Maggie Thatcher has died

[View From The Top]

Yep, as is often the case someone's greatest strengths can also be their undoing. You could argue that her single mindedness was needed in spades early on to shake up the establishment and quash the unions but later she should have built more consensus and operated with less dogma and more pragmatism.

 

Word.

[Barry Sanchez]

Your enthusiasm for the failed and defeated Britain of the 1970's can only be explained by the fact you're too young to have actually experienced that grim place at first hand. As for the desirability of the long term state subsidy of industry, I must ask you again; where is the money coming from and why do you imagine that government is especially skilled in running business's anyway?

 

It is surely the business of government to create a environment where business is free to flourish. There are some exceptions, but propping up failing concerns that should probably be left to sink or swim on merit has be shown time and time again to be the height of folly. Better surly to concentrate our efforts on encouraging the new industries that any dynamic economy must constantly create rather than keeping the moribund old ones in a near death state via a public money cash drip.

 

Re the railways, you seem to be simultaneously arguing both for and against state subsidy, and in any case those old enough to have experienced the days of BR will confirm that it was a rotten second rate service that had become little more than a national joke. Yes a mix of public/private money is now pouring into the railways - but unlike the past it is today largely being used to invest in the infrastructure of the system rather than giving a militant and heavily unionized workforce a 15% pay rise every year. As for the motor industry, well the record shows that we actually produce rather more (and massively better) cars now than we did back in the dark days of the 1970's. This is due in large part to the fact that MT actively encouraged the main Japanese motor manufacturers to set up plants here.

 

You call for us to follow the German/French economic model as if both where identical when two more different business cultures it would be hard to imagine. While the French do follow a state subsidy model I presume you approve of - and are currently paying the price for that - the Germans on the other hand hardly need to directly subsidize BMW, Mercedes Benz, or Audi anymore because these business are massively successful of course. A success built on foundations of a educated workforce, engineering excellence, free enterprise, and good industrial relations - ie everything 1970's Britain was not about.

 

A unrealistic sense of nostalgia for the past is fault more commonly associated with the old, but judging from your contributions to this thread it seems the condition is in danger of spreading down the age spectrum.

 

I read the 1st bit and feel compelled to comment on allow to fail, why didn't we allow the banks to fail? Surely thats free enterprise?

[macca155]

I lived through and suffered the Thatcher years. Her government's policies cost me thousands and I'm still paying. She sold off the country's assetts, wasted oil money on keeping employment high to break the unions and set people against one another. Just look at this bebate its dtill happening.

 

Her rule changed this country no doubt about that. Yes industry needed modernising and unions controlling but not at the cost of the country's soul.

 

Her policies of vengence and discord destroyed communities. She transformed this country from a focus on industry to service. Finance and banking ruled for the torys and that really turned out well didn't it.

 

She was a strong leader and I respect that. Her profile was much stronger abroad as they bought into the caricature but i think history will judge her harshly.

 

She died a frail old lady muffled and kept at an embarrassed distance by her own party. That says it all and she deserved better. Only Gordon Brown had the decency to put her back in the public eye.

 

No death should be celebrated but her passing may help heal old wounds.

 

I hated what she stood for on the eighties but I've mellowed a little when I compare her to the current crop of spineless opportunists.

 

Alan

[Viking Warrior]

Some good points made by trousers and Jack Frost . I remember the days before thatcher . Wilson Callaghan and Heath . I recollect mines and other industries being closed. Look at Leyland and other uk industries how much money was pumped into them to keep them propped up . There was an underlying militancy amongst some unions remember red ted for Leyland . They were not pleasant periods at the time. It's easy to

Look back in hindsight to say that policy was wrong but at the time those in gov looked to steer the country through difficult times then . I'm wondering how many are protesting and cheering an old ladies death were actually born in the thatcher years or were they born after the thatcher years . When Blair dies I will not grieve for him but I will pay my respects not despise him . I don't like him and I didn't like his policy's but he was democratically elected he did some good but something's not do good . But I will not say he should burn hell like some of stated .

[Barry Sanchez]

Bad.

 

How often are your trains delayed on average these days? Mine are probably on time c.95% of the time. That figure would have been nearer 75% in "the old days" (anecdotal memory rather than statistical)

A tyoical ignorant tactic is to say it was worse under BR and great now, no one is saying it was great then, what was needed was massive subsidy as every other nation does with their trains, now we have ned railways and the french taking out their profits from subsidy and using it to subsidise their national services.

