Todays Games

[Saint Garrett]

We're going down, no doubt about it.

 

The win yesterday and performance is just pointless. We might as well of not won really, we need to get a gap on Wigan, Reading and QPR as they are looking most likely to go down at the moment and we haven't done that.

 

Even though we haven't been in the drop-zone since December now we just don't have any luck whatsoever.

 

Luckless teams get relegated.

 

What an incredibly strange post.

[melmacian_saint]

I don't know but I think this will end up being a last-day battle between Wigan and Sunderland.

 

You don't get poor decisions and last-minute goals your way every week.

[warsash saint]

We're going down, no doubt about it.

 

The win yesterday and performance is just pointless. We might as well of not won really, we need to get a gap on Wigan, Reading and QPR as they are looking most likely to go down at the moment and we haven't done that.

 

Even though we haven't been in the drop-zone since December now we just don't have any luck whatsoever.

 

Luckless teams get relegated.

 

Bedwetter of the day goes to .....

[for_heaven's_Saint]

We're going down, no doubt about it.

 

The win yesterday and performance is just pointless. We might as well of not won really, we need to get a gap on Wigan, Reading and QPR as they are looking most likely to go down at the moment and we haven't done that.

 

Even though we haven't been in the drop-zone since December now we just don't have any luck whatsoever.

 

Luckless teams get relegated.

 

F*ck me, talk about a drama queen.

[adrian lord]

Wish we could play a weakened Liverpool team every week

 

Maybe alternate with that weakened Citeh team we faced a few weeks back?

[David Strover]

We're going down, no doubt about it.

 

The win yesterday and performance is just pointless. We might as well of not won really, we need to get a gap on Wigan, Reading and QPR as they are looking most likely to go down at the moment and we haven't done that.

 

Even though we haven't been in the drop-zone since December now we just don't have any luck whatsoever.

 

Luckless teams get relegated.

 

We have points and wins on the board - those below us, despite what you may think, have fewer and have to catch us up - so far they haven't.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

We have points and wins on the board - those below us, despite what you may think, have fewer and have to catch us up - so far they haven't.

 

Errr, I didn't say that .

[Glasgow_Saint]

Maybe alternate with that weakened Citeh team we faced a few weeks back?

 

Cheeky

[Hedgehog]

If the ref didn't see that then he is simply unfit to be a referee. End of.

 

That could have ended Haidara's career. The FA need to haul him in over that and suspend him.

 

Even if he wasn't shown a card for that then why wasn't he shown a yellow for hanball a few seconds on from that tackle. Surely the ref couldn't have missed both ??

[Appy]

Wouldn't have to be so negative if we didn't bottle it when we played Wigan away.....

 

Yeah, could add a few more to that list.

[S-Clarke]

We're going down, no doubt about it.

 

The win yesterday and performance is just pointless. We might as well of not won really, we need to get a gap on Wigan, Reading and QPR as they are looking most likely to go down at the moment and we haven't done that.

 

Even though we haven't been in the drop-zone since December now we just don't have any luck whatsoever.

 

Luckless teams get relegated.

 

Post of the year, for all the wrong reasons!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Wigan villa last day.

 

still think that helps us.

 

they can't both win and be safe.

[Dark Munster]

We're going down, no doubt about it.

 

The win yesterday and performance is just pointless. We might as well of not won really, we need to get a gap on Wigan, Reading and QPR as they are looking most likely to go down at the moment and we haven't done that.

 

Even though we haven't been in the drop-zone since December now we just don't have any luck whatsoever.

 

Luckless teams get relegated.

[Chez]

Wouldn't have to be so negative if we didn't bottle it when we played Wigan away.....

 

aye? We didn't bottle it at all, Wigan just got lucky. We actually showed great bottle to come back from behind, pass them to death and score two goals. We don't lack bottle.

[Dalek2003]

We're going down, no doubt about it.

 

The win yesterday and performance is just pointless. We might as well of not won really, we need to get a gap on Wigan, Reading and QPR as they are looking most likely to go down at the moment and we haven't done that.

