Maggie Thatcher has died

[pap]

You can have empathy with the situation of the Irish, some awful things have happened to the Irish people.

 

But to kill, or condone the killing of innocent people, for things the politicians/leaders from the times of their parents/grandparents is evil.

 

If the black community rose up now, in reaction to slavery, and enslaved the white community, would that be right? Or would that e evil?

 

Again, Kelv - you really don't know what you're talking about.

 

Adam's actions were of course, partially motivated by history - but his main motivation would have been the ongoing discrimination faced by the Catholic community at the time. No access to housing or jobs. People living in caravans with no access to utilities.

 

There was in fact, a burgeoning civil rights movement in NI in the mid to late 1960s. Might have actually worked, but then Bloody Sunday happened.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Amen. The conditions Catholics had to live under in a part of the UK run by a sectarian protestant NI government were abhorrent and led directly to the civil rights movement. British troops were welcomed by the Catholics as independent guarantors of fairness - until the Uk political leadership decided that the army should only work in support of the hated civilian administration and RUC in NI.

 

Lets not be under any illusions, you can hate the actions the IRA carried out - but the responsibility for the unjust social conditions which created the IRA in the first place lay squarely with British policy in Ireland

 

And no-one is saying that it was unjust, far from it, but the IRA's response was, frankly, evil.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

This thread isn't about me, I regret even posting this.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by KelvinsRightGlove

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Right, I only authored a 10,00 word document on the IRA, their history, conflicts and actions. Which was published in an academic journal. But yeah, I'm totally clueless.

 

Let me guess, I'm supporting Bloody Sunday now? Both sides in the Irish 'conflict', struggles whatever you want to call them have done wrong. I said that in the post you have quoted, or have you decided to pick that cherry and throw it away.

 

You really need to grow up, and stop dismissing everything you don't like as ill-informed. It's pathetic. What makes you so much more qualified than me?

 

He just is bra', he said so.

[buctootim]

And no-one is saying that it was unjust, far from it, but the IRA's response was, frankly, evil.

 

Was it? Which is more evil - maintaining a system by which nearly half the population are denied access by the NI government to the employment, education and housing enjoyed by the other half or rebelling against that when peaceful protest had been tried but shot down?

 

Where do you stand on the Syrian uprising? or is that "aaah but thats different coz its not Britain and they're foreign?"

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

New one for you Pap:

 

Idi Amin - Genocidal maniac responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Ugandan's and the relocation of thousands of others, or funny fat black man who was teased as a child?

 

[shurlock]

And yeah, I would say Galloway is certainly verging on evil.

 

Possibly slightly harsh on Red Ken, but he is a massive tw4t.

 

Is Nelson Mandela a terrorist?

[Tokyo-Saint]

Is Nelson Mandela a terrorist?

 

He was but I believe he didn't re-offend after a spell in prison.

[badgerx16]

"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope."

 

I make that 0 / 4 on the retrospective scorecard.

[hutch]

One man's prison is another man's sub-tropical island

[oldskoolsi]

Stan Collymore's take. Apologies if it has already been posted.

 

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rjllua

[LGTL]

Forget mad Thatcher, she died years ago, the Tories just announced it yesterday to hide the changes in disability benefit.

 

What this thread has shown is the complete ignorance of so many towards the troubles in Ireland. I do wish it would be taught a bit more in our schools as it is bloody fascinating when you get beyond all the nonsense.

[badgerx16]

Stan Collymore's take. Apologies if it has already been posted.

 

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rjllua

 

That improves my opinion of him.

[Joensuu]

RIP. I won't celebrate anyones death.

 

IMO Thatcher demonstrated a remarkable ability to pick the wrong side of an argument and ruthlessly pursue it. She did an excellent job of breaking the unions, who were running rampant in the 70s, strangling their own progressions. Aside from that I can't think of another redeeming quality. Awful politician, with socially backward and corrosive views. But still, RIP Baroness T, I won't miss you, but more will I drink or party at your passing.

[pap]

Right, I only authored a 10,00 word document on the IRA, their history, conflicts and actions. Which was published in an academic journal. But yeah, I'm totally clueless.

 

Let me guess, I'm supporting Bloody Sunday now? Both sides in the Irish 'conflict', struggles whatever you want to call them have done wrong. I said that in the post you have quoted, or have you decided to pick that cherry and throw it away.

