I'm a believer...are you?

[Sour Mash]

Very outside possibility of top 6 if we buy three or four very good players and have luck on our side, particularly with injuries to key players. Top 4 - no chance.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

we have been lucky with Shaw. No-one could know how he would react to playing regularly in the Premier League. We tried to buy another left back during pre-season.

 

It clearly wasn't seen as a top priority though.

 

We went for someone, who tried to mess us around, so we pulled out. Clearly if it was thought Luke Shaw was no where near ready, the club would have gone for someone else.

 

At what point is anything not luck then? Are we 'lucky' Morgan & Rickie have played well?

 

Are Utd lucky RVP has scored lots of goals? Are Swansea lucky Michu has had a good season? Were Liverpool lucky Suarez was a good player?

 

Is there no such thing as judgement in football? Or are all scouts and coaches, where judging players talents is a large part of their job, actually just exceptionally lucky people?

[trousers]

we have been lucky with Shaw

 

[Leicestersaint]

I hope we do really well under the new man and i also hope he learns to speak English quite soon.

[Sour Mash]

It clearly wasn't seen as a top priority though.

 

We went for someone, who tried to mess us around, so we pulled out. Clearly if it was thought Luke Shaw was no where near ready, the club would have gone for someone else.

 

At what point is anything not luck then? Are we 'lucky' Morgan & Rickie have played well?

 

Are Utd lucky RVP has scored lots of goals? Are Swansea lucky Michu has had a good season? Were Liverpool lucky Suarez was a good player?

 

Is there no such thing as judgement in football? Or are all scouts and coaches, where judging players talents is a large part of their job, actually just exceptionally lucky people?

Yeah we were going to spend £3m, plus whatever on the wages on a new left back just for the laughs. The difference to Man Utd buying and playing Van Persie is they knew he could paly very well and score goals in the Prem, it was a fact. We did not know that about Shaw. If we'd known he was going to be as good as he's been, there is no way we would have bid for Buttner, that's a fact.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Yeah we were going to spend £3m, plus whatever on the wages on a new left back just for the laughs. The difference to Man Utd buying and playing Van Persie is they knew he could paly very well and score goals in the Prem, it was a fact. We did not know that about Shaw. If we'd known he was going to be as good as he's been, there is no way we would have bid for Buttner, that's a fact.

 

So then why didn't we either pony up the extra dough, or go for someone else after the deal fell through?

 

Maybe, the guy that was promoted to the first team at the end of last season, was deemed good enough for the first team.

[BlakeySFC]

At the moment yes, but it will come down to whether he keeps us up or not before I will say he's a definite success or not.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Very outside possibility of top 6 if we buy three or four very good players and have luck on our side, particularly with injuries to key players. Top 4 - no chance.

 

I'd probably echo this.

 

Personally think it's unlikely, but after the past few years, I wouldn't say it's unachievable.

[timayes]

So in the same way we have been 'lucky' Shaw has turned out alright, we have also been unlucky that Gazza was not as good as was hoped, unlucky that Boruc had his mid-season 'issue', unlucky that Jose did his ankle against Chelsea, it goes on. Football is football, we, and every other team are about as lucky as they are unlucky, with results, with decisions and believe it or not with players, either coming through the ranks or bought.

Is it even FACT that we did bid on Buttner?

[Sour Mash]

So then why didn't we either pony up the extra dough, or go for someone else after the deal fell through?

 

Maybe, the guy that was promoted to the first team at the end of last season, was deemed good enough for the first team.

We couldn't source anyone we felt was good enough for the right price. If we knew Shaw was going to be good enough for a season in the Prem, there is no-way the club would have came so close to shelling out that much on a LB. The issue with Buttner wasn't purely money, but attitude. Fox started the season ahead of Shaw, so that is further proof that we weren't completely sure what we'd be getting from him. Those are the facts I'm afraid. We've been lucky he's taken to playing in the Prem so well and hasn't sustained too many lengthy injuries, as we'd have struggled otherwise.