 

Even though we haven't been in the drop-zone since December now we just don't have any luck whatsoever.

 

Luckless teams get relegated.

 

Jeez this one even trumps me ! Talk about being fatalistic.

 

Yes, it is going to be one hell of a 'bun fight', but lets get stuck in and see where we end up.

[fareham saint phil]

The only team in red and white going down this year is sunderland, they were awful and clueless.

 

Wigan's win was annoying but not the end of the world

 

Yesterday our win showed the class we have and the team spirit

[Shroppie]

Just seen that tackle.

 

If Mark Halsey isn´t sidelined the rest of the season it´s a disgrace.

First task for a referee is always protect the players. If they fail so miserable they should not be out there.

 

 

Wonder if it´s okay to vomit a bit over that non-call??

 

What really angers me is football's stubborn refusal to adopt a video ref as in Rugby.

 

If an equivalent incident to that tackle had happened in a Rugby match, and the red had not had a clear view, or was unsure, simple questions to the video ref would clear it up. Foul or no foul? Dangerous play? What punishment recommended? Was that handball?

 

Anything that helps get things right should be used. So much rides on it. How will a relegated team feel if Wigan survive by one point?

[The Kraken]

What really angers me is football's stubborn refusal to adopt a video ref as in Rugby.

 

If an equivalent incident to that tackle had happened in a Rugby match, and the red had not had a clear view, or was unsure, simple questions to the video ref would clear it up. Foul or no foul? Dangerous play? What punishment recommended? Was that handball?

 

Anything that helps get things right should be used. So much rides on it. How will a relegated team feel if Wigan survive by one point?

 

I'm absolutely not in favour of video replays being used in such a way. Other sports have natural break points to analyse the video, football doesn't and IMO would be ruined as a spectacle if there were stops in play to check the TV.

 

What i am in favour of is video evidence being used retrospectively to punish really bad fouls, and also for diving. McManaman deserves at least a 3 game ban for that challenge; the stupid thing is that had he been booked, then there would be no further action as the referee had already been deemed to have taken action. Which is crazy; if the ref agrees that he got it wrong should have given a red and not a yellow (and vice versa) then there should be a process for that to happen.

[shurlock]

I'm absolutely not in favour of video replays being used in such a way. Other sports have natural break points to analyse the video, football doesn't and IMO would be ruined as a spectacle if there were stops in play to check the TV.

 

What i am in favour of is video evidence being used retrospectively to punish really bad fouls, and also for diving. McManaman deserves at least a 3 game ban for that challenge; the stupid thing is that had he been booked, then there would be no further action as the referee had already been deemed to have taken action. Which is crazy; if the ref agrees that he got it wrong should have given a red and not a yellow (and vice versa) then there should be a process for that to happen.

 

There are plenty of breaks - for one goals could be automatically reviewed without harming the flow of the game.

[Saint Garrett]

Thing is it probably would take 5 seconds for 'someone upstairs' to tell the ref what has actually happened. Probably about the same amount of time as it takes then the ref consults the lino. I don't think computers should rule football like it does other sports, but little things which can be used, should be.....and definitely agree with retrospective bans etc. Some ridiculous challenges are let go because the ref may have not seen it or not seen the whole thing. It happens when a player is sent off and shouldn't have been so why shouldn't it work the other way round.

[Shroppie]

I'm absolutely not in favour of video replays being used in such a way. Other sports have natural break points to analyse the video, football doesn't and IMO would be ruined as a spectacle if there were stops in play to check the TV.

 

There was a 5 minute break for the injury today.

[The Kraken]

There are plenty of breaks - for one goals could be automatically reviewed without harming the flow of the game.

 

Not nearly enough IMO. And its a massive can of worms as to how you put the limit of which decisions are to be reviewed or not; i think it would be open to abuse. I'm totally not in favour of it, I never will be in favour of it, and I think FIFA have got it spot on by only allowing technology (goal line) that works in real time and doesn't rely on a delayed referral syste.

[The Kraken]

There was a 5 minute break for the injury today.

