Maggie Thatcher has died

[hutch]

Attempt to obfuscate point duly noted

 

Also, if you're going to throw the "if you were around..." argument about, doesn't that open your generation up for some severe criticism? You were the people who let it get that bad, after all

...or, alternatively, we voted for somebody to come in and fix it.

[Saint_Pedro]

The fact that I lived in NI doesn't automatically make me right, I agree.

 

However, it's not like this is all I have to say on the matter. So far, I've covered discrimination, Bloody Sunday, state collusion in paramilitary murders and all kinds of other specifics about NI.

 

If all I had to say was "I lived in NI. Feck off", you might have a point. I said more, so you don't.

 

 

Condescension is not an attractive trait.

[pap]

Condescension is not an attractive trait.

 

Nope, but it is effective.

 

You want less condescension? Try giving me less ammo.

[pap]

...or, alternatively, we voted for somebody to come in and fix it.

 

Yeah, and that's an attitude that got worse as time went on.

 

Don't get me wrong. I was only half-serious when making my point, but it's always someone else's fault and always someone else's problem.

 

Applies just as much to my generation as it did to yours.

[Bath Saint]

Fair enough mate. In my defence, i have written a number of things that have been published since I was 16. Short stories, poems (haha girly blah blah blah), blogs, articles (journalistic/academic). I don't keep a copy of every one to hand to prove myself right on an internet forum.

 

You can choose to not believe me if you want. Understandable, I probably wouldn't either. I'm also not hugely keen on giving away my personal information on here. Such as my full name, which is clearly visible on the article.

 

I've apologised, and retracted the statement.

 

Let's move on.

 

So, at best you wrote an undergrad dissertation on the subject which got bound and plonked in a cupboard somewhere. These 'academic' articles you write are probably little more than journalism that you post on a blog somewhere. There is nothing wrong with this (and writing poetry for that matter, don't be embarrassed), but don't try to represent it for something it is not. As you see, you'll get found out.

 

Now, I do publish in academic journals (proper ones) and if there was a serious debate on the subject I research, I would have no hesitation in referencing myself and posting the reference on this website. My name and credentials are in the public domain and I am more than happy to disseminate my research. If you do write on politics (and the Troubles in NI in particular) I don't see why you are being coy - what is the point of writing on this stuff if you don't want people reading about it. So what if people find out your real name - what are they likely to do with that fascinating piece of information?

 

Until then, let's just assume you know no more on this topic than Pap (who seems to have no problem with people knowing who he is).

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So, at best you wrote an undergrad dissertation on the subject which got bound and plonked in a cupboard somewhere. These 'academic' articles you write are probably little more than journalism that you post on a blog somewhere. There is nothing wrong with this (and writing poetry for that matter, don't be embarrassed), but don't try to represent it for something it is not. As you see, you'll get found out.

 

Now, I do publish in academic journals (proper ones) and if there was a serious debate on the subject I research, I would have no hesitation in referencing myself and posting the reference on this website. My name and credentials are in the public domain and I am more than happy to disseminate my research. If you do write on politics (and the Troubles in NI in particular) I don't see why you are being coy - what is the point of writing on this stuff if you don't want people reading about it. So what if people find out your real name - what are they likely to do with that fascinating piece of information?

 

Until then, let's just assume you know no more on this topic than Pap (who seems to have no problem with people knowing who he is).

 

Errrm I never said pap doesn't know anything. I said it as a reaction to being told, yet again, I don't know anything.

 

I over-reacted, have stated I regret it, and taken it down and apologised. I also sent PM's to those in the conversation, apologising and explaining myself.

 

What are you actually trying to achieve? What more do you want?

 

This thread is not about me. It's about Margaret Thatcher. Let's keep it like that, she is infinitely more interesting than whether or not I told porkies on the interwebs.

[Saint-Armstrong]

Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is Dead is #8 in the charts...

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

"To make tough decisions is not to be decisive, but to be devisive."

 

Dibden Purlieu Saint, 2013

[trousers]

Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is Dead is #8 in the charts...

 

Thatcher would have loved this and taken the attention as a compliment, but I guess the irony of that will be lost on those downloading it...

