Maggie Thatcher has died

[solentstars]

Well respected so far. Couldn't get out of work to watch it so watching on Skygo.

have you got your popcorn to very exciting life your leading

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

have you got your popcorn to very exciting life your leading

 

More exciting than work

[RedWillie]

Love or hate her, this country certainly knows how to put on a ceremony or two .

[Hatch]

beautiful

[saint lard]

beautiful

Agree,her granddaughter is a quite fit.

[Barry Sanchez]

Listening on Radio 4.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

The Bishop of London turns out to be a comedian...

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Thatchers legacy is Mr Whippy ice cream by the sound of things...

[Hatch]

Where is she being buried by the way? or is that top secret to keep the nutters away.

[pap]

Where is she being buried by the way? or is that top secret to keep the nutters away.

 

Cremated.

[Hatch]

Not since Jade Goody died has the country been so united in grief

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Demonstrations subdued because protesters would have had to get out of bed by 9.00am

[KelvinsRightGlove]

FFS, image won't embed.

 

https://twitter.com/richwilliamssky/status/324470328275382273/photo/1

[Barry Sanchez]

Demonstrations subdued because protesters would have had to get out of bed by 9.00am

 

Tee Hee Hee you are funny, few sympathisers showed up as they were fretting about their houses prices and negative equity.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Demonstrations subdued because protesters would have had to get out of bed by 9.00am

 

Hahaha, brilliant

[CB Saint]

@frankieboyle: This guest list is a damning inditement of the inefficiency of the IRA

 

This bloke is a complete twa t. How bad does your talent have to be if you have to resort to making offensive statements to get noticed.

 

(Frankie Bolye, not Trousers)

[Viking Warrior]

a fair few of the protestors were born after thatcher was deposed as PM and another think if they have got nothing to hid , why hide their faces. maybe they belong to rent a mob.

 

Interwsting some are harping on about the pit closures. some being narrow minded. it was a shame the likes of Corby were closed down etc but if you check back in history but having checked out the stats it appears that far more pits were closed when Harold Wilson was Prime Minister that when Thatcher was in no10. The rate of pit closures when Callaghan was PM was also higher.At the time the Wilson government were closing pits The UK needed more coal than we could produce and had started to import it. The closures were purely economic. Under Wilson a mine closed every week.

The reason was the industry was loosing £1.2 million every day. So not every thing is black and white, scargill and go must have forgotten about that

 

the following stats may prove helpful https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...n-1853-to-2011

 

So blame wilson and co as well as thatcher for closing mines. I notice one group of protestors stated thatcher killed the miners during the strikes. well the miners in wales killed a taxi driver taking two miners to work . he died when they threw

[ecuk268]

Where is she being buried by the way? or is that top secret to keep the nutters away.

 

The answers are all here:

 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/the-mash-guide-to-the-final-journey-2013041765817

[Whitey Grandad]

a fair few of the protestors were born after thatcher was deposed as PM and another think if they have got nothing to hid , why hide their faces. maybe they belong to rent a mob.

 

Interwsting some are harping on about the pit closures. some being narrow minded. it was a shame the likes of Corby were closed down etc but if you check back in history but having checked out the stats it appears that far more pits were closed when Harold Wilson was Prime Minister that when Thatcher was in no10. The rate of pit closures when Callaghan was PM was also higher.At the time the Wilson government were closing pits The UK needed more coal than we could produce and had started to import it. The closures were purely economic. Under Wilson a mine closed every week.

The reason was the industry was loosing £1.2 million every day. So not every thing is black and white, scargill and go must have forgotten about that

 

the following stats may prove helpful https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...n-1853-to-2011

 

So blame wilson and co as well as thatcher for closing mines. I notice one group of protestors stated thatcher killed the miners during the strikes. well the miners in wales killed a taxi driver taking two miners to work . he died when they threw

If mining coal was so wonderful why doesn't anybody raise some money and start digging again?

[badgerx16]

If mining coal was so wonderful why doesn't anybody raise some money and start digging again?

 

Without continuing maintenance the shafts flood and become unstable, and it becomes too costly to attempt to clear them.

[Barry Sanchez]

If mining coal was so wonderful why doesn't anybody raise some money and start digging again?

 

Because they flood mines usually after they have taken jobs and livelihoods away.

[Barry Sanchez]

Ahh the solidarity of the South with our Northern brothers.

[badgerx16]

Ahh the solidarity of the South with our Northern brothers.