 

Yes, for some incidents there is a break in play. For others there aren't, and introducing breaks would IMO distract from the game too much.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Yes, for some incidents there is a break in play. For others there aren't, and introducing breaks would IMO distract from the game too much.

 

Agreed plus, while 99.99% of people would agreed that today's incident was a straight red, most controversial decisions are really subjective so having a video replay doesn't actually convince everyone that the right call was made

[sammysaint]

Wigan winning today, has deffo increased our chances of going down from our run in, however i think chelsea with a game monday and then thursday means there weaken there squad, and we will get a draw vs them which should keep wigan needing to win 2 games to catch us, or 1 win 2 draws.

[The Kraken]

Agreed plus, while 99.99% of people would agreed that today's incident was a straight red, most controversial decisions are really subjective so having a video replay doesn't actually convince everyone that the right call was made

 

Very true. How often do we see pundits on Sky and MOTD go through review after review and still have differing opinions of an incident? I can't see any other scenario other than my belief that video replays would lead to a total and utter mess, and completely detract from a game that relies upon a natural flow.

[RobM]

There are plenty of breaks - for one goals could be automatically reviewed without harming the flow of the game.

 

Like every time a bad decision is made and the players go mental, that disrupts the game just as much as a referee deciding to stop the game.

[SaintBobby]

Back on topic, we are now 6th favourites for the drop - even after Wigan's win.

 

We're at 6/1 - 7/1 with most bookies.

 

The relegation odds on the betfair exchange (as decimals, showing how much you'd walk away with if you placed £1 on a team being relegated) are as follows:

 

Reading £1.09

QPR £1.21

Wigan £2.08

Villa £2.86

Sunderland £4.80

Saints £8.03

West Ham £16.70

Norwich £17.60

Newcastle £20.00

Stoke £27.00

 

others are at 100/1 or longer

[Sheaf Saint]

I'm absolutely not in favour of video replays being used in such a way. Other sports have natural break points to analyse the video, football doesn't and IMO would be ruined as a spectacle if there were stops in play to check the TV.

 

How about a system such as in Tennis, where each player has a set amount of challenges. Lets say each team is given three challenges, and if a player/team thinks the ref has got something wrong or missed something completely, the captain can approach the ref and use one of their allotted challenges. 20-second break while the fourth official checks the TV replays and on we go. It would be a much shorter stoppage than if the whole team goes mental and surrounds the ref, resulting in him dishing out some yellow cards. Although I guess that's part of the drama isn't it.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Back on topic, we are now 6th favourites for the drop - even after Wigan's win.

 

We're at 6/1 - 7/1 with most bookies.

 

The relegation odds on the betfair exchange (as decimals, showing how much you'd walk away with if you placed £1 on a team being relegated) are as follows:

 

Reading £1.09

QPR £1.21

Wigan £2.08

Villa £2.86

Sunderland £4.80

Saints £8.03

West Ham £16.70

Norwich £17.60

Newcastle £20.00

Stoke £27.00

 

others are at 100/1 or longer

 

interesting the difference there between us and Sunderland.

 

Can't believe they're even offering odds on Wet Spam........

[The Kraken]

How about a system such as in Tennis, where each player has a set amount of challenges. Lets say each team is given three challenges, and if a player/team thinks the ref has got something wrong or missed something completely, the captain can approach the ref and use one of their allotted challenges. 20-second break while the fourth official checks the TV replays and on we go. It would be a much shorter stoppage than if the whole team goes mental and surrounds the ref, resulting in him dishing out some yellow cards. Although I guess that's part of the drama isn't it.

 

I've heard that suggested before, and I think it makes more sense than a free for all video system. I'm just not in favour of video at all, perhaps its not the most logical of viewpoints but I'm totally against it, and I don't think my viewpoint can be reversed. I thoroughly believe that something should be done about the abuse of referees by players, mind. I just don't think video referral is the way to achieve that. Goal-line technology is a good thing, and I welcome that. And I'd welcome any other technology that doesn't require the game to be halted. But video; not for me.

