13 and are well run with only one outstanding debt, the £3.2m BVI loan. Gaston is on a 4 year contract and the deal could rise to 15 million (apparently)
JackanorySFC Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Gaston is on a 4 year contract and the deal could rise to 15 million (apparently) Good point. I expect those add ons will be commensurate with appearances, goals, Champs league qualification etc so we'll stick with £12m for now eh? ;-). Cost still spread out on financials over period of contract.
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 (edited) Just to confirm - that £24m of liabilities has since been converted to equity and will show on our accounts at the end if June 2013. The only reason Swiss Ramble (and others) know this is because Premier League rules show we must publish accounts every 6 months (I believe). Our financial situation is incredibly strong and we should show a profit this year, increasing next year due to new TV contract. But at the end of the day Markus's "hobby" has cost upwards of 62 million quid so far. Perhaps as I said before someone somewhere wants to see some return from next years PL bonanza and not blow it all on new CBs and strikers. I see some saying NC has done a fantastic job (which he has) turning a 15 million investment into a now worth 150 million juggernaut but the trouble is it isn't 15 million it's about 70 million. For which the family hasn't seen a bent penny in return. Edited 14 May, 2013 by Window Cleaner
JackanorySFC Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 But at the end of the day Markus's "hobby" has cost upwards 62 million quid so far. Perhaps as I said before someone somewhere wants to see some return from next years PL bonanza and not blow it all on new CBs and strikers. I see somesaying NC hasdone a fantastic job (which he has) turning a15 million investment into a now worth 150 million juggernaut but the trouble is it isn't 15 millin it's about 70 million. According to the April published financials for year ending June 2012 it's £41m - £2.5m in cash? Still more than £15m of course but no where near £70m.
Matthew Le God Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 93% of nearly 500 people is a better poll than most shampoo adverts!
trousers Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 (edited) well I'll defer to your greater comprehension of the facts but I am still not convinced that the debt-equity conversion was in fact last year and not the year before. Perhaps someone who really follows that situation could comment. Don't know if this helps: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17547804 ? (from March 2012) Southampton have revealed that £33m of loans invested in the club by the estate of former owner Markus Liebherr will not have to be paid back. The money was invested in the club over the two seasons to June 2011, but has now been converted into shares, removing it as a liability, Chief financial officer Gareth Rogers told BBC Radio Solent: "Effectively the club no longer owes that money." Saints made a net loss of £11.5m in winning League One promotion last term. Asked if the club no longer faced the prospect of having to repay the loan, Rogers replied: "Absolutely." Southampton were in administration and had just been relegated to League One when Swiss businessman Liebherr bought the club in 2009. He appointed Italian banker Nicola Cortese to run the club as executive chairman, and announced a five-year plan to return the Saints to the Premier League. Liebherr died in August 2010 but Cortese remains in charge. And having guided the club into the Championship last season, and with Saints currently enjoying a five-point lead at the top of the division, manager Nigel Adkins now looks likely to achieve consecutive promotions. Elsewhere the accounts show total revenue excluding transfers rose by 11% to £16.4m and that group wages made up 93% of turnover. But Rogers said supporters should not be concerned about the latter figure. "In isolation you could say it's a very scary figure, but in the context of the [five-year] plan it was expected. It includes £1.4m of one-off payments that won't re-occur." He also acknowledged wage costs have risen in the Championship, and would rise further if the club goes into the Premier League, but insisted the figure was being carefully matched with the increase in revenues. "The loss incurred to date is absolutely beneath what we expected, so perverse as it sounds, we're pleased with that size of loss," he said. "I am absolutely confident fans need not be concerned about the future financial stability of the club. "Nothing has changed operationally or strategically with Markus not being here. Nicola will drive the club forward and has every plan to do so." Edited 14 May, 2013 by trousers
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 According to the April published financials for year ending June 2012 it's £41m - £2.5m in cash? Still more than £15m of course but no where near £70m. I am getting confused here. It was 33 million; then another 8.7 then another 24 which you say is being converted into equity. To me that makes nigh on 70 million
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Don't know if this helps: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17547804 ? (from March 2012) yes March 2012 referring to accounts up to June 30 2011
trousers Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 93% of nearly 500 people is a better poll than most shampoo adverts! You could say we're head and shoulders above them...
