Is extending the ground at the end of next season actually true?

[SaintBobby]

I used them as an example of how quickly you can go from submitting a planning application to having bums on seats watching games. Not that Saints should copy their strategy 100%.

 

If Liebherr/Cortese intend to fund the stadium expansion/development of the land around the ground alongside investment in the team, then I have no issue as Saints under FFP need to increase revenue streams to compete. Wolves neglected the team and have suffered.

 

It seems to me - just on the face of it, I don't have a costed business plan - that there are other smarter ways of expanding the revenue stream (our merchandising arm is pretty feeble, for example - is it actually possible to buy a Saints shirt in any retail outlet outside of Southampton?)

[AussieDog]

I'm still waiting for the day that I see a Saints shirt for sale in a shop in Australia!

[patred44]

sorry lads the earlier posts just reminded me of this:lol:

 

 

Edited 8 April, 2013 by patred44

[St Chalet]

Thats 80,000 extra paying customers just for league games per year at Premier League prices. A stadium expansion isn't just for one year, the infrastructure will benefit Saints for decades to come. It also helps grow the fanbase with more people able to see games rather than supply not meeting the demand each time this season we've sold out. As you can see from the images from AFL, it isn't solely about extra seats, the whole stadium is developed, along with the surrounding area to provide extra revenue streams for the club in an era of FFP.

 

An extra £3.2m per year, remind me what the broadcast rights are worth.

[CB Fry]

An extra £3.2m per year, remind me what the broadcast rights are worth.

 

 

 

....and merely a decade at least before we pay off the cost.

 

And that's if you accept eight games a season where we sell 10,000 more seats than now.

 

Home to Arsenal on a Saturday in August? 42,000?

 

Home to Man City on a Monday night in November? 42,000?

 

Home to Liverpool on a Saturday lunchtime? 42,000?

 

Home to Spurs on a post Europa Sunday? 42,000?

 

Another 3 42,000 games a season not involving the current top five?

 

All for no finacial gain in a decade?

 

Can't wait.

Edited 8 April, 2013 by CB Fry

[rooney]

It is all about GUARANTEED Income though. Selling additional seats on match days at some matches is not guaranteed. About the only thing Rupert Lowe said with any sense is that he would not consider expanding the Stadium until we had 25K Season Ticket Holders each season for 5 years. This is a basic business requirement. Does anybody know how many we have now-20K?

[Wurzel]

It is all about GUARANTEED Income though. Selling additional seats on match days at some matches is not guaranteed. About the only thing Rupert Lowe said with any sense is that he would not consider expanding the Stadium until we had 25K Season Ticket Holders each season for 5 years. This is a basic business requirement. Does anybody know how many we have now-20K?

 

He did. Something I always found strange considering that in order to make sure that tickets were always available for a proportion of casual fans, the club charter at the time stated a maximum of 23000 STs would be available.

[stevegrant]

It is all about GUARANTEED Income though. Selling additional seats on match days at some matches is not guaranteed. About the only thing Rupert Lowe said with any sense is that he would not consider expanding the Stadium until we had 25K Season Ticket Holders each season for 5 years. This is a basic business requirement. Does anybody know how many we have now-20K?

The guaranteed income thing has reminded me that it seems absolutely insane that we still haven't reinstated some sort of membership scheme. It's an easy £20-odd a year from thousands of supporters just for the privilege of a card with your name on and priority ahead of non-members for tickets.

[Charlie Wayman]

Did the stadium tour yesterday and there is some truth in this. However, it will only happen when Saints have finished in the top 5 for a couple of seasons. I found it interesting that the stadium to build now would cost 10 times as much as it actualy did....

 

You can't leave it there, who told you that? Surely a guide wouldn't know such confidential information?

[georgeweahscousin]

The guaranteed income thing has reminded me that it seems absolutely insane that we still haven't reinstated some sort of membership scheme. It's an easy £20-odd a year from thousands of supporters just for the privilege of a card with your name on and priority ahead of non-members for tickets.

 

I too find this bizarre, especially as now we have the swipe system there would be no need whatsoever to have to make printed tickets.... Just make that game live on the members card!

