Maggie Thatcher has died

[trousers]

No the ones that didn't.........

 

Ah, cool. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Carry on.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Why did she have to deregulate everything? The state does have a part and a responsibility to play in peoples lives.

 

Nonsense Bazza, the state has too much say in people's lives. Every single problem is addressed "what is the government doing about this". You cant turn on QT without some bird (usually ugly) saying "I cant get a job/cheap child care/afford to travel/afford my tuition fees, what is the Government doing about it". The Government should tax people, provide a safety net, provide certain services i.e. police, fire, doctors, and then get the hell out of people's lives. I do not accept your main assertion that things would be better and cheaper under Government control.

 

Personally, I think the railways would cost us more, maybe not in tickets but via paying more tax, and be a worse service. Same with energy , half the problem is the complicated tariff system, but that should be legislated against. On the whole private individuals are better at running companies than the man in Whitehall. Of course shareholders and CEO's are going to get rich, but the bottom line is what I pay for the services I receive and anyone who thinks are bills would be cheaper and the service better when run by Whitehall is deluded.

[trousers]

This is a very poor example when you consider the technological developments that have occurred since BT was a nationalised institution. The advent of mobile phone technology alone has revolutionised the sector. This has nothing to do with privatisation - more to do with those cunning Japanese and Koreans!

 

Fair point.... I must dig out the "tongue in cheek" emoticon for my posts more often

[solentstars]

We have the 16th fastest internet connection out of 20, we rock we do.

uprise to me ,we never take long term solutions and plan

http://m.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/may/07/broadband-britain-heading-slow-lane

no suprise to me we never take long term solutions and invest and government can make it happen like useing germany style of planning rather than the live for today and load your pockets with cash.

[Barry Sanchez]

Good caveat that there trou, always a sign of bluster.

[trousers]

Good caveat that there trou, always a sign of bluster.

 

Thanks. Its a full time job this talking nonsense malarkey. I don't know how I keep up sometimes.

[solentstars]

This is a very poor example when you consider the technological developments that have occurred since BT was a nationalised institution. The advent of mobile phone technology alone has revolutionised the sector. This has nothing to do with privatisation - more to do with those cunning Japanese and Koreans!

bt was one of the few privatisation i agreed and made sense unfortunately they did not split the giant up into separate company s to create competition and innovation and most phone providers lease bt lines.

[Barry Sanchez]

Nonsense Bazza, the state has too much say in people's lives. Every single problem is addressed "what is the government doing about this". You cant turn on QT without some bird (usually ugly) saying "I cant get a job/cheap child care/afford to travel/afford my tuition fees, what is the Government doing about it". The Government should tax people, provide a safety net, provide certain services i.e. police, fire, doctors, and then get the hell out of people's lives. I do not accept your main assertion that things would be better and cheaper under Government control.

 

Personally, I think the railways would cost us more, maybe not in tickets but via paying more tax, and be a worse service. Same with energy , half the problem is the complicated tariff system, but that should be legislated against. On the whole private individuals are better at running companies than the man in Whitehall. Of course shareholders and CEO's are going to get rich, but the bottom line is what I pay for the services I receive and anyone who thinks are bills would be cheaper and the service better when run by Whitehall is deluded.

 

 

 

So you would sell off a state asset because may possibly make your tax cheaper? Thats the crux of the argument isn't it? And has our tax become lower? Has our national assets improved? Do we subsidise them sometimes more than we used to?

Less state intervention is not the magic bullet for cheaper living and lower taxes, what about social responsibility, I am happy to pay more for a better and equal Country, you it appears are not.

 

Nice one.

What about fairness and equality?

[trousers]

So you would sell off a state asset because may possibly make your tax cheaper? Thats the crux of the argument isn't it? And has our tax become lower? Has our national assets improved? Do we subsidise them sometimes more than we used to?

Less state intervention is not the magic bullet for cheaper living and lower taxes, what about social responsibility, I am happy to pay more for a better and equal Country, you it appears are not.

 

Nice one.

What about fairness and equality?

 

One thing I do admire is your faith in politicians to spend and distribute people's money more wisely than the individual... I wish I had the same faith...

Edited 10 April, 2013 by trousers

[CB Saint]

So you would sell off a state asset because may possibly make your tax cheaper? Thats the crux of the argument isn't it? And has our tax become lower? Has our national assets improved? Do we subsidise them sometimes more than we used to?

