Cortese 'Considering his position'

[Smirking_Saint]

Pity. As ever its not wise to step outside the sheep like orthodoxy on here. People have a pretty simplistic view - the team has done well so the man in charge must be doing well.

 

Cortese has some good attributes, chiefly a drive to succeed and an ambitious vision. He's not a great Executive Chairman / CEO though, his people management and customer relations skills are too poor for that.

 

Yes of the course the team have done fantastically well the past few years. Good managers being given a playing and transfer budget three times the average in Lg1 and double the average in the championship helped a bit. Buying the best players in the division tends to give you an edge. The measure of a really good chairman is - can you get your club to over perform? Swansea, Norwich, Wigan and Cardiff are the real examples of that.

 

Cortese would have achieved very little on an average Lg1 budget without the Liebherr's money and support. The Liebherrs however would have likely achieved just as much with any other CEO who is of average or better than average competence.

 

I don't necessarily want him to go, but he definitely needs to be reined in by an older, people savvier influence on the board.

 

We really dont know what a new CEO would have achieved Tim, any of that is just conjecture, we also dont know if a new CEO would have had more or less contacts in the footballing world, a view that the academy and youth is the way forward or even that the Ox was worth fighting for.

 

Its opinions like anyone elses, Im certainly not going to say your wrong, thats up to you. What I will say is that I am willing to forgive his misdemeanors as he has set out and delivered what he promised, and for me that is what any manager at any level should be judged on, especially that of a CEO

[alpine_saint]

Million dollar question Frank, but if it was just a financial decision the family would be mad not to let NC continue as he has proved he is more than capable of "looking after" their investment. But it is a game of stick and bust for them and they might feel it can't get much better than it currently is. ie time to cash in, if (big if) a buyer is out there?

On the other hand if this disagreement is based on ethical matters it may be harder to resolve.

 

I never truly understood why ML got involved, we were a good buy and sound investment but he did not need the money. As far as I am aware he had no real previous interest or involvement in football (I could be wrong here). But he and NC made a good team - he was probably a good guiding influence on the younger man which was sadly lost when he passed away. I always felt that to have been a bigger blow than we all thought at the time and am fairly sure were Marcus still alive this contretemps would have been nipped in the bud.

 

I very much want Cortese to stay, if only for pure footballing reasons - he has ambition, proven ability to carry it out and he has become experienced in handling a football club. I wish, like many of us, some things were done differently but there is no doubt he has more than delivered in so many areas. I just hope this is resolved quickly because no one benefits from all this uncertainty. So brinkmanship and resolution for me.

 

Gets my vote. Good post.

[Mallagroth]

[aintforever]

I voted for Cortese to stay as he has obviously done a good job and any instability is a bad thing in our current position.

 

But I don't see why him leaving is some sort of disaster. There is no reason why he couldn't be replaced with an equally capable CEO and the club would carry on without the slightest bit of disruption. We don't know all the facts so it's hard to criticise whatever decision the owners make. It's their money.

[shurlock]

Pity. As ever its not wise to step outside the sheep like orthodoxy on here. People have a pretty simplistic view - the team has done well so the man in charge must be doing well.

 

Cortese has some good attributes, chiefly a drive to succeed and an ambitious vision. He's not a great Executive Chairman / CEO though, his people management and customer relations skills are too poor for that.

 

Yes of the course the team have done fantastically well the past few years. Good managers being given a playing and transfer budget three times the average in Lg1 and double the average in the championship helped a bit. Buying the best players in the division tends to give you an edge. The measure of a really good chairman is - can you get your club to over perform? Swansea, Norwich, Wigan and Cardiff are the real examples of that.

 

Cortese would have achieved very little on an average Lg1 budget without the Liebherr's money and support. The Liebherrs however would have likely achieved just as much with any other CEO who is of average or better than average competence.

 

I don't necessarily want him to go, but he definitely needs to be reined in by an older, people savvier influence on the board.

 

L1 clearly not but you think we didn't overperform in the champ? We were the ultimate overperformers -there are teams throwing money at getting up but falling short each and every season in that division.

 

Of course, that puts Adkins achievements in as good, if not better light than NCs. But as a collective effort, its certainly an example of overperformance.

[Mallagroth]

I voted for Cortese to stay as he has obviously done a good job and any instability is a bad thing in our current position.

 

But I don't see why him leaving is some sort of disaster. There is no reason why he couldn't be replaced with an equally capable CEO and the club would carry on without the slightest bit of disruption. We don't know all the facts so it's hard to criticise whatever decision the owners make. It's their money.

