The9 Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Find it very odd that Puncheon has gone from probably our first choice in the 'attacking 3' positions, to the 6th. J-Rod, Davis, Lallana, Gaston, Guly, Punch, Mayuka seems to be the pecking order for those 3 positions. Puncheon probably would have started on Saturday had he not been up all night for the birth of his child, so I'm not convinced about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 against spurs, LAMBART did not touch ball once in opposition penalty box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Oh, didn't know about that. Still he'd be getting in my first XI. Seems since he signed his contract he's gone missing. Was a key part of beating Man City and Chelsea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 against spurs, LAMBART did not touch ball once in opposition penalty box. And lost all four of his ariel duels, and a 66% pass completion rate. Safe to say he didn't have a great game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 And lost all four of his ariel duels, and a 66% pass completion rate. Safe to say he didn't have a great game. as I said in the build up thread, he'd get nothing when faced with Vertonghen and Dawson, good free kick though. We really do need to sort out our striker situation before next season. I know it's obvious but the best sides in the PL have the best strikers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 He's not become a bad player overnight, but he isn't getting the service that he was getting at the start of the season. Our crossing has been poor the last few weeks. J-Rod and Lallana both aren't great at crossing, Gaston's crossing is very hit and miss, Puncheon's is better IMO. I just don't think we're getting down the line and getting the ball into dangerous areas enough. Having said that, Vertonghen is a superb CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 He's not become a bad player overnight, but he isn't getting the service that he was getting at the start of the season. Our crossing has been poor the last few weeks. J-Rod and Lallana both aren't great at crossing, Gaston's crossing is very hit and miss, Puncheon's is better IMO. I just don't think we're getting down the line and getting the ball into dangerous areas enough. Having said that, Vertonghen is a superb CB. He's not become a bad player overnight no, but I'd say he's lost a yard or two of late and he's never been the fastest in the realm either. Just not getting on the end of anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 He's been playing against some decent centre backs recently who have (unlike Ferdinand and Vidic at the start of the season) been briefed on how to deal with him, specifically what to do when he drops into midfield. It was very obvious even against West Ham that they had a plan for him dropping into the hole and our forward passing infield has been pretty ineffective recently. West Brom had numbers back and space was at a premium, and Spurs are a good side playing well - and to be fair we still had the better of that game, because having said that, we're still getting forward out wide and are creating chances despite the limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 He's not become a bad player overnight, but he isn't getting the service that he was getting at the start of the season. Our crossing has been poor the last few weeks. J-Rod and Lallana both aren't great at crossing, Gaston's crossing is very hit and miss, Puncheon's is better IMO. I just don't think we're getting down the line and getting the ball into dangerous areas enough. Having said that, Vertonghen is a superb CB. You can cross the ball as much as you want if Rickie isnt making it into the box he still isnt going to score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSaint Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Lambert hasn't become a bad player overnight, but the big problem we have is that if opposition CBs can beat him in the air and limit the time he has on the ball so he can't pick out the passes he poses no threat as he lacks the pace and footwork to run at defenders or get in behind. You can't really blame Lambert for lacking pace or mobility as it's beyond his control, the only bit he could work on is trying to curb his tendency to drop really deep when things aren't going his way. It seems harsh, given Lambert has scored 14 goals and probably got the most assists in the team, but in a system where there is a lone striker you need a player who has pace, power and a decent range of passing, basically the complete package. Can't say that Lambert, or any of our current CFs fit into that description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Lambert's hold up play and passing was a good as ever at Spurs, just didn't look like scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggface Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 I would be surprised if he is not carrying an injury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroppie Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 I would be surprised if he is not carrying an injury I thought that on Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 7 May, 2013 Author Share Posted 7 May, 2013 No, because he was very good in the first half of the season, and still so important to us. However the last few games he hasn't been great. If someone isn't playing very well then I'm happy to say it, rather than just moan about him for the last 4 seasons. Nail on head. The9 is clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Just on Sky buildup, Lambert has created the most chances of any player in the bottom half....by quite a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redder freak Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Lambert's playing more as an attacking midfielder now than a striker. The striker is supposed to be Rodriguez. When he's on form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 (edited) Nail on head. The9 is clueless. Though strangely almost everyone on this thread is agreeing with my appraisal of him all season long, which hasn't changed. I tend to use actual facts, and rational questioning to present a coherent argument based on my interpretation of the evidence before me : He's been playing against some decent centre backs recently who have (unlike Ferdinand and Vidic at the start of the season) been briefed on how to deal with him, specifically what to do when he drops into midfield. It was very obvious even against West Ham that they had a plan for him dropping into the hole and our forward passing infield has been pretty