Jump to content

In what year can we realistically challenge Europe's


Barry Sanchez
 Share

Recommended Posts

Does that make Bradford more ambitious also?

 

I'm sure the Wigan fans aren't at all excited about their FA cup semi final against championship opposition which means a great chance of the final. It cant be very exciting being them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doing well in the Cup competitions doesn't equate to a club being ambitious for success in Europe. Parcipitation in Europe Cup competitions is merely a by-product. And the Cup competitions are also a bit of a lottery anyway.

 

Wigan could win the FA Cup and suffer relegation too, so how does that lie with their ambitions?

 

Matey boy said that we have more chance of pushing for a trophy than Europe and stated that it must be dull to be unambitious Wigan. Now unless you think the trophy we are going to push for is the league (which in your wierd world it probably is) then the next best trophy we can push for is the one dull, boring, unambitious little Wigan will probably be in the final for in May.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yet despite Wigans supposed lack of ambition they are pushing for a trophy by being in the FA Cup semi final and a very good chance of making it to the final.

 

Okay so Wigan are massively ambitious then. The DW should be increased to 70,000 to accomodate this level of ambition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay so Wigan are massively ambitious then. The DW should be increased to 70,000 to accomodate this level of ambition.

 

No. David Whelan is cleary realistic and unlike some of the mugs on here realises that their stadium is adequate for them at the moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doing well in the Cup competitions doesn't equate to a club being ambitious for success in Europe. Parcipitation in Europe Cup competitions is merely a by-product. And the Cup competitions are also a bit of a lottery anyway.

 

Wigan could win the FA Cup and suffer relegation too, so how does that lie with their ambitions?

 

If its a by-product how come only the skates are the only team out of the big 4 to win the FA Cup in the last 10 years?

Coincidence? I dont think so.

The lesser League Cup to whcih you refer?

Middlesbrough, Birmingham and Swansea have won it in the last 10 years, have they shown more ambition than us?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If its a by-product how come only the skates are the only team out of the big 4 to win the FA Cup in the last 10 years?

Coincidence? I dont think so.

The lesser League Cup to whcih you refer?

Middlesbrough, Birmingham and Swansea have won it in the last 10 years, have they shown more ambition than us?

 

Clearly they haven't shown more ambition hence Swansea are the only PL team from that group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What does Bradford have to do with us being more ambitious than dull little Wigan? Clearly you are talking bo llocks.

 

Apparently Wigan being in a Cup Semi Final means they are.

 

So I asked, does that mean Bradford are more ambitious than us also. They reached a Final of a cup competition.

 

So, no I'm not talking boll ocks. Or is it simply that because it makes the basis of your argument weaker than it already is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apparently Wigan being in a Cup Semi Final means they are.

 

So I asked, does that mean Bradford are more ambitious than us also. They reached a Final of a cup competition.

 

So, no I'm not talking boll ocks. Or is it simply that because it makes the basis of your argument weaker than it already is.

 

What is weak about it? Not really an argument either is it, More of an observation, only oddballs like you try turning it into an arguement. Wiggles is saying that we would have to show tremedous ambition to push for a trophy. Yet boring, dull, unexicting, pathetic little WIgan are doing so without being anywhere near as ambtious as we are meant to be. In fact you mentioning Bradford actually supports my arguement, so thanks for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what you are saying it you can push for a trophy with no ambition, yes?

 

I am suggesting that these teams haven't shown more ambition than us recently hence their league status. Jesus, sound like the house of lords debating the wording of a new bill.

 

Back to Saints, I think are ambitions are healthy for the club eg. stadium increase, youth development and pushing for Europe at some stage which teams like Wigan don't seem to have. Not rubbishing their chance of reaching a final.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is weak about it? Not really an argument either is it, More of an observation, only oddballs like you try turning it into an arguement. Wiggles is saying that we would have to show tremedous ambition to push for a trophy. Yet boring, dull, unexicting, pathetic little WIgan are doing so without being anywhere near as ambtious as we are meant to be. In fact you mentioning Bradford actually supports my arguement, so thanks for that.

 

Sigh, talks himself in circles then resorts to name calling.

 

As per.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sigh, talks himself in circles then resorts to name calling.

 

As per.