[Window Cleaner]

I'd probably echo this.

 

Personally think it's unlikely, but after the past few years, I wouldn't say it's unachievable.

 

of course it isn't unachievable, wouldn't the 27 points that we've lost from winning positions so far this season not put us in the top 4 today? bearing in mind that it would not only add points to our total but take points away from others. Obviously it's going to happen to all from time to time but if we'd only dropped say 15 from winning positions we'd be knocking on the door of the top 4 today. So Norwich,Swansea,Arsenal,Wigan and perhaps a cheeky Utd or City wins instead of losses or draws and it's all we need......in theory. :rolleyes:

[Glasgow_Saint]

Who from the Man C team would get in our side now?

[Window Cleaner]

Who from the Man C team would get in our side now?

 

Kompany,Touré Aguero at least,probably a few others cos we're a bit chauvinistic.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

We couldn't source anyone we felt was good enough for the right price. If we knew Shaw was going to be good enough for a season in the Prem, there is no-way the club would have came so close to shelling out that much on a LB. The issue with Buttner wasn't purely money, but attitude. Fox started the season ahead of Shaw, so that is further proof that we weren't completely sure what we'd be getting from him. Those are the facts I'm afraid. We've been lucky he's taken to playing in the Prem so well and hasn't sustained too many lengthy injuries, as we'd have struggled otherwise.

 

If we had £12m to spend on players like Gaston, we certainly could have gone above the £3m for Buttner, if it was deemed a priority.

 

It wasn't, so we didn't.

[Window Cleaner]

If we had £12m to spend on players like Gaston, we certainly could have gone above the £3m for Buttner, if it was deemed a priority.

 

It wasn't, so we didn't.

 

 

Buttner was a complex affair apparently, Nicola is a bit particular over to whom he gives money.

[Sour Mash]

So in the same way we have been 'lucky' Shaw has turned out alright, we have also been unlucky that Gazza was not as good as was hoped, unlucky that Boruc had his mid-season 'issue', unlucky that Jose did his ankle against Chelsea, it goes on. Football is football, we, and every other team are about as lucky as they are unlucky, with results, with decisions and believe it or not with players, either coming through the ranks or bought.

Is it even FACT that we did bid on Buttner?

Yes, you do get some good and bad luck throughout a season, I'm not suggesting otherwise.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Buttner was a complex affair apparently, Nicola is a bit particular over to whom he gives money.

 

Yep, I don't dispute that, rightly so in my opinion. I can't imagine he'd be keen to go through another Puncheon saga in a hurry, even if it did work out alright in the eventually.

 

What I meant was, there was clearly money there to be spent, if Buttner was deemed an unsuitable fit, character wise, then we could have paid more than £3m for a LB if it was deemed such a priority.

[Sour Mash]

If we had £12m to spend on players like Gaston, we certainly could have gone above the £3m for Buttner, if it was deemed a priority.

 

It wasn't, so we didn't.

As I said in my above post, Buttner wasn't about extra money as such, more the way a third party made a play for additional monies at the last minute. But if you think we were going to buy a left back for £3m, plus decent wages, when we believed we had a left-back that was already comfortably good enough for the role you've got it wrong I'm afraid.

[tajjuk]

We were lucky that Shaw a 17 year old was ready to be a premier league regular at such a tender age and it happened to be in a position we were weak.

 

But as timayes said we were unlucky in other area, like Cork's injury at the start or idiots barracking Boruc in the Spurs game. Reckon we would have a fair few more points on the board if that hadn't have happened.

[Miltonroader07]

As long as Cortese is in charge of the club, I believe we will progress.

 

This is the Key methinks

[KelvinsRightGlove]

As I said in my above post, Buttner wasn't about extra money as such, more the way a third party made a play for additional monies at the last minute. But if you think we were going to buy a left back for £3m, plus decent wages, when we believed we had a left-back that was already comfortably good enough for the role you've got it wrong I'm afraid.

