Saints financial figures

[trousers]

@solentsport: We can reaveal that #saintsfc made net profit of just under £1m in 1st 6 months back in Premier league...more coming.....

 

@solentsport: CONT...#saintsfc - total revenue (excl player trading) nearly trebled to over £33m in 6 months July-Dec 2012

 

@solentsport: CONT...#saintsfc player wages accounted for 59% of turnover....Investment to take club from league 1 to Prem- nearly £38m.

 

@solentsport: CONT..#saintsfc £38m investment came from shareholder loans and effectively written off by estate of Markus Liebherr

 

@solentsport: CONT...#saintsfc say promotion from champ to Prem achieved for underlying loss of £2.4m

 

@solentsport: CONT....#saintsfc Chairman Nicola Cortese says he's against proposed Premier league wage cap structure

[brmbrm]

Sorry for my ignorance, but i thought SFC were not a PLC but 100% privately owned, so the financial figures are basically irrelevant?

 

isn't it a bit like me saying " i earned blah, I spent blah blah, therefore over the year i am blah"

 

I'd love it if we were 100% fan-owned, but we are 0% fan owned (unless you count the Liebher's as fans....)

[JackanorySFC]

Sorry for my ignorance, but i thought SFC were not a PLC but 100% privately owned, so the financial figures are basically irrelevant?

 

isn't it a bit like me saying " i earned blah, I spent blah blah, therefore over the year i am blah"

 

I'd love it if we were 100% fan-owned, but we are 0% fan owned (unless you count the Liebher's as fans....)

 

Jeez, first response to an actually very positive set of figures is a moan, seriously did you even read the numbers?

 

Wages to turnover a very very respectable level and the Liebherrs effectively writing off the cost of getting us in the Premier league. Absolutely nothing to moan at here.

[Joey-deacons-left-nut]

We may be privately owned but we have to disclose our accounts under league rules.

[CB Fry]

Jeez, first response to an actually very positive set of figures is a moan, seriously did you even read the numbers?

 

Wages to turnover a very very respectable level and the Liebherrs effectively writing off the cost of getting us in the Premier league. Absolutely nothing to moan at here.

 

 

 

Correct. 60% is excellent. Lets hope the club stick with that.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Very positive results, got to say I'm actually surprised, thought wages would be higher. Good going NC and Southampton.

[Turkish]

Vey good news, like a lot of people I was expecting a loss. Round of applause for the chairman on this one.

[John B]

At a first glance they seem very positive and things will look good if we do not get relegated as more cash is on offer next season

[ericofarabia]

Very positive results, got to say I'm actually surprised, thought wages would be higher. Good going NC and Southampton.

 

Me too!!

 

so plenty of spare cash for the stadium expansion

[JRM]

Vey good news, like a lot of people I was expecting a loss. Round of applause for the chairman on this one.

 

do those figures include transfer fees ? and how is the BVI loan accounted for as part of that ?

[alpine_saint]

Jeez, first response to an actually very positive set of figures is a moan, seriously did you even read the numbers?

 

Wages to turnover a very very respectable level and the Liebherrs effectively writing off the cost of getting us in the Premier league. Absolutely nothing to moan at here.

 

Well yes, this, BUT this situation will be switched into full reverse if we get relegated this season. I cant see the Liebherrs stumpfing up another 38m with no return.......

[John B]

Well yes, this, BUT this situation will be switched into full reverse if we get relegated this season. I cant see the Liebherrs stumpfing up another 38m with no return.......

 

Thats the key point relegation will be a disaster financially

[Turkish]

do those figures include transfer fees ? and how is the BVI loan accounted for as part of that ?

 

I've just noticed they don't, so not as good as it appears at all.

[trousers]

Well yes, this, BUT this situation will be switched into full reverse if we get relegated this season. I cant see the Liebherrs stumpfing up another 38m with no return.......

 

What do you mean by "full reverse"? The headline figure is that we made a c.£1m profit in first 6 months of the premier league. For comparison, how much loss do your figures show us making in first 6 months of the championship next season?

[Bucks Saint]

Bless those booking fees.

[wild-saint]

I've just noticed they don't, so not as good as it appears at all.

 

where does it say that exactly?

 

it says we made a nett profit. by definition nett profit is total revenue - ALL costs.

 

whilst it is stated that revenue is up to 33m excluding player trading, it certainly doesnt state that net profit was calculated without including the cost of transfers. otherwise it wouldnt be Net profit but described as profit before player trading maybe?

 

in addittion as a the saints are a owned by a ltd company then they are bound by uk company law and would have to submit audited accounts.

 

so if we made a Net profit of £1million then we did so after player trading. well thats my understanding anyway. Solent could be posting duff infor i guess

[JRM]

I've just noticed they don't, so not as good as it appears at all.

 

I think that's the key to understand really as otherwise talk of making profit is misguided.

the concept of Liebherrs "writing off" debt is also misleading , they can convert loan to equity and feel comfortable that the asset they own is worth several times more what they paid for it. selling would most likely still see them make an overall profit.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Vey good news, like a lot of people I was expecting a loss. Round of applause for the chairman on this one.

