Maggie Thatcher has died

[Barry Sanchez]

Thatcher didn't actually close any mines - she withdrew public funding. So, if these collieries were profitable then they would/should have survived anyway. Some were profitable, some weren't.

 

Bull****, she bought smoking Polish coal and forced the closure of mines that could not compete, there were mines that actuakly made money but were still shut.

[alpine_saint]

Have you ever seen Brassed Off ?

 

Yes, and what a cracking pair of legs Tara Fitzgerald had in that pencil skirt. Not suprised Obi-Wan sh*gged her.

[OldNick]

Have you ever seen Brassed Off ? A very thinly disguised tale of the closure of Grimethorpe Colliery. The facts about their economic status were ignored by effectively bribing the men to vote for redundancy. ( And whilst Major may have pulled the trigger, Thatcher loaded the gun ).

the sad thing about all the decent miners they let themselves be led by Gormly and Scargills who threatened the normal person in the street who could see they were trying to bring governments down. They were a threat to our democratic society at the time. I have the greatest respect to miners and am saddened we import coal.

I was talking to an engineer last week who did a load of work in the Middle East in the 70,s . He said how the British Steel that was sent is still in the desert even now as it was so poor quality and the Germans came and took the business. All down to bad management and bad practices of the 1970's

[Barry Sanchez]

Industries have opened and closed throughout history - it's tough, but such is life.

 

Go to destroyed towns that were making money and supporting communities, these places now are dead zones literally apocalyptic I kid you not, suicides and anti social behaviour have rocketed in these places.

[ART]

Bonfire night will have a whole new meaning this year. Have never forgiven her for how she treacherously stabbed Ted Heath in the back when he trusted and gave her big break. Her election in 1979 saw our successful family hotel business go ruin. The situation was so dire I decided to leave the UK and return overseas. Have never returned. Margaret Thatcher brought about the ruin of Britain bar the southern counties. May she rest in peace as she certainly has a lot to answer for.

[alpine_saint]

If we are going to talk about Maggie loading guns and Major pulling triggers, lets not forget Heseltine pointed it.

 

Oh, that gets forgotten because he is left-wing. How convenient.

[TopGun]

Thatcher didn't actually close any mines - she withdrew public funding. So, if these collieries were profitable then they would/should have survived anyway. Some were profitable, some weren't.

 

There's no question that many of the mines were shut for political reasons rather than economic ones. Not all of course, some were on the way out anyway.

 

I work in the energy industry and regularly visit Drax Power Station in North Yorks. Although it is partially converting to biomass (all of which will be imported), it still supplies 7% of the UK's electricity demand alone by burning 30,000 tonnes of coal every day on average, mostly imported now. Fully laden coal trains arrive at Drax every 45 minutes 24/7/365 from the ports of Hunterston, Tyne and Immingham where they load up with coal sourced from Australia, South Africa, South America and Eastern Europe.

 

Drax was built on top of the Selby coal seam along with Eggborough and Ferrybridge power stations which contribute another 7% of the nation's insatiable and growing demand for electricity at the present time. Drax Power Station wasn't even completed until 1986 by which time the miner's strike was over and Thatcher was laying policies to shut those remaining mines right next to the power station, in the misguided belief that North Sea gas was going to last for many more years than it will.

 

There is still a lot of coal below the ground there but to reopen many of the mines would cost a fortune as when they were shut they were abandoned and allowed to flood so are now ruined below the surface.

 

With modern mining technology a lot of that untapped coal would still be available at an economic price to dig out had it not been for the politically shortsightedness of the Thatcher government at the time to abandon those mines.

 

We all know about coal contributing to pollution and so on, but with new CCS technology making advances and about to be tested at places like Drax (http://www.whiteroseccs.co.uk), that coal would have been bloody handy now.

Edited 8 April, 2013 by TopGun

[Tokyo-Saint]

Some idiot* is going to throw an egg at the coffin aren't they?

 

 

*no doubt living a in a council house thatcher sold them for cheap.

[pap]

If we are going to talk about Maggie loading guns and Major pulling triggers, lets not forget Heseltine pointed it.

 

Oh, that gets forgotten because he is left-wing. How convenient.

 

Are you talking about Heseltine's leadership contest triggering Thatcher's eventual demise?

 

If so, it's not forgotten.

[badgerx16]

If we are going to talk about Maggie loading guns and Major pulling triggers, lets not forget Heseltine pointed it.

 

Oh, that gets forgotten because he is left-wing. How convenient.

 

Que ???

