Maggie Thatcher has died

[pap]

I'm not saying all left wingers are evil, just talking about George Galloway, Gerry Adams, Ken Livingstone, Joey Barton, Frankie Boyle, in which it's not exactly a ridiculous assertion.

 

I have no problem with people not liking her, she was a very devisive figure. The issue is those celebrating her death. Bit sick IMHO.

 

It is a ridiculous assertion, because you're reducing a series of opinions to black and white, to good vs evil - to us and them - just like a good Thatcher child.

 

Let's go through your little list, shall we? George Galloway has a moustache, is a narcissist and an opportunist, but does he twirl aforementioned moustache in a sinister fashion? What evil acts has Galloway committed? How many people did they affect?

 

You're on safer ground with Adams, but it's still shaky. I can appreciate that you are factoring in his IRA past. Two things on that. First, if I was born in Adams' community and had to deal with the sort of daily injustice that happened during the troubles, can't say that I'd have been pleased. Besides, Adams is now a politician who works through the political process. Have you forgotten how much has actually been achieved since the GFA?

 

Ken Livingstone. Again, I'd apply labels of narcissism to Ken, but evil? C'mon.

 

Joey Barton. Blimey. I'd never thought I'd have to act as an apologist for him, but here goes. Joey's not from a good family. His half-brother and his cousin are both in the 'nick for a racially aggravated murder, which they committed together. I'm well aware of his own nasty moments in front of the beak. You might actually have a case. Thing is, Barton is more "angry new money" than evil.

 

Finally, Frankie Boyle. The comedy equivalent of a shock jock that gets tiresome after a while. Evil? Nah. Funny? Briefly, until you realise that saying the most offensive thing he can is his schtick.

 

Got any more evil left wingers for me to deconstruct?

Edited 9 April, 2013 by pap

[Tokyo-Saint]

Chairman Mao!

[sussexsaint]

To be fair Tokyo I'm not sure he has tweeted anything much regarding the demise of Mrs T

[pap]

Chairman Mao!

 

See, that's a good choice for evil left winger (30M people dead as a result of policies). As is Stalin (another 30M dead), or Tony Blair (1m dead as result of lies).

 

And yet, our left-wing Axis of Evil is:-

 

George Galloway (0 people dead)

Gerry Adams (at most, 5K people)

Ken Livingstone (0 people dead)

Joey Barton (1 cigar in eye, 1 people dead if you include sins of the family)

Frankie Boyle (0 people dead)

 

Try harder, DPS. These are sh!t evil left wingers.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Thanks Pap.

[Tokyo-Saint]

To be fair Tokyo I'm not sure he has tweeted anything much regarding the demise of Mrs T

 

@Chinachairman

08/04/2013 21:41

Another righty down, soon I'll rule the world muhahaha

 

Download the official Twitter app here

[ART]

Heading for Number One according to the news

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-facebook-campaign-1818341

 

DING DONG THE WICKED WITCH IS DEAD

 

Edited 9 April, 2013 by ART

[norwaysaint]

I'm not saying all left wingers are evil, just talking about George Galloway, Gerry Adams, Ken Livingstone, Joey Barton, Frankie Boyle, in which it's not exactly a ridiculous assertion.

 

I have no problem with people not liking her, she was a very devisive figure. The issue is those celebrating her death. Bit sick IMHO.

 

You said that ALL people who are happy she's dead are evil. that's a pretty silly comment and like I said, anybody who actually sees the world in those terms is too naive to be taken seriously.

None of the people in your list could actually be called evil. When I was a child growing up hearing one sided news, I might have believed Gerry Adams and the IRA were evil. as I've grown older and read about the history of Northern Ireland and what was done to the Irish population, I've come to see where the hatred and desire to strike out came from. I don't agree with what they did, but I'm now old enough and understand enough to see it's far from "evil".

 

Those people in your list are no more evil than Margaret Thatcher.

[Kingsland Codger]

Earlier in this thread one or two of the younger members who were born/became politically aware post-Thatcher wondered what some of us oldies experienced.

 

I can say Britain in the early 70's was an inconvenient place to live. There were constant strikes and I can certainly recall having to study for my 'O' and 'A' levels by candle and torchlight in the freezing cold. (I also recall being told by my mother, that my generation were lucky and we should be grateful the Luftwaffe were dropping bombs every night). If it wasn't the electrical workes, it was the miners, the steelworkers, the railways, the dockers (there was indeed a dock strike in 1970) ... It didn't matter who was in power, Heath or Wilson/Callaghan, I'm not even sure who was to 'blame'; Industrial Relations were just shocking.

 

My studies took me to live overseas to a country (Japan) where customer convenience was the driving force and it was a real eye-opener to see how a place buzzed when everything (and everybody) worked in harmony. I barely lived in the UK during the Thatcher/Major period and so I never grasped the social divisions tearing the country apart but the Britain I returned to about 15 years ago was a nation that had changed for the better. One example - I needed a new telephone line installed and was fully expecting a 6 to 8 week wait; the engineer came the next day.