 

The fear comes from the only other chairman of note in our recent history, and the dubious activity and commitment of the chairman at a number of other clubs.

[buctootim]

We really dont know what a new CEO would have achieved Tim, any of that is just conjecture, we also dont know if a new CEO would have had more or less contacts in the footballing world, a view that the academy and youth is the way forward or even that the Ox was worth fighting for.

 

Its opinions like anyone elses, Im certainly not going to say your wrong, thats up to you. What I will say is that I am willing to forgive his misdemeanors as he has set out and delivered what he promised, and for me that is what any manager at any level should be judged on, especially that of a CEO

 

 

Fair comment, both are reasonable points of view to take from looking at the facts. I stick by my view that the greatest driver of our success has been the Liebherr's amazing financial backing and a good manager, not Cortese's 'amazing' skills.

Edited 14 May, 2013 by buctootim

[dubai_phil]

That will make a pleasant change:)

 

Norm's a Deviant?

 

Wow never worked that out from his postings on here.

 

Interesting debate on this thread, and interesting that a number of newer posters are adding value and their (welcome if not agreed with) opinions on here.

 

Almost like the Old Days.

 

Perhaps should pop some nice bottles of Chardonnay in the Fridge for the rest of the week, just in case

[buctootim]

L1 clearly not but you think we didn't overperform in the champ? We were the ultimate overperformers -there are teams throwing money at getting up but falling short each and every season in that division.

 

Of course, that puts Adkins achievements in as good, if not better light than NCs. But as a collective effort, its certainly an example of overperformance.

 

We did well that year - but we got promoted in second with the second or third highest budget in the championship. Reading were actually the real over performers.

[Glasgow_Saint]

are we voting for Cortese to stay or for the Liebherr's to stay? For me the two are the same

 

I think is Cortese leaves its a strong indication that the club is for sale

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Not sure what to make of all the different stories but I am going to guess that Cortese has the football bug and wants to deliver beyond the original remit and would like financial support to do so.

 

Also it is a bit weird to have a 5-year plan and only give someone in charge of it all a 4-year contract.

[aintforever]

The fear comes from the only other chairman of note in our recent history, and the dubious activity and commitment of the chairman at a number of other clubs.

 

It is obviously a concern, but as we don't know all the facts it's hard to judge whatever decision the owners make. Cortese has shown how good he is at running the club but it's not his money at stake.

[Bucks Saint]

Of course for most other clubs, though not all, the chairman is the owner, or at least one of the owners. Hence they rarely get fired or move on. For us we have three important parties, rather than two:

 

Owners / funders

Chairman

Manager

 

No quibble from me that NC had done a great job and I would like him to stay. A change of chairman now would be a disruption. But not a disaster - of the above list of three, he is the least important IMO. Not saying its an easy role, nor unimportant. But nonetheless, its the least important of the three

[Bearsy]

ironic if the Liebherr's have identified an upcoming european chief executive who they think can better achieve the clubs ambitions. ideally one who don't speak english yo

[Colinjb]

are we voting for Cortese to stay or for the Liebherr's to stay? For me the two are the same

 

Once upon a time that may well have been true, for me it was when Markus took over. Without Cortese there would have been no Markus Leibherr, now though there does seem to be something of a rift between Cortese and the Leibherr estate.

[Glasgow_Saint]

Once upon a time that may well have been true, for me it was when Markus took over. Without Cortese there would have been no Markus Leibherr, now though there does seem to be something of a rift between Cortese and the Leibherr estate.

 

Perhaps they just arent happy with the Adkins pay-off invoice! questioning the sense of sacking a manager that has delivered so much and replaced him with someone who has done so little. Plus the circa £1m+ charge for doing it

[.comsaint]

Well one thing's for sure. If NC does go - I'm hopeful that he'd have some say/input/advice to the Liebherrs as regards who to sell to?

 

After all, I'm guessing he feels very responsible for the likes of MP and his coaching staff (for example) - not to just bail out and leave them in the lurch?

[Glasgow_Saint]

Well one thing's for sure. If NC does go - I'm hopeful that he'd have some say/input/advice to the Liebherrs as regards who to sell to?

 

After all, I'm guessing he feels very responsible for the likes of MP and his coaching staff (for example) - not to just bail out and leave them in the lurch?

 

dont recall many examples of Nicola showing signs of sentiment and/or conscience in the past? why would he change now?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Fair comment, both are reasonable points of view to take from looking at the facts. I stick by my view that the greatest driver of our success has been the Liebherr's amazing financial backing and a good manager, not Cortese's 'amazing' skills.