Less state intervention is not the magic bullet for cheaper living and lower taxes, what about social responsibility, I am happy to pay more for a better and equal Country, you it appears are not.

 

Nice one.

What about fairness and equality?

 

What you describe is wonderful, and I would gladly welcome, however, time and again the state has proved to be utterly incompetent.

 

I have stated many times that I do not mind paying taxes, I would even accept the 50% band, if the money collected was used wisely. As soon asthe government gets involved in running anything, it goes tits up. The treasury cannot even run a tender for a railway let alone run the actual thing.

 

There are too many low calibre people making too many critical decisions in government. Forget the politicos, I am talking about the civil service, who irrespective of whose in or out, their cosy little existence continues

[Sour Mash]

Go on what services do you use? Saying privatisation has been a massive success is an interesting one so please quote that as well, the McNulty report in short means more closures, thank christ its only a recommendation, a few of my friends happen to work in the transport industry, without subsidy the railway would fold.

No-one has said privatisation is a massive success, not sure why you're making that up? However, there has been a great increase in use by the public and improvements in train performace. My point was in reply to those saying our rail network is so bad compared to Europe, when it clearly isn't. I've travelled on both regularly, there is very little in terms of cost and service between our railway and most major European nations. We do need to reduce the amount of tax payers money that is used by the system. Been a while since I read it, but I don't think McNulty recommends further closures. Going off a ona bit of a tangent now anyway.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

BS, you should move to North Korea. They currently have the kind of technological, left wing, state owned utopia that you crave for.

[shurlock]

BS, you should move to North Korea. They currently have the kind of technological, left wing, state owned utopia that you crave for.

 

Or South Korea.

[Special K]

The sheer ignorance shown regarding mining and energy security is truly stunning.

 

They was cheap coal so we shut our mines, they then put the price up and the coal became expensive but what could we do, we'd shut our mines.

 

The other side of Cannock Chase from me is Rugeley power station. Next to it used to be Hem Heath colliery, one of the profitable super collieries. The coal would go straight to the power station.

 

The privitised generation companies decided they'd import cheaper coal & the colliery, losing its market overnight, was closed. That "cheap" coal, is now expensive coal so instead of British coal, dug from rich seams, next to the power station, we import expensive coal from around the world and wonder why our bills keep going up whilst these private companies make so much profit.

 

We decided on North Sea gas, we were told it was very cheap and would last centuries and had, very handily, just be sold to private business. 25 years later we are told it's running out & we are importing gas from Russia and Nigeria which is hugely expensive.

 

It was short sighted and based on political dogma instead of common sense but she didn't give a fu.ck as mining areas would never vote for her anyway.

 

That's exactly what happened and the "cheap" state subsidised coal from Poland and Germany that was being banked on strangely increased in price when we had no effective mining industry left. Seriously misguided policy that probably started out as a bit of joined up thinking, but ended up being a vendetta against a militant union that was unwilling to embrace any concept that it was outdated and in need of modernisation.

 

But i disagree with some comments on the housing stock. Local councils had, up to the late 70's, shown a shockingly brilliant ability to create the most awful estates and high rise "cheap" accommodation blocks that led to both disasterous collapse at the time (Ronan Point) and serious social issues around these estates with subsequent generations. If they had continued to provide the majority of the housing stock in this country alongside an autoratic planning strategy, inefficient ability to build and reluctance to progress, it is difficult to see that there would have been any benefit to the country as a whole. Strangely enough the Thatcher Conservatives did try to inject some much needed redevelopment in some notoriously deprived areas after the early 80's riots (via UDC's), but this was led via London and with little regard to the needs or local population, so generally failed, except for, it can be argued, the Docklands.

[buctootim]

it's the people and culture that we won't recover from.

 

No, I'm not blaming. I'm stating that there is a culture that has ingrained itself into the country now over years of incompetence.

 

.....if you honestly think there is nothing wrong with the culture of people in this country then you are more deluded than I first thought.....this country is screwed. Yeah, we can probably get out of the financial mess, but we can't get rid of the generation of scoungers that currently defines the country.

 

There is so much wrong with the country, mistakes made through both Conservative and Labour governments that I believe it's spiralling out of control. ...we have a sense of loathing, a penchant for blaming everyone but themselves, an underclass who are better off than those on the minimum wage. We have sold off the family silver due to years of incompetence and waste.

 

Personally, I prefer the bankers and governments to the scum. The bankers and governments don't kill their kids to try to get a bigger council house.