 

If this is Mrs Thatcher's legacy then maybe she succeeded - but had I stayed in the UK and lived in the North my approach might be very different.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Pre Thatcher Britains manufacturing skilled workers = 30%

After Thatcher Britains manufacturing skilled workers = 10%

 

We now buy cheap laboured crap in from overseas and yet millions dont have work here, what do Germany and France do? Subsidise the manufacturing industry and keep their Countries working, what do we do? Bet on the Worlds casino at the whim of a few in an office in London.

 

This post is a proper old 'blast from the past' for me.

 

How well I remember as a child hearing the adults around me drone on contemptuously about inferior "Japanese Rubbish" and how they were "Backing Britain" only to discover that when their Morris Marina (or even Jaguar XJ6 if they were better off) refused to start on a cold morning their neighbours "rubbish" Datsun unaccountably would. Have you heard the story about the chap who opened up the boot of his new Mini Metro to find some git on the production line had thrown a empty fag packet into the back - and it had been spay painted over!

 

You say that even more public money should have been pumped into failing state controlled industries. Well this raises the interesting question of where does the money come from (the NHS/Defence/Pensions?) and in any case the record shows we dumped plenty into British Steel, Leyland, Upper Clyde Shipbuilders ... etc and it just didn't work. It is surely not the role of government to prop up failing uncompetitive business - perhaps some deserve to fail. It is hopelessly simplistic to blame the long term decline of our manufacturing sector on any one politician or political party - there's plenty of blame to spread around.

 

OK (like many of Thatcher's sternest critics on here) you're just too young to remember the era properly. But try to look past what lefty school/university teachers may have taught you seek the truth. Poor management and a lack of investment played a big part in our industrial problems of course, I sometimes think the heavy price we paid for winning two World Wars was also significant, but Google 'Red Robbo' for example, learn about the terrible industrial relations of the era and try to gain a better understanding of the state our industry had fallen into at the time - The Sick Man of Europe.

 

On a personal note, I left school in 1979 just as Thatcher came to power. At the tender age of 16 I emerged right into the face of a recession that makes our current problems look like a stroll in the park. As a result life was a real struggle for myself and millions of others like me at the time. But even as a working class (naturally Labour inclined) lad I knew in my heart of hearts that this nation needed someone like Thatcher to sort it out. What was the alternative anyway? If you really think we'd be some industrial superpower today had the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, and Arthur Scargill been running the place then you better change your location info to Cloud Cuckoo Land my friend.

[trousers]

http://redmolucca.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/tramp-the-dirt-down/

[pap]

This post is a proper old 'blast from the past' for me.

 

How well I remember as a child hearing the adults around me drone on contemptuously about inferior "Japanese Rubbish" and how they were "Backing Britain" only to discover that when their Morris Marina (or even Jaguar XJ6 if they were better off) refused to start on a cold morning their neighbours "rubbish" Datsun unaccountably would. Have you heard the story about the chap who opened up the boot of his new Mini Metro to find some git on the production line had thrown a empty fag packet into the back - and it had been spay painted over!

 

You say that even more public money should have been pumped into failing state controlled industries. Well this raises the interesting question of where does the money come from (the NHS/Defence/Pensions?) and in any case the record shows we dumped plenty into British Steel, Leyland, Upper Clyde Shipbuilders ... etc and it just didn't work. It is surely not the role of government to prop up failing uncompetitive business - perhaps some deserve to fail. It is hopelessly simplistic to blame the long term decline of our manufacturing sector on any one politician or political party - there's plenty of blame to spread around.

 

OK (like many of Thatcher's sternest critics on here) you're just too young to remember the era properly. But try to look past what lefty school/university teachers may have taught you seek the truth. Poor management and a lack of investment played a big part in our industrial problems of course, I sometimes think the heavy price we paid for winning two World Wars was also significant, but Google 'Red Robbo' for example, learn about the terrible industrial relations of the era and try to gain a better understanding of the state our industry had fallen into at the time - The Sick Man of Europe.

 

On a personal note, I left school in 1979 just as Thatcher came to power. At the tender age of 16 I emerged right into the face of a recession that makes our current problems look like a stroll in the park. As a result life was a real struggle for myself and millions of others like me at the time. But even as a working class (naturally Labour inclined) lad I knew in my heart of hearts that this nation needed someone like Thatcher to sort it out. What was the alternative anyway? If you really think we'd be some industrial superpower today had the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, and Arthur Scargill been running the place then you better change your location info to Cloud Cuckoo Land my friend.

 

Thing is, we're not an industrial superpower today.

 

Thatcher's mission was to destroy the unions. To do that, she chose to destroy the industry underneath them. We still deal with that legacy today. Alexei Sayle's point, about Thatcher removing traditional industry and concentrating on arms and financial services, was a good one.