BR was bad but ours with low to criminal subsidy, the current is better but costs an awful lot more and you can forget having a connection waiting for you if your train is delayed, customer service is sacrificed for performance.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Barry Sanchez]

Some good points made by trousers and Jack Frost . I remember the days before thatcher . Wilson Callaghan and Heath . I recollect mines and other industries being closed. Look at Leyland and other uk industries how much money was pumped into them to keep them propped up . There was an underlying militancy amongst some unions remember red ted for Leyland . They were not pleasant periods at the time. It's easy to

Look back in hindsight to say that policy was wrong but at the time those in gov looked to steer the country through difficult times then . I'm wondering how many are protesting and cheering an old ladies death were actually born in the thatcher years or were they born after the thatcher years . When Blair dies I will not grieve for him but I will pay my respects not despise him . I don't like him and I didn't like his policy's but he was democratically elected he did some good but something's not do good . But I will not say he should burn hell like some of stated .

They are the children from her reign, they have every right to question her policies.

[trousers]

A tyoical ignorant tactic is to say it was worse under BR and great now

 

My ignorance is legendary - well done for spotting it. I manage to hoodwink most people into thinking I'm a genius.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by trousers

[Barry Sanchez]

My ignorance is legendary - well done for spotting it. I manage to hoodwink most people into thinking I'm a genius.

 

Cool.

[Barry Sanchez]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/neil-clark/privatised-railway-why-we-cant-afford-a-priv_b_1679214.html

[scotty]

Sorry but that's absolute rubbish, I'm afraid it really was the case.

 

Coal Mines were closing all over the place as early as the 1960s, the last coal mine closed in the Black Country (one of the most industrialised parts of the country) in 1968, 11 years before Thatcher came to power. The heavy industries had been losing a lot of money for decades before Thatcher came in and were very inefficient, partly due to the strikes that crippled the country in the 70s hence why Maggie had to wage war against them.

 

Thats the point. The mines were not all lossmakers, the unions needed sorting out but she did the whole "close the mines" thing as a political move, and we are suffering for that even now. She never knew when to stop; any decision she made was the right one, witness the poll tax when even her own supporters booted her out in the night of the long knives.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

My ignorance is legendary - well done for spotting it. I manage to hoodwink most people into thinking I'm a genius.

 

 

eeerrrr, how can I put this.....

[Barry Sanchez]

Thats the point. The mines were not all lossmakers, the unions needed sorting out but she did the whole "close the mines" thing as a political move, and we are suffering for that even now. She never knew when to stop; any decision she made was the right one, witness the poll tax when even her own supporters booted her out in the night of the long knives.

 

Such was the distaste of the poll tax she has ****ed it royally up for any scot tory up there, tory free zone.

[trousers]

Such was the distaste of the poll tax she has ****ed it royally up for any scot tory up there, tory free zone.

 

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2009/05/david-torrance-debunking-the-myths-about-margaret-thatcher-and-scotland.html

 

Myth Number Three - Margaret Thatcher set out to "test" the Poll Tax on Scotland

 

Another myth, that Mrs Thatcher ‘tested’ the Poll Tax on Scotland is perhaps the most corrosive and persistent of them all. The chronology of the Poll Tax, however, offers no evidence for this oft-quoted claim. Ministers were already working on alternatives to the Rates – not exactly the fairest form of local taxation itself – when Scotland endured a rather traumatic revaluation in early 1985. The resulting political outcry that generated did spur Mrs Thatcher on, but her intention was always to phase in the Poll Tax on a Great Britain-wide basis over several years. Crucially, those who had her ear on Scottish issues – George Younger, Jim Goold, the Scottish Tory Chairman, and Willie Whitelaw – all thought differently and persuaded her to let the Scottish Office legislate early and separately ahead of the 1987 general election. She only agreed to this reluctantly and her bitterness is clear from her memoirs. ‘If, as the Scots subsequently claimed, they were guinea pigs for a great experiment in local government finance’, she wrote in The Downing Street Years, ‘they were the most vociferous and influential guinea pigs which the world has ever seen.’

 

Indeed, therein lay an obvious retort to the ‘guinea pig’ argument: why, having ‘tested’ the Poll Tax unsuccessfully in Scotland was it then applied to England and Wales with no major changes? So, a badly thought out and unfair tax? Certainly; A tax maliciously ‘tested’ on Scotland? Certainly not.