[Jonnyboy]

Someone will give him a ring I am sure.

 

He will have to have a mobile attitude to get a new job in these tough times!

[sandwichsaint]

Putting to one side how the Thatcher government dealt with the mining situation in terms of the human impact (yes, I know that side of it is important) does anyone believe that the government of the time should have carried on pouring public money into what were failing businesses?

Given the mining industry was losing the country money what was the alternative to withdrawing subsidies for these loss making mines?

 

Serious question. As always, I'm happy to take onboard the 'nasty Tories' accusations but you rarely hear about alternatives.

 

Totally agree, when are we going to stop giving almost limitless amounts of money to the banks, the ultimate failing businesses?

[supersonic]

Totally agree, when are we going to stop giving almost limitless amounts of money to the banks, the ultimate failing businesses?

 

The whole banking crisis is her fault. Is it a coincidence that a financial system that was deregulated has imploded on itself, no? Only "positive" that came from her time as PM was the Falklands, and we got lucky with that one!

[Horley CTFC Saint]

She took my milk! RIP

[Tom8558]

And if it hadn't been for the Falklands then she would have lost the 83 election, and history would have been very different.

 

Manufacturing was 20% of the economy in the early 80s. Its now 8% and our economy was very unbalanced. We had a situation in the early 80s when management was poor, productivity was poor and many unions were irresponsible. Thatcher took on the unions, but killed jobs rather than encourage investment and better practice all round. Heseltine had more understanding of what needed to be done (and still does)

[svetigpung]

I was a student during the 80's. I experienced Thatchers destruction of "society".

 

I am not a lefty , but truelly hated the woman.

 

Its a disgrace that she died in a 5-star hotel. Should of been on the wards she so happily ruined.

[hypochondriac]

Just watching her standing up to that leech scargill and seeing the rest of Europe running scared. Makes me proud.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

And if it hadn't been for the Falklands then she would have lost the 83 election, and history would have been very different.

 

Manufacturing was 20% of the economy in the early 80s. Its now 8% and our economy was very unbalanced. We had a situation in the early 80s when management was poor, productivity was poor and many unions were irresponsible. Thatcher took on the unions, but killed jobs rather than encourage investment and better practice all round. Heseltine had more understanding of what needed to be done (and still does)

 

Your very first line is a debatable proposition.

 

Michael Foot's notorious 83 election manifesto has been described - with some justification - as 'the longest suicide note in history' and while the Tories were indeed unpopular at the time, to state that their defeat was inevitable without the Falklands factor seems to this observer of British politics to be rather more of an opinion than a fact.

 

With the Labour party's inherent divisions and weak leadership exposed to the full glare of a election campaign, I think it quite possible the polls may well have swung back towards the Conservatives even without events in the South Atlantic.

[Chez]

Some idiot* is going to throw an egg at the coffin aren't they?

 

 

*no doubt living a in a council house thatcher sold them for cheap.

*or possibly living in a bedsit because there aren't enough council houses to go round these days. A bit like the coal, those houses wouldn't half be handy now.

[Barry Sanchez]

Just watching her standing up to that leech scargill and seeing the rest of Europe running scared. Makes me proud.

 

Standing up for jobs and communities being ripped apart, Thatcher sold all the silverware and the Country is now ****ed.

[rocknrollman no2]

I think two words sum today up for me....DING, DONG!!

[Kev]

News of her death has now reached the north.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzLJ39g8kWg

[Tokyo-Saint]

*or possibly living in a bedsit because there aren't enough council houses to go round these days. A bit like the coal, those houses wouldn't half be handy now.

 

Or teaching maths in a state funded school.

[John Boy Saint]

Standing up for jobs and communities being ripped apart, Thatcher sold all the silverware and the Country is now ****ed.

Scargill thought he could take on the Government and democracy, and in the process of let many of those funding his Empire building exercise down. Even Kinnock "thanked him for losing him the election".

As for selling the Silverware, having taken over healthy economy Gordon Brown still managed to piddle the bulk of the healthy Gold reserves up the wall.

So it's amazing that one woman can stop this country going down the drain in the 80s, yet even from behind the veil of a Labour Government (who never wasted a penny:ever) she still manages lead this country to the dogs.

 

Woohoo you got a bite!!

[eurosaint]

Whatever anybody thinks of Maggie she was one of the few politicians who said what she'd do and actually did it !

'You get what you see and you see what you get' most certainly applied to her and today's mealy mouthed, lying, cheating, spinning, bullish!tting, manipulating, hypocritical barstewards could learn some lessons on straight talking and decisive action !