 

I accept your point about being too young to have any meaningful recollection of the 70s. I wasn't really there; all I remember is getting educated by my grandfather and terrible, terrible wallpaper. So yeah, you'll need to take our comments on that basis, just as I have to defer to the knowledge of those that are older than me.

 

That all said, it certainly doesn't exclude us relative youngsters from being able to assess the impact of her Premiership, in much the same way as I can read about other historical events and draw conclusions about why things happened the way they did afterwards. What is certain is that Thatcher really was the death of nationalised industry, and that Cameron plans to continue her "sell everything off" legacy. You could argue the case for some of these services going private, especially given the poor custodianship of some of those services in public hands, such as the Post Office installing phone lines, or Pickfords being a nationalised industry. However, it's my view that we went too far, and for all the criticism of Brown selling the gold reserves, it's probably worth remembering that Thatcher sold a hell of a lot more during her time in office, including some industries that have no business being privatised.

[Sour Mash]

Sour Mash

 

Err no I didn't I disliked her policies, you simply are defending her by saying was I alive to comment on her policies, I was but to young to know, my parents were not though, I have read history on it, poor example and quite silly to be honest as by your rule Dan Starkey shouldn't pass judgement on Queen Mary etc etc.

Where have I said that? I haven't mentioned your or anyone else's age. I asked that if she was so bad, how come she was elected/re-elected 3 times? It was you who said you don't know as you were too young at the time. It is unfortunate that a small part of the country suffered under her governments, no-one would want that, but for the majority of the country, she was a success.

[eurosaint]

This post is a proper old 'blast from the past' for me.

 

How well I remember as a child hearing the adults around me drone on contemptuously about inferior "Japanese Rubbish" and how they were "Backing Britain" only to discover that when their Morris Marina (or even Jaguar XJ6 if they were better off) refused to start on a cold morning their neighbours "rubbish" Datsun unaccountably would. Have you heard the story about the chap who opened up the boot of his new Mini Metro to find some git on the production line had thrown a empty fag packet into the back - and it had been spay painted over!

 

You say that even more public money should have been pumped into failing state controlled industries. Well this raises the interesting question of where does the money come from (the NHS/Defence/Pensions?) and in any case the record shows we dumped plenty into British Steel, Leyland, Upper Clyde Shipbuilders ... etc and it just didn't work. It is surely not the role of government to prop up failing uncompetitive business - perhaps some deserve to fail. It is hopelessly simplistic to blame the long term decline of our manufacturing sector on any one politician or political party - there's plenty of blame to spread around.

 

OK (like many of Thatcher's sternest critics on here) you're just too young to remember the era properly. But try to look past what lefty school/university teachers may have taught you seek the truth. Poor management and a lack of investment played a big part in our industrial problems of course, I sometimes think the heavy price we paid for winning two World Wars was also significant, but Google 'Red Robbo' for example, learn about the terrible industrial relations of the era and try to gain a better understanding of the state our industry had fallen into at the time - The Sick Man of Europe.

 

On a personal note, I left school in 1979 just as Thatcher came to power. At the tender age of 16 I emerged right into the face of a recession that makes our current problems look like a stroll in the park. As a result life was a real struggle for myself and millions of others like me at the time. But even as a working class (naturally Labour inclined) lad I knew in my heart of hearts that this nation needed someone like Thatcher to sort it out. What was the alternative anyway? If you really think we'd be some industrial superpower today had the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, and Arthur Scargill been running the place then you better change your location info to Cloud Cuckoo Land my friend.

 

Good post !

[Lord Duckhunter]

None of the people in your list could actually be called evil. When I was a child growing up hearing one sided news, I might have believed Gerry Adams and the IRA were evil. as I've grown older and read about the history of Northern Ireland and what was done to the Irish population, I've come to see where the hatred and desire to strike out came from. I don't agree with what they did, but I'm now old enough and understand enough to see it's far from "evil".

 

Those people in your list are no more evil than Margaret Thatcher.

 

If you really believe that Gerry Adams was no more evil than Maggie Thatcher, then you are seriously deluded .

 

What people like Adams and McGuiness did was pure evil and just because the establishment held their noses and arranged some sort of "peace" does not suddenly make them freedom fighters or soldiers. They were murdering evil bastards, end of.

[badgerx16]

1)

 

2) Friends in high places ? 4 weeks after we get an Argie for Pope.....

[CB Saint]

Thing is, we're not an industrial superpower today.

 

Thatcher's mission was to destroy the unions. To do that, she chose to destroy the industry underneath them. We still deal with that legacy today. Alexei Sayle's point, about Thatcher removing traditional industry and concentrating on arms and financial services, was a good one.