 

Buttner isn't the only left back in the world.

 

If we were that desperate for a new one, we could have just as easily gone after another, and spent more than £3m on them. If we really wanted.

 

We clearly didn't, so we didn't.

[This Charming Man]

We were lucky that Shaw a 17 year old was ready to be a premier league regular at such a tender age and it happened to be in a position we were weak.

 

But as timayes said we were unlucky in other area, like Cork's injury at the start or idiots barracking Boruc in the Spurs game. Reckon we would have a fair few more points on the board if that hadn't have happened.

 

We may have had even more if the GK position was actually dealt with in the summer.

[This Charming Man]

Buttner isn't the only left back in the world.

 

If we were that desperate for a new one, we could have just as easily gone after another, and spent more than £3m on them. If we really wanted.

 

We clearly didn't, so we didn't.

 

Or maybe we weren't able to identify a suitable target or other players turned us down and we just had to make do with what we had? None of us know.

 

Please stop talking as if you were privy to our private transfer dealings, you sound daft.

[tajjuk]

We may have had even more if the GK position was actually dealt with in the summer.

 

Aside from Butland I don't remember links to any keeper in the summer, certainly not one to replace Davis. I think that Adkins and everyone else thought that Davis who had been excellent in the championship and very reliable would be a good enough short term option as a Goalkeeper. After the first 5 ot 6 games it became apparent that he clearly wasn't up to it.

 

it's all good in hindsight but when doing summer transfer target priorities I think it's fair enough that GK wasn't one when you had a very exerienced keeper who had been one of the best in the championship the season before.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Or maybe we weren't able to identify a suitable target or other players turned us down and we just had to make do with what we had? None of us know.

 

Please stop talking as if you were privy to our private transfer dealings, you sound daft.

 

So hang on, me saying if we were desperate for one, we would have gone for/got one is acting like I'm privy to dealings & daft.

 

You and Sour Mash saying we were unable to isn't?

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Aside from Butland I don't remember links to any keeper in the summer, certainly not one to replace Davis. I think that Adkins and everyone else thought that Davis who had been excellent in the championship and very reliable would be a good enough short term option as a Goalkeeper. After the first 5 ot 6 games it became apparent that he clearly wasn't up to it.

 

it's all good in hindsight but when doing summer transfer target priorities I think it's fair enough that GK wasn't one when you had a very exerienced keeper who had been one of the best in the championship the season before.

 

Wasn't Davis in the Championship team of the year last season?

[This Charming Man]

Aside from Butland I don't remember links to any keeper in the summer, certainly not one to replace Davis. I think that Adkins and everyone else thought that Davis who had been excellent in the championship and very reliable would be a good enough short term option as a Goalkeeper. After the first 5 ot 6 games it became apparent that he clearly wasn't up to it.

 

it's all good in hindsight but when doing summer transfer target priorities I think it's fair enough that GK wasn't one when you had a very exerienced keeper who had been one of the best in the championship the season before.

 

Given his previous outing in the Premiership, I wasn't that convinced. He did well in the Championship, there is no denying that but I thought he would struggle to make the step-up and that should've been picked up by the coaching staff and addressed pre-season, not rummaging around whatever freebies were floating around Europe a few weeks into the season.

[This Charming Man]

So hang on, me saying if we were desperate for one, we would have gone for/got one is acting like I'm privy to dealings & daft.

 

You and Sour Mash saying we were unable to isn't?

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

You said "we clearly didn't" want another left back. I just presume you'd spoken to Les and Nicola to know that.

 

Can you please highlight the part where I say with conviction that we were unable to sign a LB? Please note I said maybe and merely posed another angle to the debate, whilst also adding that nobody knows.

Edited 12 April, 2013 by This Charming Man

[Sour Mash]

Buttner isn't the only left back in the world.