 

How so? You're simply proving the case that even Bradford can push for a trophy without showing the incredible ambition we are supposed to be doing. Wigan, boring, dull unambitious little wigan are as well. Dont get upset because by jumping in to try to prove me wrong you've proven me right. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am suggesting that these teams haven't shown more ambition than us recently hence their league status. Jesus, sound like the house of lords debating the wording of a new bill.

 

Back to Saints, I think are ambitions are healthy for the club eg. stadium increase, youth development and pushing for Europe at some stage which teams like Wigan don't seem to have. Not rubbishing their chance of reaching a final.

 

But then said we can push for a trophy rather than Europe and used dull, dreary, unambtious Wigan who are on the cusp of a cup final as an example of how bad it could be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How so? You're simply proving the case that even Bradford can push for a trophy without showing the incredible ambition we are supposed to be doing. Wigan, boring, dull unambitious little wigan are as well. Dont get upset because by jumping in to try to prove me wrong you've proven me right. :lol:

 

It doesn't prove you right at all.

 

The point was (which as always you managed to miss, spectacularly) that cup runs are ultimately a lottery.

 

Bradford didn't get there by showing great ambition. They raised their game on a couple of occasions against bigger sides.

 

Much like how Wigan's second string have done on a number of occasions against weaker sides, up until the last round. Even then there were some players that were some not regular starters playing against Everton.

 

I know your ego cannot handle the prospect of you being wrong, or you not being the almighty Saints Web warrior leaving everyone crying in your wake. But you are wrong, and no I'm not upset.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't prove you right at all.

 

The point was (which as always you managed to miss, spectacularly) that cup runs are ultimately a lottery.

 

Bradford didn't get there by showing great ambition. They raised their game on a couple of occasions against bigger sides.

 

Much like how Wigan's second string have done on a number of occasions against weaker sides, up until the last round. Even then there were some players that were some not regular starters playing against Everton.

 

I know your ego cannot handle the prospect of you being wrong, or you not being the almighty Saints Web warrior leaving everyone crying in your wake. But you are wrong, and no I'm not upset.

 

Yes it does, it proves me 100% right. As you correctly said Bradford aren't as ambitious as us, yet they pushed for a trophy. Neither are boring, unambitious Wigan. The point that you have spectacularly missed is that Wiggles was saying that we are more likely to push for a trophy than Europe in the coming years, with our great ambition as the factor behind it. And as you continue to prove with every failing to grasp the point post you make, you dont need ambition to get to a cup final, just a decent draw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes it does, it proves me 100% right. As you correctly said Bradford aren't as ambitious as us, yet they pushed for a trophy. Neither are boring, unambitious Wigan. The point that you have spectacularly missed is that Wiggles was saying that we are more likely to push for a trophy than Europe in the coming years, with our great ambition as the factor behind it. And as you continue to prove with every failing to grasp the point post you make, you dont need ambition to get to a cup final, just a decent draw.

 

That is what I was saying also, that and a couple of decent performances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is what I was saying also, that and a couple of decent performances.

 

So we agree then. What exactly are you arguing about? Hilariously jumping in to prove me wrong, when you've proven me right and actually agree with me. What was that you were saying about going round in circles? :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes it does, it proves me 100% right. As you correctly said Bradford aren't as ambitious as us, yet they pushed for a trophy. Neither are boring, unambitious Wigan. The point that you have spectacularly missed is that Wiggles was saying that we are more likely to push for a trophy than Europe in the coming years, with our great ambition as the factor behind it. And as you continue to prove with every failing to grasp the point post you make, you dont need ambition to get to a cup final, just a decent draw.

 

I think we have more realistic chance of pushing for a trophy over the next few years rather than Europe. That said its more exciting to be ambitious than to not be (eg. Wigan). Can't fault Cortese in the slightest for achieving his ambitions to date and not via the unsustainable QPR method

 

If you re-read my post you'll see your mistake, I said that realistically we have more chance of winning a trophy BUT it is exciting to have ambitions of pushing Europe etc.

 

Anyway if we win a trophy we would be in Europe anyway so the argument is pointless really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we get to a Wembley semi next season, I guarantee those currently sneeringly dimissing that acheivement as "only a lottery" will demonstrate a remarkable change of opinion.