[max_saints]

thing about the 'tennis system' is that when the challenge is called, the video replay will show very clearly in black or white whether the ball was in or out. but in football, whether tackles are deemed fair or not is really subjective to the individual and like kraken has said would only cause more problems. just my opinion

[kpturner]

Three points at Norwich and Reading would be nice

 

I am pretty sure we won't be allowed to play Norwich for a third time this season

[NickG]

Back on topic, we are now 6th favourites for the drop - even after Wigan's win.

 

We're at 6/1 - 7/1 with most bookies.

 

The relegation odds on the betfair exchange (as decimals, showing how much you'd walk away with if you placed £1 on a team being relegated) are as follows:

 

Reading £1.09

QPR £1.21

Wigan £2.08

Villa £2.86

Sunderland £4.80

Saints £8.03

West Ham £16.70

Norwich £17.60

Newcastle £20.00

Stoke £27.00

 

others are at 100/1 or longer

 

Surprised at West Ham's - particularly compared with Newcastle.

 

(Guess Man U are £16.70? )

[Mowgli]

Was please with Wigan winning. It gives us one more team (Newcastle) that we can potentially overtake. Not worried about the teams below us at all.

[Whitey Grandad]

thing about the 'tennis system' is that when the challenge is called, the video replay will show very clearly in black or white whether the ball was in or out. but in football, whether tackles are deemed fair or not is really subjective to the individual and like kraken has said would only cause more problems. just my opinion

Quite right, but even in tennis the ball will bounce right on the edge of the line and who is to say that the machine is more accurate than a human?

[hutch]

I'm absolutely not in favour of video replays being used in such a way. Other sports have natural break points to analyse the video, football doesn't and IMO would be ruined as a spectacle if there were stops in play to check the TV.

 

What i am in favour of is video evidence being used retrospectively to punish really bad fouls, and also for diving. McManaman deserves at least a 3 game ban for that challenge; the stupid thing is that had he been booked, then there would be no further action as the referee had already been deemed to have taken action. Which is crazy; if the ref agrees that he got it wrong should have given a red and not a yellow (and vice versa) then there should be a process for that to happen.

I think in practical terms I agree with Kracken, irrespective of the rights and wrongs. It just wouldn't fit in with the nature of a football match as we know it.

 

I do however think that there should be a much more open and accessible complaint/review process for ref's performances open to clubs and or players. The current situation to fine Alex Ferguson every couple of weeks for having the cheek to say that the ref was carp, and letting so-called professional refs off scot-free week-in week-out for some absolutely diabolical decisions is outrageous in this day and age, and video footage could go a long way towards bringing it kicking and screaming into last century.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I think in practical terms I agree with Kracken, irrespective of the rights and wrongs. It just wouldn't fit in with the nature of a football match as we know it.

 

I do however think that there should be a much more open and accessible complaint/review process for ref's performances open to clubs and or players. The current situation to fine Alex Ferguson every couple of weeks for having the cheek to say that the ref was carp, and letting so-called professional refs off scot-free week-in week-out for some absolutely diabolical decisions is outrageous in this day and age, and video footage could go a long way towards bringing it kicking and screaming into last century.

 

I quite agree. I'd be fuming if I was Pardew, a potentially career-ending challenge (I don't necessarily think it was malicious, but dangerous and reckless undoubtedly) & and a blatant handball giving a goal away - neither spotted.

 

Fair Pards, he was far more restrained post-match than I would have been, I'd probably have been much more akin to John Carver. The joke is, if he went off on one, it would be him, not the ref (Halsey?) that would be fined and punished.

 

I appreciate it is a hard job to ref a game, I find it bizarre that a game like football has less refs than sports such as Tennis, played on a smaller area, with less players. Refs need more help. I don't doubt that the majority of their cock-ups are just honest mistakes. They have a split-second to make a call, and not the benefit of the endless slow-mo replays that help us make a decision and criticise the ref.

 

I think video refs wouldn't be as damaging as some suggest. There was what, a 5 minute interlude yesterday when Haidara was receiving treatment, a video ref could easily have made a call in that time, heck the ref could have gone and got a cuppa, sat down and analysed it from every angle. In a large number of contentious calls, there is an inevitable break in play where players crowd the ref and protest (fruitlessly anyway) their case -again, 10 seconds wait on a replay isn't going to be that big a difference really.