 

I accept your point about being too young to have any meaningful recollection of the 70s. I wasn't really there; all I remember is getting educated by my grandfather and terrible, terrible wallpaper. So yeah, you'll need to take our comments on that basis, just as I have to defer to the knowledge of those that are older than me.

 

That all said, it certainly doesn't exclude us relative youngsters from being able to assess the impact of her Premiership, in much the same way as I can read about other historical events and draw conclusions about why things happened the way they did afterwards. What is certain is that Thatcher really was the death of nationalised industry, and that Cameron plans to continue her "sell everything off" legacy. You could argue the case for some of these services going private, especially given the poor custodianship of some of those services in public hands, such as the Post Office installing phone lines, or Pickfords being a nationalised industry. However, it's my view that we went too far, and for all the criticism of Brown selling the gold reserves, it's probably worth remembering that Thatcher sold a hell of a lot more during her time in office, including some industries that have no business being privatised.

 

The confrontation with the Unions needed to happen - they had become too powerful, far in excess of their original remit which is to safeguard workers welfare. They toppled heath government and were controlling Callaghans. That is not a healthy state of affairs for any country.

 

Thatcher picked the miners to have it out with, probably because it was easier to plan for (started in spring and the government had been stockpiling coal for years) plus the government had a secret weapon in the heart of the NUM - Arthur Scargill.

 

What was wrong with the process was that there was no support for the communities that it affected. Unless you grew up in one of those villages, I think the impact of pretty much everyone losing their job is hard to grasp. In a perfect world there would have been a more orderly withdrawal of central government support to the loss making pits with aid being provided to the communities. Unfortunately I don't beleive that the unions would ever have counternanced that, therefore an all of nothing fight was inevitable.

[pap]

If you really believe that Gerry Adams was no more evil than Maggie Thatcher, then you are seriously deluded .

 

What people like Adams and McGuiness did was pure evil and just because the establishment held their noses and arranged some sort of "peace" does not suddenly make them freedom fighters or soldiers. They were murdering evil bastards, end of.

 

Yet another child-like comment from the right.

 

Ooh! Evil man.

 

Everything is black and white for you, isn't it Lord D. You and the small group of people you consider to be like you against the world?

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you might try remembering that under Thatcher's government, the state colluded in murdering Catholics. Better still, you might try imagining being born in a developed country but having the vast majority of your opportunity curtailed because of who your parents are.

 

I'll take your uninformed comments and raise them. I spent 3 years living and working in NI. Even today, the neglect and indifference of previous governments is still visible. You hear stories about how people used to get their jobs which seem as if they're tales from ages past. "If your father worked in the ship factory, you would work in the ship factory".

 

If we adopted your attitude, NI would still be tearing itself apart right now. Thank f**k there are people in this world who can see shades of grey.

[CB Saint]

1)

 

QUOTE]

 

See, she is already making Hell a better place

[Sour Mash]

Yet another child-like comment from the right.

 

Ooh! Evil man.

 

Everything is black and white for you, isn't it Lord D. You and the small group of people you consider to be like you against the world?

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you might try remembering that under Thatcher's government, the state colluded in murdering Catholics. Better still, you might try imagining being born in a developed country but having the vast majority of your opportunity curtailed because of who your parents are.

 

I'll take your uninformed comments and raise them. I spent 3 years living and working in NI. Even today, the neglect and indifference of previous governments is still visible. You hear stories about how people used to get their jobs which seem as if they're tales from ages past. "If your father worked in the ship factory, you would work in the ship factory".

 

If we adopted your attitude, NI would still be tearing itself apart right now. Thank f**k there are people in this world who can see shades of grey.

So how would you class McGuinness and Adams?

[pap]

So how would you class McGuinness and Adams?

 

McGuinness is the current Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.

 

Adams is TD for Louth.

 

Consequently, the pair of them are politicians with a violent past that have since renounced violence as a means to achieving its ends, and have put weapons beyond use.

 

How would you class them?

[CB Saint]

McGuinness is the current Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.

 

Adams is TD for Louth.

 

Consequently, the pair of them are politicians with a violent past that have since renounced violence as a means to achieving its ends, and have put weapons beyond use.

 

How would you class them?

 

Murderous Scum

[Lord Duckhunter]

Yet another child-like comment from the right.

 

Ooh! Evil man.

 

Everything is black and white for you, isn't it Lord D. You and the small group of people you consider to be like you against the world?

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you might try remembering that under Thatcher's government, the state colluded in murdering Catholics. Better still, you might try imagining being born in a developed country but having the vast majority of your opportunity curtailed because of who your parents are.

 

I'll take your uninformed comments and raise them. I spent 3 years living and working in NI. Even today, the neglect and indifference of previous governments is still visible. You hear stories about how people used to get their jobs which seem as if they're tales from ages past. "If your father worked in the ship factory, you would work in the ship factory".

 

If we adopted your attitude, NI would still be tearing itself apart right now. Thank f**k there are people in this world who can see shades of grey.