[tajjuk]

I think people are getting carried away and fixated on attendance figures, I think any expansion will be gradual, probably a stand at a time so probably only 4k intially but the whole stadium and area will get investment which will not only make the club's home more unique but generate more income for the club.

 

Surely the most ardent anti-expansion fan could get on board with 36k, upgraed concourses and facia, upgraded suroounding area and new coporate facitlity/club building?

[Sour Mash]

I think people are getting carried away and fixated on attendance figures, I think any expansion will be gradual, probably a stand at a time so probably only 4k intially but the whole stadium and area will get investment which will not only make the club's home more unique but generate more income for the club.

 

Surely the most ardent anti-expansion fan could get on board with 36k, upgraed concourses and facia, upgraded suroounding area and new coporate facitlity/club building?

Would be no point doing it for just 4k extra seats.

[Charlie Wayman]

That's what the previous concept drawings have suggested could be in the pipeline; a big extension of the Kingland, minor extensions of Northam and Chapel, and a new "skin" for the stadium exterior.

 

I know our "Ikea flatpack" design gets a bit of stick for not being unique and a bit bland. Personally I haven't got a problem with it; and you'd be hard pushed to argue that any seat of the 32,689 is anything but a great view for a football ground. And if we do press on with plans to increase, that in turn will being an element of uniqueness to the design.

 

Now, if Cortese could just live up to his promise to get drinks sold much quicker on matchday, that is one stadium improvement I'd really like to see! Drinks queues, particularly in the Chapel, are absolutely awful. Build that into the design please, NC; lots and lots of new kiosks.

 

The key test is the quality of the loos and the food outlets. Both are crap at The Emirates and Wembley and no better than what is on offer at SMS. I'm amazed we don't get hit by plague epidemics with all that lack of good hygiene. Old scouser fans always wore welly boots to matches at Anfield and for very good reasons; many will remember with 'fondness' using the Dell Loo's in the rain... but that's probably too much information.

[The Kraken]

I think people are getting carried away and fixated on attendance figures, I think any expansion will be gradual, probably a stand at a time so probably only 4k intially but the whole stadium and area will get investment which will not only make the club's home more unique but generate more income for the club.

 

Surely the most ardent anti-expansion fan could get on board with 36k, upgraed concourses and facia, upgraded suroounding area and new coporate facitlity/club building?

Are there any fans who are anti-expansion? Can't say I've come across any who are against the idea at the right point in time.

[Bearsy]

There'd be a few against it if it's gonna mean an Arsenal style hike in ticket prices yo

[Saint Charlie]

Im pretty sure it Cortese decides to extend or not it will be the right decision at the right time and right price. Until it happens Im not overly bothered either way.

[Dalek2003]

Are there any fans who are anti-expansion? Can't say I've come across any who are against the idea at the right point in time.

 

I hark back to the days when we had a tight little ground like the Dell, all packed in and intimidating atmosphere. We were a force to be reckoned with, combined with Glenn Hoddle as our genius manager we went on the best winning run in club history.

[Saint 76er]

Think all the arguments for and against on here might be a waste of time as a criteria for expansion. The simple fact is that if all the figures have to add up before going ahead, then it will never happen as taking out a commercial loan facility for this type of money would be financial suicide, just ask Rupert Lowe.

 

However, our Mr Cortese has talked lovingly of a stadium expansion from the get-go without batting an eyelid. There was even talk from one of his dinners that he had admitted sounding out the council about putting in plans for an expansion to 44000 and he clearly has detailed architectural drawings already drawn up by AFL, which suggests he is probably further down the line with this than some of you think.

 

Therefore, the only real question is funding and it is unlikely to be a commercial arrangement involving season ticket sale levels or whatever. Somehow, Saints don't seem to operate in the same mundane financial universe that most other clubs are stuck in these days. It seems quite probable that Markus left a 'building fund' for Cortese to see through their dream of CL football and they both spoke initially of the need for a training ground upgrade and this is almost completed now, so the main stadium may well be next on the agenda. Don't forget that a top 10 EPL club with excellent facilities/academy plus a modern, say, 48000 seater stadium situated in a largish catchment area, with only a cr@p lower league/non league apology for a football club as a neighbour, will have a considerable value and rich folk like the Liebherrs will see the value of their asset skyrocketing with a bit of speculative spending and success on the field.

