MPs "pushing up" tactics - are they easy to counter ?

[alpine_saint]

Didnt David Moyes say on Sky that playing long balll is an easy counter to MPs tactics ?

Isnt that what Toon did ?

Does MP have a Plan B if it looks like the opposition are playing long ball ?

[Special K]

I've been thinking the same. But i very much doubt teams will seek to counter our tactics for a full 90 minutes and will always seek to impose themselves on the game too. That would be giving little old Saints too much respect! The exception to this may be the game tomorrow of course. Shearer tried to explain some counter measures on MOTD2 last week when talking of his beloved Toon. But we still scored 2 goals away from home and could easily have had 4. Not too shabby for a team that is being "countered".

[trousers]

Didnt David Moyes say on Sky that playing long balll is an easy counter to MPs tactics ?

Isnt that what Toon did ?

Does MP have a Plan B if it looks like the opposition are playing long ball ?

 

We lost at Newcastle in spite of our tactics not because of them

[stu0x]

Didnt David Moyes say on Sky that playing long balll is an easy counter to MPs tactics ?

Isnt that what Toon did ?

So 'easy' that despite doing it, it still took the Danny Fox Effect for us to lose.

[Charlie Wayman]

Didnt David Moyes say on Sky that playing long balll is an easy counter to MPs tactics ?

Isnt that what Toon did ?

 

Exactly what Pardew did and it works because we will always be too far upfield and knackered to chase back. Adkins started like this as well but learned the hard way not to overdo it. Back to square one it seems to me.

[St Lej]

Exactly what Pardew did and it works because we will always be too far upfield and knackered to chase back. Adkins started like this as well but learned the hard way not to overdo it. Back to square one it seems to me.

 

It's a good job you're absolutely ****ing clueless then

[notnowcato]

Defending long ball is easier than defending big gaps between defence and midfield.

[Saint Garrett]

Newcastle also played us at our own game. Sissoko and Gouffran pushed up on our full backs and didnt give us time to play. They hassled Morgan and closed down Hooiveld. We panicked at times. But it is MP's job to make sure we have an alternative

[Turkish]

We need dominant defenders to counter the long ball game, Hoolveld isn't one, lets hope Forren is. Good point on tactics too, English football is mroe direct and quicker than in Spain, there will likely be more teams capable of catching us on the counter than when he had these tactics at Espanyol.

[tajjuk]

An offside goal (resulting from a foul as well), a dodgy penalty and a freak own goal not sure how any of those can be put down to our tactics or style. It's poor refereeing and some poor individual decision making.

 

This is like the start of the season again, people blamed Adkins for our defenders making basic errors, which was silly. You can't blame Pochettino for bad referee decisions and individual errors. (maybe for Fox being on the pitch I suppose but he didn;t have much choice if Shaw had a knock).

 

Yeh long ball is a possible counter to our tactics, but generally it's one of the least effective styles of football and as long as the linesman does his job lumping aimless long balls up the pitch isn't going to be our achilles heel.

 

If teams try it against us they will surrender possession to us far more often than they will cause a threat to us.

 

We need dominant defenders to counter the long ball game, Hoolveld isn't one, lets hope Forren is. Good point on tactics too, English football is mroe direct and quicker than in Spain, there will likely be more teams capable of catching us on the counter than when he had these tactics at Espanyol.

 

His tactics worked against Barecelona and Real Madrid, both of whom are probably the best exponents of the counter attack in the world at the moment.

[Wes Tender]

Pat Nevin itemised three or four ways for how the high pressing game could be countered effectively, the long ball over the top and the diagonal ball out wide being two that I can recall.

 

I too am worried that Pochettino might be a one-trick pony and that we will already have been sussed out by the more intelligent managers tactically. But having said that, the rival managers still have to have the players capable of following those counter tactics, either pacy front men, or midfielders capable of the passes through our midfield.

 

It would be nice to think that we had a manager capable of assessing the rival team's strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them by changes to our tactics, but we seem to have played the same way the past few matches, with mixed results.

[Barry Sanchez]

I actually like this tactic as it helps our defensive shortcomings a lot as we pressure their midfield and defense more, the issue will arise when we play a fitter team than us as we be knackered later on, when we get better players we can play possesion football and a more spread out formation.

[ToreSF]

It's a tactic that doesn't work without defenders that are quick, or extremely good at reading the game.

[Pilchards]

MP needs to get a couple of quick defenders in (next season) and then they can play a very high line.

You need confidence in your CB's to out pace any striker from the half way line otherwise you're ****ed.