Badger Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Close call for me, but I voted no, purely because if it comes down to having the Liebherrs' money or a new CEO I'd go with a new CEO. If it's just a matter of renegotiating Cortese's deal with a bit more Family involvement, I have no problem with him staying on - especially if they decide to rein in his more megalomaniacal tendencies. I also read it as the family wanting more involvement in the decision making, which is entirely reasonable if NC is looking to them to fund an extravagant phase of "his" project. Yes, NC has delivered, but no doubt Peter Ridsdale and God forbid, Peter Storrey , probably also saw themselves as football visionaries whilst spending in pursuit of glory.
Gemmel Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 I am getting confused here. It was 33 million; then another 8.7 then another 24 which you say is being converted into equity. To me that makes nigh on 70 million No it was 16 Total - Then 24 total then 38 total (Not in addition) The total spend to date (Which includes the 14 million purchase price) at the end of the Championship season was 38 million pounds, which was converted to equity
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 You could say we're head and shoulders above them... mais nous le vallons bien. (L'Oreal advert)
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 (edited) No it was 16 Total - Then 24 total then 38 total (Not in addition) The total spend to date (Which includes the 14 million purchase price) at the end of the Championship season was 38 million pounds, which was converted to equity And the 24 million in liabilites shown in the accounts to June 2012. Think you"ve lost yourself Just to confirm - that £24m of liabilities has since been converted to equity and will show on our accounts at the end if June 2013. The only reason Swiss Ramble (and others) know this is because Premier League rules show we must publish accounts every 6 months (I believe). It was already 40+ if there"s another 24 that makes 65 at least; make up your mind. Sorry look at what Jackanory has said; didn't look at the poster name as I see it the '"family" have taken a 65 million butt shot and are saying that's enough. Edited 14 May, 2013 by Window Cleaner
Saintjersey Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Where are the people saying they wanted Cortese out after Adkins was sacked? Bet your the same people now wishing he would stay. Well you might just get your wished for t ossers.
Saint_clark Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 You could say we're head and shoulders above them... Gtfo.
Smirking_Saint Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Gtfo. You have to take the dandrough with the smooth
buctootim Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 But at the end of the day Markus's "hobby" has cost upwards of 62 million quid so far. Perhaps as I said before someone somewhere wants to see some return from next years PL bonanza and not blow it all on new CBs and strikers. I see some saying NC has done a fantastic job (which he has) turning a 15 million investment into a now worth 150 million juggernaut but the trouble is it isn't 15 million it's about 70 million. For which the family hasn't seen a bent penny in return. Quite. On those figures he's turned a £70m investment into a club worth about £70m. Not quite as stonking as many would have us believe.
Matthew Le God Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 He's turned a £70m investment into a club worth about £70m. Not quite as stonking as many would have us believe. We are worth a lot more than £70m. John Madejski sold 51% of Reading for £40 million last season as a Championship club. Saints are a Premier League club in 2013/14, with a bigger stadium, bigger revenues, better training ground, better academy and Jackson's farm.
Turkish Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 We are worth a lot more than £70m. John Madejski sold 51% of Reading for £40 million last season as a Championship club. Saints are a Premier League club in 2013/14, with a bigger stadium, bigger revenues, better training ground, better academy and Jackson's farm. Reading have a bigger catchment area.
Batman Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Reading have a bigger catchment area. they also have a brilliant, young, vibrant manager who is going to be the greatest ever
stevegrant Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 We are worth a lot more than £70m. We're only worth what someone is willing to pay, and if someone is looking to make money from a football club, we're probably no longer a "great prospect" as the vast majority of the required investment and development has taken place in the last four years.
Turkish Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 they also have a brilliant, young, vibrant manager who is going to be the greatest ever The new Alex Ferguson, yes?
shurlock Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 We are worth a lot more than £70m. John Madejski sold 51% of Reading for £40 million last season as a Championship club. Saints are a Premier League club in 2013/14, with a bigger stadium, bigger revenues, better training ground, better academy and Jackson's farm. Reading have better office and printing supplies.
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 (edited) We're only worth what someone is willing to pay, and if someone is looking to make money from a football club, we're probably no longer a "great prospect" as the vast majority of the required investment and development has taken place in the last four years. 150 million sounds about right to me but few can pay that and finance the 40 to 50 million team investment we need to make us into a top side. We desperately need a real striker and unless Mauricio knows where we can get a Michu type for a couple of million we'll be paying through the nose like everybody else. This is where i think Adkins lack of knowledge in the upper atmsphere of football let us down; I like Gaston but you"d have to say Bologna saw us coming and someone needed to tell NC that, same as Mayuka and as for the reported 2.1 million for Gazzaniga well that's just a joke. Edited 14 May, 2013 by Window Cleaner
the saint in winchester Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 By "Cortese considering his position" ... is there any chance he is simply meaning he is considering moving to a seat a couple along from his existing position?