 

You really need to grow up, and stop dismissing everything you don't like as ill-informed. It's pathetic. What makes you so much more qualified than me?

 

So did your 10,00 (?) document skip over the massive discrimination of the 1960s?

 

You asserted that Adams did what he did for historical reasons. That's not the case at all. To say so seems clueless to me.

 

In terms of what makes me more qualified than you? I lived in NI for 3 years. My landlady was an SDLP councillor who was active in the NI civil rights movement in the 1960s to the situation today. I've had numerous chats with her and several other people from both sides of the community. Ok, it's not a GCSE or nowt. Some might think it counts for something.

[LGTL]

.,,

[St Jim]

She wasn't a great leader - just stubborn as a mule. Sure, she modernised the country in many ways, but that was a bi-product of her pathological hatred of the unions. She destroyed many of our manufacturing industries, divided our country North - South, and stated, quite openly, that the City would keep us. Her one good policy was selling council houses. A cute move - people with mortgages don't go on strike. I, for one, won't mourn her passing, as she, no doubt, wouldn't have mourned mine. She ruined millions of lives in the early-mid 80's. Thankfully, she didn't ruin mine as I was lucky enough to live in the South. Still, she was a frail old lady at the end of the day, and I hope that the end came peacefully for her. Airbrushing history is a very dangerous thing.

 

 

This is the biggest myth of the Thatcher era. Statistically manufacturing declined quicker in the 11 years before and the 11 years after her tenure than it did during the 11 years of her tenure, but no matter how many reputable papers report on it, with the public it's in one ear out the other.

[Sour Mash]

He was but I believe he didn't re-offend after a spell in prison.

An excellent example that prison does indeed work.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So did your 10,00 (?) document skip over the massive discrimination of the 1960s?

 

You asserted that Adams did what he did for historical reasons. That's not the case at all. To say so seems clueless to me.

 

In terms of what makes me more qualified than you? I lived in NI for 3 years. My landlady was an SDLP councillor who was active in the NI civil rights movement in the 1960s to the situation today. I've had numerous chats with her and several other people from both sides of the community. Ok, it's not a GCSE or nowt. Some might think it counts for something.

 

Ermmm, no I didn't.

 

I think of myself as a decent enough writer. But, fitting an entire history of the trouble in Ireland, into a post probably 100 or so words, is a tall order. Even for me.

 

I at no point said the history was the sole reason.

 

Get a grip. And learn to deal with people with different opinions to you. The world doesn't think the same as you, and it's not a bad thing. Everyone who has a different opinion to you is not clueless, as you seem to try and make out at every single juncture.

 

Also, don't be so patronising. A GCSE and an academic journal aren't quite the same thing, are they?

[CB Saint]

Your problem is typical of many who share your political leanings. No real convictions of your own, no real background knowledge, no real attempt to qualify your argument and most of all, a complete lack of empathy with the situation of others.

 

Come on Pap, you are more sensible that that. There are as many people on the left side of the political spectrum who have no real conviction, background knowledge etc that there is on the right. The left don't have a monopoly on those.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Come on Pap, you are more sensible that that. There are as many people on the left side of the political spectrum who have no real conviction, background knowledge etc that there is on the right. The left don't have a monopoly on those.

 

You disagreeing?

 

You don't know anything.

[pap]

You can have empathy with the situation of the Irish, some awful things have happened to the Irish people.

 

But to kill, or condone the killing of innocent people, for things the politicians/leaders from the times of their parents/grandparents is evil.

 

If the black community rose up now, in reaction to slavery, and enslaved the white community, would that be right? Or would that e evil?

 

Ermmm, no I didn't.

 

I think of myself as a decent enough writer. But, fitting an entire history of the trouble in Ireland, into a post probably 100 or so words, is a tall order. Even for me.

 

I at no point said the history was the sole reason.

 

Get a grip. And learn to deal with people with different opinions to you. The world doesn't think the same as you, and it's not a bad thing. Everyone who has a different opinion to you is not clueless, as you seem to try and make out at every single juncture.

 

Also, don't be so patronising. A GCSE and an academic journal aren't quite the same thing, are they?

 

Mate, I can well accept that you may have simply forgotten to mention other reasons when writing the above, but I think this is pretty cut and dried.

 

What are your thoughts on EDF, post the "they're incredibly f**king successful" revelation?