 

Don't be so ****ing stupid, it's hardly child like to call Adams evil. He was personally involved and also sanctioned some evil acts including some against his own community. Rather than being "uniformed" a good friend of mine was in the Garda at the time, admittedly in Lucan rather than the border area, but he'll tell you intelligence they had and the things these guys did. They were at the very top of an organisation that knee capped their own, made people from their own community disappear and murdered innocent men, women, and children.

 

And what attitude have I adopted over the "peace process", I made no comment over it other than call Adams Evil. Don't you think the Paisleys of this world think he's evil, don't you think John Major thought he was evil, Mo Mowlem knew he was evil. He was one evil son of a *****, but they held their noses and dealt with him. Calling Adams evil does not mean one is against this manufactured peace. Why try and make out he's some sort of Nelson Mandela.

[Sour Mash]

Murderous Scum

Exactly that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Murderous Scum

 

Correct, they were.

 

They've been very brave to do what they've done, but that doesn't make them Ghandi. And it certainly doesn't make Maggie Thatcher as evil as them

[pap]

Don't be so ****ing stupid, it's hardly child like to call Adams evil. He was personally involved and also sanctioned some evil acts including some against his own community. Rather than being "uniformed" a good friend of mine was in the Garda at the time, admittedly in Lucan rather than the border area, but he'll tell you intelligence they had and the things these guys did. They were at the very top of an organisation that knee capped their own, made people from their own community disappear and murdered innocent men, women, and children.

 

And what attitude have I adopted over the "peace process", I made no comment over it other than call Adams Evil. Don't you think the Paisleys of this world think he's evil, don't you think John Major thought he was evil, Mo Mowlem knew he was evil. He was one evil son of a *****, but they held their noses and dealt with him. Calling Adams evil does not mean one is against this manufactured peace. Why try and make out he's some sort of Nelson Mandela.

 

Yup. The other side did all the same things. One of the favourite tricks amongst both camps was to kill their own and blame it on the other side. One side had the support of the British state, actively colluding in the murder of Catholics. The other did not.

 

You've done nothing further in your post to convince me that your comments aren't child-like. You really want to use Paisley as an example, a firebrand who's "never" line caused so much suffering in that part of the world? Then you make your comments about Mo Mowlem knowing he was evil. I've read a lot about Mo's involvement in the NI peace process. She broke down barriers by not acting like a mealy-mouthed politician, not by labelling the protagonists in the dispute as evil.

[Frank's cousin]

This post is a proper old 'blast from the past' for me.

 

How well I remember as a child hearing the adults around me drone on contemptuously about inferior "Japanese Rubbish" and how they were "Backing Britain" only to discover that when their Morris Marina (or even Jaguar XJ6 if they were better off) refused to start on a cold morning their neighbours "rubbish" Datsun unaccountably would. Have you heard the story about the chap who opened up the boot of his new Mini Metro to find some git on the production line had thrown a empty fag packet into the back - and it had been spay painted over!

 

You say that even more public money should have been pumped into failing state controlled industries. Well this raises the interesting question of where does the money come from (the NHS/Defence/Pensions?) and in any case the record shows we dumped plenty into British Steel, Leyland, Upper Clyde Shipbuilders ... etc and it just didn't work. It is surely not the role of government to prop up failing uncompetitive business - perhaps some deserve to fail. It is hopelessly simplistic to blame the long term decline of our manufacturing sector on any one politician or political party - there's plenty of blame to spread around.

 

OK (like many of Thatcher's sternest critics on here) you're just too young to remember the era properly. But try to look past what lefty school/university teachers may have taught you seek the truth. Poor management and a lack of investment played a big part in our industrial problems of course, I sometimes think the heavy price we paid for winning two World Wars was also significant, but Google 'Red Robbo' for example, learn about the terrible industrial relations of the era and try to gain a better understanding of the state our industry had fallen into at the time - The Sick Man of Europe.

 

On a personal note, I left school in 1979 just as Thatcher came to power. At the tender age of 16 I emerged right into the face of a recession that makes our current problems look like a stroll in the park. As a result life was a real struggle for myself and millions of others like me at the time. But even as a working class (naturally Labour inclined) lad I knew in my heart of hearts that this nation needed someone like Thatcher to sort it out. What was the alternative anyway? If you really think we'd be some industrial superpower today had the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, and Arthur Scargill been running the place then you better change your location info to Cloud Cuckoo Land my friend.

 

 

 

First up, like most resonably decent people, I find the 'rejoicing' in the death of a person shameful, and I say that as someone who would be happy to state categorically that she was 'not a very nice person' - But I am sure even Elvis Costello would not now literally be 'tramping the dirt down'

 

But I have a huge problem with those that are elevating her into some sort of 'great Britain' - those eulogizing obsessively with the collective schophantic cliche.