 

If we were that desperate for a new one, we could have just as easily gone after another, and spent more than £3m on them. If we really wanted.

 

We clearly didn't, so we didn't.

So the facts are you think we were going to spend £3m on a left back, plus decent wages when we didn't need to and were already very confident that we had a perfectly adequate left back. What a waste of mney that would have been. I've been critical of our transfer dealings in the past, but I don't think it's that f****d up, pity you think we're such a mess.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So the facts are you think we were going to spend £3m on a left back, plus decent wages when we didn't need to and were already very confident that we had a perfectly adequate left back. What a waste of mney that would have been. I've been critical of our transfer dealings in the past, but I don't think it's that f****d up, pity you think we're such a mess.

 

Where did I say we were a mess?

 

All I have said, is that I think if we were so desperate for a LB, we would have tried harder to get one in. If it was a top priority, we could have spent more.

 

As This Charming Man, has put in such charming terms, we don't know the exact thinking. Maybe, Fox was going to be moved on if Buttner did come in? It's a stated ambition of the club to have a pathway for youngsters to come through, after all. Maybe they knew Shaw would be ready sooner, rather than later. How do you and TCM know for sure that wasn't the case?

 

If it is so stupid of me to think the club thought Shaw was going to be good enough to play this season, why did they promote him to the first team squad at the end of last season?

[This Charming Man]

If it is so stupid of me to think the club thought Shaw was going to be good enough to play this season, why did they promote him to the first team squad at the end of last season?

 

Because you have to have a certain quota of young, homegrown players in your squad. Why do you think Man City signed garbage like Rodwell and the average Sinclair? It certainly wasn't to boost their title hopes.

[Sour Mash]

Where did I say we were a mess?

 

All I have said, is that I think if we were so desperate for a LB, we would have tried harder to get one in. If it was a top priority, we could have spent more.

 

As This Charming Man, has put in such charming terms, we don't know the exact thinking. Maybe, Fox was going to be moved on if Buttner did come in? It's a stated ambition of the club to have a pathway for youngsters to come through, after all. Maybe they knew Shaw would be ready sooner, rather than later. How do you and TCM know for sure that wasn't the case?

 

If it is so stupid of me to think the club thought Shaw was going to be good enough to play this season, why did they promote him to the first team squad at the end of last season?

They also promoted Callum Chambers, Jack Stephens and JWP at the start of the year, how many starts have they had between them? You think we would have spent £3m+ when we were already happy with what we had in that position, I don't.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Because you have to have a certain quota of young, homegrown players in your squad. Why do you think Man City signed garbage like Rodwell and the average Sinclair? It certainly wasn't to boost their title hopes.

 

The 'Homegrown' quota to the PL doesn't have age restrictions.

 

It's 8 players of any age that spent 3 years between 18 and 21. Therefore Rickie, Kelvin, Clyne, Fox, Morgan (they can also be foreign), Cork, Chaplow, Puncheon & Lallana meant we would have met that quota without Shaw or JWP.

 

City do that for the CL.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

They also promoted Callum Chambers, Jack Stephens and JWP at the start of the year, how many starts have they had between them? You think we would have spent £3m+ when we were already happy with what we had in that position, I don't.

 

JWP has made a fair few appearances, in one of our stronger positions.

 

Shaw has been highly rated by the club for some time. I don't see why it is such a surprise that he is doing well. It's not unheard of for young players to take to the league well.

 

If you disagree, fair enough, that's your opinion. I just don't really subscribe to the idea that having a good player, putting them in the squad, and then subsequently said good player being good is lucky.

 

Either way, it's worked out well, Shaw is going to be class. Lucky or not. So what's the problem.

[pangy]

I Believe that other the next 5-6 years with the right additions and the ability to keep our better players we can challenge top 6,top 4 next season is a massive belly laugh from me,we are more likely to be top 4 in the championship than top 4 Prem as we are not safe yet

 

People are getting far to carried away with this,we are a million miles away from top 6

[Dalek2003]

We may have had even more if the GK position was actually dealt with in the summer.