 

[Barry Sanchez]

It may come as a bit of a surprise to you, but the IRA and Islamic terrorism and their sympathisers are not left wing. People may support their causes, but not the means used to obtain them. (So that people don't start accusing me of supporting things I don't, my position is:- I think a united Ireland is a good ideal - if the people of Ireland want it, I don't think any government led by religious fundamentalists is good). This debate would be helped if people didn't descend into childish name calling, especially when, like you, they don't know what they are talking about.

The IRA or officials are Marxists if people realy want to know, the more modern day republicans are socialists BUT politics is Sein Fein bag and handed to them and their aims are handled through the ballot boxnot the armalite (Danny Morrison).

Most without being funny dont have a clue concerning Ireland and our relationship with them. Thatcher certainly did not have a clue but Airey Neave did hence him being killed.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[pap]

The IRA or officials are Marxists if people realy want to know, the more modern day republicans are socialists BUT politics is Sein Fein bag and handed to them and their aims are handled through the ballot boxnot the armalite (Danny Morrison).

Most without being funny dont have a clue concerning Ireland and our relationship with them. Thatcher certainly did not have a clue but Airey Neave did hence him being killed.

 

I asked the same question to my landlady - "what are the real politics of Sinn Fein?".

 

While acknowledging their Marxist past, these days, she reckons they're a bunch of opportunist buggers. They're implementing cuts in the North while campaigning against them in the South.

 

Mind you, she is SDLP, and is miffed that after all the work that the SDLP and UUP did in promoting the peace process, the population went for the extremists when it came to electing their representatives in Stormont.

[Barry Sanchez]

I asked the same question to my landlady - "what are the real politics of Sinn Fein?".

 

While acknowledging their Marxist past, these days, she reckons they're a bunch of opportunist buggers. They're implementing cuts in the North while campaigning against them in the South.

 

Mind you, she is SDLP, and is miffed that after all the work that the SDLP and UUP did in promoting the peace process, the population went for the extremists when it came to electing their representatives in Stormont.

Why are Sein Fein huge down South then? I have just read the alst few pages concerning Ireland and it gave me a laugh, SDLP are ****ing in the wind, a lovely notion that will never work.

 

In short Sein Fein aims is the unification of Ireland through democratic means, the IRA however seeks unification through whatever means.

[pap]

Why are Sein Fein huge down South then? I have just read the alst few pages concerning Ireland and it gave me a laugh, SDLP are ****ing in the wind, a lovely notion that will never work.

 

In short Sein Fein aims is the unification of Ireland through democratic means, the IRA however seeks unification through whatever means.

 

Adams stepped down from his Westminster MP post (not that he did much) and ran for and was returned as a TD for Louth.

 

They've been making concerted efforts over the last few years to make political headway in the Republic. Last election, they pulled just under 10% of the vote and 8.4% of the seats. That doesn't sound like much, but their numbers are going up each time (they shot up after the GFA) and Ireland uses STV as its voting system for the lower Dail.

 

This means that unlike a protest party in the UK, they've got much more chance of getting seats, much more chance of being part of a coalition, and therefore much more chance of influence.

 

They're into the South in a big way. At present, I think historical suspicion is keeping voters away from them.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

First up, like most resonably decent people, I find the 'rejoicing' in the death of a person shameful, and I say that as someone who would be happy to state categorically that she was 'not a very nice person' - But I am sure even Elvis Costello would not now literally be 'tramping the dirt down'

 

But I have a huge problem with those that are elevating her into some sort of 'great Britain' - those eulogizing obsessively with the collective schophantic cliche.

 

Anyone who still looks at her legacy and defends her approach is forgetting the grim reality of her approach...IMHO.

 

I like think I have a fair grasp of the political changes that have occured over the last 3-4 decades, and like most who view these things by dissassociating political alliegence/ideology when making a judgement on her actions, you can see its not as clear cut as thus thrusting tehir politics down our throughts like to suggest.

 

Britain in the 70s WAS breaking, the Unions DID have too much power and years of lack of investment and **** taking by the Unions had crippled our heavy industry... Thatcher knew that stranglehold needed to be broken, and that economically, these industries needed to become either self sufficient, modern and productive or die. Thing is there were different ways of doing things. In Japan and Germany, legislation was such that it encouraged management/worker forums, giving wprkers a say and a share of the companies they worked within - this change from firebrand unionism to effective collective commercial reality was achieved without breaking entire industries - redundancies and improvemnets in efficiency achieved through colaboration and discussion.