 

Anyone who still looks at her legacy and defends her approach is forgetting the grim reality of her approach...IMHO.

 

I like think I have a fair grasp of the political changes that have occured over the last 3-4 decades, and like most who view these things by dissassociating political alliegence/ideology when making a judgement on her actions, you can see its not as clear cut as thus thrusting tehir politics down our throughts like to suggest.

 

Britain in the 70s WAS breaking, the Unions DID have too much power and years of lack of investment and **** taking by the Unions had crippled our heavy industry... Thatcher knew that stranglehold needed to be broken, and that economically, these industries needed to become either self sufficient, modern and productive or die. Thing is there were different ways of doing things. In Japan and Germany, legislation was such that it encouraged management/worker forums, giving wprkers a say and a share of the companies they worked within - this change from firebrand unionism to effective collective commercial reality was achieved without breaking entire industries - redundancies and improvemnets in efficiency achieved through colaboration and discussion.

 

Thatcher was about a big stick - forget the need for the shakeup , that was a given, but the way she delivered it was brutal. A complete lack of compassion and IMHO a complete lack of foresight on the impact this brutality would have on whole communities - yet she remained undaunted as this never effected here core southern vote. That was the shameful part in my opinion. The fact that communities went to nothing overnight and left now two generations without hope. Communities that had pride and respect, pulled apart and left with as burnt out as the cars that replaced pretty front gardens in countless 'estates'.

 

This is not about political ideology, like I have said, I can fully accept that change was necessary, but the way she went about it suggested she either was too stupid to see the consequences, did not care about teh consequences, or it was calculated to errode the core support of the oposition... whichever its does not suggest that we should be putting her on a pedastal as some great leader...

 

 

I will not celebrate her death, that is equallly shameful, but neither will I do the usual British thing and somehow forget about the grim reality that she precided over, nor the grim legacy that she left behind.

[pap]

Murderous Scum

 

Speaking of which....

 

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/printable/13168/

 

Your tax payer money, as spent on murder, during Thatcher's era.

[Minty]

“Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that." ~ Martin Luther King, Jr

[ottery st mary]

Looking back through the history books/films......I have slowly come to realise

what an amazing Lady.... Margaret Thatcher was...

 

Love her or loathe her.......A remarkable human being.

 

God bless you and may you RIP xx

[pap]

First up, like most resonably decent people, I find the 'rejoicing' in the death of a person shameful, and I say that as someone who would be happy to state categorically that she was 'not a very nice person' - But I am sure even Elvis Costello would not now literally be 'tramping the dirt down'

 

But I have a huge problem with those that are elevating her into some sort of 'great Britain' - those eulogizing obsessively with the collective schophantic cliche.

 

Anyone who still looks at her legacy and defends her approach is forgetting the grim reality of her approach...IMHO.

 

I like think I have a fair grasp of the political changes that have occured over the last 3-4 decades, and like most who view these things by dissassociating political alliegence/ideology when making a judgement on her actions, you can see its not as clear cut as thus thrusting tehir politics down our throughts like to suggest.

 

Britain in the 70s WAS breaking, the Unions DID have too much power and years of lack of investment and **** taking by the Unions had crippled our heavy industry... Thatcher knew that stranglehold needed to be broken, and that economically, these industries needed to become either self sufficient, modern and productive or die. Thing is there were different ways of doing things. In Japan and Germany, legislation was such that it encouraged management/worker forums, giving wprkers a say and a share of the companies they worked within - this change from firebrand unionism to effective collective commercial reality was achieved without breaking entire industries - redundancies and improvemnets in efficiency achieved through colaboration and discussion.

 

Thatcher was about a big stick - forget the need for the shakeup , that was a given, but the way she delivered it was brutal. A complete lack of compassion and IMHO a complete lack of foresight on the impact this brutality would have on whole communities - yet she remained undaunted as this never effected here core southern vote. That was the shameful part in my opinion. The fact that communities went to nothing overnight and left now two generations without hope. Communities that had pride and respect, pulled apart and left with as burnt out as the cars that replaced pretty front gardens in countless 'estates'.

 

This is not about political ideology, like I have said, I can fully accept that change was necessary, but the way she went about it suggested she either was too stupid to see the consequences, did not care about teh consequences, or it was calculated to errode the core support of the oposition... whichever its does not suggest that we should be putting her on a pedastal as some great leader...

 

 

I will not celebrate her death, that is equallly shameful, but neither will I do the usual British thing and somehow forget about the grim reality that she precided over, nor the grim legacy that she left behind.

 

Good post, Frank's Cousin - and one that puts a few things into perspective.

 

Like yourself, I'm far from convinced that what actually happened was the only way to pull Britain out of the mire. I've seen enough posts indicating that the unions held too much sway in the 70s to ignore them, but I don't accept that the permanent destruction of Britain's industry was the only way to achieve it.

