pap Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 It's good to disagree. I know. It's also good to be correct Look at the fragmentation of the NHS as an example. No top-down reorganisation of the NHS, Cameron said. He is a lying bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 So was Blair, to pre-empt the whatabouttery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky morris Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Nope, but where I am it was a simple choice between Labour & Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow_Saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Surely they should request asylum from the first free country they reach not cross many other countries to get to the soft touch? someone gets it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so22saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 It's good to disagree. no it isn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 someone gets it True I didn't know when you are up **** creek without a paddle there are better paddles than others....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Surely they should request asylum from the first free country they reach not cross many other countries to get to the soft touch? In what way are we a 'soft touch' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I know. It's also good to be correct Look at the fragmentation of the NHS as an example. No top-down reorganisation of the NHS, Cameron said. He is a lying bastard. Dig out the exact quotes ( in context) and I'll discuss them with you. I said last week that I wasn't gonna shave my arse this weekend but now it looks like we could be in for a warm spell of weather I might change my mind and do something different to what I thought was a good idea at the time I said it. Doesn't make me an arse shaving liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 In what way are we a 'soft touch' ? Indeed. I was involved in a campaign to keep a Sri Lankan family here. The Home Office could hardly be described as a soft touch. Lovely family. All the kids are well mannered, bright and will be an asset to this country. They succeeded in staying here. Good job too - they'd have been put in a detention centre if the appeal had failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 no it isn't On reflection, I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Indeed. I was involved in a campaign to keep a Sri Lankan family here. The Home Office could hardly be described as a soft touch. Lovely family. All the kids are well mannered, bright and will be an asset to this country. They succeeded in staying here. Good job too - they'd have been put in a detention centre if the appeal had failed. in my opinion, the immigration policies are just all wrong. England is or is getting very crowded and in a time of austerity, that is dangerous. instead of uncontrolled movement within the EU, we should have been able to have limits from the start so people like your Sri Lankan friends are not at risk. also, more movement within many of the commonwealth countries would have been more practical as we share many common traits, share a long history and even share the same head of state with some. but we are where we are and it is not an accident UKIP have rapidly risen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Dig out the exact quotes ( in context) and I'll discuss them with you. Is the Telegraph a good enough source for you T ? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/johnmcternan1/100082405/david-cameron-broke-his-word-on-the-nhs-and-is-paying-the-price/ "....David Cameron’s genuine, generous and heartfelt commitment to the NHS based on personal experience.... He pledged: We will stop the top-down reorganisations and pointless structural upheavals that have done so much damage in the NHS." "And again, to the RCN: There will be no more of those pointless re-organisations that aim for change but instead bring chaos." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 (edited) Is the Telegraph a good enough source for you T ? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/johnmcternan1/100082405/david-cameron-broke-his-word-on-the-nhs-and-is-paying-the-price/ "....David Cameron’s genuine, generous and heartfelt commitment to the NHS based on personal experience.... He pledged: We will stop the top-down reorganisations and pointless structural upheavals that have done so much damage in the NHS." "And again, to the RCN: There will be no more of those pointless re-organisations that aim for change but instead bring chaos." Cheers - so he pledged not to have a pointless reorganisations. Therefore leaving the door open for less pointless ones I assume? What is Cameron's defence when presented with this allegation? Edited 3 May, 2013 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 (edited) don,t think its a big deal hardly anyone voted in the council elections has most people see them has a waste of time apart from the die hards,good news for labour is that ukip, could split the consertive party vote allowing a labour party win the next election by default just likein the 1980s when the tories won elections because of a split vote on the left. pity has i thought cameron has done a good job trying to bring the party back to the centre ground and modernise the party after having that nasty party tag for the 80s and 90s.. Edited 3 May, 2013 by solentstars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so22saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 On reflection, I agree I don't (I've wasted 2 of 3 posts on this - we'd better not sign Messi today) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Likewise, felt guilty for not spoiling my ballot instead, but not so easy to take a reasonably pointless political stance when you have to tuck the kids in. Problem I have is I would never vote Tory or Labour, and most certainly could never consider ever voting for a nasty party like UKIP. I refuse to vote Lib Dem until Clegg is replaced. Simply no sensible choice at the moment. Wish the Green party had a candidate in my area. Sent from my Lumia 800 using Board Express I last