[Whitey Grandad]

If you were around in the early to mid 70's Iam sure you would understand how the citizens of the UK were starting to get sick and tired of the strife caused by the Unions power. The electorate wanted something to be done to stem that power that held the nation to ransom. Nobody wanted the strife that the conflict caused but sadly it needed to be done to stop the ridiculous way the governments were left at the mercy of the far left unions.The balance now is about right, the working people need to be protected but not at the cost of the rest of us.

Very true.

[pap]

Come on Pap, you are more sensible that that. There are as many people on the left side of the political spectrum who have no real conviction, background knowledge etc that there is on the right. The left don't have a monopoly on those.

 

I know, and I didn't mean to imply that the left are the polar opposite of that.

 

However, it's much more prevalent on the right, essentially 'cos they're out of ideas.

[so22saint]

That improves my opinion of him.

 

I didn't expect the death of Baroness Thatcher to make me think more of Stan Collymore. The world is a strange place.

[WindsorSaint]

Don't think this has been posted. Quite interesting viewpoint from someone who was 16 when she resigned (I was 18 when she came to power):

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22076886

[saintfully]

Right, I only authored a 10,00 word document on the IRA, their history, conflicts and actions. Which was published in an academic journal. But yeah, I'm totally clueless.

 

Let me guess, I'm supporting Bloody Sunday now? Both sides in the Irish 'conflict', struggles whatever you want to call them have done wrong. I said that in the post you have quoted, or have you decided to pick that cherry and throw it away.

 

You really need to grow up, and stop dismissing everything you don't like as ill-informed. It's pathetic. What makes you so much more qualified than me?

 

Got a reference for that journal article? I'd love to read it!

[CB Saint]

Don't think this has been posted. Quite interesting viewpoint from someone who was 16 when she resigned (I was 18 when she came to power):

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22076886

 

Interesting read. SHe brought a number of issues to a head that had been skirted around for years (her methodology is debatable). I suspect that the UK is heading for another of these with welfare, pensions, national debt to name but a few needing a final resolution, however I cannot see anyone remotely capable of being able to address these issues in parliament today.

[JackFrost]

This is the biggest myth of the Thatcher era. Statistically manufacturing declined quicker in the 11 years before and the 11 years after her tenure than it did during the 11 years of her tenure, but no matter how many reputable papers report on it, with the public it's in one ear out the other.

 

Indeed.

 

LOL at some of the lefties implying Thatcher single-handedly destroyed Britain's industry, conveniently forgetting our industries were in big trouble as early as the 1950s/1960s and that manufacturing declined from 25.8% to 22.5% under Thatcher, and was still over 20% 7 years after Thatcher left office. When Blair left office in 2007 it was 12.4% and it declined nearly 3 times faster under Blair/Brown than it did under Thatcher.

 

There were large scale closures of mining pits in the 1960s - the last pit in the West Midlands/Black Country area closed in 1968, and our steel industry was making big losses at the same time.

 

By the early Thatcher years it was actually cheaper for us to import coal than mine it ourselves, and considering the recession at the time Thatcher didn't have any other option. Add to that we didn't have the technology back then to mine it anywhere near efficiently as we needed to make it remotely financially viable, the discovery of North Sea Gas, and the rise of the computer meant the collapse of our coal and steel industries was an inevitability, regardless of who was running the country. We had a huge amount of workers working in an outdated industry so it was always going to be painful.

 

Thatcher's fatal error was the way she went about it and cut way too hard way too quickly, and leaving the industry workers with nowhere to go in hardly any time at all. I felt for all the miners and the steel workers but at the end of the day they worked in unsustainable industries and had to move with the times, but I also understand their hatred for Thatcher for the way she did it. In the end Thatcher had to do what she did but she got it badly wrong in the way she did it, and this is where her dislike of compromise became her biggest weakness.

 

Instead of using anasthetic and a dentist's drill, she used a chainsaw and a sledgehammer and it became one of the biggest parts of her legacy.

[shurlock]

Got a reference for that journal article? I'd love to read it!

 

Me too. seriously.

[pap]

Got a reference for that journal article? I'd love to read it!

 

Same here.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Mate, I can well accept that you may have simply forgotten to mention other reasons when writing the above, but I think this is pretty cut and dried.

 

What are your thoughts on EDF, post the "they're incredibly f**king successful" revelation?