[Barry Sanchez]

Where did I say Scotland were a guinea pigs? You are getting a little lost and ahead of yourself there, they have never recovered from the implementation of the community charge, she did unite scotland though such was knowledge of the north.......

[Wade Garrett]

Blimey, if the current nonsense of a rail network is better than BR, what the hell was BR like? We still have the worst train network in pretty much the whole of western europe.

 

The rail service was crap. Following privatisation, it is still crap, but also very expensive.

[John Boy Saint]

Such was the distaste of the poll tax she has ****ed it royally up for any scot tory up there, tory free zone.

Just smoothing the way for Independence.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Dr Beeching ****ed up the railways more than Thatcher ever did. And the botched privatisation was handled by the major government and remember that labour promised to renationalise them, how did that work out?

 

The poll tax is an interesting one, remember at the time most people were complaining about the rates and they were considered unfair and in need of reform. Rather than duck the issue as countless people had done before, she attacked the issue head on . Nowadays the jokers running all 3 parties would kick it into the long grass or find out what focus groups think rather than show real leadership. The much maligned poll tax had some attractions and still does imo. It was not some sort of spitful policy designed to trample on the jocks or the poor but a serious, if misguided attempt to reform an unfair system. Recently we had 4 working adults living in our house, my neighbour had him and his mrs. Is it fair that we paid the same for local services? If you want local taxes to reflect peoples ability to pay, is property value the best way of doing do? I'm not convinced it is . Personally I prefer empowering councils to decide their own method, it maybe a local income tax, maybe property based or maybe a set rate paid by every working adult. Whatever it is it should a local decision endorsed by the local voters. The worst thing about the poll tax was that it shut down the debate on how we finance local services as nobody will touch it with a barge pole.

[Barry Sanchez]

The rail service was crap. Following privatisation, it is still crap, but also very expensive.

 

That pretty much sums it up, 5.2 more expensive, people as I say forget they they used to own a crap service now they dont and pay an awful lot more for the privilege, as long as the public dont APPEAR to pay for it its all good, as I say ignorance is bliss.

Lets start paying on all motorways, they dont make any money, its simply concrete.

[Barry Sanchez]

Dr Beeching ****ed up the railways more than Thatcher ever did. And the botched privatisation was handled by the major government and remember that labour promised to renationalise them, how did that work out?

 

The poll tax is an interesting one, remember at the time most people were complaining about the rates and they were considered unfair and in need of reform. Rather than duck the issue as countless people had done before, she attacked the issue head on . Nowadays the jokers running all 3 parties would kick it into the long grass or find out what focus groups think rather than show real leadership. The much maligned poll tax had some attractions and still does imo. It was not some sort of spitful policy designed to trample on the jocks or the poor but a serious, if misguided attempt to reform an unfair system. Recently we had 4 working adults living in our house, my neighbour had him and his mrs. Is it fair that we paid the same for local services? If you want local taxes to reflect peoples ability to pay, is property value the best way of doing do? I'm not convinced it is . Personally I prefer empowering councils to decide their own method, it maybe a local income tax, maybe property based or maybe a set rate paid by every working adult. Whatever it is it should a local decision endorsed by the local voters. The worst thing about the poll tax was that it shut down the debate on how we finance local services as nobody will touch it with a barge pole.

 

Thatcher gave the go ahead not Major, he oversaw it.

I have never forgiven Labour for that either so fairs fair, no political party is the friend of the railway, we are as a antion backward and so wrong on this that we view the railway as a business as opposed to an essential componet of our Country that has to be paid for by the Government, we are Americans in that sense (even they though when they close a track can not build on it) where we would rather get in a car and wait for hours on our own.

 

It does say an awful lot about how our Country works or does not too be honest.

 

And back to your first point concerning Beeching, he did awful things concerning the railways, naive things but the privatisation was not something he did (or was allowed to go) it was the tories (lets sell some more of the silver and make our chums rich and throw a bone to the poor man), I know of 2 people who became millionaires overnight in 1995 due to the breakup of the railway, insider trading? You betcha.

[trousers]

That pretty much sums it up, 5.2 more expensive

Source?

[Barry Sanchez]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/22/will-hutton-rail-privatisation-disastrous

http://www.adamsmith.org/sites/default/files/images/uploads/publications/railway.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21056703

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/10/rail-privatisation-failed-nhs

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/british-train-fares-are-highest-in-world-but-london-slips-down-priciest-cities-list-1774544.html

 

Also I posted last the recent Huffington Post article.