 

Thatcher was about a big stick - forget the need for the shakeup , that was a given, but the way she delivered it was brutal. A complete lack of compassion and IMHO a complete lack of foresight on the impact this brutality would have on whole communities - yet she remained undaunted as this never effected here core southern vote. That was the shameful part in my opinion. The fact that communities went to nothing overnight and left now two generations without hope. Communities that had pride and respect, pulled apart and left with as burnt out as the cars that replaced pretty front gardens in countless 'estates'.

 

This is not about political ideology, like I have said, I can fully accept that change was necessary, but the way she went about it suggested she either was too stupid to see the consequences, did not care about teh consequences, or it was calculated to errode the core support of the oposition... whichever its does not suggest that we should be putting her on a pedastal as some great leader...

 

 

I will not celebrate her death, that is equallly shameful, but neither will I do the usual British thing and somehow forget about the grim reality that she precided over, nor the grim legacy that she left behind.

 

Well Frank think back on the era again. Does it not strike you that a gentle, compassionate and consensual approach to tackling our ingrained social and economic problems at that time (an approach we both might have preferred to see adopted in a more perfect world) just wasn't a realistic option in the circumstances? Do you really think the militant hard left Trade Union leaders, the Provisional IRA before the British Army had fought it to a standstill, or even the odious Military Junta in Argentina were the types that could be easily reasoned with? Maybe it is sometimes necessary to wield a 'big stick' if you going to get anywhere in life.

 

This country was in state of near crisis, a nation at war with itself you might say, and as any general knows you just can't fight a war with half measures. Lucky Jim Callaghan (as decent a man and consensual politician as you'll ever likely to meet) tried to reason with the trade union leadership - beer and sandwiches at Number Ten and all that - and look where it got him and his party. It's just no good arguing that a consensual PM would have been more palletable when the country was rapidly becoming borderline ungovernable at the time.

 

As for her "grim legacy" as you put it. Well I think her real legacy was that she fought and won the battles that had to be won and she therefore created the conditions where the more consensual style politicians you prefer (Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron) could realistically succeed her. Now you tell me whether any of these (generally well intentioned) politicians have actually proved to be more effective Prime Ministers.

 

For all her faults - and every significant leader I can think of has their share - she was in my opinion the right person, in the right job, at the right time. History has a way of throwing up leaders in situations like that. 'Cometh the hour, cometh the woman' you might say ...

[Lord Duckhunter]

Didn't think the lefties could get any lower over the death of an old lady, but no, Derek Hatton lowering the tone even further. " I wish she'd never been born". Oh, and accord to Hatton , she paved the way for Tony Blair's "illegal war".

 

Why is it that lefties like Foot are allowed to rest in peace by their political foes, but they don't even have the respect to wait until she's buried before spouting vile and hate.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Not the most scientific of things, and yes it is a journo on Twitter, but he seems quite respectable. Quite surprising if true.

 

Janan Ganesh ‏@JananGanesh

ICM poll finds 50% think Thatcher was good for Britain. 34% say not. Sorry, but in electoral terms that is called a landslide.

[Barry Sanchez]

Adams stepped down from his Westminster MP post (not that he did much) and ran for and was returned as a TD for Louth.

 

They've been making concerted efforts over the last few years to make political headway in the Republic. Last election, they pulled just under 10% of the vote and 8.4% of the seats. That doesn't sound like much, but their numbers are going up each time (they shot up after the GFA) and Ireland uses STV as its voting system for the lower Dail.

 

This means that unlike a protest party in the UK, they've got much more chance of getting seats, much more chance of being part of a coalition, and therefore much more chance of influence.

 

They're into the South in a big way. At present, I think historical suspicion is keeping voters away from them.

 

 

Pap it was rhetorical, I know why they are down south.

[Barry Sanchez]

Well Frank think back on the era again. Does it not strike you that a gentle, compassionate and consensual approach to tackling our ingrained social and economic problems at that time (an approach we both might have preferred to see adopted in a more perfect world) just wasn't a realistic option in the circumstances? Do you really think the militant hard left Trade Union leaders, the Provisional IRA before the British Army had fought it to a standstill, or even the odious Military Junta in Argentina were the types that could be easily reasoned with? Maybe it is sometimes necessary to wield a 'big stick' if you going to get anywhere in life.