[hutch]

If you want to be taken seriously, you might try remembering that under Thatcher's government, the state colluded in murdering Catholics.

You're probably right that they did, or at the very least turned a blind eye. But it certainly wasn't because they were Catholics.

[CB Saint]

Speaking of which....

 

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/printable/13168/

 

Your tax payer money, as spent on murder, during Thatcher's era.

 

The author is described on his own web site as “A Marxist proletarian firebrand.” (The Guardian) - not exactly objective.

 

I do not doubt that attrocities were committed by both sides, internment for example was appalling. I do not doubt that security forces assisted loyalist paramilitaries - "your enemies enemy" and all that. However none of that changes the fact that Adams and McGuiness are murderous scum.

[pap]

You're probably right that they did, or at the very least turned a blind eye. But it certainly wasn't because they were Catholics.

 

When Cameron's govt is busy apologising for this, we can take "probably" out of the equation.

 

From the small amount of copy you've posted, it seems as if you're trying to assert that everyone the Govt helped to murder was some kind of bomb-chucker. Where does Pat Finucane sit within this explosive fantasy? Murdered with government help because he represented Republicans in court.

[jjsaint]

I'm not saying all left wingers are evil, just talking about George Galloway, Gerry Adams, Ken Livingstone, Joey Barton, Frankie Boyle, in which it's not exactly a ridiculous assertion.

 

I have no problem with people not liking her, she was a very devisive figure. The issue is those celebrating her death. Bit sick IMHO.

 

Exactly. More posts like this & I'd spend more time on here.

 

Joey Barton left-wing though?!? Not sure about this. Although as the poster boy for 'managed decline' he may be entitled to a bit of anti-Thatcher feeling.

[ottery st mary]

Joey Barton .....surely mid field maestro:)

[pap]

Lifted from Nick Cave's Facebook status.

 

Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and polarising politic leader of the last century. This is an incomplete list of why many of us fall on the side that does not regard her with anything other than odium…

 

 

1. She supported the retention of capital punishment

2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry

3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws

4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")

5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)

6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration

7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)

8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million

9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands

10. The poll tax

11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad

12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War

13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years

14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS

15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits

16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA

17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control

18. Section 28

19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"

20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers

21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population

22. She opposed the reunification of Germany

23. She invented Quangos

24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%

25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister

26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech

27. The Al Yamamah contract

28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet

29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike

30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%

31. BSE

32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession

33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process

34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa

35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin

36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher

37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion

38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage

39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.

40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education

41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions

42. 21.9% inflation

 

 

Most people recognise the massive changes that evolved during the 1980s. However, to ascribe the positive changes to one person, as though they never would have happened in her absence, is laughable.

[badgerx16]

For those asking how she got re-elected if her policies were so bad, this is the political map after the 1983 poll :

 

 

And after the 1987 one :

 

I think there is probably a clear correlation between the economic impact of the Government and pattern of voting.

[hutch]

Murdered with government help because he represented Republicans in court.

I have no idea. Maybe you're right or maybe you're wrong. But that's different from "because he was Catholic" isn't it?

[Sour Mash]

For those asking how she got re-elected if her policies were so bad, this is the political map after the 1983 poll :

 

 

And after the 1987 one :

 

I think there is probably a clear correlation between the economic impact of the Government and pattern of voting.

As with any elecetion. Regardless, for the majority of the country, she was a success.

[trousers]

Speaking of which....

 

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/printable/13168/

 

Your tax payer money, as spent on murder, during Thatcher's era.

 

Some interesting articles on that site...

 

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/5841/

[pap]

I have no idea. Maybe you're right or maybe you're wrong. But that's different from "because he was Catholic" isn't it?

 

Did I, at any point, say these people were murdered because they were Catholics?

 

Nope, I said that the British government colluded in the murder of Catholics, which they did.

 

As you may have surmised, I do like a bit of a debate, but it really helps when people stick to what I've said, and not what they imagine I've said.

[Saint_Pedro]

Same here. We are off to the pub in a minute to celebrate just as we did back then.

 

 

Hope you drink yourself into a coma... and don't come out of it

[pap]

Some interesting articles on that site...

 

http://www.spiked-online.com/site/article/5841/

 

 

Yeah, you or others have linked this particular article loads of times in substitution for an independent opinion

[trousers]

Most people recognise the massive changes that evolved during the 1980s. However, to ascribe the positive changes to one person, as though they never would have happened in her absence, is laughable.

 

Fair comment. As is the reverse.

[trousers]

Yeah, you or others have linked this particular article loads of times in substitution for an independent opinion

 

Opinions are figments of the human imagination

[alpine_saint]

This post is a proper old 'blast from the past' for me.

