Derby House Fire - Father and Mother kill 6 children

[hutch]

But what I was saying was that the local social services are not some omnipotent being that can see everything. If on the outside they seemingly were fine then it's very difficult to intrude on someone's life to find out. In regards to your other point I'm glad it's difficult to separate children from their families. Imo this should really be a measure of last resort and where there are problems the solution should always be to give the family support and understanding unless the child is in immediate danger or where all other avenues have been exhausted.

 

The preference should always be to keep the family unit together where possible.

I knew what you were saying. My point is that sometimes the safe "do nothing just in case" option has worse consequences than the "do something but don't get it quite right" option.

[hypochondriac]

I knew what you were saying. My point is that sometimes the safe "do nothing just in case" option has worse consequences than the "do something but don't get it quite right" option.

 

I suppose it's about what that something is though. We can't just hold people under suspicion without just cause . I'm not sure this act of idiocy is linked with his previous conduct as a father. If something happens to a child under the care of someone it doesn't automatically follow that they were being neglectful beforehand. It could well have been an isolated incident where they did not consider the consequences of their actions.

[trousers]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/douglas-murray/2013/04/the-philpott-case-should-prompt-debate-about-britains-underclass/

 

The Philpott case has already turned into a row about media reporting. You can see why. It is so much easier to argue about a newspaper front-page than to talk about the terrible underclass this country has created.

In a nutshell our problem is this. For hard-working couples, having children in 21st century Britain is unbelievably costly. Having been taxed at every turn of their lives they have to think extremely carefully about whether they can afford to have a child. Many will decide they cannot. Others will decide that they can but will spend endless nights worrying over how they are going to support the child they have brought into the world. If they find they can afford that first child they will still think very hard about whether they can afford a second, let alone a third.

The cosmic joke is that at the same time that such couples are worrying about their bills, they will be paying money to encourage another group of people to have children with few such concerns. Of course most of this latter group do not live like millionaires. And naturally most do not burn their children to death. But there is a substantial class – or underclass – in this country which no longer shares the concerns of what used to be ordinary people.

If you think this is not an issue – like much of the political left – then you have to ask yourself a straightforward question. What is the long-term future for a country where responsible people are discouraged from having children and the irresponsible encouraged? And yes – it is not just irresponsible, but deeply, deeply irreponsible to bring a child into the world if you do not have the means to support that child, let alone no intention of obtaining such means. Of course some peoples’ circumstances change for the worse and the welfare state should be there precisely to support such people. But people who have no job and no prospect of getting one and yet have more children are bad and selfish people.

A simple reversal needs to take place so that people on welfare are dis-incentivised from having children and working couples are incentivised. Exactly how this should be done can be debated. But what should not be debated is that people on welfare should not just worry about having children as much as working couples do – they should worry about it far, far more. And that is not just because the cost of their actions ought to be higher, but because the cost of their actions is higher..

However, as the war against Iain Duncan Smith’s efforts has shown, this country appears unwilling to make such basic judgements. It often seems that we are going to have to hit the bottom and break completely before some people realise it needs fixing at all.

[hypochondriac]

That's a good article trousers and one I agree with even though it would be difficult to implement some sort of policy. What if you got pregnant by accident for example and it could be seen as promoting abortions.

[ant]

So work towards tackling this so-called underclass and stop using these tragic deaths to drive an agenda that indicts the entire welfare state and those supported by it.

 

Less than 1% of the welfare budget is lost to fraud, yet the cost to the state of tax evasion/avoidance is likely to run to more than £100bn. The poor are being pitted against the poorer; who gains from that?

[solentstars]

So work towards tackling this so-called underclass and stop using these tragic deaths to drive an agenda that indicts the entire welfare state and those supported by it.

 

Less than 1% of the welfare budget is lost to fraud, yet the cost to the state of tax evasion/avoidance is likely to run to more than £100bn. The poor are being pitted against the poorer; who gains from that?

the people who fund the political partys and think tanks who want to destroy the welfare state who else .

[Sour Mash]

the people who fund the political partys and think tanks who want to destroy the welfare state who else .

Regardless, our Welfare State is a mess and needs a massive overhaul. Edited 5 April, 2013 by Sour Mash

[View From The Top]

Regardless, out Welfare State is a mess and needs a massive overhaul.

 

 

Correct. I'm a dyed in the wool leftie, work in some of the poorest wards in England but fu.ck me, there is a large slice of scrounging, workshy bast.ards who are taking the pi.ss and MY money.

 

There needs to be a non party Queens Commission launched as the system is utterly fu.cked.

[trousers]

What if you got pregnant by accident

 

I'd struggle to get pregnant on purpose to be honest....