 

Look at Tony Fernandes. QPR have massively outspent most of the league. How has that gone for them?

 

Money alone does not win things.

 

Cortese has been backed, but he has invested wisely. It's foolhardy to diminish his achievements simply because Saints have spent money.

[conaero]

Bet Adkins is smiling now.

[Mallagroth]

Look at Tony Fernandes. QPR have massively outspent most of the league. How has that gone for them?

 

Money alone does not win things.

 

Cortese has been backed, but he has invested wisely. It's foolhardy to diminish his achievements simply because Saints have spent money.

 

Agreed. For further example look to Leicester last year. At the start of the season they spent a fortune, as predicted by many and same as QPR, they ****ed it.

Chelsea does not win the title every year either as comparison.

 

we shouldn't write off what Cortese has had the mind to do. We may not agree with all of it but we are reaping the reward and promise nevetheless.

Edited 14 May, 2013 by Mallagroth

[.comsaint]

dont recall many examples of Nicola showing signs of sentiment and/or conscience in the past? why would he change now?

 

True - of course. I'm assuming that as we were a "Markus purchase" - his good friend, he'd feel somewhat inclined to ensure we are in good hands - should he depart?

[stevegrant]

The fear comes from the only other chairman of note in our recent history, and the dubious activity and commitment of the chairman at a number of other clubs.

There's certainly a great deal of weight in the "better the devil you know" argument in this scenario.

 

No reason why we couldn't find another chairman/CEO who is equally or more capable than Cortese, but also just as likely to find someone who's useless.

[Saint_clark]

Bless, two Pompey fans have voted "no" in the poll

[shurlock]

We did well that year - but we got promoted in second with the second or third highest budget in the championship. Reading were actually the real over performers.

 

In net terms i.e. with the sale of Oxo, we didn't spend much. Getting out of the championship at the first attempt on a relatively disciplined budget is overperformance anyway you slice it. For most of the season, we battled the perception among other clubs that we were overachievers and would fall back to our natural station.

 

Some of your other examples are a tad odd. Take Cardiff: They've spent a decent amount and whatever prudence theyve demonstrated can be attributed to the necessary economising following the follies of the 2010/11 season when they gambled big time and lost.

[Charlie Wayman]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/10416746.Decision_on_Cortese_s_future__soon__as_contract_break_looms/?ref=fb

 

Odd how his contract situation has only just come out now. If Cortese leaves, I think the Liebherr's will try and sell up.

 

Typical of the Echo to stick the effing knife in at every opportunity. I hope Cortese stays and continues to stick two big fat ones up at them. This is one of the many reasons why I don't buy that useless rag anymore.

[Mallagroth]

""""Bet Adkins is smiling now. """"

 

sadly I doubt it, not with the wet 5hits he has just inherited. He is going to be a busy boy building a whole new bus this pre-season.

[S-Clarke]

Bless, two Pompey fans have voted "no" in the poll

 

That's 50% of their fanbase right there.

[holepuncture]

The single most important figure to Southampton Football Club: Nicola Cortese.

 

Yes, and the most important figure in SFC history since MLT.

 

Sorry, thats not sycophancy, its a fact.

 

I share your views.

 

Only the bedwetters are panicking.

 

I find your antagonism of everyone rather amusing and I am delighted a major forum player with your caliber and pedigree have launched me to almost celebrity status by involving me in your game... however I cant help but think you must have more purpose in life than this... your trolling shows 18k+ posts of this type of material?!

[buctootim]

Look at Tony Fernandes. QPR have massively outspent most of the league. How has that gone for them?

 

Money alone does not win things.

 

Cortese has been backed, but he has invested wisely. It's foolhardy to diminish his achievements simply because Saints have spent money.

 

Im not diminishing them. The fact is that there are clueless loons who are easily parted from their money and some genuinely very able chairman who are able to make their clubs successful with very limited resources. I agree with Bucks Saint - out of the Liebbherrs, Adkins/Pardew and Cortese I would put Cortese as having the least direct responsibility for our rise.

[Charlie Wayman]

After all, I'm guessing he feels very responsible for the likes of MP and his coaching staff (for example) - not to just bail out and leave them in the lurch?

 

Really? What a quaint old world you live in. Even twenty-five years ago I knew of guys who received new company cars the day they were made redundant.

 

People like Cortese have no sentiment in their bodies but I can live with that as long as he's the best at what he does and he is probably.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Im not diminishing them. The fact is that there are clueless loons who are easily parted from their money and some genuinely very able chairman who are able to make their clubs successful with very limited resources. I agree with Bucks Saint - out of the Liebbherrs, Adkins/Pardew and Cortese I would put Cortese as having the least direct responsibility for our rise.