 

Bottom line is that to increase the value of the club to such levels then the stadium is a vital part of the 'image' that is presented to the world. Even with on-field success our current stadium is not quite upmarket enough to make us seem like a big club. I think Cortese and Markus wanted a big club and would have known what it might cost, hence IMO Cortese must be confident that funds are available somewhere (probably a Swiss bank account) to fulfill the dream and I doubt if he cares less about season ticket surveys etc ...

 

PS This may explain the apparently apathetic attitude to selling STs since he has been in charge.

[aintforever]

It is all about GUARANTEED Income though. Selling additional seats on match days at some matches is not guaranteed. About the only thing Rupert Lowe said with any sense is that he would not consider expanding the Stadium until we had 25K Season Ticket Holders each season for 5 years. This is a basic business requirement. Does anybody know how many we have now-20K?

 

I wouldn't base anything on Lowe's criteria, we now have owners who have shown they are willing to invest. Under Lowe we were always on a financial tightrope and rich owners aside, there is more money in the Prem nowadays. building costs have also gone up tho.

 

Another thing to think about is the financial fair play rules which might make it more worthwhile to tip cash into developing stadia and revenue streams to keep competitive.

Edited 8 April, 2013 by aintforever

[September Saint]

Re expansion:

I have a season ticket both to guarantee me a seat and sit where I choose (I don't want to sit in block 13)

If I knew there would be a lot more good seats on general sale I may only buy on a "match by match" basis. It's often hard to go to all matches.

I think other people would also be more selective with more seats for sale.

 

A smaller expansion (second tier on the Kingsland) may be worth it but surely no more.

[CB Fry]

Re expansion:

I have a season ticket both to guarantee me a seat and sit where I choose (I don't want to sit in block 13)

If I knew there would be a lot more good seats on general sale I may only buy on a "match by match" basis. It's often hard to go to all matches.

I think other people would also be more selective with more seats for sale.

 

A smaller expansion (second tier on the Kingsland) may be worth it but surely no more.

 

The "build it now" boys hate this point. A proportion of fans at a, say, Fulham home game are there because it gets them up the queue for the big games.

 

If you didn't need a ST to guarantee getting in for Man United, some fans wouldn't get one.

[The Kraken]

The "build it now" boys hate this point. A proportion of fans at a, say, Fulham home game are there because it gets them up the queue for the big games.

 

If you didn't need a ST to guarantee getting in for Man United, some fans wouldn't get one.

Yep. By the same token it can also be a good thing to create that sense of demand for tickets. If you know that you can just turn up on the day for most games and get in, you're unlikely to purchase far in advance. At the moment, and especially so for the bigger games, there has been a big rush to buy tickets as soon as they've gone on sale.

 

of course it swings the other way in that with tickets available on the day it encourages ad hoc sales. But this season we've also had a few of those and still failed to sell out, which would indicate that the actual walk up on match day hasn't been huge.

 

Its a delicate balance, that's for sure.

[UpweySaint]

Yep. By the same token it can also be a good thing to create that sense of demand for tickets. If you know that you can just turn up on the day for most games and get in, you're unlikely to purchase far in advance. At the moment, and especially so for the bigger games, there has been a big rush to buy tickets as soon as they've gone on sale.

 

of course it swings the other way in that with tickets available on the day it encourages ad hoc sales. But this season we've also had a few of those and still failed to sell out, which would indicate that the actual walk up on match day hasn't been huge.

 

Its a delicate balance, that's for sure.

 

Im not sure the walk up has much appeal. Ok the stadium is close to the city centre but it is still out of the way for most and, as has been discussed on other expansion threads, the area around the ground is rather sparse so simply walking up there on the off chance there are tickets available (lately it has been v rare to find two together due to the nature of people choosing there own seats) seems like a considerable waste of time.

 

Throw in the fact that a large number of the fanbase aren't based in central southampton (i'm at a nearby university town myself) matchday walk up isnt really an option for many with travel to games requiring an element of planning.