[CB Saint]

So work towards tackling this so-called underclass and stop using these tragic deaths to drive an agenda that indicts the entire welfare state and those supported by it.

 

Less than 1% of the welfare budget is lost to fraud, yet the cost to the state of tax evasion/avoidance is likely to run to more than £100bn. The poor are being pitted against the poorer; who gains from that?

 

The issue at hand is not fraud in the welfare system but the money doled out legitimatly. Mick Philpotts didn't commit fraud to obtain benefits, he did however milk the system to an inch of its life. Unethical but legal - just like tax avoidance.

 

Both need to be tackled with equal enthusiam - tax avoidance needs to be significantly reduced (we can start with the apples and googles of this world), but the benefits system does need to change so that it reverts to being a safetynet and not a lifestyle choice.

[solentstars]

trickle down economics

[Hockey_saint]

Viking Warrior, sorry about the late response but I disagree, Solentstars was right, he was disgustingly playing to the gallery...probably soon after he parked his car in a disabled bay, showing what he thinks of the disabled as well. Don't get me wrong, it's a politician thing, either side, they have a polarised view of things and they consistantly believe, rightly or wrongly, that their way is the correct way...but it's disgraceful and contemptuous for a man single-handidly destroying the welfare state and driving people into poverty to say even allow himself to be drawn into such a discussion.

 

Also, it's our growing elderly population that is making the NHS, joblessness and the benefit system unmanageable yet those are generally conservative heartland voters so they won't touch them....unlike the poor and disabled.

[Viking Warrior]

I'm not defending is Osbourne but he did not park his vehicle in a disabled parki g space . It was his driver while he went to get some burgers . See how a story got twisted . Meanwhile ed ball got docked six points for speeding again this less than two years since he was caught using his mobile phone while driving . I don't hear the left wing BBC making a story out of the little nugget . Just goes to prove the BBC has an anti Tory agenda

[dinger]

I'm not defending is Osbourne but he did not park his vehicle in a disabled parki g space . It was his driver while he went to get some burgers . See how a story got twisted . Meanwhile ed ball got docked six points for speeding again this less than two years since he was caught using his mobile phone while driving . I don't hear the left wing BBC making a story out of the little nugget . Just goes to prove the BBC has an anti Tory agenda

 

I think the disabled parking story was in the Mirror, to be fair. Nothing to do with the BBC.

[trousers]

he parked his car in a disabled bay

 

No he didn't.

 

(a) he wasn't driving and

(b) it wasn't 'his' car

 

It makes a cracking sensationalist headline though, I'll give you that

[solentstars]

[JackFrost]

No he didn't.

 

(a) he wasn't driving and

(b) it wasn't 'his' car

 

It makes a cracking sensationalist headline though, I'll give you that

 

Fortunately for him it didn't happen a month or so ago or it'd made up part of Ed Miliband's response to the budget. . .

 

Like you say, with things like this and Ed Balls being done for speeding, frankly who gives a flying ****?

[bridge too far]

I'm not defending is Osbourne but he did not park his vehicle in a disabled parki g space . It was his driver while he went to get some burgers . See how a story got twisted . Meanwhile ed ball got docked six points for speeding again this less than two years since he was caught using his mobile phone while driving . I don't hear the left wing BBC making a story out of the little nugget . Just goes to prove the BBC has an anti Tory agenda

 

Wrong

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22044198

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Correct. I'm a dyed in the wool leftie, work in some of the poorest wards in England but fu.ck me, there is a large slice of scrounging, workshy bast.ards who are taking the pi.ss and MY money.

 

There needs to be a non party Queens Commission launched as the system is utterly fu.cked.

 

Totally agree on all your points.

[Hockey_saint]

Bit foolish of me to be sucked into that Disabled parking bay argument so I'll say "ok, it hit a bit of a nerve" I really hate people that do that and it was a ill-thought out response but either way, no matter the party they'll probably act the same way for popularity...still, I think it's not right to make the association because I believe that it doesn't matter how tough or strict a system such as the benefits one is, there will always be those who will be able to get around it.

[1576]

Well I know that their actions led to the deaths of 6 children but, from all accounts, the children were actually well fed, well clothed and happy. Was there any evidence of physical cruelty towards the children? I don't know.

 

I can think of instances of poor parenting where, to the outside world, the parents appear to be first rate. Think of the huge percentage of sexual abuse of children perpetrated by members of the child's own family - children from all backgrounds.

 

Who would ever want to be the arbiter of what makes a good parent? Smacks a bit of eugenics to my mind.

 

Quite, look no further than the McCanns.