 

Where's this list of good British products from the 70's that we sold to the World? Just a couple of examples would be good.

 

Rolls Royce plane engines were pretty good and widely exported. But apart from that I really am struggling. Corby trouser press?

 

You're such a hysterical twonk - a forum leader, possibly world class, with a healthy dose of hypocrisy towards claiming benefits thrown in. Not only that but you dont even have a grasp of facts, just random kneee jerk exclamations based on 29.73% of FA. Tourettes without the swearing. Please, I beg you, threaten to leave the UK like Paul Daniels and Phil Collins.

 

Britain is still the 6th largest manufacturer in the world by value added, ahead of places like France, South Korea, Brazil, India, Russia. Not bad when there are 200 countries and we only have the 22nd biggest population. But because you dont see many of the products in the shops then they dont exist to you. Clue, stuff in shops is normally low value commodity, not the area of business best to be in in a high wage economy.

 

World class products? Aeronautics (engines, wings and the brains of planes), pharmaceuticals (inc three of the worlds best selling drugs), medical equipment, oil & gas technology, luxury yachts.

[Barry Sanchez]

One thing I do admire is your faith in politicians to spend and distribute people's money more wisely than the individual... I wish I had the same faith...

 

Hugo Chavez.

[shurlock]

Written a decade ago but still one of the best and most balanced pieces on privatisation.

 

http://www.johnkay.com/2002/06/01/twenty-years-of-privatisation

[Barry Sanchez]

You're such a hysterical twonk - a forum leader, possibly world class, with a healthy dose of hypocrisy towards claiming benefits thrown in. Not only that but you dont even have a grasp of facts, just random kneee jerk exclamations based on 29.73% of FA. Tourettes without the swearing. Please, I beg you, threaten to leave the UK like Paul Daniels and Phil Collins.

 

Britain is still the 6th largest manufacturer in the world by value added, ahead of places like France, South Korea, Brazil, India, Russia. Not bad when there are 200 countries and we only have the 22nd biggest population. But because you dont see many of the products in the shops then they dont exist to you. Clue, stuff in shops is normally low value commodity, not the area of business best to be in in a high wage economy.

 

World class products? Aeronautics (engines, wings and the brains of planes), pharmaceuticals (inc three of the worlds best selling drugs), medical equipment, oil & gas technology, luxury yachts.

 

How many does that employ and how bombs do we sell to Countries of suspect intentions?

[buctootim]

How am I an uber blamer?

 

And it's not the financial crisis we won't recover from, it's the people and culture that we won't recover from.

 

No, I'm not blaming. I'm stating that there is a culture that has ingrained itself into the country now over years of incompetence.

 

You can sit there and be pedantic over what I have said, but if you honestly think there is nothing wrong with the culture of people in this country then you are more deluded than I first thought.

 

The point stands, society in this country is screwed. Yeah, we can probably get out of the financial mess, but we can't get rid of the generation of scoungers that currently defines the country.

 

And that's up to you. Personally, I'm not a fan of either the UK state or the UK people. There is so much wrong with the country, mistakes made through both Conservative and Labour governments that I believe it's spiralling out of control. At least when we were poor in the 50's, we had a sense of community. Now we have a sense of loathing, a penchant for blaming everyone but themselves, an underclass who are better off than those on the minimum wage. We have sold off the family silver due to years of incompetence and waste.

 

Yet as far as I can see there is no plausible way out of this, left or right.

 

I'm not a fan of the UK state. I'm not a fan of hardly any facets of the UK nowadays. However, I am a fan of the people less.

 

Personally, I prefer the bankers and governments to the scum. The bankers and governments don't kill their kids to try to get a bigger council house.

 

Where's this list of good British products from the 70's that we sold to the World? Just a couple of examples would be good.

 

Rolls Royce plane engines were pretty good and widely exported. But apart from that I really am struggling. Corby trouser press?

 

How many does that employ and how bombs do we sell to Countries of suspect intentions?

 

Its true we sell a lot of arms too. A couple of years ago we were the worlds largest exporter, bigger even than the US.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

You're such a hysterical twonk - a forum leader, possibly world class, with a healthy dose of hypocrisy towards claiming benefits thrown in. Not only that but you dont even have a grasp of facts, just random kneee jerk exclamations based on 29.73% of FA. Tourettes without the swearing. Please, I beg you, threaten to leave the UK like Paul Daniels and Phil Collins.