 

Either way my general impression is that 4 to 6,000 seats would do more good then harm for sure and would hopefully help to keep tickets reasonably priced and available (the categorised pricing structure hopefully should attract fans for the likes of wigan) while focus should be given, if possible of course, to developing the area surrounding the stadium.

[The Kraken]

Im not sure the walk up has much appeal. Ok the stadium is close to the city centre but it is still out of the way for most and, as has been discussed on other expansion threads, the area around the ground is rather sparse so simply walking up there on the off chance there are tickets available (lately it has been v rare to find two together due to the nature of people choosing there own seats) seems like a considerable waste of time.

 

Throw in the fact that a large number of the fanbase aren't based in central southampton (i'm at a nearby university town myself) matchday walk up isnt really an option for many with travel to games requiring an element of planning.

 

Either way my general impression is that 4 to 6,000 seats would do more good then harm for sure and would hopefully help to keep tickets reasonably priced and available (the categorised pricing structure hopefully should attract fans for the likes of wigan) while focus should be given, if possible of course, to developing the area surrounding the stadium.

Having thousands of extra seats would of course be a benefit. It's the cost to put them there in the first place that is the only reason it's any sort of debate. If cost is no object then I'm all for it, build it ASAP. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple, we may be well funded but I'd wager we don't have limitless resources.

 

Your Wigan comment, I'm not sure i understand the context. We didn't sell out the current ground against Wigan. So extra seats is somewhat irrelevant, surely?

[tajjuk]

Yep. By the same token it can also be a good thing to create that sense of demand for tickets. If you know that you can just turn up on the day for most games and get in, you're unlikely to purchase far in advance. At the moment, and especially so for the bigger games, there has been a big rush to buy tickets as soon as they've gone on sale.

 

of course it swings the other way in that with tickets available on the day it encourages ad hoc sales. But this season we've also had a few of those and still failed to sell out, which would indicate that the actual walk up on match day hasn't been huge.

 

Its a delicate balance, that's for sure.

 

Most people though their Saturdays are precious, if they aren't going to the football then they willl arrange something else so that's probably why you don't get much walk up. I doubt many people these days just decide to go and spend £35 - £40 out of the blue on a Saturday afternoon. For those with families it could be easily over £100.

 

West Ham is already sold out and has been for days now. Mid level team that plays rubbish football so demand has grown over the season with good results as we weren't selling out say Norwich or Fulham say who aren't that different to West Ham in terms of appeal.

[Sour Mash]

Most people though their Saturdays are precious, if they aren't going to the football then they willl arrange something else so that's probably why you don't get much walk up. I doubt many people these days just decide to go and spend £35 - £40 out of the blue on a Saturday afternoon. For those with families it could be easily over £100.

 

West Ham is already sold out and has been for days now. Mid level team that plays rubbish football so demand has grown over the season with good results as we weren't selling out say Norwich or Fulham say who aren't that different to West Ham in terms of appeal.

West Ham at home is quite a bigger game than Norwich on a Weds night in November, or Fulham at home on a Sunday lunch time on Sky. Kracken's point is right though, if you scratch out "walk up on the day" and replace it with "buy with ease a week or so before hand", the point remains valid.

[The Kraken]

Most people though their Saturdays are precious, if they aren't going to the football then they willl arrange something else so that's probably why you don't get much walk up. I doubt many people these days just decide to go and spend £35 - £40 out of the blue on a Saturday afternoon. For those with families it could be easily over £100.

 

West Ham is already sold out and has been for days now. Mid level team that plays rubbish football so demand has grown over the season with good results as we weren't selling out say Norwich or Fulham say who aren't that different to West Ham in terms of appeal.

 

i wouldn't be as keen to speak for "most people" as you are, to be honest. I have no idea what sort of incentive it would be if families knew they could decide on the day to attend a match. And I've been told on more than one occasion that walk ups in our previous PL days used to number in the thousands; so if that's in any way true it shows some form of high demand for on the day sales.

[UpweySaint]

Having thousands of extra seats would of course be a benefit. It's the cost to put them there in the first place that is the only reason it's any sort of debate. If cost is no object then I'm all for it, build it ASAP. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple, we may be well funded but I'd wager we don't have limitless resources.