 

Errrm, that ignores the fact that without Cortese, none of Liebherr, Pardew, Adkins, Pochettino, Rickie Lambert, and probably players like Lallana or Morgan would be here.

[buctootim]

Errrm, that ignores the fact that without Cortese, none of Liebherr, Pardew, Adkins, Pochettino, Rickie Lambert, and probably players like Lallana or Morgan would be here.

 

Course it does. These are all things you know for a fact.

[Saint Charlie]

The Football Editor of The Times lapped up a completely made-up story by a French blog site about a Qatari Super League and ran it as a major exclusive, so I wouldn't read too much into his endorsement

 

Apart from this time he has reported what Cortese has told him. I don't doubt the source, its just the motivations that are unclear.

[Matthew Le God]

Errrm, that ignores the fact that without Cortese, none of Liebherr, Pardew, Adkins, Pochettino, Rickie Lambert, and probably players like Lallana or Morgan would be here.

 

They aren't and Cortese is the reason they aren't.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Course it does. These are all things you know for a fact.

 

Markus Liebherr stated very early on he would not have bought Southampton without Cortese.

 

So that, I can state is fact.

 

The rest, speculative perhaps, but how likely is it that another owner, possibly with someone else running the club would have then picked the same managers, made the same signings etc. Does that seem likely to you?

Edited 14 May, 2013 by KelvinsRightGlove
Typo

[KelvinsRightGlove]

He isn't.

 

Neither is Pardew, it's quite obvious what I meant.

[Glasgow_Saint]

If Cortese's contract is nearing the end and he is hoping to impress his employees you’d have to question his recent business decisions

 

- Sacking a great manager who has taken us from L1 to the Premiership – costing £m’s

- Sacked a number of staff members costs £1000’s in compensation

- Recruited a new manager and staff with a less than impressive CV – gamble cost £m’s

- Recruiting a number of translators costing £1000’s

- Signed Forren for £4m – ouch

 

All this in the past 3-4 months when he has presumably been under more scrutiny than normal?

 

Stinks of career suicide to me!!??

[Matthew Le God]

No reason why we couldn't find another chairman/CEO who is equally or more capable than Cortese, but also just as likely to find someone who's useless.

 

I don't think you can put any odds on it, let alone odds of 50/50.

[genuis]

I think everything will turn out fine

[OldNick]

Just when things are looking rosy!!! I really hope NC stays, he has the drive and vision i have never seen before at our football club in over 45 years of supporting our beloved team

[Mallagroth]

Im not diminishing them. The fact is that there are clueless loons who are easily parted from their money and some genuinely very able chairman who are able to make their clubs successful with very limited resources. I agree with Bucks Saint - out of the Liebbherrs, Adkins/Pardew and Cortese I would put Cortese as having the least direct responsibility for our rise.

 

Wow, I really struggle with this, I get the debate over Markus or Cortese as they came together hand in hand and it's near semantics to argue who was the more interested party. But to suggest that Adkins or Pardew had more impact on our current success than the Don is pretty hard to chew as he gave them their jobs after interview. He has to take responsibility for when a manager is **** so it is only fair that he gets the credit when they turn out to be great. And fair play he does it when most of us are still in the early stages of denial about the situation.

[Gemmel]

The main stay of the MALI group appears to be just a investment company - Buying and selling shares, land etc. Without further investment (Considerable, full of risk and no guarantees of return), then we, "SFC", are about as close to our optimum value as we are ever likely to be. I have no idea what it would cost to buy us, but it is considerably more than the 35 million it has cost them to bring us to this point, that would deliver a very healthy return and the realization of their Fathers wishes(Assumed) to return the Club to the Premier League.

 

So whist non of us do have any idea whether the Club is for sale, I don't think it is a huge leap of faith, to consider that it might be, or (As with any investment at any time) that they would at least listen to any offers.

 

The alternative to not selling, is to "Stick" or "Twist". Do they simply "Stick" and retain ownership and develop the club within it's own means, or do they "Twist" again (Which could cost a huge amount of money) and try and push the club on further and really go for European dream?

 

It would take a love for the Club and a passion for football, to take the "twist" option and I don't think there is a single poster who has a clue where the family or trustees affections lie. In the cold light of day, the options for the trust could be as simple swap the club for 100 million in its coffers or keep the club and handover 50 million. Of course it isn't that black and white, but you get the gist.