 

This country was in state of near crisis, a nation at war with itself you might say, and as any general knows you just can't fight a war with half measures. Lucky Jim Callaghan (as decent a man and consensual politician as you'll ever likely to meet) tried to reason with the trade union leadership - beer and sandwiches at Number Ten and all that - and look where it got him and his party. It's just no good arguing that a consensual PM would have been more palletable when the country was rapidly becoming borderline ungovernable at the time.

 

As for her "grim legacy" as you put it. Well I think her real legacy was that she fought and won the battles that had to be won and she therefore created the conditions where the more consensual style politicians you prefer (Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron) could realistically succeed her. Now you tell me whether any of these (generally well intentioned) politicians have actually proved to be more effective Prime Ministers.

 

For all her faults - and every significant leader I can think of has their share - she was in my opinion the right person, in the right job, at the right time. History has a way of throwing up leaders in situations like that. 'Cometh the hour, cometh the woman' you might say ...

 

 

********.

 

As Loach says we should tender out her funeral and accept the cheapest bid, its what she would of wanted.

[pap]

Didn't think the lefties could get any lower over the death of an old lady, but no, Derek Hatton lowering the tone even further. " I wish she'd never been born". Oh, and accord to Hatton , she paved the way for Tony Blair's "illegal war".

 

Why is it that lefties like Foot are allowed to rest in peace by their political foes, but they don't even have the respect to wait until she's buried before spouting vile and hate.

 

I think that if you have to invoke Derek Hatton to prove your point you're on a loser.

 

I met him in 2007. He really didn't strike me as a militant left-winger.

[trousers]

Didn't think the lefties could get any lower over the death of an old lady, but no, Derek Hatton lowering the tone even further. " I wish she'd never been born". Oh, and accord to Hatton , she paved the way for Tony Blair's "illegal war".

 

Why is it that lefties like Foot are allowed to rest in peace by their political foes, but they don't even have the respect to wait until she's buried before spouting vile and hate.

 

 

HTH

[Hamilton Saint]

Didn't think the lefties could get any lower over the death of an old lady, but no, Derek Hatton lowering the tone even further. " I wish she'd never been born". Oh, and accord to Hatton , she paved the way for Tony Blair's "illegal war".

 

Why is it that lefties like Foot are allowed to rest in peace by their political foes, but they don't even have the respect to wait until she's buried before spouting vile and hate.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Foot a gentleman - a thinker and a writer? [A "wet", as Thatcher would put it.] Why would he generate vile and hate? Thatcher created conflict because of her arrogant, condescending attitude. She alienated people because of her abrasive, bullying personality. Combine that with her take-no-prisoners political tactics, and you begin to understand the animosity she generated.

[aintforever]

First up, like most resonably decent people, I find the 'rejoicing' in the death of a person shameful, and I say that as someone who would be happy to state categorically that she was 'not a very nice person' - But I am sure even Elvis Costello would not now literally be 'tramping the dirt down'

 

But I have a huge problem with those that are elevating her into some sort of 'great Britain' - those eulogizing obsessively with the collective schophantic cliche.

 

Anyone who still looks at her legacy and defends her approach is forgetting the grim reality of her approach...IMHO.

 

I like think I have a fair grasp of the political changes that have occured over the last 3-4 decades, and like most who view these things by dissassociating political alliegence/ideology when making a judgement on her actions, you can see its not as clear cut as thus thrusting tehir politics down our throughts like to suggest.

 

Britain in the 70s WAS breaking, the Unions DID have too much power and years of lack of investment and **** taking by the Unions had crippled our heavy industry... Thatcher knew that stranglehold needed to be broken, and that economically, these industries needed to become either self sufficient, modern and productive or die. Thing is there were different ways of doing things. In Japan and Germany, legislation was such that it encouraged management/worker forums, giving wprkers a say and a share of the companies they worked within - this change from firebrand unionism to effective collective commercial reality was achieved without breaking entire industries - redundancies and improvemnets in efficiency achieved through colaboration and discussion.