 

Your Wigan comment, I'm not sure i understand the context. We didn't sell out the current ground against Wigan. So extra seats is somewhat irrelevant, surely?

 

No of course fair point. I think spunking large ammounts of money on the 56,000 (or whatever it is) dream design straight away would not make financial sense but, from a balance of the figures banded around, somewhere around the figure I suggested seems affordable and viable. We would sell out the big games and hopefully it could allow the pricing to not face massive rises with supply not being able to satisfy demand.

 

The point about Wigan I admit could have been stronger but I honestly feel that IF we continue to progress (the grand plan and all that!) then our fanbase will inevtiably grow and we will have less trouble selling out these games even with more seats (especially if prices are seen to be reasonable).

 

I also maintain that having simply more around the stadium will increase footfall and our potential walk up numbers for the games that dont sell like hot cakes as well as making the area itself more vibrant.

 

I know for every good example there's a bad (see wolves lovely expansion!) but if we look at Swansea, an arguably smaller club, they are expanding by 10k. They are trying to capitalise on their momentum and I think we should too especially with a need to have a solid income stream with ffp kicking in soon.

[The Kraken]

I know for every good example there's a bad (see wolves lovely expansion!) but if we look at Swansea, an arguably smaller club, they are expanding by 10k. They are trying to capitalise on their momentum and I think we should too especially with a need to have a solid income stream with ffp kicking in soon.

Fair points. And to this I somewhat agree, I don't think (or at least I hope) we're not a huge distance from justifying some form of expansion. From a safe standpoint I'd be looking to wait a couple more seasons as we're not there yet IMO; but a couple of seasons of sellouts (and far in advance of match day) and it makes a very strong case.

[Sour Mash]

Not sure what others thoughts are on this, but I can't see how we could expand the ground without having to close sections of it during the season? Is that likely to be possible?

[Matthew Le God]

Not sure what others thoughts are on this, but I can't see how we could expand the ground without having to close sections of it during the season? Is that likely to be possible?

 

- Wolves knocked down an entire stand after the final game of the season in May and had people sitting in the new stand in September of the same year.

- Fulham plan to add another tier to the Riverside Stand without losing capacity during contruction

- Brighton added another tier to the Amex without impacting on capacity

 

Fulham example, which uses old stand and builds on top of it...

 

Phase 1: Closed season 2012/13. New river wall, new fender piles, new stadium bearing piles, modifications to Putney Stand undertaken and new river walkway are built.

 

 

Phase 2: Open season 2013/14. Temporary platform constructed, and foundations finished. Then steel frame is erected, floor slabs put in place and core towers at each end (for roof) put into place. Roof trust is delivered and put into shape on top of new stand, before being put into place and supported on its end cores. Finally, the remaining steelwork (the seating) is erected, before the roof is put up and clad.

 

 

Phase 3: Closed season 2013/14. Existing Riverside roof is removed, as well as supporting columns, whilst stand is fitted out and modified for the start of the 2014/15 season. New gates/ turnstiles put into place at end of Bishops Park and start of riverside walkway on Hammersmith side of stand. No seats would be lost during construction.

 

 

Craven Cottage when finished...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 April, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[doubleonothing]

And now for a version of the Football Manager argument that is occasionally wheeled out when a player is linked:

 

"Expand it! It pays off in FM!"

 

 

Personally I'd like to see an expansion as that way I'd be more likely to get a ticket for when I'm in the country. Also, with the large number of cruise ships using Southampton as a turnaround port (and whilst not all are in on a match day), we should make the most of them and try and attract casual fans who are only in town for the day(or day before joining a ship) - something American sports teams do -go after the casual fan

[Sour Mash]

- Wolves knocked down an entire stand after the final game of the season in May and had people sitting in the new stand in September of the same year.

- Fulham plan to add another tier to the Riverside Stand without losing capacity during contruction

- Brighton added another tier to the Amex without impacting on capacity

 

Fulham example, which uses old stand and builds on top of it...

 

Phase 1: Closed season 2012/13. New river wall, new fender piles, new stadium bearing piles, modifications to Putney Stand undertaken and new river walkway are built.