 

I do think refs need to be more accountable, such poor performances should incur reprimands from their bosses. But, I also have to commend Halsey (I think it was him) for admitting, he simply could not see the challenge, due to a player blocking his view. If you can't see it, you really can't give it. Hence the refs needing as much help as possible.

 

Ofcourse, these are just my humble thoughts on the matter.

[The Kraken]

MOTD2 showed Halsey's position and it's true, his view was obscured by another player. That said, the linesman was about 15 yards away and had a perfectly good side view of the foul, yet didn't even flag for anything. Shocking officiating.

[sandwichsaint]

I quite agree. I'd be fuming if I was Pardew, a potentially career-ending challenge (I don't necessarily think it was malicious, but dangerous and reckless undoubtedly) & and a blatant handball giving a goal away - neither spotted.

 

Fair Pards, he was far more restrained post-match than I would have been, I'd probably have been much more akin to John Carver. The joke is, if he went off on one, it would be him, not the ref (Halsey?) that would be fined and punished.

 

I appreciate it is a hard job to ref a game, I find it bizarre that a game like football has less refs than sports such as Tennis, played on a smaller area, with less players. Refs need more help. I don't doubt that the majority of their cock-ups are just honest mistakes. They have a split-second to make a call, and not the benefit of the endless slow-mo replays that help us make a decision and criticise the ref.

 

I think video refs wouldn't be as damaging as some suggest. There was what, a 5 minute interlude yesterday when Haidara was receiving treatment, a video ref could easily have made a call in that time, heck the ref could have gone and got a cuppa, sat down and analysed it from every angle. In a large number of contentious calls, there is an inevitable break in play where players crowd the ref and protest (fruitlessly anyway) their case -again, 10 seconds wait on a replay isn't going to be that big a difference really.

 

I do think refs need to be more accountable, such poor performances should incur reprimands from their bosses. But, I also have to commend Halsey (I think it was him) for admitting, he simply could not see the challenge, due to a player blocking his view. If you can't see it, you really can't give it. Hence the refs needing as much help as possible.

 

Ofcourse, these are just my humble thoughts on the matter.

 

Agree totally but what I don't get is what is the linesman's jurisdiction in these cases? The lino on Newcastle's left back would have had a good view, and to a lesser extent the linesman on the opposite side would also have seen it?

 

We had exactly the same situation on Saturday, Coutinho followed through with a sneaky nasty one on Clyne literally about three steps behind the refs back, the ref couldn't see it (you can argue about his position but on a point of fact he couldn't see it), the linesman on the Kingsland side had full view of it from about 30 metres away, again he didn't bring the ref's attention to it.

 

Are these linesmen slacking on the job or do they not have power to intervene?

[sandwichsaint]

MOTD2 showed Halsey's position and it's true, his view was obscured by another player. That said, the linesman was about 15 yards away and had a perfectly good side view of the foul, yet didn't even flag for anything. Shocking officiating.

 

LOL! Always read to the end of a thread before posting a reply.

[Saint Garrett]

Graham Poll was on Talksport this morning when I was driving to work. Made some interesting points about you can't give it if you don't see it.

 

He went on to ask why has he not been able to see it. If you don't see 1 thing, you can understand it, 2 things very unlucky, but 3 things then you seriously have to question the ref's movement and positioning. He went on to say that refs are told to run diagonally so they don't miss these things. He also questioned whether it was realistic for a 50 yr old to be able to keep up with the players now on show, with all the sports science and everything players are just getting quicker and stamina is as good as it has ever been. Some interesting points f'sure.

[Shroppie]

Agree totally but what I don't get is what is the linesman's jurisdiction in these cases? The lino on Newcastle's left back would have had a good view, and to a lesser extent the linesman on the opposite side would also have seen it?