[Mallagroth]

Apart from this time he has reported what Cortese has told him. I don't doubt the source, its just the motivations that are unclear.

 

* this

[Smirking_Saint]

I don't think you can put any odds on it, let alone odds of 50/50.

 

Did you really need to pick him up on that MLG ? We all know what he meant.

[Matthew Le God]

Did you really need to pick him up on that MLG ? We all know what he meant.

 

Surely you know me by now?

Edited 14 May, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[Depressed of Shirley]

But does English law state that "the interests of the beneficiaries" are limited to maximum profit?

 

The trouble is that it is all in hindsight. If the Trust funds the club and it wins the Champions League, then it was a good investment. If we end up spending more and more to stay 14th, and there is no profit then it isn't.

 

The issue is judged after the event, so the trustees will be looking to provide a return for the beneficiaries at the lowest level of risk. If they have been advised that the best way of providing for the beneficiaries is to buy shares of major public companies, Gilts etc, that are lower risk than a PL football club, then if they don't follow that advice and it goes wrong, they have failed in their duty.

 

I doubt this is the whole story, and the trust may well be holding assets in total that make the football club only a small part (in fact I'm certain this is the case). Up until now, they have written off £33m in return for the shares of the business. If they now have or are about to get an offer of £100m, then it is their duty to look at that offer.

 

Also, we don't know if the trustees and beneficiaries are one and the same, as that may change the picture as well. Somewhere though, there will be a professional trustee who sees it as his responsibility to advise the other trustees that this investment may not ever be worth as much as it is now.

 

We just don't know if this is about Cortese needing control, or the trust making investments for the beneficiaries, or both. They have done well under NC to this point, but that is no guarantee that things will continue on an upward trend.

[buctootim]

Wow, I really struggle with this, I get the debate over Markus or Cortese as they came together hand in hand and it's near semantics to argue who was the more interested party. But to suggest that Adkins or Pardew had more impact on our current success than the Don is pretty hard to chew as he gave them their jobs after interview. He has to take responsibility for when a manager is **** so it is only fair that he gets the credit when they turn out to be great. And fair play he does it when most of us are still in the early stages of denial about the situation.

 

I give him credit for making two good manager appointments and also made some good signings. He also made a reckless manager sacking, signed players for £20m who have made little impact, alienated the press, oversaw the complete shambles that is hospitality / catering / box office, lost numerous staff who couldn't work with him and got the club sued by suppliers. Overall, about average.

[Dig Dig]

Im not diminishing them. The fact is that there are clueless loons who are easily parted from their money and some genuinely very able chairman who are able to make their clubs successful with very limited resources. I agree with Bucks Saint - out of the Liebbherrs, Adkins/Pardew and Cortese I would put Cortese as having the least direct responsibility for our rise.

 

What about chairman who use resources to achieve on field success whilst also backing the future of the club with state of the art infrastructure which will benefit the club for years once they have left? Cortese has done far more than just chuked a few pennies at the team. Even players we recruit are part of a wider philosophy which benefits the club in getting, in the most part, young and talented players with the capacity to grow and improve and at least retain value....with the right attitude to boot.

 

Nothing which we have achieved has happened by accident, even unpopular managerial decisions have been correct. How many get 3 in a row right?

 

Given that we had just come through the shambles of administration which no identity and infrastructure in place, to get to where we have in the timeframe we have is a remarkable achievement and if anyone wishes to downplay that achievement then I would question their motive as to why.

[Smirking_Saint]

I give him credit for making two good manager appointments and also made some good signings. He also made a reckless manager sacking, signed players for £20m who have made little impact, alienated the press, oversaw the complete shambles that is hospitality / catering / box office, lost numerous staff who couldn't work with him and got the club sued by suppliers. Overall, about average.

 

We ignoring the money he has put into infrastructure ? Into the scouting network and medics/sport science department ? The work I KNOW is going on behind the scenes to improve the way we operate as a club in a footballing sense ?

 

All of those are more meaningful to me as a football supporter first and foremost, youget that bit right then we can look upon other areas of the club. Of tgat 20m on players the only one I personally see as afailure is Mayuka aswell.

 

You can rewrite history but we are not f*cking HMV, I dont look at Utd and say wow, look at their anazing hospitallity and free parking. I look st their success as a club. We all laughed at Lowes branded dreams of the saint radio station and world class catering, the man could not achieve success on the field and that was his downfall.

 

I really do get bemused at times to what is more important to the fans, I assume the football club as a sporting entity is just a secondary distraction to you then tim ? As you seem to have a higher affiliation to the intricate runnings of the behind the scenes and mundane.