 

Britain is still the 6th largest manufacturer in the world by value added, ahead of places like France, South Korea, Brazil, India, Russia. Not bad when there are 200 countries and we only have the 22nd biggest population. But because you dont see many of the products in the shops then they dont exist to you. Clue, stuff in shops is normally low value commodity, not the area of business best to be in in a high wage economy.

 

World class products? Aeronautics (engines, wings and the brains of planes), pharmaceuticals (inc three of the worlds best selling drugs), medical equipment, oil & gas technology, luxury yachts.

 

Wow, glad you've read the thread properly.

 

Firstly, I didn't say that we are poor at manufacturing now, quite the opposite, we are excellent at highly technical manufacturing. My point was we were bad in the 70's, but hey, don't worry, no need to read the thread properly when you can come on here, spout rubbish and make an idiot of yourself. Perhaps I could ask you to give me examples of good British products from the 70's, as no-one else has.

 

Secondly, calm down dear, it might never happen.

[Barry Sanchez]

Why did you miss that out? And how many does this employ, this high earning economy?

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

How many does that employ and how bombs do we sell to Countries of suspect intentions?

 

How's your list coming along?

[Barry Sanchez]

Typical tories not reading the small print.......

[Barry Sanchez]

How's your list coming along?

 

What list I gave you examples, you simply ignored them.

[buctootim]

Wow, glad you've read the thread properly.

 

Firstly, I didn't say that we are poor at manufacturing now, quite the opposite, we are excellent at highly technical manufacturing. My point was we were bad in the 70's, but hey, don't worry, no need to read the thread properly when you can come on here, spout rubbish and make an idiot of yourself. Perhaps I could ask you to give me examples of good British products from the 70's, as no-one else has.

 

Secondly, calm down dear, it might never happen.

 

Wow, another DPS immediate climb down and denial that "I never said them things".

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Typical tories not reading the small print.......

 

Who are you responding to?

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

What list I gave you examples, you simply ignored them.

 

Which one, the one where the companies were on their knees in the 70's.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Wow, another DPS immediate climb down and denial that "I never said them things".

 

Show me where I said we are bad at manufacturing now. My points were about the 70's.

 

If you can I'll be very, very surprised.

 

Chop, chop.

[Barry Sanchez]

Yes the ones now owned by yanks, indians and germans.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Yes the ones now owned by yanks, indians and germans.

 

Yes, and are now successful, unlike in the 70's when owned by British firms.

 

How has that helped your point in any way?

[Barry Sanchez]

BS, you should move to North Korea. They currently have the kind of technological, left wing, state owned utopia that you crave for.

 

Why would I move there, in 10 years they will have fallen and the vutures will have set in.

[saintfully]

One thing I do admire is your faith in politicians to spend and distribute people's money more wisely than the individual... I wish I had the same faith...

 

I look forward to you setting up and running your own personal emergency services. Or, you could rely on private hospitals, paramedics, police, army etc. ?

 

In fact, maybe its just true that there are just some things the market isn't very good at supplying. These tend to be the things that we all need and use and that society (there, I said it) can't do without to function. Telecoms - yeah fine, privatise (although I object to the monoploy BT has on line-rental), but water? Energy (heating)? I accept inefficiencies in order to guarantee supply to all. Its not as though the private sector is immune from wastage is it.... that remains a facile argument.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

I look forward to you setting up and running your own personal emergency services. Or, you could rely on private hospitals, paramedics, police, army etc. ?

 

In fact, maybe its just true that there are just some things the market isn't very good at supplying. These tend to be the things that we all need and use and that society (there, I said it) can't do without to function. Telecoms - yeah fine, privatise (although I object to the monoploy BT has on line-rental), but water? Energy (heating)? I accept inefficiencies in order to guarantee supply to all. Its not as though the private sector is immune from wastage is it.... that remains a facile argument.

 

Certainly privatisation isn't for every industry, and for me the NHS is something we need to keep in it's current form, not the pseudo-bastardised privatised system that Lansbury wanted.

 

However, for other industries there is no doubt that it is appropriate.

[Barry Sanchez]

Yes, and are now successful, unlike in the 70's when owned by British firms.

 

How has that helped your point in any way?

 

Sorry when did we sell these companies?

[pap]

Certainly privatisation isn't for every industry, and for me the NHS is something we need to keep in it's current form, not the pseudo-bastardised privatised system that Lansbury wanted.

 

However, for other industries there is no doubt that it is appropriate.

 

It's still happening.