 

Of course they wont, they'll be hailing it an incredible achievement testement to the ability of the greatest manager we ever had, dubbed the Argentine Alex Ferguson and the relentless ambition and drive of our wonder chairman, in what is undoubtedly the best team we've ever had in the greatest time ever to be a Saints fan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we have more realistic chance of pushing for a trophy over the next few years rather than Europe. That said its more exciting to be ambitious than to not be (eg. Wigan). Can't fault Cortese in the slightest for achieving his ambitions to date and not via the unsustainable QPR method

 

If you re-read my post you'll see your mistake, I said that realistically we have more chance of winning a trophy BUT it is exciting to have ambitions of pushing Europe etc.

 

Anyway if we win a trophy we would be in Europe anyway so the argument is pointless really.

 

Yet Wigan are pushing for a trophy, which you think we will do, without anywhere near the ambiton we are meant to have. Which proves that their boring, unambitous cup run is possible without the incredible excitment of a chairman talking about playing in Europe one day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yet Wigan are pushing for a trophy, which you think we will do, without anywhere near the ambiton we are meant to have. Which proves that their boring, unambitous cup run is possible without the incredible excitment of a chairman talking about playing in Europe one day.

 

Yes well done I don't believe I disputed that. You can add the 4 pointless posts proving whatever point you had to your 18,000. You'll have more posts that Wigan have in attendance soon. Well done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So we agree then. What exactly are you arguing about? Hilariously jumping in to prove me wrong, when you've proven me right and actually agree with me. What was that you were saying about going round in circles? :lol:

 

I wasn't arguing, or jumping in to prove you wrong.

 

I saw a discussion (on a forum, fancy that!), and was just inputting something. Actually asking a question. You were the one that started with the hostile remarks and name calling.

 

Try reel in that ego just for a few moments. Not everyone on here is obsessed with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wasn't arguing, or jumping in to prove you wrong.

 

I saw a discussion (on a forum, fancy that!), and was just inputting something. Actually asking a question. You were the one that started with the hostile remarks and name calling.

 

Try reel in that ego just for a few moments. Not everyone on here is obsessed with you.

 

What name calling? Wasn't it you that started banging on about Bradford, saying i didn't have an answer, was going round in circles before being shown that you had not only backed up my point but agreed with me! That's pretty funny and embarassing for you isn't it. Now going on about me having an ego again, you couldn't make it up. :lol::lol::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes well done I don't believe I disputed that. You can add the 4 pointless posts proving whatever point you had to your 18,000. You'll have more posts that Wigan have in attendance soon. Well done.

 

The point that, boring, dull, unambitious Wigan are doing exactly what you want us to do but when we do it it's going to be exciting, brilliant and driven by our incredible ambition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am suggesting that these teams haven't shown more ambition than us recently hence their league status. Jesus, sound like the house of lords debating the wording of a new bill.

 

Back to Saints, I think are ambitions are healthy for the club eg. stadium increase, youth development and pushing for Europe at some stage which teams like Wigan don't seem to have. Not rubbishing their chance of reaching a final.

 

Our hammering by Chelsea showed our full ambition in the FA Cup and losing to Leeds the way we did in the League Cup?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When did Wigan win the FA cup?

 

You said nothing about winning a trophy, just pushing for one. Isn't a Semi final against a championship side pushing for one? Here let me help you.

 

"I think we have more realistic chance of pushing for a trophy over the next few years rather than Europe. That said its more exciting to be ambitious than to not be (eg. Wigan)."

 

According to you our relentless, exciting ambiton will enable us to match Wigans dull, unambitious performance in the cup this season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets concentrate on staying up this season, if we do this, i think next season NC will want a top 8 finish and give MP enough funds to sign 3-4 players to get us there.

 

If we can add 3-4 quality players in key positions in the summer and keep what we have then i dont see why we cant finish top half next season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good lord man. I believe we are more likely to challenge for a trophy in the next few years as opposed to meeting the european ambition of the chairman, an ambition of which I do not believe my example of Wigan has, prove me otherwise, it is virtually a precedent that every team in a cup has some form of ambition to win it but not every club has ambitions of getting into Europe. Who cares anyway. Staying up this season is vital.