 

Does that mean I'm showing solidarity with myself ?

[pap]

a fair few of the protestors were born after thatcher was deposed as PM and another think if they have got nothing to hid , why hide their faces. maybe they belong to rent a mob.

 

Interwsting some are harping on about the pit closures. some being narrow minded. it was a shame the likes of Corby were closed down etc but if you check back in history but having checked out the stats it appears that far more pits were closed when Harold Wilson was Prime Minister that when Thatcher was in no10. The rate of pit closures when Callaghan was PM was also higher.At the time the Wilson government were closing pits The UK needed more coal than we could produce and had started to import it. The closures were purely economic. Under Wilson a mine closed every week.

The reason was the industry was loosing £1.2 million every day. So not every thing is black and white, scargill and go must have forgotten about that

 

the following stats may prove helpful https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...n-1853-to-2011

 

So blame wilson and co as well as thatcher for closing mines. I notice one group of protestors stated thatcher killed the miners during the strikes. well the miners in wales killed a taxi driver taking two miners to work . he died when they threw

 

You're not comparing like with like. Harold Wilson presided over a country with more or less full employment. Mining wasn't a particularly well-paid job. When the pits closed, people were able to move into other work, so it wasn't as big as a deal.

 

You've also got to consider the motivation for closing the pits. In many cases, pits were closed simply because they could not get enough local manpower. Thatcher wanted to destroy the unions, and decided to do so by removing the base of their power; the workers who made them up.

 

It irks me when people say that Thatcher closed the mines because they were uneconomical. She closed them for spiteful political reasons and because it was a means to an end.

 

If mining coal was so wonderful why doesn't anybody raise some money and start digging again?

 

Apparently, Thatcher flooded many of the best mines. I am told they are unrecoverable. (big siphon? )

[Barry Sanchez]

Does that mean I'm showing solidarity with myself ?

 

Probably, terrible when solely looking after number 1 is the main aim.

[Barry Sanchez]

Thatcher closed or called for closure as she knew it would draw out Scargill and the miners Unions, they had no choice to bite, they were literally fighting for their lives, Southern people in their bungelows and detached houses in Fawley and Chandlers Ford can not accept this way as they dont know it or dont want to know it, may upset house prices.

[trousers]

It irks me when people say that Thatcher closed the mines because they were uneconomical. She closed them for spiteful political reasons and because it was a means to an end.

 

Pap - genuine question - when you say that with such certainty, are you making a personal judgement based on what you re read/seen/heard etc or is this something that Thatcher explicitly admitted doing later in life?

 

I don't doubt for one moment that ONE of Thatcher's primary motivations was to 'smash the unions' but what is the actual evidence that shows that she needed to close economically viable mines to meet that end?

 

What I'd really like to do is a case study on one of the mines in question and trace it from the date it opened through to the date of closure, analysing the financial accounts throughout that period.

 

I think people on both sides of the debate trot out their largely anecdotal evidence to back up their views but I'd really like to fine tooth comb one example to illustrate the point you make.

 

If it could be proved that Thatcher closed down a mine SOLELY to inflict damage on a union (i.e. it wasn't part of a package of reasons on a case by case basis) then I'd be open to changing my view of Thatcher in this area.

 

Are there any archives I can trawl through that would give me the independent info I'm after?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You're not comparing like with like. Harold Wilson presided over a country with more or less full employment. Mining wasn't a particularly well-paid job. When the pits closed, people were able to move into other work, so it wasn't as big as a deal.

 

You've also got to consider the motivation for closing the pits. In many cases, pits were closed simply because they could not get enough local manpower. Thatcher wanted to destroy the unions, and decided to do so by removing the base of their power; the workers who made them up.

 

It irks me when people say that Thatcher closed the mines because they were uneconomical. She closed them for spiteful political reasons and because it was a means to an end.

 

 

 

Apparently, Thatcher flooded many of the best mines. I am told they are unrecoverable. (big siphon? )

 

She actually liberated the rest of the country from being held to ransom by the Unions. More people benefited than lost and thats why she won three elections.

[badgerx16]

What I'd really like to do is a case study on one of the mines in question and trace it from the date it opened through to the date of closure, analysing the financial accounts throughout that period.

 

 

Are there any archives I can trawl through that would give me the independent info I'm after?

 

Grimethorpe colliery was apparently viable in the long term, and profitable.