 

Ok, I worded that poorly. I'll accept that. I of course know that there is more to it than just plantation at the turn of the century, and the following sturggles. But in fairness, you have also skipped over certain things too.

 

Wow, I didn't realise quite how successful and 100% state owned they were. However, this is still just one example. How many other cases are there of Governments, especially in this country making a balls up of providing services, and wasting millions/billions of tax payer money?.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Got a reference for that journal article? I'd love to read it!

 

It was through the uni.

 

I don't have it to hand. But could probably track it down. It would require a subscription to be read, which often costs £000's. They are more for use in universities etc.

 

It's pretty dull, mostly just historic facts.

 

If you still really want to read it, I'll see what I can do.

[shurlock]

It was through the uni.

 

I don't have it to hand. But could probably track it down. It would require a subscription to be read, which often costs £000's. They are more for use in universities etc.

 

It's pretty dull, mostly just historic facts.

 

If you still really want to read it, I'll see what I can do.

 

You havent got a pdf of it you can bang over?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You havent got a pdf of it you can bang over?

 

I really haven't.

 

Well, not at the moment. My laptop has died, and me being the technological fool I am have also managed to break my external hard-drive.

 

I'm also not entirely sure if I am allowed to share, as it's probably property of the uni/journal.

 

I'm aware how shady this sounds, I probably wouldn't believe me either right now. I do admit I regret mentioning it. I'm just fed up of constantly being told I don't know anything.

[jjsaint]

I really haven't.

 

Well, not at the moment. My laptop has died, and me being the technological fool I am have also managed to break my external hard-drive.

 

I'm also not entirely sure if I am allowed to share, as it's probably property of the uni/journal.

 

I'm aware how shady this sounds, I probably wouldn't believe me either right now. I do admit I regret mentioning it. I'm just fed up of constantly being told I don't know anything.

 

Plus I imagine KRG wants to maintain a level of anonymity. If we have the article, we could easily track down a fair bit of imformation about the author with some basic research.

[pap]

Ok, I worded that poorly. I'll accept that. I of course know that there is more to it than just plantation at the turn of the century, and the following sturggles. But in fairness, you have also skipped over certain things too.

 

Wow, I didn't realise quite how successful and 100% state owned they were. However, this is still just one example. How many other cases are there of Governments, especially in this country making a balls up of providing services, and wasting millions/billions of tax payer money?.

 

I'll give you credit Kelv, you climb down on a point when evidence shows otherwise. I say that not to "beat you", but as a sign of respect.

 

Yeah, EDF are incredibly successful, but £1.6 billion UK profit propping up France's balance sheet really sticks in my craw. If the French can do it, there's no reason why we should not be able to. Thanks to Thatcher's policy, we are subsidising France.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I'll give you credit Kelv, you climb down on a point when evidence shows otherwise. I say that not to "beat you", but as a sign of respect.

 

Yeah, EDF are incredibly successful, but £1.6 billion UK profit propping up France's balance sheet really sticks in my craw. If the French can do it, there's no reason why we should not be able to. Thanks to Thatcher's policy, we are subsidising France.

 

Hey, I'm far from perfect mate. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

 

We're all human. We all get things wrong from time to time.

[Bath Saint]

I really haven't.

 

Well, not at the moment. My laptop has died, and me being the technological fool I am have also managed to break my external hard-drive.

 

I'm also not entirely sure if I am allowed to share, as it's probably property of the uni/journal.

 

I'm aware how shady this sounds, I probably wouldn't believe me either right now. I do admit I regret mentioning it. I'm just fed up of constantly being told I don't know anything.

I work in a university and can usually access these things. Post the reference and I'll track it down, even if it requires an inter-library loan.

[trousers]

This is the biggest myth of the Thatcher era. Statistically manufacturing declined quicker in the 11 years before and the 11 years after her tenure than it did during the 11 years of her tenure, but no matter how many reputable papers report on it, with the public it's in one ear out the other.

 

 

 

 

 

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/Growth_Labour_manufacturing-28817

[trousers]

I work in a university and can usually access these things. Post the reference and I'll track it down, even if it requires an inter-library loan.

 

I can usually find these things from a simple earlobe shot. Take your pick KRG

[Saint_Pedro]

So did your 10,00 (?) document skip over the massive discrimination of the 1960s?

 

You asserted that Adams did what he did for historical reasons. That's not the case at all. To say so seems clueless to me.