 

Thatcher was about a big stick - forget the need for the shakeup , that was a given, but the way she delivered it was brutal. A complete lack of compassion and IMHO a complete lack of foresight on the impact this brutality would have on whole communities - yet she remained undaunted as this never effected here core southern vote. That was the shameful part in my opinion. The fact that communities went to nothing overnight and left now two generations without hope. Communities that had pride and respect, pulled apart and left with as burnt out as the cars that replaced pretty front gardens in countless 'estates'.

 

This is not about political ideology, like I have said, I can fully accept that change was necessary, but the way she went about it suggested she either was too stupid to see the consequences, did not care about teh consequences, or it was calculated to errode the core support of the oposition... whichever its does not suggest that we should be putting her on a pedastal as some great leader...

 

 

I will not celebrate her death, that is equallly shameful, but neither will I do the usual British thing and somehow forget about the grim reality that she precided over, nor the grim legacy that she left behind.

 

Good post, sums up exactly how I feel. Forget the miners, mining and heavy industry was always going to be in decline. Thatcher had a duty of care to the communities effected but you could tell she didn't give a sh!te, it was as if she saw them as the enemy, they would vote Labour anyway so she just left them to rot. Collateral damage in a war against the unions born from her own ideology.

[pap]

 

HTH

 

Churchill was more concerned with Stalin than the welfare state.

 

Besides, I'll take your "respected historical figure says something you agree with" and raise you to a "we're all being f**ked".

 

[Barry Sanchez]

I think that if you have to invoke Derek Hatton to prove your point you're on a loser.

 

I met him in 2007. He really didn't strike me as a militant left-winger.

 

 

Deek Hatton is not a left winger, he is a capitalist and a bellend.

[CB Saint]

I think that if you have to invoke Derek Hatton to prove your point you're on a loser.

 

I met him in 2007. He really didn't strike me as a militant left-winger.

 

He was, then he became a capitalist property developer in Cyprus

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Deek Hatton is not a left winger, he is a capitalist and a bellend.

 

:eek:

 

Am I reading this right?

 

Bazza & Papster in agreement?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Foot a gentleman - a thinker and a writer? [A "wet", as Thatcher would put it.] Why would he generate vile and hate? Thatcher created conflict because of her arrogant, condescending attitude. She alienated people because of her abrasive, bullying personality. Combine that with her take-no-prisoners political tactics, and you begin to understand the animosity she generated.

 

It's about manners and respect and doing the right thing however much it grates you. Personally I don't think it's right for people to be celebrating the death of anyone (save a few like Hitler ect) and any critique of her personality or politics should at least wait until she's buried. Sometimes it better to say nothing at times like this, but to positively relish the death of someone is sick and unbecoming. Can you imigane the outcry if when asked about the death of Jacques Delors, Nigel farage spouted the bile that some are spouting about Thatcher, or if the Orange order celebrating the passing of The Pope in such a way.

 

I am a confirmed and passionate Repulician , yet if the Queen passed away, I would keep my opinions to myself despite hating the women and all she stands for. I would not be celebrating or planning to protest at her funeral, in fact I would proberly be arrested if I did celebrate. I would not be doing so because it is wrong to do so, and I was brought up to do the right thing in this sort of situation. I'm not saying people should like or respect her, but should wait awhile before spouting some of the bile the BBC seem so keen to encourage.

[trousers]

Deek Hatton is not a left winger, he is a capitalist and a bellend.

 

If Derek Hatton isn't a leftie then I'm an arse...

[trousers]

Churchill was more concerned with Stalin than the welfare state.

 

Besides, I'll take your "respected historical figure says something you agree with" and raise you to a "we're all being f**ked".

 

 

That picture won't display on the capitalist device I'm using on my privatised train over a privatised comms network

Edited 9 April, 2013 by trousers

[bridge too far]

Here's another take on the vilification / celebration of someone who's died

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

[pap]

If Derek Hatton isn't a leftie then I'm an arse...

 

Blimey trousers. This story won't amuse you.

 

I met Deggsy in a professional context years ago. I worked for his son's firm for a bit just before I went to NI. He'd turn up in his flash motor (I think it was a brand new Merc, if memory serves), with as much effort lavished on his personal appearance as I'd see any scouse girl make. Designer gear head-to-toe.

 

At around the same time, I was attending demos in London - and as a consequence, ran into many people actually on the hard left.