 

We had exactly the same situation on Saturday, Coutinho followed through with a sneaky nasty one on Clyne literally about three steps behind the refs back, the ref couldn't see it (you can argue about his position but on a point of fact he couldn't see it), the linesman on the Kingsland side had full view of it from about 30 metres away, again he didn't bring the ref's attention to it.

 

Are these linesmen slacking on the job or do they not have power to intervene?

 

Again, I think Rugby have got it right. The touch judges can bring anything to the ref's attention, even minutes after it happened. With the radio contact in football that should be easy, but I think many assistants take the attitude that they don't want to commit themselves and leave it to the ref.

 

I don't like the tennis/cricket appeals system. The control should stay with the ref. With respect to others' views, I still think the idea that if the ref misses something, he can't give it, is not good enough with the stakes as high as they are. But it would take a lot to a) get video refs introduced and b) change the culture so that a ref who is unsure can refer back at the next break in play and use all the technology available to get a fair result.

[David Strover]

Actually you're all missing the point.

 

In team sports where video reviews are used it is the senior official (two on-ice referees in ice-hockey for instance) who makes the decision as to whether it is reviewed.

 

Therefore in the Wigan vs Newcastle game the referee, who by his own admission, couldn't see the challenge would have naturally called for a review. For the winning goal perhaps he could have got advice from the linesman or fourth official who might say 'there may have been a handball in the build up' but ultimately the referee makes the final decision.

 

It doesn't mean every single call is reviewed and in my fantasy world, managers, club officials and players would have no say in it - unless of course they are the home side and in the top four.... it could work, it just needs a good, sensible, well worked-out system.

 

Not bloomin' impossible - in my opinion.

[Shroppie]

Actually you're all missing the point.

 

In team sports where video reviews are used it is the senior official (two on-ice referees in ice-hockey for instance) who makes the decision as to whether it is reviewed.

 

Therefore in the Wigan vs Newcastle game the referee, who by his own admission, couldn't see the challenge would have naturally called for a review. For the winning goal perhaps he could have got advice from the linesman or fourth official who might say 'there may have been a handball in the build up' but ultimately the referee makes the final decision.

 

It doesn't mean every single call is reviewed and in my fantasy world, managers, club officials and players would have no say in it - unless of course they are the home side and in the top four.... it could work, it just needs a good, sensible, well worked-out system.

 

Not bloomin' impossible - in my opinion.

 

Agreed, especially that bit.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Again, I think Rugby have got it right. The touch judges can bring anything to the ref's attention, even minutes after it happened. With the radio contact in football that should be easy, but I think many assistants take the attitude that they don't want to commit themselves and leave it to the ref.

 

I don't like the tennis/cricket appeals system. The control should stay with the ref. With respect to others' views, I still think the idea that if the ref misses something, he can't give it, is not good enough with the stakes as high as they are. But it would take a lot to a) get video refs introduced and b) change the culture so that a ref who is unsure can refer back at the next break in play and use all the technology available to get a fair result.

 

This is kind of my point about the ratio of officials to players/size of pitch.

 

Compared to tennis it's simply staggering. As many point out, linesmen seem either incapable or unwilling to intervene, effectively leaving one referee trying to officiate 22 players on a pitch often around 60m x 100m. It's crazy. Without extra support they are bound to miss things, even the very best referees are going to miss things. It's just inevitable.

 

UEFA have been using these extra officials in Europa League games the last few years, but they are not allowed to bring things to the refs attention, making them about as useful as a fishnet condom.

[OttawaSaint]

In ice hockey, only certain things can be reviewed. If a goal is called on the ice then the review has to conclusively show that it didn't go in or the call on the ice stands.

[Saint Garrett]

In field hockey, while the ref at the other end can advise the other, they can't actually give a decision in the other ref's final quarter.

[Whitey Grandad]

The linesmen (I can never get to grips with calling them assistant referees) can certainly have an input regarding serious foul play and violent conduct, but if the referee doesn't see it they will have to fill out the incident report. The fourth official cannot rule on technical decisions but can have a say on matters of indiscipline.

[Saint Garrett]

I see Mcmanaman has escaped disciplinary action...disgrace IMO. Should have been banned for 3 games atleast.