Wes Tender Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Quite. On those figures he's turned a £70m investment into a club worth about £70m. Not quite as stonking as many would have us believe. Have you voted yet? Judging by how average you believe Cortese to be and your other comments, I'm expecting a "no" vote any time now.
del boy Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 You could say we're head and shoulders above them... ...because we're worth it
CanadaSaint Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 I'm still not clear whether the Club is owned by a standalone trust created solely for that purpose, or by a broader trust encompassing a number of Marcus's other assets. Does anyone know?
Badger Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 I may have missed something but there seem to be two different stories; BBC & The Times NC wants to continue to run the club in the way he has, whilst the family / trust want other people to join him and change the structure of how the club is run. Independent / Echo and Associated Press NC wants the Trust / Family to match his ambitions and invest accordingly, so more of a financial issue as to how much they are prepared to invest. In my view it is impossible to argue against the Liebherr's/Trust's position in either stance, irrespective of the implications it might have for us. It may of course be a combination of the two, ie investment into the club, but not wanting to give the CEO a free hand as to how it is spent etc, I find it remarkable that for a club and CEO who play cards so close to their chest normally,this has 'filtered' out , perhaps it is merely a negotiation tactic, but suspect there is a lot more beneath the surface here, that we don't know yet, and may never know about NC's working relationship with the Trust.
del boy Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 I think I read, many pages ago, this was probably like a player coming to the end of his contract and stirring things a bit to get the best deal. Or maybe the Liebherrs don't like the cold and heartless way in which Nigel / Fat Mat / Franny / Laurie Mac / Programme sellers / most people were treated, or how everything is now just a project, no longer a football club. But most likely its as someone else wrote many pages ago - we just don't know! (at least we haven't involved Skacel yet)
CanadaSaint Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 In my view it is impossible to argue against the Liebherr's/Trust's position in either stance, irrespective of the implications it might have for us. It may of course be a combination of the two, ie investment into the club, but not wanting to give the CEO a free hand as to how it is spent etc, I find it remarkable that for a club and CEO who play cards so close to their chest normally,this has 'filtered' out , perhaps it is merely a negotiation tactic, but suspect there is a lot more beneath the surface here, that we don't know yet, and may never know about NC's working relationship with the Trust. I agree with that. And, if it was a deliberate leak, NC is playing a very dangerous game - unless he really does have new owners "up his sleeve", new owners who are not only ready to inject substantial funds but also to let him retain his power base.
Badger Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 I think I read, many pages ago, this was probably like a player coming to the end of his contract and stirring things a bit to get the best deal. Or maybe the Liebherrs don't like the cold and heartless way in which Nigel / Fat Mat / Franny / Laurie Mac / Programme sellers / most people were treated, or how everything is now just a project, no longer a football club. But most likely its as someone else wrote many pages ago - we just don't know! (at least we haven't involved Skacel yet) If they have been keeping a watch on things, then it has crossed my mind that the Adkins sacking, and alienation of people around the club by the CEO might not sit comfortably with the way in which Marcus Liebherr, and his father are reported to have conducted their business affairs, in building their companies. As for the Benali courtcase, we read when ML came in about expecting all to pay for tickets etc., and yet it is rumoured that SFC were funding legal costs of an employee in this action. How does that sit with the owners ? No we don't know, but there may indeed be side issues between owner and Chief Executive here, as well as how much will you allow me to spend on a centre forward ?
hutch Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 A lot of people making up a lot of random numbers on here tonight. If you spend a few minutes and do a bit of homework, you'll find that Swiss Ramble, who's opinion on football finance I respect, told us last month that at 30 June last year (before we had received a single penny from the PL or Sky), our net debt was £39.4m. He went on to say, and I quote "Figures will be better in PL, even without any big player sales in 12/13. Almost all debt converted to share capital now". Anybody who is trying to convince you otherwise with dodgy maths and made up numbers just has an agenda. "The Liebherrs" total investment is about £33m, and Cortese has tripled that investment over the last 4 years. But the growth has probably peaked, and if I was only in it for the money I would get out now. There are much more lucrative opportunities in the market today for £100m in cash than investing it in a football club.