 

( EDIT : as posted in #235 :

 

"John T Boyd, a firm of American mining specialists hired by the corporation last year, named Parkside, Trentham, Betws, Grimethorpe and Houghton Main as collieries that were commercially viable" )

Edited 17 April, 2013 by badgerx16

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

One statement I've heard a lot today is "...you weren't born when Thatcher was PM so you don't know what you're on about". Now, I was born in 1986, which is beside the point, but as I wasn't born during WW2 does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion on Hitler?

[badgerx16]

One statement I've heard a lot today is "...you weren't born when Thatcher was PM so you don't know what you're on about". Now, I was born in 1986, which is beside the point, but as I wasn't born during WW2 does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion on Hitler?

 

Yes you are allowed, but you can't say anything nasty about him.

[trousers]

One statement I've heard a lot today is "...you weren't born when Thatcher was PM so you don't know what you're on about". Now, I was born in 1986, which is beside the point, but as I wasn't born during WW2 does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion on Hitler?

 

Of course not. As long as your opinion is based on researched fact rather than jumping on a bandwagon.

 

I've no idea how terrible the Mayans were (or were not) ergo I can't comment on them.

 

I guess what some people are suggesting is that some young people aren't basing their opinion on researched facts but are simply echoing the opinion that makes them fit in with their peers.

[trousers]

Grimethorpe colliery was apparently viable in the long term, and profitable.

 

( EDIT : as posted in #235 :

 

"John T Boyd, a firm of American mining specialists hired by the corporation last year, named Parkside, Trentham, Betws, Grimethorpe and Houghton Main as collieries that were commercially viable" )

 

Ok, thanks - that looks like a good starting point. All I need now are the transcripts from the time that Thatcher ordered the closure of the mines so I can see why she thought otherwise.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

One statement I've heard a lot today is "...you weren't born when Thatcher was PM so you don't know what you're on about". Now, I was born in 1986, which is beside the point, but as I wasn't born during WW2 does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion on Hitler?

 

Ah but you've weren't a 11 year old boy back in the 1974 having to suffer a power cut just as you were settling down to watch Thunderbirds on a Saturday lunchtime.

 

Some wounds just never heal you know ...

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Grimethorpe colliery was apparently viable in the long term, and profitable.

 

( EDIT : as posted in #235 :

 

"John T Boyd, a firm of American mining specialists hired by the corporation last year, named Parkside, Trentham, Betws, Grimethorpe and Houghton Main as collieries that were commercially viable" )

 

Viable I am sure, so was Leyland until the Unions made it impossible to produce good quality, competitively produced cars on time.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Ok, thanks - that looks like a good starting point. All I need now are the transcripts from the time that Thatcher ordered the closure of the mines so I can see why she thought otherwise.

 

The coal industry was an asset until the Unions made it uncompetitive. Normal people would have sat around a table and discussed how we would be best placed to go forward. Sadly not the NUM who thought they could win as they had done in the seventies.

[trousers]

The coal industry was an asset until the Unions made it uncompetitive. Normal people would have sat around a table and discussed how we would be best placed to go forward. Sadly not the NUM who thought they could win as they had done in the seventies.

 

But my problem is, how do I decide whether you're right or whether pap is right?

 

Or maybe you're both right depending on how the situation is interpreted?

 

This is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Is this a matter of opinion or unquestionable fact?

[badgerx16]

Viable I am sure, so was Leyland until the Unions made it impossible to produce good quality, competitively produced cars on time.

 

Contradicted yourself there.

[ecuk268]

Viable I am sure, so was Leyland until the Unions made it impossible to produce good quality, competitively produced cars on time.

 

I would say it was equally the fact that the models they were bringing out were poorly designed, poor quality and didn't appeal to the mass market. Cars like the Allegro, the Maxi, Princess and Ambassador couldn't compete with the Fiesta and Cortina, Vauxhalls and the increasing presence of Renault.

[OldNick]

Ah but you've weren't a 11 year old boy back in the 1974 having to suffer a power cut just as you were settling down to watch Thunderbirds on a Saturday lunchtime.

 

Some wounds just never heal you know ...

Do you remember when Saints were due to play Norwich in the league cup and it was played in a weekday afternoon due to the power cuts and so working people and kids couldn't go ?