 

And no sarcasm in sight

[trousers]

@bigadamsport: Great on @solentsport earlier, breaking #saintsfc financial figures - a good read, especially Cortese's objection to PL wage cap proposals

[dellboypete]

compared to some other prem figures released this week - eg qpr = they are "sensational" - ok then - very encouraging

[trousers]

@NabilHassan79: #saintsfc release annual figures, few highlights: Club wages nearly doubled in 2012 to £28.7m. Club shelled out £5.3m in bonuses last year.

[St Marco]

Can't be many clubs in the pl making profit these days?

[beatlesaint]

Well yes, this, BUT this situation will be switched into full reverse if we get relegated this season. I cant see the Liebherrs stumpfing up another 38m with no return.......

 

Why do you think they would have to "stump up anpother 38m" out of interest ?

Dont forget we would have 4 years of parachute payments - the first two years of which are substantial - if the worst did happen.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

@NabilHassan79: #saintsfc release annual figures, few highlights: Club wages nearly doubled in 2012 to £28.7m. Club shelled out £5.3m in bonuses last year.

 

So how much do you think we've paid in transfers then last Summer? Going by turnover and net profit I would say we've paid out about £14m...

[JRM]

another point that needs clarifying is this "profit" is referred to in context of "first 6 months back in premier league" but these accounts should be for whole of 2012 so what's the actual true figure including transfers ?

[trousers]

@TonyHusbandBBC: #saintsfc Chairman Cortese:"..each club should continue to be permitted to run their business- including their pay rolls as they see fit."

[trousers]

@TonyHusbandBBC: #saintsfc Training ground improvements have been funded by a "low interest" loan, currently standing at £3.8m in end of year accounts.

[dronskisaint]

There's no bad news in these but they are necessarily only the headlines. Those who are trying to itemise the accounts and identify gaps physically cannot see anything there because you're not looking at a balance sheet.

 

If a loan has been taken out (and I'm not doubting it given the dating of the PL payout) then it will have been quantified within the profitability figure as being an interest payment structure within the relevant dates. It's been in the public domain for a couple of seasons (I think) that the loan has been converted to share capital but that, too, balances against the perceived worth....a little more now than when ML/NC purchased it!

[Sour Mash]

Anyone know where the figures can be viewed in their entirety?

[Saint Garrett]

Doubt the club release financial statements as per. But these headlines are promising despite being a little misleading perhaps.

[once_bitterne]

Doubt the club release financial statements as per. But these headlines are promising despite being a little misleading perhaps.

 

Yes they will. They are required to by law.

[Turkish]

@TonyHusbandBBC: #saintsfc Training ground improvements have been funded by a "low interest" loan, currently standing at £3.8m in end of year accounts.

 

maybe that explains the BVI loan?

[Colinjb]

So.

 

Continued underwriting of investment by the Leibherr estate, an operating profit in the first six months of premier league football and continued promotion up to the premier league achieved for £2.4 million net spend.

 

Much better then expected.... though now we are suckling on the Premier League teat we must stay there. Confident we would still be in a strong position to fight back should the worst happen though.

[ottery st mary]

Was there ever a BVI loan?

 

Did I miss the evidence to show there was a loan?

 

I have seen many mentions of a big loan in respect of BVI:rolleyes:

[tajjuk]

Well if that is a 'net profit' it should include transfer fees, so without spending nearly £30 million on players we would have had a very decent profit.

 

With relegation wages should drop, and obviously premiership money would drop but we would have parachute payments.

 

If we got to the premier league from the championship for a loss of £2.7 million, surely we could do it again with the additional parachute payments. Relefation would give us a financial hit but it wouldn't be that bad.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Just an idle thought - could the BVI loan have been taken out to facilitate NC's plans to buy the club from the Liebherr's some time in the near future?

[JackanorySFC]

So.

 

Continued underwriting of investment by the Leibherr estate, an operating profit in the first six months of premier league football and continued promotion up to the premier league achieved for £2.4 million net spend.

 

Much better then expected.... though now we are suckling on the Premier League teat we must stay there. Confident we would still be in a strong position to fight back should the worst happen though.

 

This pretty much sums it up for me. Fair play to the Liebherrs/ Cortese, achieving Premier league football for a net outlay of £2m is awesome business. You only have to compare this to QPR's barmy results released earlier this week to see we are doing things the right way.

[stevegrant]

Interesting that these figures have been released before the publication of the 2011/12 accounts. I assume it's a Premier League rule that six-monthly figures have to be released, we've certainly never revealed half-year profit/loss figures before under the current regime.

 

All in all, looks fairly promising. It's worth bearing in mind the "profit" figure in no way relates to the cashflow of the business. Player transfer fees are accounted for evenly over the course of the player's contract rather than in one big hit when the player first signs for the club. If we assume that most new signings will be on an average of a 4-year contract, that means that only around an eighth of our transfer spending will have been accounted for in the June to December figures.

[Dig Dig]

Just an idle thought - could the BVI loan have been taken out to facilitate NC's plans to buy the club from the Liebherr's some time in the near future?

 

He'd need about 50M. He wouldn't raise that through loans.

 

The loan seems to be for the training ground.