[Barry Sanchez]

I will add the 5.2 figure is an estimate I have seen some are as low as 2.5 and some are quite a bit higher, whatever figure it is is that it costs far too much and the taxpayer is not getting value for money, the car driving M25 train hater is paying more for his traffice jam than ever before and yet no one is telling him this, everybody is getting a bad deal.

 

As I say ignorance is bliss.

[trousers]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/22/will-hutton-rail-privatisation-disastrous

http://www.adamsmith.org/sites/default/files/images/uploads/publications/railway.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21056703

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/10/rail-privatisation-failed-nhs

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/british-train-fares-are-highest-in-world-but-london-slips-down-priciest-cities-list-1774544.html

 

Also I posted last the recent Huffington Post article.

 

Thanks - couldn't see any reference on there to train fares being "5.2 times more expensive now" - maybe cut and paste the relative paragraph from the relevant article that quotes that figure for expediency.

 

Anyhow, it's all very well plucking an "increased by" figure out of the air but in doing so you have to make a whopping assumption that the rate of fare increase under government control wouldn't have increased too.

 

Indeed, this is articulated in the BBC article you kindly posted above:

 

But Smith believes privatisation has delivered a more intelligent fare structure.

 

People might assume that fares would have gone up slower under British Rail, says Smith. But for commuters, the reverse might have been true as there was no capping of fares under BR, he points out.

 

On longer distance routes, he says, price variation has allowed the rail companies to compete with both coach companies on the bargain advance tickets and airlines for the expensive peak time seats.

 

"In practice it's been a success. It's been one of the factors at getting more people travelling longer distance by rail while at the same time raising more revenue. So in some ways privatisation has been a good thing."

 

There is more to a railway's success than just low fares. Other measures are safety, punctuality, comfort, frequency of service, convenience and simplicity. On many of these, the privatised railways have a good record.

[trousers]

I will add the 5.2 figure is an estimate I have seen some are as low as 2.5 and some are quite a bit higher, whatever figure it is is that it costs far too much and the taxpayer is not getting value for money, the car driving M25 train hater is paying more for his traffice jam than ever before and yet no one is telling him this, everybody is getting a bad deal.

 

As I say ignorance is bliss.

 

I find ignorance very calming. You should try it sometime.

[Barry Sanchez]

I find ignorance very calming

 

Are you as calm as a frozen lake?

[trousers]

Are you as calm as a frozen lake?

More so.

[trousers]

[Barry Sanchez]

Thanks - couldn't see any reference on there to train fares being "5.2 times more expensive now" - maybe cut and paste the relative paragraph from the relevant article that quotes that figure for expediency.

 

Anyhow, it's all very well plucking an "increased by" figure out of the air but in doing so you have to make a whopping assumption that the rate of fare increase under government control wouldn't have increased too.

 

Indeed, this is articulated in the BBC article you kindly posted above:

 

So your basis of argument is saying it may of gone up the same rate if we were still in the public's hands, thats a classic, a specualtion defensive argument.

The figures are in there if you care to read and your example starts with a but which means you left out the meatier bit to try and justofy your poor example, what that guy is saying is ok on lines where there are competition, what he does not say is

Assured cheap fare by booking ahead?

What flexibilty do these cheap fares have?

How much is an annual compared to 20 years ago to Waterloo? It used to be £2888,00 from Winchester in 1999 I know that much.

 

Poor example old bean, you are arguing that cheaper fares are available (they are) but they are not available to all and you can only go at times that are not usually peak or on a slower train.

 

 

Carry on.

[Barry Sanchez]

I imagine Trousers on a friday night (beige polyester trousers and green shirt) with his wife inviting freinds around for a prawn cocktail and a blue nun and discussing how much they have made on their house and how they look forward to driving to Spain for the holidays....................

[trousers]

I imagine Trousers on a friday night (beige polyester trousers and green shirt) with his wife inviting freinds around for a prawn cocktail and a blue nun and discussing how much they have made on their house and how they look forward to driving to Spain for the holidays....................

 

Spookily accurate...................

[trousers]

So your basis of argument is saying it may of gone up the same rate if we were still in the public's hands, thats a classic, a specualtion defensive argument.

 

And speculating that they might not have gone up at the same rate isn't?