 

They did not look like Deggsy.

[badgerx16]

 

HTH

 

"The dignity of the individual and the demands of justice require, particularly today, that economic choices do not cause disparities in wealth to increase in an excessive and morally unacceptable manner.." "...it must be borne in mind that grave imbalances are produced when economic action, conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation, is detached from political action, conceived as a means for pursuing justice through redistribution."

 

Pope Benedict XVI

 

( HTH )

[trousers]

It's about manners and respect and doing the right thing however much it grates you. Personally I don't think it's right for people to be celebrating the death of anyone (save a few like Hitler ect) and any critique of her personality or politics should at least wait until she's buried. Sometimes it better to say nothing at times like this, but to positively relish the death of someone is sick and unbecoming. Can you imigane the outcry if when asked about the death of Jacques Delors, Nigel farage spouted the bile that some are spouting about Thatcher, or if the Orange order celebrating the passing of The Pope in such a way.

 

I am a confirmed and passionate Repulician , yet if the Queen passed away, I would keep my opinions to myself despite hating the women and all she stands for. I would not be celebrating or planning to protest at her funeral, in fact I would proberly be arrested if I did celebrate. I would not be doing so because it is wrong to do so, and I was brought up to do the right thing in this sort of situation. I'm not saying people should like or respect her, but should wait awhile before spouting some of the bile the BBC seem so keen to encourage.

 

It does amuse me slightly when the very people accusing Thatcher of being "spiteful/nasty/revengeful/uncaring/etc" exhibit the very same character traits when vilifying her.

 

I guess the standard reply to that one is "it's the only language she understood so we're just giving as good as we got"

Edited 9 April, 2013 by trousers

[CB Saint]

Enough of the bickering, who had her in the dead pool?

[trousers]

"The dignity of the individual and the demands of justice require, particularly today, that economic choices do not cause disparities in wealth to increase in an excessive and morally unacceptable manner.." "...it must be borne in mind that grave imbalances are produced when economic action, conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation, is detached from political action, conceived as a means for pursuing justice through redistribution."

 

Pope Benedict XVI

 

( HTH )

 

In which of his palatial residencies did he write that...?

Edited 9 April, 2013 by trousers

[trousers]

Enough of the bickering, who had her in the dead pool?

 

I was close. I've got Arthur Scargill. He couldn't even win this one FFS...

[Barry Sanchez]

:eek:

 

Am I reading this right?

 

Bazza & Papster in agreement?

 

 

Not until he gives me an apology for his incorrect witchunt which ironically seems a tad right wing.

[shurlock]

Here's another take on the vilification / celebration of someone who's died

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

 

Good article

[Viking Warrior]

I am pretty disgusted at some of the comments. Made by some prominent people . I like to say to George Galloway I hope his mother burns in hell fires . Let see how he would like that same with Sheridan . Thatcher was a 87 year old lady who has died they should show some respect .gerry Adams comes across all sweet and innocent blaming thatcher for the problems in NI sorry Adams you and your fellow terrorist are to blame long before thatcher came to power . Scargill was the person that divided the unions and the public . She took decisive policies to stop the likes of scargill bringing the country to its knee . Now scargills ex has joined the fight saying this 87 year old woman was pure evil. I didn't agree with some of thatchers govt policies at the time but we should allow this old lady to be laid to rest

[Lord Duckhunter]

Here's another take on the vilification / celebration of someone who's died

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

 

Well there's a surprise!!!!!

 

Personally I would have thought the decent thing to do was to wait till after the funeral.

 

What would your response be to Skates celebrating the death of a public figure, Matt Le Tiss maybe, or Lawrie, would you defend their right to do so? Or does that right only extend to the death of people you don't like?

[Barry Sanchez]

I am pretty disgusted at some of the comments. Made by some prominent people . I like to say to George Galloway I hope his mother burns in hell fires . Let see how he would like that same with Sheridan . Thatcher was a 87 year old lady who has died they should show some respect .gerry Adams comes across all sweet and innocent blaming thatcher for the problems in NI sorry Adams you and your fellow terrorist are to blame long before thatcher came to power . Scargill was the person that divided the unions and the public . She took decisive policies to stop the likes of scargill bringing the country to its knee . Now scargills ex has joined the fight saying this 87 year old woman was pure evil. I didn't agree with some of thatchers govt policies at the time but we should allow this old lady to be laid to rest

 

 

Some of my friends had parties last night, I did not attend, I dont feel the need to, I wont and will not celebrate her death but I wont miss her either.