I don't expect everyone to agree with her policies or agendas but at the very least she should be respected for being passionate in her quest to improve the state of the country in her time !!

[Tom8558]

Your very first line is a debatable proposition.

 

Michael Foot's notorious 83 election manifesto has been described - with some justification - as 'the longest suicide note in history' and while the Tories were indeed unpopular at the time, to state that their defeat was inevitable without the Falklands factor seems to this observer of British politics to be rather more of an opinion than a fact.

 

With the Labour party's inherent divisions and weak leadership exposed to the full glare of a election campaign, I think it quite possible the polls may well have swung back towards the Conservatives even without events in the South Atlantic.

 

I think that you are forgetting that in the early 80s there was a string of byelection wins for SDP/Liberals. Clearly Labour would not have won the 83 election outright, their manifesto at the time was very left wing and they were led by Michael Foot, but they would have won a lot of seats in the north and Scotland. You're right, it is only a matter of opinion, but my guess is that the 83 election would have led to a hung parliament without the Falklands. Goodness knows what would then have happened, but I am not sure that Thatcher would have survived it. Unfortunately we will never know.

[Barry Sanchez]

Scargill thought he could take on the Government and democracy, and in the process of let many of those funding his Empire building exercise down. Even Kinnock "thanked him for losing him the election".

As for selling the Silverware, having taken over healthy economy Gordon Brown still managed to piddle the bulk of the healthy Gold reserves up the wall.

So it's amazing that one woman can stop this country going down the drain in the 80s, yet even from behind the veil of a Labour Government (who never wasted a penny:ever) she still manages lead this country to the dogs.

 

Woohoo you got a bite!!

Gas undervalued sold, states homes sold and not rebuilt, coal industry destroyed (what a mistake that was) and millions put on the dole, thecsouth was more resilient as it had far less industry so your house price was ok dont worry about your felllow workers.

Mission acomplished by Thatcher.

[Sour Mash]

Gas undervalued sold, states homes sold and not rebuilt, coal industry destroyed (what a mistake that was) and millions put on the dole, thecsouth was more resilient as it had far less industry so your house price was ok dont worry about your felllow workers.

Mission acomplished by Thatcher.

If she was that bad for the country, how come she kept on getting voted back in? Do you really believe Britain was a better country to live in in 1979 or 1990?

[Barry Sanchez]

Whatever anybody thinks of Maggie she was one of the few politicians who said what she'd do and actually did it !

'You get what you see and you see what you get' most certainly applied to her and today's mealy mouthed, lying, cheating, spinning, bullish!tting, manipulating, hypocritical barstewards could learn some lessons on straight talking and decisive action !

I don't expect everyone to agree with her policies or agendas but at the very least she should be respected for being passionate in her quest to improve the state of the country in her time !!

She killed compassion and encouraged a brand of survival of the fittest, a society is judged by how it treats its weakest. Most love her because she gave them cheap houses and in turn they became capitalists.

[buctootim]

Britain was a mess in 1979 and needed Thatcher. She should have stopped after two terms and her legacy would have been kinder, but then thats true of Blair and all PMs. They should all be made to stop after 8 years by statute.

[Barry Sanchez]

If she was that bad for the country, how come she kept on getting voted back in? Do you really believe Britain was a better country to live in in 1979 or 1990?

 

I dont know as I was 4 years old in 1979, I know life was better in south wales, yorkshire, merseyside, lancashire and other parts in 79 as oppossed to 1990, hampshire was ok so ******** to the others?

[Sour Mash]

I dont know as I was 4 years old in 1979, I know life was better in south wales, yorkshire, merseyside, lancashire and other parts in 79 as oppossed to 1990, hampshire was ok so ******** to the others?

So you don't know. Don't let that stop you being angry about it.

[Barry Sanchez]

And what? My parents and reading history bares no relevance? Do you like Hitler or Stalin? Are they ok kind of guys as you dont know them?

[scotty]

Your very first line is a debatable proposition.

 

Michael Foot's notorious 83 election manifesto has been described - with some justification - as 'the longest suicide note in history' and while the Tories were indeed unpopular at the time, to state that their defeat was inevitable without the Falklands factor seems to this observer of British politics to be rather more of an opinion than a fact.

 

With the Labour party's inherent divisions and weak leadership exposed to the full glare of a election campaign, I think it quite possible the polls may well have swung back towards the Conservatives even without events in the South Atlantic.