voted in the 2011 local elections, but since then i've become very apathetic towards mainstream politicians. There's only a few out there that I actually respect and feel could be good Prime Ministers (Andy Burnham for example and possibly even Vince Cable), but that's outweighed by the sheer number of f*ckwits like May, Osborne, Miliband, Clegg, Huhne (formerly) and Cameron. Tories - Poor economic policy, weak leaders and pandering to far-right lunatics. If Ken Clarke was leader then at least I would find them more tolerable. Labour - Even weaker than the Tories, no clue about their economic policy and Miliband is so uninspiring. They need to give him the chop before the next election. Lib Dem - If they want to ever win any votes again then Clegg needs to leave. Give the top job to Cable or someone else who's actually popular with the party's core. UKIP - Absolute nutters. Very clever as to what information they use to propagate their bullsh!t about the EU but they're not exactly hard-hitters so get shown up easily. BNP - Not much recent publicity, but that doesn't change them being the vile racist scumbags that they are. Would've thought Nicko would have something to say about Bulgarians! Greens - Probably the party I would be most likely to vote for at the moment, but they don't have any strong leaders and I don't agree wholeheartedly with their environmental policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Why are UKiP "absolute nutters" What makes them insane? Are they going to deport people on mass, give everyone £1m, What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 It's good to disagree. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Why are UKiP "absolute nutters" What makes them insane? Are they going to deport people on mass, give everyone £1m, What? You ever sat down and spoken to one of their avid supporters? Raving bloody lunatics. Obviously that doesn't apply to all of their voters - a lot of people have only recently started supporting them - but their core voters are very often....interesting individuals. PS: It's "en masse". European, innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 You could say that about a supporter of any main party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecuk268 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I didn't vote at all as there were no elections in Southampton. It'll be interesting to see what they actually do now they've got some councilors. It's easy to sit on the sidelines sniping away at other parties but they now have to come out and state their policies on all sorts of issues as well as their usual rants about Europe and foreigners. Power brings all sorts of problems as the Lib Dems have discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I think we need a choice on Europe, but I'm a little concerned about the transition of UKIP from a protest party to a functioning one. I like Farage. He's a good orator, and some of his speeches have been impressive. Someone needs to ask questions about the accounts of the EU and the suspension of democracy in places like Italy and Greece. That said, I do worry that a good chunk of the UKIP vote is about nationalism and/or racism. I follow a couple of UKIP supporters on Twitter, and they can be fairly rabid at times. Independence from Europe is something that needs to be debated and decided by the British people, but I do worry that we're in the nascent stages of a new wave of potentially dangerous xenophobia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Until we get the in/out vote ok Europe UKIP will grow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 (edited) You ever sat down and spoken to one of their avid supporters? Raving bloody lunatics. Obviously that doesn't apply to all of their voters - a lot of people have only recently started supporting them - but their core voters are very often....interesting individuals. PS: It's "en masse". European, innit. Well actually you do not have to be a nutter to believe in a small state, free market economics with a healthy scepticism for the European project. After all what would have happened if we had joined the Euro. What I might find a little unpalatable is the reason why many UKIP supporters are opposed to Europe. I also think that controlled immigration is a good thing because people prepared to emigrate have a lot of drive and that is good for your economy. All core supporters of political parties are generally nutters Edited 3 May, 2013 by Sergei Gotsmanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 You could say that about a supporter of any main party True, but the UKIP hardcore are a particularly special breed of politics fan. Go along to a meeting or something and ask one of them just exactly what is the issue with Europe. Be prepared to sit back and listen to 25 minutes of fast-paced, short-breathed ranting about "BLOODY EUROCRATS", "BRUSSELS IS TRYING TO RULE BRITANNIA" and all that other sh!t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 True, but the UKIP hardcore are a particularly special breed of politics fan. Go along to a meeting or something and ask one of them just exactly what is the issue with Europe. Be prepared to sit back and listen to 25 minutes of fast-paced, short-breathed ranting about "BLOODY EUROCRATS", "BRUSSELS IS TRYING TO RULE BRITANNIA" and all that other sh!t. You could say exactly the same thing about a due hard labour supporter Or a life long liberal No difference, just that you seem more tolerant of those type but they are equally odd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 You could say exactly the same thing about a due hard labour supporter Or a life long liberal No difference, just that you seem more tolerant of those type but they are equally odd Batman I think your missing boy wonder robin.love the trolling by the way:) Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 You could say exactly the same thing about a due hard labour supporter Or a life long liberal No difference, just that you seem more tolerant of those type but they are equally odd Not really, you'd expect die-hard Tories, Labour or Lib Dems to have a range of views on