 

That is my point. At the start of the season we had well known weaknesses that cost us dear and should have been sorted in the long summer break ! Most people who regularly visit this board said so at the time.

We got through it, but it was a close call and it might be wise to avoid taking such a chance again.

As we approach safety, quite a few posters have changed their tune or are being wise after the event.

[saints_is_the_south]

Steady progression is the way forward. As has already been said, 11th - 14th this season would be a very good achievement, 10th would be absolutely brilliant.

 

Next season my aim would be to replicate what Swansea have done this season, top 8/9 and a domestic cup run (and win, hopefully!). Then Europe after that.

[View From The Top]

I believe that we could, genuinely, win a cup & that'll do me nicely.

[dubai_phil]

It's Friday.

 

It's Karaoke Night.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XfuBREMXxts

 

Until Real need to replace Jose

[Saint Charlie]

IMO talk of Champions League is slightly OTT when we have game to win tomorrow to all but secure Premier League football next year.

[Dig Dig]

^ This

[Saint Garrett]

Agree, we're certainly on the up and some of our players will have massive futures, however it will be a gradual process and a tough one IMO. It's easier to from 20th to 12th in the league, but a lot more difficult to get from 12th to 4th.

[Ohio Saint]

As a Saints fan, worry and the jitters is genetic. However, in my lifetime (I'm 56) I have NEVER seen a situation where Saints have so much to look forward to, so much promise, or so much vision.

 

Yeah, in MP I trust, in NC I trust. It's a new feeling for me as a Saints fan, so I expect myself to teeter dangerously over the edge of the bandwagon from time to time, but I won't fall off!

[simo]

And then I saw you face..............

[Big Ron fan]

Last 12 games under Adkins (I.e. from when Shaw and Cork started playing)...18 points, ave. 1.5 per game. Potch 15 points from 10 games, ave. 1.5 per game.

[Ohio Saint]

Last 12 games under Adkins (I.e. from when Shaw and Cork started playing)...18 points, ave. 1.5 per game. Potch 15 points from 10 games, ave. 1.5 per game.

 

I see what you are doing, but this thread was not about a comparison of managers, it's about the future.

[Dr Who?]

Said it before, win tomorrow and I think we will finish 9th, lose and we could be looking over our shoulder at the end of next weekend. First thing first, win tomorrow, then we can look forward and dream about Europe.

[Dr Who?]

Last 12 games under Adkins (I.e. from when Shaw and Cork started playing)...18 points, ave. 1.5 per game. Potch 15 points from 10 games, ave. 1.5 per game.

 

I can say that I think by the end of the season potch will have a better points to game ratio.

[ART]

I'm afraid I'm not able to believe in the long team at this time. When I see it confirmed that Adam Lallana remains as skipper and will be leading the team I can't believe. He's a headless chicken where leadership is concerned and adds so much more to the team, to our game, without the responsibility. To date, I see Pochettino as a puppet to Cortese and his stooge Reed. If we appointed someone with Champions League experience as adviser to Cortese and the board my opinion may change.

 

Pochettino will be on sa 3 month trial period. The summer management merry go round in Spain could see Pochettino jumping ship and leaving us high and dry.

[scotty]

I'm afraid I'm not able to believe in the long team at this time. When I see it confirmed that Adam Lallana remains as skipper and will be leading the team I can't believe. He's a headless chicken where leadership is concerned and adds so much more to the team, to our game, without the responsibility. To date, I see Pochettino as a puppet to Cortese and his stooge Reed. If we appointed someone with Champions League experience as adviser to Cortese and the board my opinion may change.

 

Pochettino will be on sa 3 month trial period. The summer management merry go round in Spain could see Pochettino jumping ship and leaving us high and dry.

 

Blimey.