 

Has it occurred to you that Michael Foot's appointment and subsequent political statements might have been a deliberate move by Labour? They were never going to win that election. Better to have an expendable has-been or a no-hoper lash it up completely so he could carry the can and get sacked, than put a bright hope in to genuinely fight it but still lose. (William Hague was a wasted politician for the tories; if he'd been given a decent shot in an election campaign they actually had a hope of winning he could have been an excellent leader.) I remain convinced that this is still Labour policy. If Ed Miliband is still in charge come the election it can only be because Labour either dont believe they can win the election, or that they don't wish to. My opinion fwiw is that Foot was put there to do exactly the same thing, catch the bullet and take the blame.

[Sour Mash]

And what? My parents and reading history bares no relevance? Do you like Hitler or Stalin? Are they ok kind of guys as you dont know them?

You answered "don't know" to my question.

[hypochondriac]

Whatever anybody thinks of Maggie she was one of the few politicians who said what she'd do and actually did it !

'You get what you see and you see what you get' most certainly applied to her and today's mealy mouthed, lying, cheating, spinning, bullish!tting, manipulating, hypocritical barstewards could learn some lessons on straight talking and decisive action !

I don't expect everyone to agree with her policies or agendas but at the very least she should be respected for being passionate in her quest to improve the state of the country in her time !!

 

Not sure how anyone could disagree with you there.

Edited 8 April, 2013 by hypochondriac

[Saintandy666]

Whatever anybody thinks of Maggie she was one of the few politicians who said what she'd do and actually did it !

'You get what you see and you see what you get' most certainly applied to her and today's mealy mouthed, lying, cheating, spinning, bullish!tting, manipulating, hypocritical barstewards could learn some lessons on straight talking and decisive action !

I don't expect everyone to agree with her policies or agendas but at the very least she should be respected for being passionate in her quest to improve the state of the country in her time !!

 

I think your description of modern day politicians is more than a bit hyperbolic. We are living in a different era to then though, our parties are much closer together and consensus(despite all the bluster) is common.

 

Sticking to what you say is one good quality of a leader, but so is pragmatism. You need to sometimes be able to A. compromise and B. admit you are wrong before its too late. And might I suggest that it was Thatcher's lack of pragmatism that did it in for her in the end, but her relentless conviction that enabled her to smash the many steel reinforced glass ceilings on the way to the top.

[BlakeySFC]

RIP.

 

Someone like Maggie is just what this country could do with right now.

[Big John]

Who's gonna tell Mark?

[Colinjb]

Has it occurred to you that Michael Foot's appointment and subsequent political statements might have been a deliberate move by Labour? They were never going to win that election. Better to have an expendable has-been or a no-hoper lash it up completely so he could carry the can and get sacked, than put a bright hope in to genuinely fight it but still lose. (William Hague was a wasted politician for the tories; if he'd been given a decent shot in an election campaign they actually had a hope of winning he could have been an excellent leader.) I remain convinced that this is still Labour policy. If Ed Miliband is still in charge come the election it can only be because Labour either dont believe they can win the election, or that they don't wish to. My opinion fwiw is that Foot was put there to do exactly the same thing, catch the bullet and take the blame.

 

Personally I hope you are right.

 

Michael Foot's incompetence essentially made Labour unelectable for the next 14 years. Based on their economic policies I would never credit Labour as being pragmatic so that level of idiocy with Ed Milliband's leadership would be excellent.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by Colinjb

[Big John]

Is the wake to be held at the ritz too I wonder?

[Hockey_saint]

You should never ever celebrate someone's death.

 

Maragret Thatcher, for me, was an odd figure. She clearly bought into the Powellist view of political (she used a heck of a lot of his financial ideas and was as much of an anti-German/European as him...and I suppose, if you consider she was the same age as my World War 2 veteran grandfather, that's not surprising)...

 

Really, I'm shocked for 2 reasons, 1. ok, despite a lot of the bad things she is supposed to have done (like attempt to make people stand on their own 2 feet.....maybe in a misplaced way), she's influenced politics like no one else for a very long time and 2. thinking about that Enoch Powell link got me doing some reading into the man and boy! was I ever shocked!! I read through one source and must have thought what Maggie did!! (aside from his stance on immigration which was slightly out of step with all his other views) this man was a political genius! and ironically, on certain things Maggie was even more extreme than he was!

 

anyhow, rip Margret Thatcher.

[Ohio Saint]

She got more airtime on the news channels here than a dead pope. I was quite surprised.