[OldNick]

One statement I've heard a lot today is "...you weren't born when Thatcher was PM so you don't know what you're on about". Now, I was born in 1986, which is beside the point, but as I wasn't born during WW2 does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion on Hitler?

i think if you were around when the nations morale was so low you might understand the feelings then

[OldNick]

If the GPO had not been privatised do you think we would have the Internet and modern communications now? In the 70's it took 3months to get a telephone connected ffs

[Viking Warrior]

Pap maybe Im not comparing like for like, but wilson and callaghan did close many mines. The way the media and lefties etc are reporting it was only thatcher who closed the mines. I don't here a peep out of galloway et al re closures of mines under labour .

Also it was to labour administrations that severely cut the armed forces numbers and I do not me blair , brown eras or cameron since.

 

Also I see the socialist workers had placards up claiming thatcher killed Bobby Sands. Sorry he starved himself to death , (Okay it was protest but thatcher did not kill him. It was his choice

[Viking Warrior]

Ecuk268

 

leyland and the days of Red robbo ,

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

But my problem is, how do I decide whether you're right or whether pap is right?

 

Or maybe you're both right depending on how the situation is interpreted?

 

This is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. Is this a matter of opinion or unquestionable fact?

 

If the coal industry was still functioning today it would be full of Polish miners because the miners would not work for the same terms and conditions. Don't get me wrong I recognise the tragedy of the pit villages but in part they were let down by their leaders. So confrontational instead of practical. Wilsoin had full unemployement, so did the Soveiet Union but ultimately you have to create wealth.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Do you remember when Saints were due to play Norwich in the league cup and it was played in a weekday afternoon due to the power cuts and so working people and kids couldn't go ?

 

I obviously must have loved Thunderbirds more than the Saints back then because I've forgotten all about the NUM's impact on Gods Game!

 

I do remember the regular power cuts, how politically polarised this great nation was back then, and me old dad (secretly enjoying methinks) the 3 day week - may he rest in peace.

[OldNick]

I obviously must have loved Thunderbirds more than the Saints back then because I've forgotten all about the NUM's impact on Gods Game!

 

I do remember the regular power cuts, how politically polarised this great nation was back then, and me old dad (secretly enjoying methinks) the 3 day week - may he rest in peace.

You were too young to remember but I wanted to skive off school but a 12 year old kid standing on the near empty Archers road terrace would have been a bit obvious even for the dimmest Bobby, we lost 2-0 and it was hell wondering how we were getting on as I tried to do school work in class

[buctootim]

Coal mining isnt dead in the UK, UK Coal is still going, its just much smaller than it was because the economics of deep mining and competing against China and Eastern Europe just dont work, as with many other industries.

 

The decline of the car industry from c1960 is a whole different story, and largely due to poor management and low investment rather than union militancy. Friends of mine who are now senior managers at Toyota and Ricardo but formerly working at Ford and Austin-Rover talk openly about every time the car companies got an excess of cars they couldnt shift because of weak demand for substandard product they would go and sack a senior shop steward to deliberately provoke a strike. The strike would be prolonged by a refusal to negotiate for a few weeks until the excess inventory was shifted (saving on paying the workers). Once the backlog was cleared the shop steward would be reinstated, the unions would end the strike and could claim the management had caved in.

 

The unions and workers were played and manipulated by a cynical short sighted management who failed to see they solved this weeks immediate problem but in the process gradually destroyed their companies reputation and workers commitment to quality. Its not coincidence Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mini (BMW) etc all have excellent labour relations. The workers are same, its the management which is better.

[Smirking_Saint]

Our coal has a higher sulphuric content, which means although we are sat upon a v v rich deposit of it, it makes it pretty much unuseable due to the refulations these days.

 

I think Carbon capture technology etc can be used but it is generally expensive and coal fire generators are v slow to come online which means they pretty much have to be constantly online.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I was watching Sky Arts In Conversation last night and it had Tony Benn on., It was quite up to date because they were talking about "the cuts" but must have been recorded before Mrs T's death. She was mentioned quite a lot, but nothing about her passing.

 

He was discussing politicians and said there were only 2 types. Signposts and Weather cocks. Signposts have an opinion and ideas, stick to them and point people in the direction they think people should go. If you return in a year, 2 years, 3 years, they are still pointing the same way. Weather cocks swing in the wind, spinning round depending on focus groups and public opinion and polls. He was asked what Mrs T was, "oh undoubtedly a signpost", he replied before adding "although pointing in the wrong direction".

 

I thought it was a really simple way of summing up conviction politicians that hit the nail on the head and also a way of acknowledging that although you could disagree with someone's policies could admire the fact that they had honest and consistent beliefs..