 

 

Phase 2: Open season 2013/14. Temporary platform constructed, and foundations finished. Then steel frame is erected, floor slabs put in place and core towers at each end (for roof) put into place. Roof trust is delivered and put into shape on top of new stand, before being put into place and supported on its end cores. Finally, the remaining steelwork (the seating) is erected, before the roof is put up and clad.

 

 

Phase 3: Closed season 2013/14. Existing Riverside roof is removed, as well as supporting columns, whilst stand is fitted out and modified for the start of the 2014/15 season. New gates/ turnstiles put into place at end of Bishops Park and start of riverside walkway on Hammersmith side of stand. No seats would be lost during construction.

 

 

Craven Cottage when finished...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guess it might have been easier for Wolves as they has "stand alone" stands. Do you know how much that is costing Fulham? An impressive piece of construction work if they pull it off successfully.

[stevegrant]

Do you know how much that is costing Fulham? An impressive piece of construction work if they pull it off successfully.

I can't find a single news article that even speculates on what the projected cost will be, let alone one with a club source quoted!

 

Judging by the phase photos, it looks like it'll be a similar project to the one West Ham embarked upon when they rebuilt their main stand about a decade or so ago, building most of it behind the existing structure. Without demolishing the whole stand and building from the ground up, which would obviously lose capacity (and they sell out for pretty much every game these days), it's the only logical way of doing it IMO.

[Turkish]

I can't find a single news article that even speculates on what the projected cost will be, let alone one with a club source quoted!

 

Judging by the phase photos, it looks like it'll be a similar project to the one West Ham embarked upon when they rebuilt their main stand about a decade or so ago, building most of it behind the existing structure. Without demolishing the whole stand and building from the ground up, which would obviously lose capacity (and they sell out for pretty much every game these days), it's the only logical way of doing it IMO.

 

Are you suggesting that MLG is putting up random artists impressions of stadium developments which have little to no evidence that the drawing is nothing more than a pretty picture at the moment and has nothing to suggest that it will happen any time soon?

[Matthew Le God]

Are you suggesting that MLG is putting up random artists impressions of stadium developments which have little to no evidence that the drawing is nothing more than a pretty picture at the moment and has nothing to suggest that it will happen any time soon?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19009781

 

http://www.fulhamfcstadium.com/

[stevegrant]

Are you suggesting that MLG is putting up random artists impressions of stadium developments which have little to no evidence that the drawing is nothing more than a pretty picture at the moment and has nothing to suggest that it will happen any time soon?

No, that redevelopment is definitely happening in the timescales mentioned, I've just not seen any mentions or even speculation as to how much it's costing Al Fayed to build.

[Alain Perrin]

Apparently as part of the work, Fulham will move the Michael Jackson statue to a plinth in the middle of the Thames. River traffic will not be affected because he'll be surrounded by small bouys...

Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro1_276 using Board Express

[djharvey]

Are you suggesting that MLG is putting up random artists impressions of stadium developments which have little to no evidence that the drawing is nothing more than a pretty picture at the moment and has nothing to suggest that it will happen any time soon?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Not convinced existing demand justifies the suggested financial outlay required to expand the stadium, especially after just one season back in the league.

[Sour Mash]

I can't find a single news article that even speculates on what the projected cost will be, let alone one with a club source quoted!

 

Judging by the phase photos, it looks like it'll be a similar project to the one West Ham embarked upon when they rebuilt their main stand about a decade or so ago, building most of it behind the existing structure. Without demolishing the whole stand and building from the ground up, which would obviously lose capacity (and they sell out for pretty much every game these days), it's the only logical way of doing it IMO.

In the construction phasing information it says "No seats would be lost during construction", but its hard to know exactly what they mean by that. It'd be a real challenge to build a new stand without disrupting the old one, bearing in my how close the river runs behind it.

[rooney]

I wouldn't base anything on Lowe's criteria, we now have owners who have shown they are willing to invest. Under Lowe we were always on a financial tightrope and rich owners aside, there is more money in the Prem nowadays. building costs have also gone up tho.

 

Another thing to think about is the financial fair play rules which might make it more worthwhile to tip cash into developing stadia and revenue streams to keep competitive.

Cortese is a business man. He will not tip cash into SMS without a business case, you can be sure of that.