ineffective recently. West Brom had numbers back and space was at a premium, and Spurs are a good side playing well - and to be fair we still had the better of that game, because having said that, we're still getting forward out wide and are creating chances despite the limitations. as opposed to just calling someone "clueless" and dismissing all arguments they might ever have on a subject. It's quite a sad indictment of your lack of capacity to present a coherent argument yourself that you just throw around insults instead. I may as well have just spent the past 2 months actually slagging him off rather than constantly posting neutral opinions of how it could be the system or tactical failings elsewhere rather than mentioning his abilities, seeing as some people have already decided I hate him (I don't), I've always thought he was rubbish (I don't even think he's rubbish now) and that because he does some good stuff sometimes, everything he ever does in a Saints shirt is going to be wonderful (it isn't). I'm actually going to completely stop posting about him now, because the couple of months of just talking around the subject hasn't even been noticed, and I still get the same old crap from the same polar opposite views irrespective of what I actually say. Edited 7 May, 2013 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Lambert's hold up play and passing was a good as ever at Spurs, just didn't look like scoring. I was going to say "exactly", but actually the stats suggest his passing was significantly worse than usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redder freak Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Perhaps he's turning into our Torres? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 I'm going to get rounded on, probably fairly, but I want to see us sign someone better in the summer. Absolutely not as #1 priority signing, CB all day long. But I think if we are going to progress, we can't play with Rickie every game. I think he is a brilliant, and fantastically intelligent player. Without doubt, his signing was the most crucial in our ascent back to the prem, and the guy is rightly a legend. I'm a huge fan of his. I just really feel if things don't work out with him in a game, there's no alternative. We can become a bit blunt and predictable at times. Although it is equally arguable that this is also the blame of 'the 3'. I'm not saying get rid of him, just if we really want to progress, then sooner or later, an upgrade is required. Still love the bloke though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Just on Sky buildup, Lambert has created the most chances of any player in the bottom half....by quite a long way. That's super, if we want to be in the bottom half, right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 That's super, if we want to be in the bottom half, right ? He was actually something like 7th or 8th overall too. Theywere just showing that Maloney was also quite creative although nowhere near Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 He was actually something like 7th or 8th overall too. Theywere just showing that Maloney was also quite creative although nowhere near Lambert. I'm unable to reply to this as any comment that Maloney plays a different role and is often away from attacking positions will only get misinterpreted by the usuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 He was actually something like 7th or 8th overall too. Theywere just showing that Maloney was also quite creative although nowhere near Lambert. Once again though, Ill pop up with that old adage that a striker should be judged in his goalscoring first and foremost. Plus Maloney is a midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 7 May, 2013 Share Posted 7 May, 2013 Once again though, Ill pop up with that old adage that a striker should be judged in his goalscoring first and foremost. Plus Maloney is a midfielder. Trouble with it is it IS a bit old, all that false 9 and 4-6-0 stuff makes it tricky to even judge a central striker in a 4-5-1 (or derivative) on purely goals, as it's goals for the team overall is what matters (an adage I frequently adhered to as a player by deciding the best option for the team was usually for me to try and score - which to be fair used to be true at some levels ). Comes back to the "does building a system around a player inhibit the team's ability when that player isn't there / the system isn't working against the opposing system / what if there's a better system with different squad personnel" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 Trouble with it is it IS a bit old, all that false 9 and 4-6-0 stuff makes it tricky to even judge a central striker in a 4-5-1 (or derivative) on purely goals, as it's goals for the team overall is what matters (an adage I frequently adhered to as a player by deciding the best option for the team was usually for me to try and score - which to be fair used to be true at some levels ). Comes back to the "does building a system around a player inhibit the team's ability when that player isn't there / the system isn't working against the opposing system / what if there's a better system with different squad personnel" argument. I disagree, for a long time I have said that If we are to play Lambert as a false 9, trequartista, no 10 or whatever incumbent is popular at the time then drop him deeper and play a man infront of him with legs and a desire to get in the box. When he is the lone forward it for me is a negative when he drops back as you lose the focal point of the attack. For me Ramirez is perfect for that deeper role rickie plays ATM, you will have to change slightly as he isnt as good in the air but he will also allow you to keep playing the high pressing game that MP is trying to incorperate, RL hasnt the legs for that. IMO put someone mobile infront of Gaston and those passes will find their targets, its v difficult to play that AM role if the striker infront of you lacks legs (if your used to playing with one) as the instinctive balls through the back four will generally fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 (edited) I disagree, for a long time I have said that If we are to play Lambert as a false 9, trequartista, no 10 or whatever incumbent is popular at the time then drop him deeper and play a man infront of him with legs and a desire to get in the box. When he is the lone forward it for me is a negative when he drops back as you lose the focal point of the attack. For me Ramirez is perfect for that deeper role rickie plays ATM, you will have to change slightly as he isnt as good in the air but he will also allow you to