 

How well I remember as a child hearing the adults around me drone on contemptuously about inferior "Japanese Rubbish" and how they were "Backing Britain" only to discover that when their Morris Marina (or even Jaguar XJ6 if they were better off) refused to start on a cold morning their neighbours "rubbish" Datsun unaccountably would. Have you heard the story about the chap who opened up the boot of his new Mini Metro to find some git on the production line had thrown a empty fag packet into the back - and it had been spay painted over!

 

You say that even more public money should have been pumped into failing state controlled industries. Well this raises the interesting question of where does the money come from (the NHS/Defence/Pensions?) and in any case the record shows we dumped plenty into British Steel, Leyland, Upper Clyde Shipbuilders ... etc and it just didn't work. It is surely not the role of government to prop up failing uncompetitive business - perhaps some deserve to fail. It is hopelessly simplistic to blame the long term decline of our manufacturing sector on any one politician or political party - there's plenty of blame to spread around.

 

OK (like many of Thatcher's sternest critics on here) you're just too young to remember the era properly. But try to look past what lefty school/university teachers may have taught you seek the truth. Poor management and a lack of investment played a big part in our industrial problems of course, I sometimes think the heavy price we paid for winning two World Wars was also significant, but Google 'Red Robbo' for example, learn about the terrible industrial relations of the era and try to gain a better understanding of the state our industry had fallen into at the time - The Sick Man of Europe.

 

On a personal note, I left school in 1979 just as Thatcher came to power. At the tender age of 16 I emerged right into the face of a recession that makes our current problems look like a stroll in the park. As a result life was a real struggle for myself and millions of others like me at the time. But even as a working class (naturally Labour inclined) lad I knew in my heart of hearts that this nation needed someone like Thatcher to sort it out. What was the alternative anyway? If you really think we'd be some industrial superpower today had the likes of Michael Foot, Tony Benn, and Arthur Scargill been running the place then you better change your location info to Cloud Cuckoo Land my friend.

 

Top, top drawer post, my friend.

 

The utter dishonesty of the left never fails to amuse me. Thatcher did her best to sort out the utter f**king mess the previous decade of Labour Government had wreaked upon Britain, much like Cameron in his head thinks hes doing the same after Blair and Brown trashed Britain again (although he hasnt Maggies balls or majority to do the job..)

 

Britain was nearly bankrupted and its industries ruined forever by power-hungry greedy union bosses and a Labour government that either actively colluded or sat by wringing its hands doing nothing.

 

Take the miners strike in 1984....

 

Scargill refused to ballot his membership properly, he simply wanted to bring down the democratically elected (majority 144) government whose hue and politics he didnt like, in the same way as he predecessors had done in 1974 to Heath. what he didnt realise was this was a battle the Government could never have allowed itself to lose, and when the dust settled his actions had led to the destruction of the rest of the industry (and union representation in general) he claimed to be championing (bizarrely, next time round, a lot people said he was right and there was a lot more resistance, but he had blown the real window of opportunity on an egotistical power trip)

 

Longbridge, the heart of the British Car Industry....

 

Red Robbos entry on Wiki : 'According to the BBC, "between 1978 and 1979 Mr Robinson was credited with causing 523 walk-outs at Longbridge, costing an estimated £200m in lost production".' 200m then is about 2bn now. There was no way BMW were ever able to turn that busted flush around.

[Saint_Pedro]

Heading for Number One according to the news

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-facebook-campaign-1818341

 

DING DONG THE WICKED WITCH IS DEAD

 

 

Stop reading that idiotic newspaper - its for simpletons.....

[Saint_Pedro]

If you really believe that Gerry Adams was no more evil than Maggie Thatcher, then you are seriously deluded .

 

What people like Adams and McGuiness did was pure evil and just because the establishment held their noses and arranged some sort of "peace" does not suddenly make them freedom fighters or soldiers. They were murdering evil bastards, end of.

 

This

[alpine_saint]

Lifted from Nick Cave's Facebook status.

 

Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and polarising politic leader of the last century. This is an incomplete list of why many of us fall on the side that does not regard her with anything other than odium…

 

 

1. She supported the retention of capital punishment

2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry

3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws

4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")

5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)

6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration

7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)

8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million

9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands

10. The poll tax

11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad

12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War

13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years

14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS

15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits

16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA

17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control

18. Section 28

19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"

20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers

21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population

22. She opposed the reunification of Germany

23. She invented Quangos

24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%

25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister

26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech

27. The Al Yamamah contract

28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet

29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike

30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%

31. BSE

32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession

33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process

34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa

35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin

36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher

37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion

38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage

39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.

40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education

41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions

42. 21.9% inflation

 

 

Most people recognise the massive changes that evolved during the 1980s. However, to ascribe the positive changes to one person, as though they never would have happened in her absence, is laughable.

 

That list is truly f**king hilarious. Talk about clutching at straws with some of them.

 

Hey pap, a serious question.

 

You hail from the same neck of the woods as me. Why dont you drop the professional Whining Scouser act for a bit ?