 

My guess is that it'll be a tremendous f**k-up and the private sector will rush in and be depicted as saviours, just as planned

[Barry Sanchez]

Certainly privatisation isn't for every industry, and for me the NHS is something we need to keep in it's current form, not the pseudo-bastardised privatised system that Lansbury wanted.

 

However, for other industries there is no doubt that it is appropriate.

 

But there is doubt, why sell something thats not yours to sell.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Certainly privatisation isn't for every industry, and for me the NHS is something we need to keep in it's current form, not the pseudo-bastardised privatised system that Lansbury wanted.

 

However, for other industries there is no doubt that it is appropriate.

 

Seeing as Germany seems to be everyone's model country on this thread, particularly Bazza's, perhaps we could model our health service on theirs. Oh sorry, forgot, ours is the "envy of the world".

[Barry Sanchez]

I always thought the private sector would rush in and take the slack left by the mass unemployment made by this goverment in the public sector, knights in shining armour they are not and neither are the tories. Im alright jack snides.

[LGTL]

It's still happening.

 

My guess is that it'll be a tremendous f**k-up and the private sector will rush in and be depicted as saviours, just as planned

 

Like in education too then. Make OFSTED "fail" as many schools as they can, convert them to sponsored academies/free schools and wouldn't you know it, they are suddenly performing brilliantly again....

 

Call me a cynic.

[Barry Sanchez]

Seeing as Germany seems to be everyone's model country on this thread, particularly Bazza's, perhaps we could model our health service on theirs. Oh sorry, forgot, ours is the "envy of the world".

 

Germanys is not as good but still excellent, their economy overall though is more varied and kicks the **** out of ours.

[pap]

Seeing as Germany seems to be everyone's model country on this thread, particularly Bazza's, perhaps we could model our health service on theirs. Oh sorry, forgot, ours is the "envy of the world".

 

Thatcher wouldn't have been a fan of all those Eastern Europeans you employ.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/margaret-thatcher-accused-racist-views

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

It's still happening.

 

My guess is that it'll be a tremendous f**k-up and the private sector will rush in and be depicted as saviours, just as planned

 

Honestly, I am yet to find someone, left, right, black, white etc outside of the Tory party that thinks this is a good idea.

 

Will be a massive cluster****.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

But there is doubt, why sell something thats not yours to sell.

 

It depends on how you view the ownership of it, and also how you view the Government rights to privatised industry (whether as 'owner' of the country for the duration of the term, or as a custodian).

[Barry Sanchez]

Honestly, I am yet to find someone, left, right, black, white etc outside of the Tory party that thinks this is a good idea.

 

Will be a massive cluster****.

 

No doubt some Quinton or Giles will give it a go though.

[Barry Sanchez]

It depends on how you view the ownership of it, and also how you view the Government rights to privatised industry (whether as 'owner' of the country for the duration of the term, or as a custodian).

 

A custodian obviously, they obviously dont have the same view of what is everybody's.

[bridge too far]

It's still happening.

 

My guess is that it'll be a tremendous f**k-up and the private sector will rush in and be depicted as saviours, just as planned

 

Why do you suppose the NHS is getting such a bad press at the moment? As someone has pointed out, it's happening with schools too.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Thatcher wouldn't have been a fan of all those Eastern Europeans you employ.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/margaret-thatcher-accused-racist-views

 

To be fair there's quite a few like that, who said "British jobs for British workers", maybe Enoch Powell, Nick Griffin, can't remember now, but I'm sure it was some rabid right winger.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Germanys is not as good but still excellent, their economy overall though is more varied and kicks the **** out of ours.

 

But why is that?

[Barry Sanchez]

But why is that?

 

Sorry but why is what?

[pap]

Honestly, I am yet to find someone, left, right, black, white etc outside of the Tory party that thinks this is a good idea.

 

Will be a massive cluster****.

 

It will go to plan. They just haven't told you the plan.

 

If you haven't noticed, all this tub-thumping and demonisation of the poor business is about one thing only; keeping moronic victims distracted while more of the family silver is spirited out of the back door. You're not worried about the NHS, you're worried about the benefit culture and all these people having a rip-roaring (translation: hiding from loan sharks) time at the tax-payer's expense!

 

See, if the plan is to get the NHS private without considering what comes afterward ( does this sound at all familiar? ), then everything is going swimmingly.

 

It's a needless reorganisation - it will fail, on purpose - and the objective will be achieved.

 

btw, they have never shirked from this plan. Even when they were having "conversations", they were fitting up big health to take over services.