Edited 9 April, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[trousers]

Here's another take on the vilification / celebration of someone who's died

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

 

May I be so bold as to suggest he's missing the point ever so slightly?

 

I don't think the majority of those that are 'angry' with the left wing reaction are saying that she should be beyond criticism at this time. Rather it's the nasty and vicious nature of the criticism.

 

Rather than saying "I didn't like her, she ruined the lives of many people" you get "F***k the evil witch - rot in hell you c***"

 

It's the level of intellect people are using that is attracting the criticism, not the criticism itself per se

 

IMHO of course

[bridge too far]

Well there's a surprise!!!!!

 

Personally I would have thought the decent thing to do was to wait till after the funeral.

 

What would your response be to Skates celebrating the death of a public figure, Matt Le Tiss maybe, or Lawrie, would you defend their right to do so? Or does that right only extend to the death of people you don't like?

 

Did I write the article? I posted it for sensible people to read and think about.

 

Ch***t on a bloody bike!

[pap]

It does amuse me slightly when the very people accusing Thatcher of being "spiteful/nasty/revengeful/uncaring/etc" exhibit the very same character traits when vilifying her.

 

I guess the standard reply to that one is "it's the only language she understood so we're giving as good as we got"

 

Thatcher is being assessed on her record more than anything else.

 

I think so far, we've had around four or five points on that list challenged.

 

I'm certainly not unreceptive to some of the ideas on here from her supporters. I can grudgingly accept that we needed a change of government back then, just as I accept that we probably needed a change in government in 2010.

 

What I can't accept is that all of the damage she did was necessary. The right love to talk about Gordon Brown selling the gold reserves. It implies that the Conservatives were economically competent because there was gold in the bank to start with to spend with. It's a deeply flawed assumption. If I sold all of my assets, I'd be richer for awhile too - but then, I wouldn't have the assets anymore - and wouldn't be able to use them. Is that me being economically competent or making a short term decision that'll get me some short term cash massive feck me up in the future?

[trousers]

Thatcher is being assessed on her record more than anything else.

 

I think so far, we've had around four or five points on that list challenged.

 

I'm certainly not unreceptive to some of the ideas on here from her supporters. I can grudgingly accept that we needed a change of government back then, just as I accept that we probably needed a change in government in 2010.

 

What I can't accept is that all of the damage she did was necessary. The right love to talk about Gordon Brown selling the gold reserves. It implies that the Conservatives were economically competent because there was gold in the bank to start with to spend with. It's a deeply flawed assumption. If I sold all of my assets, I'd be richer for awhile too - but then, I wouldn't have the assets anymore - and wouldn't be able to use them. Is that me being economically competent or making a short term decision that'll get me some short term cash massive feck me up in the future?

 

We can fine tooth comb everything Thatcher did for another 50 pages and we'd still be where we started: half the country will say she was predominantly good for the country and half will say she wasn't.

 

I don't think everything she did was right in the execution but the general underlying philosophies were right IMO.

 

I do wrestle with the human impact of some of these 'necessary' changes the country faced and, yes, I often ponder whether sowing the seeds for the eventual collapse of the financial markets was the right thing to do for 'mankind' but I also equally ponder on how things would have turned out if we had gone down a less capitalist path.

 

At the end of the day I'm not 'academic' enough to analyse the social/economic effects of every political decision so your average man in the street typically goes with their gut feel.

 

On balance, I think Thatcher did more good than bad for the country. That's my gut feel based on my life experiences, not someone else's. other people have different life experiences and will therefore come to different conclusions.

 

No one is right or wrong.

[Wade Garrett]

When governments can handle big industry, I might come round to accept such an idea.

 

The fact is they can't.

 

Under every Labour government (I use this as an example, as let's face it, the chances of it happening under a Tory party are miniscule - although the same probably would apply) every big project still results in the public getting their pants pulled down.

 

The NHS is a joke. I love that this country has a health service, it is absolutely one of the best things about this country, and should be protected at all costs. But, it needs scrapping and starting again. It really does.