 

Can't be arsed to argue on this anymore as its boring and pointless. Perhaps you should try contributing to a thread rather than trying to rubbish everyone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets concentrate on staying up this season, if we do this, i think next season NC will want a top 8 finish and give MP enough funds to sign 3-4 players to get us there.

 

Agreed, have a big summer (provided we survive) ahead of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good lord man. I believe we are more likely to challenge for a trophy in the next few years as opposed to meeting the european ambition of the chairman, an ambition of which I do not believe my example of Wigan has, prove me otherwise, it is virtually a precedent that every team in a cup has some form of ambition to win it but not every club has ambitions of getting into Europe. Who cares anyway. Staying up this season is vital.

 

Can't be arsed to argue on this anymore as its boring and pointless. Perhaps you should try contributing to a thread rather than trying to rubbish everyone else.

 

Your example of Wigan proves that with a bit of luck and a favourable draw anyone can challenge for a trophy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've no idea, honestly. If we continue to progress, perhaps we can expect a tilt next season (assuming we stay up, add 2,3 possibly 4 steady PL players) and if our current squad continue to learn and develop at this level too, it's possible. They'll have to be a rapid change with our naivety, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we get to a Wembley semi next season, I guarantee those currently sneeringly dimissing that acheivement as "only a lottery" will demonstrate a remarkable change of opinion.

 

Of course it's just a lottery. The teams are selected to play each other by a random method. Earlier on especially, the top teams which draw much lower division teams then field a weaker team and sometimes are knocked out as a result because they have underestimated the opposition. Home advantage is also chosen randomly. Top teams are often chosen to play each other, so that by the later rounds, half of the Premiership teams have alreay been knocked out by their direct rivals. The most successful of those teams might also be playing in European Cup matches simultaneously, so they either have two squads, or field some very tired players.

 

If it wasn't a lottery, then the top few teams from the Premiership would win it every year. Instead, a variety of factors and good old fashioned luck of the draw conspire against that happening every time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course it's just a lottery. The teams are selected to play each other by a random method. Earlier on especially, the top teams which draw much lower division teams then field a weaker team and sometimes are knocked out as a result because they have underestimated the opposition. Home advantage is also chosen randomly. Top teams are often chosen to play each other, so that by the later rounds, half of the Premiership teams have alreay been knocked out by their direct rivals. The most successful of those teams might also be playing in European Cup matches simultaneously, so they either have two squads, or field some very tired players.

 

If it wasn't a lottery, then the top few teams from the Premiership would win it every year. Instead, a variety of factors and good old fashioned luck of the draw conspire against that happening every time.

 

Pompey aside, has this not actually happened in the past ten years?

 

Actually, make that twenty years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pompey aside, has this not actually happened in the past ten years?

 

Actually, make that twenty years.

 

Was just going to pull out the finishing league positions of the last 20 FA Cup Winners, and... bloody hell, Chelsea have won 4 of the last 6 FA Cups ?!!?!?? How did I not notice this ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So anyway

 

2012 Chelsea 6th

2011 Man City 3rd

2010 Chelsea 1st

2009 Chelsea 3rd

2008 Not awarded (8th)

2007 Chelsea 2nd

2006 Liverpool 3rd

2005 Arsenal 2nd

2004 Man U 3rd

2003 Arsenal 2nd

2002 Arsenal 1st

2001 Liverpool 3rd

2000 Chelsea 5th

1999 Man U 1st

1998 Arsenal 1st

1997 Chelsea 6th

1996 Man U 1st

1995 Everton 15th

1994 Man U 1st

1993 Arsenal 10th

 

Now if I'm not mistaken, the definition of a "lottery" is a random drawing, so, ignoring that the Prem had more than 20 teams for a little while, let's assume that in 20 years you'd expect each position to appear once (though that would only become obvious over a much, much, bigger sample). However, 20 years, 20 teams, random choice, each position once.

 

So... in practice instead of an even spread across every position we get...

 

1st - 6

2nd - 3

3rd - 5

4th - 0

5th - 1

6th - 2

plus

8th - 1

10th - 1

15th - 1

 

14 of the 20 winners are from the top 3, only one came from the bottom half, and no-one from outside the top 8 has won the FA Cup in the past 17 seasons.