keep playing the high pressing game that MP is trying to incorperate, RL hasnt the legs for that. IMO put someone mobile infront of Gaston and those passes will find their targets, its v difficult to play that AM role if the striker infront of you lacks legs (if your used to playing with one) as the instinctive balls through the back four will generally fail. I agree with all of that, so not sure which bit of what I posted you're actually disagreeing with ! I guess then he's not a striker and isn't to be judged on goals, the other guy would be ? Edited 8 May, 2013 by The9 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 I agree with all of that, so not sure which bit of what I posted you're actually diasgreeing with ! I guess then he's not a striker and isn't to be judged on goals, the other guy would be ? Well, thats sort of my point, who the hell is the striker !? I suppose J Rod sort of, but we seem to play a fluid front 3 with the focal point (RL) sitting deeper, for me we really need someone in the box. I like you like Rickie but find him v limited, if he gets dominated by a CB and the players around him are crowded out then he, along with our attack are snuffed out. In those situations Id much prefer to see him get further forward where he has a chance of nicking a goal from a cross etc In short, next year we need a real forward to lead the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 I disagree, for a long time I have said that If we are to play Lambert as a false 9, trequartista, no 10 or whatever incumbent is popular at the time then drop him deeper and play a man infront of him with legs and a desire to get in the box. When he is the lone forward it for me is a negative when he drops back as you lose the focal point of the attack. For me Ramirez is perfect for that deeper role rickie plays ATM, you will have to change slightly as he isnt as good in the air but he will also allow you to keep playing the high pressing game that MP is trying to incorperate, RL hasnt the legs for that. IMO put someone mobile infront of Gaston and those passes will find their targets, its v difficult to play that AM role if the striker infront of you lacks legs (if your used to playing with one) as the instinctive balls through the back four will generally fail. Agree, though Rickie has been doing this for the last few seasons. Dropping deeper and running out wide, but it all relies on others running past him. Under Adkins, Gaston, Punch, Lallana were all getting past him which enables him to use his fantastic passing ability to play them in, but if the runs aren't there then it makes us hugely blunt. J-Rod does it sometimes but doesn't do it enough IMO, he likes to drive at the defences picking the ball up from deep. Davis does it on occasions, but doesn't have any pace to get much space, and Lallana has been **** poor this season IMO. The ball just seems to get picked up by Rickie, then laid off to the midfield or pinged out wide to Clyne or Shaw who have made the run forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 Well, thats sort of my point, who the hell is the striker !? I suppose J Rod sort of, but we seem to play a fluid front 3 with the focal point (RL) sitting deeper, for me we really need someone in the box. I like you like Rickie but find him v limited, if he gets dominated by a CB and the players around him are crowded out then he, along with our attack are snuffed out. In those situations Id much prefer to see him get further forward where he has a chance of nicking a goal from a cross etc In short, next year we need a real forward to lead the line. I think the main problem for me is a system which is reliant on always pressing in the attacking third and is always weak against the quick switch or long pass because that's the only system that works with our most frequently used personnel. We need to be able to play a different way against counter attacking and long ball sides who play on our weakness, and we can't do that at the moment because a key player doesn't actually fit another system (and similarly Ramirez doesn't really suit the one we've got). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 True but I suppose with Poch coming in there has been a bit of a transition, Adkins sort of started to get us to press and work hard, in fact, he tried it against as with Reading and it sort of worked for 20 minutes. Poch has taken it to a new level though, but right now he doesnt have all of the positions filled with players that can do it. Ramirez can do it, with the right men infront and beside him. Rickie cant though, and problem being we can press effectively with him playing within the forward midfielders, nor do we really attack properly with him there as the wide men have to work harder to press and so are out of position. Itll always be susceptable to long ball yes, but those things can be worked on over time. No way of playing will ever be impenetrable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 against spurs, LAMBART did not touch ball once in opposition penalty box. OK, but what about Lambert? How did he do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 Only Southampton fans could find fault with the top scoring Englishman in the Premiership... You could do worse than listen to the Shop Steward Neville. Rickie, even when at 70%, is still better than half the players playing upfront in the Premiership today because he has a brain. And he uses it. The pass to play in Clyne on Saturday was sublime. Not just because he dropped it on a penny-piece at Clyne's foot, but because HE created the space by drifting out wide and pulling the back four apart. His hold up play is outstanding and he brings others into the game, and every time people say he can't adjust or play a different system he still does, under three managers playing three wholly different set-ups! No, he isn't going to be the guy breaking his neck to get into the box. That's not his game. That's what Rodriguez is for, that's what Lallana should be doing. And Puncheon was doing. Because our top scoring isn't scoring, doesn't mean he isn't worth his place in the team. When others aren't burying chances, you can't blame the guy who bought it, gift-wrapped it, guilt-edged it, covered it in confetti, kissed it for good luck, bubble-wrapped it, popped it in a jiffy bag and bloody well hand-delivered it...!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 8 May, 2013 Share Posted 8 May, 2013 OK, but what about Lambert? How did he do? i believe he coached villa to satisfying 2-1 victory yo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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