 

The idea that state run institutions don't become about greed, self-interest and self-preservation is a total fallacy. The NHS, as an example, is hideously bloated with back-room staff, in unnecessary jobs, created by 13 years of a labour government, funded by borrowing, to create their 'economic miracle'. It's hardly a surprise that we now see hospitals and NHS trusts on the verge of bankruptcy. Not to mention PFI's.

 

Governments cannot even properly regulate big industry, how on earth are they meant to run it?

 

Government can handle big industry, just not British ones.

 

France have one of the best health services and rail networks in the world. Both are a mix of public and private.

 

Our choices in this country seem to be public or private. There are other ways.

[Hamilton Saint]

It's about manners and respect and doing the right thing however much it grates you. Personally I don't think it's right for people to be celebrating the death of anyone (save a few like Hitler ect) and any critique of her personality or politics should at least wait until she's buried. Sometimes it better to say nothing at times like this, but to positively relish the death of someone is sick and unbecoming. Can you imigane the outcry if when asked about the death of Jacques Delors, Nigel farage spouted the bile that some are spouting about Thatcher, or if the Orange order celebrating the passing of The Pope in such a way.

 

I am a confirmed and passionate Repulician , yet if the Queen passed away, I would keep my opinions to myself despite hating the women and all she stands for. I would not be celebrating or planning to protest at her funeral, in fact I would proberly be arrested if I did celebrate. I would not be doing so because it is wrong to do so, and I was brought up to do the right thing in this sort of situation. I'm not saying people should like or respect her, but should wait awhile before spouting some of the bile the BBC seem so keen to encourage.

 

I do not disgaree with you. I have not expressed any glee at her passing. But I disliked the woman intensely for both her politics and for her deplorable treatment of other people - as I have tried to explain in my contributions to this thread. Some posters on here seem to like her in the same way - not just for her policies, but also for the way she bullied and derided other people.

 

I have also tried to raise the issue of her foreign policy, by the way, but nobody else seems interested.

[OldNick]

The main reason the coal mines were closed was not to get rid of the unions but as the product they produced was more expensive than the foreign imports. It must have been a convenient excuse to take on the (especially as she had seen previous governments paralysed by the miners in previous years) but If the the industry was profitable it would still be thriving and there would not have been reason to take them on.

Before people get on their high horses, I suspect everyday we make decisions that may cost jobs at home as we chose the cheaper foreign import. I do my best to buy British made products above the foreign item but in the main the price differential is normally to far adrift.if it is close I try to buy the British made item but.......

[OldNick]

We can fine tooth comb everything Thatcher did for another 50 pages and we'd still be where we started: half the country will say she was predominantly good for the country and half will say she wasn't.

 

I don't think everything she did was right in the execution but the general underlying philosophies were right IMO.

 

I do wrestle with the human impact of some of these 'necessary' changes the country faced and, yes, I often ponder whether sowing the seeds for the eventual collapse of the financial markets was the right thing to do for 'mankind' but I also equally ponder on how things would have turned out if we had gone down a less capitalist path.

 

At the end of the day I'm not 'academic' enough to analyse the social/economic effects of every political decision so your average man in the street typically goes with their gut feel.

 

On balance, I think Thatcher did more good than bad for the country. That's my gut feel based on my life experiences, not someone else's. other people have different life experiences and will therefore come to different conclusions.

 

No one is right or wrong.

top post

[Barry Sanchez]

The main reason the coal mines were closed was not to get rid of the unions but as the product they produced was more expensive than the foreign imports. It must have been a convenient excuse to take on the (especially as she had seen previous governments paralysed by the miners in previous years) but If the the industry was profitable it would still be thriving and there would not have been reason to take them on.

Before people get on their high horses, I suspect everyday we make decisions that may cost jobs at home as we chose the cheaper foreign import. I do my best to buy British made products above the foreign item but in the main the price differential is normally to far adrift.if it is close I try to buy the British made item but.......

 

 

Oh you mean cheap smoking Polish coal? Yes very good that, our coal is very very good and how we wish we still has access to it, the gas we sold to the Texans is running out quicker than we thought, at least its of the books though and one less thing to pay for.

 

What do the Germans do? Lets copy their economy, they seem to be better at it than we are and they support their Nations workers.