 

In terms of what makes me more qualified than you? I lived in NI for 3 years. My landlady was an SDLP councillor who was active in the NI civil rights movement in the 1960s to the situation today. I've had numerous chats with her and several other people from both sides of the community. Ok, it's not a GCSE or nowt. Some might think it counts for something.

 

Just because you lived in NI, it doesn't mean you're always right, pap.

I could write that when Adams dies no one will party in Catholic areas of Northern Ireland – because they’d be shot, but I don't really believe that. Then again .....

 

Anyway, to me the sight of young people (too young to remember her)celebrating her death is disgusting - the fact that she is so hated by young, middle-class imbeciles is testimony to the Tories’ failure to win any of the non-economic battles of the 1980s, not MT herself.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I work in a university and can usually access these things. Post the reference and I'll track it down, even if it requires an inter-library loan.

 

I can usually find these things from a simple earlobe shot. Take your pick KRG

 

I've already said I regret even mentioning this.

 

Let's forget it. I don't wish to go giving stuff about myself out.

 

This thread is about a dead lady, not me. Let's just move on.

[Bath Saint]

I work in a university and can usually access these things. Post the reference and I'll track it down, even if it requires an inter-library loan.

 

I can usually find these things from a simple earlobe shot. Take your pick KRG

Oh, and I almost never hear the 'excuse' from my students that their computer is broken!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Oh, and I almost never hear the 'excuse' from my students that their computer is broken!

 

Fair enough mate. In my defence, i have written a number of things that have been published since I was 16. Short stories, poems (haha girly blah blah blah), blogs, articles (journalistic/academic). I don't keep a copy of every one to hand to prove myself right on an internet forum.

 

You can choose to not believe me if you want. Understandable, I probably wouldn't either. I'm also not hugely keen on giving away my personal information on here. Such as my full name, which is clearly visible on the article.

 

I've apologised, and retracted the statement.

 

Let's move on.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by KelvinsRightGlove

[trousers]

Ian Collins ‏@iancollinsuk7m

Can we finally stop the silly 'it's all Labour's fault' - that was THREE years ago. Move on. Let's stick to Thatcher's fault - 34 years ago.

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p017gnb8

 

Blair on Thatcher: "When you decide, you divide"

[Saint George]

I'll give you credit Kelv, you climb down on a point when evidence shows otherwise. I say that not to "beat you", but as a sign of respect.

 

Yeah, EDF are incredibly successful, but £1.6 billion UK profit propping up France's balance sheet really sticks in my craw. If the French can do it, there's no reason why we should not be able to. Thanks to Thatcher's policy, we are subsidising France.

 

LOL...listen to you......EDF's success was built on investing heavily in nuclear power...They're now the world leaders in the field.....Something else back in the day, your lot would never allow happen in the UK.

 

Like I said yesterday, if you weren't around to experience the decades prior to Maggie then you can never truly appreciate just how bad things were....It's pure fantasy land for anyone who didn't experience it for real.....You would just never believe it.

[pap]

Just because you lived in NI, it doesn't mean you're always right, pap.

I could write that when Adams dies no one will party in Catholic areas of Northern Ireland – because they’d be shot, but I don't really believe that. Then again .....

 

Anyway, to me the sight of young people (too young to remember her)celebrating her death is disgusting - the fact that she is so hated by young, middle-class imbeciles is testimony to the Tories’ failure to win any of the non-economic battles of the 1980s, not MT herself.

 

The fact that I lived in NI doesn't automatically make me right, I agree.

 

However, it's not like this is all I have to say on the matter. So far, I've covered discrimination, Bloody Sunday, state collusion in paramilitary murders and all kinds of other specifics about NI.

 

If all I had to say was "I lived in NI. Feck off", you might have a point. I said more, so you don't.

[pap]

LOL...listen to you......EDF's success was built on investing heavily in nuclear power...They're now the world leaders in the field.....Something else back in the day, your lot would never allow happen in the UK.

 

Like I said yesterday, if you weren't around to experience the decades prior to Maggie then you can never truly appreciate just how bad things were....It's pure fantasy land for anyone who didn't experience it for real.....You would just never believe it.

 

Attempt to obfuscate point duly noted

 

Also, if you're going to throw the "if you were around..." argument about, doesn't that open your generation up for some severe criticism? You were the people who let it get that bad, after all