 

The figures are in there if you care to read and your example starts with a but which means you left out the meatier bit to try and justofy your poor example, what that guy is saying is ok on lines where there are competition, what he does not say is

Assured cheap fare by booking ahead?

What flexibilty do these cheap fares have?

 

'My' poor example? I was quoting the article you provided old bean. Do let me know which bits of the articles you post as 'evidence' that I'm allowed to reference.

 

Good game.

Edited 10 April, 2013 by trousers

[Barry Sanchez]

And speculating that they might not have gone up at the same rate isn't?

 

 

 

'My' poor example? I was quoting the article you provided old bean. Do let me know which bits of the articles you post as 'evidence' that I'm allowed to reference.

 

Good game.

 

No you were butchering and only putting in the bits you wanted to try and justify your weak argument.

Not good sport at all.

[CB Saint]

On the train issue - £10 ew Southampton to Waterloo if you buy an annual season ticket doesn't seem so bad especially compare to the £70 for return ticket if bought on the day. No one complains about expensive airline tickets if you expect to fly same day, why should rail travel be difference. How may rail trip are not pre planned anyway?

[Barry Sanchez]

On the train issue - £10 ew Southampton to Waterloo if you buy an annual season ticket doesn't seem so bad especially compare to the £70 for return ticket if bought on the day. No one complains about expensive airline tickets if you expect to fly same day, why should rail travel be difference. How may rail trip are not pre planned anyway?

About 60%.

[pap]

Fk me. 10 million quid funeral.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-funeral-growing-anger-1821652

 

"Is there a Denny's near here?"

[CB Saint]

Fk me. 10 million quid funeral.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-funeral-growing-anger-1821652

 

"Is there a Denny's near here?"

 

 

This really has all the hallmarks of a Tory own goal

[trousers]

No you were butchering and only putting in the bits you wanted to try and justify your weak argument.

Not good sport at all.

 

I enjoyed it. But, there again I'm an ignorant selfish bastard so my misplaced delight is understandable I suppose.

[trousers]

Fk me. 10 million quid funeral.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-funeral-growing-anger-1821652

 

"Is there a Denny's near here?"

 

A drop in the ocean compared to the money she saved the country.

 

[awaits backlash]

[trousers]

About 60%.

 

Source?

[trousers]

Left wing tax payers complaining about a government wasting their taxes.... that's made my day that has....

[Barry Sanchez]

On the train issue - £10 ew Southampton to Waterloo if you buy an annual season ticket doesn't seem so bad especially compare to the £70 for return ticket if bought on the day. No one complains about expensive airline tickets if you expect to fly same day, why should rail travel be difference. How may rail trip are not pre planned anyway?

 

Because you are only going 80 miles, how much does it cost to do the same in France, Germany or Spain?

[trousers]

I assume the Scots will be complaining with equal gusto about the £13.3m (and climbing) that the Scottish separation referendum will be costing the tax payer?

[pap]

A drop in the ocean compared to the money she saved the country.

 

[awaits backlash]

 

Our utility bills generated £1.6Bn in profit for the French state, trousers.

 

Sleep tight!

[trousers]

Our utility bills generated £1.6Bn in profit for the French state, trousers.

 

Sleep tight!

 

When you sleep as naked as I do there's very little option than sleeping tight. Sleeping loose just gets messy.

[Sour Mash]

The rail service was crap. Following privatisation, it is still crap, but also very expensive.

Why is it now massively popular with the public then?

[Barry Sanchez]

I enjoyed it. But, there again I'm an ignorant selfish bastard so my misplaced delight is understandable I suppose.

 

Well that box is ticked off...................

[Barry Sanchez]

Left wing tax payers complaining about a government wasting their taxes.... that's made my day that has....

 

A left winger who loves his Country dearly, not a guise used by the selfish right who not only hate their Country but their Countrymen.

[trousers]

A left winger who loves his Country dearly, not a guise used by the selfish right who not only hate their Country but their Countrymen.

 

[Sour Mash]

Because you are only going 80 miles, how much does it cost to do the same in France, Germany or Spain?

About the same. Popularity of train travel is at one of it's highest ever, so can't be too bad.

[trousers]

The rail service was crap. Following privatisation, it is still crap, but also very expensive.

 

My daily commute on South West Trains costs me 0.173 pence per mile at peak time.

Edited 10 April, 2013 by trousers