 

Do you even know of these suppossed plans to buy the club? You've written it as if it's common knowledge

[Colinjb]

Just an idle thought - could the BVI loan have been taken out to facilitate NC's plans to buy the club from the Liebherr's some time in the near future?

 

Hmmmmm, interesting......

 

Wonder how much the Leibherr estate value us at though? Certainly more then then the indicated loan value of 10 million pounds I would expect. I doubt NC has the means to do this, unless his other business contacts have that kind of wealth and are feeling generous.

[Lets B Avenue]

Interesting that these figures have been released before the publication of the 2011/12 accounts. I assume it's a Premier League rule that six-monthly figures have to be released, we've certainly never revealed half-year profit/loss figures before under the current regime.

 

All in all, looks fairly promising. It's worth bearing in mind the "profit" figure in no way relates to the cashflow of the business. Player transfer fees are accounted for evenly over the course of the player's contract rather than in one big hit when the player first signs for the club. If we assume that most new signings will be on an average of a 4-year contract, that means that only around an eighth of our transfer spending will have been accounted for in the June to December figures.

 

I look forward to your column in tomorrows Telegraph about all this. Will it be in the Business Section?

[JackanorySFC]

Interesting that these figures have been released before the publication of the 2011/12 accounts. I assume it's a Premier League rule that six-monthly figures have to be released, we've certainly never revealed half-year profit/loss figures before under the current regime.

 

All in all, looks fairly promising. It's worth bearing in mind the "profit" figure in no way relates to the cashflow of the business. Player transfer fees are accounted for evenly over the course of the player's contract rather than in one big hit when the player first signs for the club. If we assume that most new signings will be on an average of a 4-year contract, that means that only around an eighth of our transfer spending will have been accounted for in the June to December figures.

 

Interesting info that Steve, thanks. Makes the results even more positive IMO as I thought they didn't include transfers at all, seeing as those purchases are "assets" I think this way of accounting for them is pretty fair actually.

[stevegrant]

Interesting info that Steve, thanks. Makes the results even more positive IMO as I thought they didn't include transfers at all, seeing as those purchases are "assets" I think this way of accounting for them is pretty fair actually.

Yeah, when you look at it from a business perspective it makes complete sense. Of course if you're trying to protect your arse, you can do a Peter Storrie valuation of your playing assets and pluck a wildly inaccurate and high figure out of thin air, but for real accounting purposes, a player's registration is worth exactly zero to the club once his contract expires so to depreciate his value evenly over the period of his contract is entirely logical.

[Whitey Grandad]

Well if that is a 'net profit' it should include transfer fees, so without spending nearly £30 million on players we would have had a very decent profit.

 

With relegation wages should drop, and obviously premiership money would drop but we would have parachute payments.

 

If we got to the premier league from the championship for a loss of £2.7 million, surely we could do it again with the additional parachute payments. Relefation would give us a financial hit but it wouldn't be that bad.

 

Once bought, a player's value is capitalised and written down over the length of his contract so the transfer fee paid is not completely 'lost' to the company because its assets are increased by the acquisition of the player.

[shirleysfc]

maybe that explains the BVI loan?

 

Seems a reasonable assumption.

[shirleysfc]

Just an idle thought - could the BVI loan have been taken out to facilitate NC's plans to buy the club from the Liebherr's some time in the near future?

 

Lol! This place would go into meltdon if that was the case!!

[hutch]

Lol! This place would go into meltdon if that was the case!!

But wouldn't that make us the biggest "fan-owned" club on the South Coast?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

where does it say that exactly?

 

it says we made a nett profit. by definition nett profit is total revenue - ALL costs.

 

whilst it is stated that revenue is up to 33m excluding player trading, it certainly doesnt state that net profit was calculated without including the cost of transfers. otherwise it wouldnt be Net profit but described as profit before player trading maybe?

 

in addittion as a the saints are a owned by a ltd company then they are bound by uk company law and would have to submit audited accounts.

 

so if we made a Net profit of £1million then we did so after player trading. well thats my understanding anyway. Solent could be posting duff infor i guess

 

Fees paid for players won't be included in costs as it is spend on a fixed asset. The figures will include an element of player transfer fees that is the depreciation on tose assets e.g. If Ramirez cost £15m and is on a 5 year contract then £3m of that cost gets charged to the profit and loss account each year.

 

On first inspection these figures are very good and certainly don't tally with any of the more hysterical takes on our financial health. What would be interesting though is if they were accompanied by a summary on our cashflow and net debt position. Cash rather than profit is the key.

[ottery st mary]

Just an idle thought - could the BVI loan have been taken out to facilitate NC's plans to buy the club from the Liebherr's some time in the near future?

 

 

As stated above...I may have missed the club accounts or other evidence that there was a BVI loan....

 

When evidenced and for what amount?

 

Just curious:)

[stevegrant]

As stated above...I may have missed the club accounts or other evidence that there was a BVI loan....

 

When evidenced and for what amount?

 

Just curious:)

There is a mortgage charge lodged at Companies House with all of that information. It doesn't state the actual loan amount, but there is a fixed and floating charge on next season's broadcasting revenue.