 

This is not "luck", it's not a lottery, and there is a clear correlation with the better sides.

 

Now if you want to look at finalists it opens up a bit... but I don't. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So anyway

 

2012 Chelsea 6th

2011 Man City 3rd

2010 Chelsea 1st

2009 Chelsea 3rd

2008 Not awarded (8th)

2007 Chelsea 2nd

2006 Liverpool 3rd

2005 Arsenal 2nd

2004 Man U 3rd

2003 Arsenal 2nd

2002 Arsenal 1st

2001 Liverpool 3rd

2000 Chelsea 5th

1999 Man U 1st

1998 Arsenal 1st

1997 Chelsea 6th

1996 Man U 1st

1995 Everton 15th

1994 Man U 1st

1993 Arsenal 10th

 

Now if I'm not mistaken, the definition of a "lottery" is a random drawing, so, ignoring that the Prem had more than 20 teams for a little while, let's assume that in 20 years you'd expect each position to appear once (though that would only become obvious over a much, much, bigger sample). However, 20 years, 20 teams, random choice, each position once.

 

So... in practice instead of an even spread across every position we get...

 

1st - 6

2nd - 3

3rd - 5

4th - 0

5th - 1

6th - 2

plus

8th - 1

10th - 1

15th - 1

 

14 of the 20 winners are from the top 3, only one came from the bottom half, and no-one from outside the top 8 has won the FA Cup in the past 17 seasons.

 

This is not "luck", it's not a lottery, and there is a clear correlation with the better sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree, people simply dont realise how much it will actually cost to get to mid table let alone the European places, and then add the time placed upon it all, one word,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wholeheartedly agree, people simply dont realise how much it will actually cost to get to mid table let alone the European places, and then add the time placed upon it all, one word,

 

We're not too far away from mid-table as it is. 3 points off Stoke who are 11th, and we've needlessly dropped so many points by sh*t goalkeeping and stupid individual errors early in the season. But we've already spent a fortune to get that far, that's for sure. Getting above 11th and challenging for anything above our highest ever PL finish (8th) is where it'll take real effort. Liverpool currently 8th, and God knows they've thrown money at it. Everton are the only club that have any sort of model for how we can do it, but they've almost bankrupted themselves to get so high with no tangible reward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're not too far away from mid-table as it is. 3 points off Stoke who are 11th, and we've needlessly dropped so many points by sh*t goalkeeping and stupid individual errors early in the season. But we've already spent a fortune to get that far, that's for sure. Getting above 11th and challenging for anything above our highest ever PL finish (8th) is where it'll take real effort. Liverpool currently 8th, and God knows they've thrown money at it. Everton are the only club that have any sort of model for how we can do it, but they've almost bankrupted themselves to get so high with no tangible reward.

 

Thats my point mate it ain't never gonna happen and too be fair wouldn't want it to either, I simply dont believe Cortese in what he says in the time limit and the current budget.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats my point mate it ain't never gonna happen and too be fair wouldn't want it to either, I simply dont believe Cortese in what he says in the time limit and the current budget.

I don't even know what Cortese's plans are, but if its anything more than a top 4 finish once in a blue moon it's massively unlikely, however optimistic a CEO he is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

=The9; 14 of the 20 winners are from the top 3, only one came from the bottom half, and no-one from outside the top 8 has won the FA Cup in the past 17 seasons.

 

This is not "luck", it's not a lottery, and there is a clear correlation with the better sides.

 

Now if you want to look at finalists it opens up a bit... but I don't. :D

 

Certainly it opens it up a bit if you consider who the finalists were in the last decade.

 

That includes such high flyers in the World of English football as us, Stoke, The Skates, (twice, as winners and runners up) Cardiff, West Ham, Millwall.

 

So when in ten years of finals, 7 of the teams were not from the top three, or indeed 2 were actually not even in the Premiership, then it is crystal clear that the top teams do not have a monopoly in the FA Cup final at least. And Millwall are in the last four this year too from the Championship.

 

So pardon me if I conclude that the FA Cup is indeed a lottery and I'm happy to be reminded of this when we next find ourselves winning it, if I ever forget that opinion and deny it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...