different issues. UKIP are obsessed with the EU and to a lesser extent immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I didn't vote at all as there were no elections in Southampton. It'll be interesting to see what they actually do now they've got some councilors. It's easy to sit on the sidelines sniping away at other parties but they now have to come out and state their policies on all sorts of issues as well as their usual rants about Europe and foreigners. Power brings all sorts of problems as the Lib Dems have discovered. I'm not sure the same is true for local government, as people tend to end up blaming national government for most things. Also, UKIP don't actually control any councils (as of yet), so they can still effectively snipe from the sidelines and get more publicity. Of course, you could be right though if some of the candidates elected were the 'unvetted', or if they start shouting about their desire to abolish the progressive tax system and decimate public services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I'd like to know, what all those who look down their noses at UKIP, propose the people of Britain should do when they are being served so BADLY by the 3 main parties. They have made a Grade "A" spectacular f**king mess of the UK over the past 20 years or so. Handing more power to the EU, a glorified unelected quango, and ringfencing budgets like international aid, are just plain bizarre considering what is going on in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I would have if i had the chance, weren't standing where I am. But great to see 10 gains in Hampshire, UKIP's best area after Lincolnshire. I don't agree with every UKIP policy, but we should be able to determine wether we are to become part of a federal European superstate where an unelected commision decides our country's policy, or wether we want to be a free and independant nation. UKIP on immigration is also common sense, we're an overcrowded island with few jobs and a million young out of work- therefore we should have a policy such as the US, Canada, Auss,Nz etc..only UKIP stands for this and has done for years. The party also stands for smaller governement. Fact is the Tories have taken their core vote for guaranteed whilst trying to appeal to the liberal left- and it's come back to bite them in the arse. they tried to smear..as did Labour, but it didn't work! Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Fact is the Tories have taken their core vote for guaranteed whilst trying to appeal to the liberal left- and it's come back to bite them in the arse. This. Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horley CTFC Saint Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I was going to vote UKIP but when I found out they weren't giving out free black shirts I came over all Lib Dem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 No elections in Southampton city so I couldn't vote. Moving to Hedge End in July though so was glad to see the Botley and Hedge End seat remains Lib Dem and saddened that 3 of the 7 Eastleigh district seats are now UKIP. I don't really understand why people flip-flop between parties. For me, the left wing (or possibly centrist-left) values are so deeply ingrained that I could never support a right wing party with my vote. I'm not a fan of the Lib Dems nor how they've conducted themselves, but what they stand for is more closely aligned to me than the other candidates so I'm happy enough. Allegedly UKIP were the so-called protest vote, but doesn't that make it rather moronic to vote for them if they're diametrically opposed to your beliefs? Similarly this applies when judging a vote on the charisma of the person standing. So if they've got a nice smile you're prepared to overlook their proposals? Surely it's better to vote for what you believe and have the convictions to back it up. Several people I've spoken to on this have merely picked up soundbites, often originally reported with little basis in reality, and lacked the ability to articulate beyond this poorly sourced trash. They didn't have opinions of their own nor the ability to form a cohesive argument, it was all relayed 'information'. To UKIP's credit they've pounced upon an opportunity and found their niche, I just find it scary that there's such a dark undercurrent for them to tap into in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Think its a been a bit overblown. UKIP have got a grand total of 74 council seats out of 20,000 in total - fewer than the greens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Think its a been a bit overblown. UKIP have got a grand total of 74 council seats out of 20,000 in total - fewer than the greens. but what it will do, force the Tories to 'turn to the right' so they can claim their lost support back (or try) which is only good news for the rest of the country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Handing more power to the EU, a glorified unelected quango..... What do they do in Austria ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Think its a been a bit overblown. UKIP have got a grand total of 74 council seats out of 20,000 in total - fewer than the greens. A quarter of the vote in an election is not overblown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 A quarter of the vote in an election is not overblown. But in FPTP it results in bugger all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Think its a been a bit overblown. UKIP have got a grand total of 74 council seats out of 20,000 in total - fewer than the greens. The number of seats is low, I agree. However, getting 25% of the vote in South Shields is no mean feat. Farage was on R4's Today this morning talking about Canada's Reform Party, which had no federal seats in 1987, yet had 60 by the time 1997 came around. Given that the balance of power is decided in 150 or so marginals, if UKIP ever managed anything like that it could mean the end of our usual majority governments. The other thing to consider with UKIP is their universal appeal. Though they are likeliest to snaffle votes from the Tories, there are also traditional Labour voters with concerns, Gillian Duffy being the most celebrated example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Think its a been a bit overblown. UKIP have got a grand total of 74 council seats out of 20,000 in total - fewer than the greens. Agree its just a pipe dream they will ever run the country but at least it stops the racist right voting for the BNP type partys .no one expects them to do anything in the next general election. .council elections are Micky mouse has hardly no one turns out for them except the committed has they have no real power. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 The number of seats is low, I agree. However, getting 25% of the vote in South Shields is no mean feat. Farage was on R4's Today this morning talking about Canada's Reform Party, which had no federal seats in 1987, yet had 60 by the time 1997 came around. Given that the balance of power is decided in 150 or so marginals, if UKIP ever managed anything like that it could mean the end of our usual majority governments. The other thing to consider with UKIP is their universal appeal. Though they are likeliest to snaffle votes from the Tories, there are also traditional Labour voters with concerns, Gillian Duffy being the most celebrated example. I don't think that will happen simply because unlike may European countries the UK electorate don't like coalition governments. As a nation we aren't that sophisticated, we like someone to be in control so its clear who to blame. Yes 25% is a big number even for a protest vote (in the seats where they fielded a candidate not overall btw) but its in the context of a mid term election where all the major parties are uniquely unpopular at the same time. That support will disappear like morning mist once people actually start to ask what they stand for rather than what they stand against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 But in FPTP it results in bugger all. Isn't that the point? People can make a protest vote knowing that the candidate won't get elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Isn't that the point? People can make a protest vote knowing that the candidate won't get elected. So why all the media hype ? ( Information : the following statement is opinion, you are free to disagree if you wish ) The point with UKIP is that they are a single issue party that benefits from having, probably, the most charismatic and media savvy leader of any UK political party - somebody who has found a way to tug at the latent xenophobia of a proportion of the electorate, predominantly on the right. Without Farage they are nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 UKIP pick up on the disconnect that exists between us, the electorate and them, the political classes, which the stand outside of. They speak in simple terms that people understand and explain why they stand for what they do. People like that and people, in huge numbers, from all spectrums, agree with them. Hell, even I think they are spot on with some arguments. The more people disconnect with the main 3 the better UKIP & The Greens will do across all elections. I can see no reason why, with targeted priorities, UKIP cannot win seats in Westminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 So why all the media hype ? ( Information : the following statement is opinion, you are free to disagree if you wish ) The point with UKIP is that they are a single issue party that benefits from having, probably, the most charismatic and media savvy leader of any UK political party - somebody who has found a way to tug at the latent xenophobia of a proportion of the electorate, predominantly on the right. Without Farage they are nothing. Agree very similar to Moseley in the 1930s as the patriotic party .not saying that farage is a racist but he knows what buttons to press to some peoples Makeup. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 So why all the media hype ? ( Information : the following statement is opinion, you are free to disagree if you wish ) The point with UKIP is that they are a single issue party that benefits from having, probably, the most charismatic and media savvy leader of any UK political party - somebody who has found a way to tug at the latent xenophobia of a proportion of the electorate, predominantly on the right. Without Farage they are nothing. but they do have farage and he is easily the best speaker of all the leaders. their support is growing at a rapid rate. They speak at the average person in the UK and speak so much sense you ask farage a question, he will give you an answer. You may not like the answer but he will give you one just dismissing them as racists is particularly arrogant and stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 They speak at the average person in the UK and speak so much sense Whether or not they speak at the average person, I sincerely hope they never speak for us. I can't abide their beliefs on Europe, immigration, law, health, education, economics/tax, defence, energy/climate change, social issues... Does that cover it? I find their manifesto abhorrent. As much as politicians in this country have made a) a hash of things and b) by and large become rather disconnected, the pantomime villain portrayal has gone too far if it allows wretches like Farage to get a foothold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 I'd like to know, what all those who look down their noses at UKIP, propose the people of Britain should do when they are being served so BADLY by the 3 main parties. That's no reason to embrace a dangerous alternative Fact is the Tories have taken their core vote for guaranteed whilst trying to appeal to the liberal left- and it's come back to bite them in the arse. I agree on the first point but if there's one thing they didn't do, it was appeal to the left. Where have you got that from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 3 May, 2013 Share Posted 3 May, 2013 Put good packaging on an awful product and watch the suckers buy it on mass. Farage should think about getting a book about his struggle published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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