[Hamilton Saint]

One of Thatcher's many cringe-worthy moments - telling the Chilean mass-murdering fascist Augusto Pinochet: "I'm also very much aware that it is you who brought democracy to Chile, you set up a constitution suitable for democracy, you put it into effect, elections were held, and then, in accordance with the result, you stepped down."

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/304516.stm

 

[ironic to see that on this very same day, also, the Chilean authorities have exhumed the body of Pablo Neruda to test for the presence of "toxic materials". It is thought possible that Pinochet may have "arranged" for the great poet's death - having him poisoned.]

 

 

And let's not forget her refusal to support sanctions against the apartheid regime in South Africa. She called her policy "constructive engagement". More "principled" politics from her - standing firm and doing "the right thing"

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/08/south-africa-margaret-thatcher-death

Edited 9 April, 2013 by Hamilton Saint

[BigShadow]

British politics has been completely dull for two decades now. There is no point trying to persuade those who refuse to acknowledge her achievements. Even as an admirer, I know she had many, many faults....but I will say this.....she was bloody marvellous.

 

RIP Margaret...and Thanks.

[dubai_phil]

You should never ever celebrate someone's death.

 

Maragret Thatcher, for me, was an odd figure. She clearly bought into the Powellist view of political (she used a heck of a lot of his financial ideas and was as much of an anti-German/European as him...and I suppose, if you consider she was the same age as my World War 2 veteran grandfather, that's not surprising)...

 

Really, I'm shocked for 2 reasons, 1. ok, despite a lot of the bad things she is supposed to have done (like attempt to make people stand on their own 2 feet.....maybe in a misplaced way), she's influenced politics like no one else for a very long time and 2. thinking about that Enoch Powell link got me doing some reading into the man and boy! was I ever shocked!! I read through one source and must have thought what Maggie did!! (aside from his stance on immigration which was slightly out of step with all his other views) this man was a political genius! and ironically, on certain things Maggie was even more extreme than he was!

 

anyhow, rip Margret Thatcher.

 

This would be a strong topic for a thread on another day. Without a doubt Enoch Powell was a genius, who said the right thing in completely the wrong way and rightly got crucified for it. I was lucky enough to attend an economics lecture by him while at school. Shame he committed political suicide because many of economic his theories could have saved a lot of grief.

 

Anyway. It's kind of cringeworthy watching ignorant bores who were about 3 years old when she was in power quaffing champagne and "celebrating" her death.

 

Kind of sums up the planet really these days

[Barry Sanchez]

Sour Mash

 

Err no I didn't I disliked her policies, you simply are defending her by saying was I alive to comment on her policies, I was but to young to know, my parents were not though, I have read history on it, poor example and quite silly to be honest as by your rule Dan Starkey shouldn't pass judgement on Queen Mary etc etc.

[Barry Sanchez]

Pre Thatcher Britains manufacturing skilled workers = 30%

After Thatcher Britains manufacturing skilled workers = 10%

 

We now buy cheap laboured crap in from overseas and yet millions dont have work here, what do Germany and France do? Subsidise the manufacturing industry and keep their Countries working, what do we do? Bet on the Worlds casino at the whim of a few in an office in London.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[dubai_phil]

Pre Thatcher Britains manufacturing skilled workers = 30%

After Thatcher Britains manufacturing skilled workers = 10%

 

We now buy cheap laboured crap in from overseas and yet millions dont have work here, what do Germany and France do? Subsidise the manufacturing industry and keep their Countries working, what do we do? Bet on the Worlds casino at the whim of a few in an office in London.

 

Yes BS fair point.

 

But please do also remember that for all the Greatness (The QE2, Concord) those Manufacturing Types were also responsible for building The Austin Allegro..........

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

This sort of comment will always detract from any sense in your argument. It's childish and silly and discounts you as a poster worth listening to on serious subjects.

 

Sorry for anyone's family when they die. Thatcher is a part of this country's history. I didn't like her or her politics when she was alive, but those who disliked her should be aware that she meant something to a lot of people and be sensitive to that. At the same time, those who were fond of her should be aware that she had a very negative effect on a lot of people's lives and they are going to express that at this time too. Just post how you feel about it and stop getting so hung up on everybody else's viewpoint, it will never be the same as yours.

 

I'm not saying all left wingers are evil, just talking about George Galloway, Gerry Adams, Ken Livingstone, Joey Barton, Frankie Boyle, in which it's not exactly a ridiculous assertion.

 

I have no problem with people not liking her, she was a very devisive figure. The issue is those celebrating her death. Bit sick IMHO.