lotois-saint Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 To be fair, Marcus made his motivations perfectly clear when he rescued the club... It was a hobby and something that would give him a great deal of pleasure to see what he and Nicola could make of Anyone who saw him at Wembley will have seen he quickly came to love what being an owner can do; it is one of the saddest things that he is no longer around to see us progress as we have. Nicola, I believe is motivated by the challenge and what that means for him and his reputation, but it would be disingenuous in the extreme to deny that he is not also motivated by fullfilling the ambitions of his dear friend, and sometimes folk on here forget that. As for Markus' family, it would be wrong to second guess their interest or motivation. But again a lot will come down to the memory of their family member and wanting to honour his wishes and dreams. ' Power and money?' Well in part maybe... I speculate that as we have now secured prem status, Cortese has shared the plan and that ambitious plan requires serious funding. As such the family need to approve and feel comfortable that this is an appropriate way to go. Therefore it's possible that this is all a storm in a teacup when reality is that we have now come to a new phase that requires new money.... So why is anyone surprised that this will mean discussion and negotiation, or do clever and smart people simply hand over blank cheques? - certainly not how wealth is protected. I hope that is the case, but who knows, we shall see, but all this additional speculation on 'failings out' or Liebherrs not being happy with NC etc is probably about as inaccurate as it is helpful. It may see a parting of the ways if no agreement can be reached, always possible, but to dismiss Corteses's influence and impact on our 4 year progress is as naive as it is disingenuous. Without leadership and direction of a high calibre, money alone is not enough and whilst there are undoubtedly very good CEOs out there, don't under estimate the impact of Markus ad NCs friendship in driving the commitment to success. Probably the most sensible post in all the 18 pages of speculation.
itchen Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 So that's 18 pages of speculation then. Anybody learned anything?
Window Cleaner Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 (edited) A lot of people making up a lot of random numbers on here tonight. If you spend a few minutes and do a bit of homework, you'll find that Swiss Ramble, who's opinion on football finance I respect, told us last month that at 30 June last year (before we had received a single penny from the PL or Sky), our net debt was £39.4m. He went on to say, and I quote "Figures will be better in PL, even without any big player sales in 12/13. Almost all debt converted to share capital now". Anybody who is trying to convince you otherwise with dodgy maths and made up numbers just has an agenda. "The Liebherrs" total investment is about £33m, and Cortese has tripled that investment over the last 4 years. But the growth has probably peaked, and if I was only in it for the money I would get out now. There are much more lucrative opportunities in the market today for £100m in cash than investing it in a football club. It's not 33 million though is it. It was 33 million in July 2011. Resulting from the initial purchase and the first 2 years in League 1 since then we have made some handsome losses.In last years accounts (those to June 2012) the book value of the club was very nearly minus 50 million pounds including 2 million at the bank and 8 million in assets. When you do the maths the club has lost 60 million in 4 seasons. Since then we have no doubt received 65 million in revenues and blown it on salaries and transfer fees. Transfers of about 33 miilion and about the same in salaries. Factor in the operating costs and we'll make diddly squat again this season; especially with Nigel's pay off and Cortese"s bonus. It cost us 1.4 million to send AP and his team packing, NA will not cost less. Edited 14 May, 2013 by Window Cleaner
Minsk Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 So that's 18 pages of speculation then. Anybody learned anything? Yes, the Skate fans who peruse this site and have voted on the subject want Cortese to go. I guess that says something. Some VERY vocal posters on here haven't voted either way. I think that says something too!
Batman Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 quite odd, Bucktootim says Cortese has done a 'poor job' but he has not voted?
buctootim Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 (edited) So that's 18 pages of speculation then. Anybody learned anything? I did. I learned that in two years Cortese has been catapaulted from evil **** who can do no right to fans deity who is the source of all light, and milk, and honey. Balance, let me introduce you to crowd hysteria. Dontcha just love it? Edited 14 May, 2013 by buctootim
stevegrant Posted 14 May, 2013 Posted 14 May, 2013 Some VERY vocal posters on here haven't voted either way. I think that says something too! I've not voted - as with so many things, I don't think it's a case of black or white, there's a murky shade of grey in there which largely represents where I stand. While I fully appreciate the good work that has been done over the last 4 years, particularly on the pitch, I don't think the club (or the Liebherr Trust) should be held to ransom (if indeed that is what is happening - we simply don't know for sure) and I also believe there are many other people out there who could do a similar job and even improve on things in the future. No one person is bigger than the club, so if Cortese did bugger off I'd say thank you for the many good things he's done, **** you for the many (much more minor by comparison) **** things he's done, and look forward to the club's next chapter. Should Cortese stay? Yes, if it's in everybody's interests to do so. If it's not mutually beneficial then a parting of the ways is probably for the best.
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