[tajjuk]

It's a tactic that doesn't work without defenders that are quick, or extremely good at reading the game.

 

Disagree on the first point, whilst pace is good to have if the player doesn't have the mental side of the game it's pointless. Look at Micah Richards when he played centre back, pace to burn but he spent so much time in the wrong position it was useless.

 

Positioning, anticipation and a well drilled communicating defence are the key aspects to a high line. Pace is bonus, there aren't that many centrebacks in world football that are actually that quick. Even with top level pace if you f*ck up your positioning in the first place you won't get back. Look at Lambert getting in behind the Man City defene all those times, he must be one of the slowest strikers in the league.

 

A 'sweeper keeper' would help more than fast defenders, especially if teams lump the ball into the channels a keeper who is alert and can get out quickly will be able to clear the ball before the attacker gets there.

[Alain Perrin]

In my opinion Yoshida is made for this style of game. Not the quickest but his positioning is very good

[Tokyo-Saint]

There is a 2nd key part to this tactic that most seemed to be missing. It is not just about pressing when you don't have the ball, it is also about keeping control of the ball for long periods yourself. If the other team keep going for the long ball over the top, it might work sometimes but most of the time we will end up in possession. If we then value that possession, keep the ball for ages and box them in, their long balls become more and more like desperate hoofs until eventually the away fans feel like they are watching England.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Didnt David Moyes say on Sky that playing long balll is an easy counter to MPs tactics ?

Isnt that what Toon did ?

Does MP have a Plan B if it looks like the opposition are playing long ball ?

 

It was hardly a rip roaring success when they played us at SMS in MPs first game.

 

My Everton mate said that was the best performance he has seen against them this season, and that few teams have dominated them like we did first half.

[ToreSF]

Disagree on the first point, whilst pace is good to have if the player doesn't have the mental side of the game it's pointless. Look at Micah Richards when he played centre back, pace to burn but he spent so much time in the wrong position it was useless.

 

Positioning, anticipation and a well drilled communicating defence are the key aspects to a high line. Pace is bonus, there aren't that many centrebacks in world football that are actually that quick. Even with top level pace if you f*ck up your positioning in the first place you won't get back. Look at Lambert getting in behind the Man City defene all those times, he must be one of the slowest strikers in the league.

 

A 'sweeper keeper' would help more than fast defenders, especially if teams lump the ball into the channels a keeper who is alert and can get out quickly will be able to clear the ball before the attacker gets there.

 

Good points, and I agree.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

The ball over the top is the way to counter a high line - the only way you can stop that is by pressing effectively as a team in the final third. For me too many times against Newcastle the pressing was not done as a unit which resulted in Newcastle passing the ball to a free Cabaye in a deep position and he would lump it over the top which caused problems.

[hutch]

their long balls become more and more like desperate hoofs until eventually the away fans feel like they are watching England.

Not much has made me smile today

[Graffito]

If David Moyes knows so much about how to counter the pressing game why didn't he get 3 points at St Mary's.

[Deano6]

If David Moyes knows so much about how to counter the pressing game why didn't he get 3 points at St Mary's.

 

If you know so much about football why aren't you a manager?

[Scudamore]

If you know so much about football why aren't you a manager?

 

Good point. None of us are football managers. Shut the forum IMO.

[Bucks Saint]

If David Moyes knows so much about how to counter the pressing game why didn't he get 3 points at St Mary's.

 

To be fair, he was commenting after the game, when he had the chance to reflect and review the video etc, on what was MP's first ever game for us

[Dig Dig]

Why are you all discussing the tactical observations of the OP when he doesn't even watch us play?

[Turkish]

An offside goal (resulting from a foul as well), a dodgy penalty and a freak own goal not sure how any of those can be put down to our tactics or style. It's poor refereeing and some poor individual decision making.

 

This is like the start of the season again, people blamed Adkins for our defenders making basic errors, which was silly. You can't blame Pochettino for bad referee decisions and individual errors. (maybe for Fox being on the pitch I suppose but he didn;t have much choice if Shaw had a knock).

 

Yeh long ball is a possible counter to our tactics, but generally it's one of the least effective styles of football and as long as the linesman does his job lumping aimless long balls up the pitch isn't going to be our achilles heel.

 

If teams try it against us they will surrender possession to us far more often than they will cause a threat to us.

 

 

 

His tactics worked against Barecelona and Real Madrid, both of whom are probably the best exponents of the counter attack in the world at the moment.

 

So his brilliant tactics worked against Barcelona and Real Madrid, but weren't to blame for us losing to Newcastle? How do you work that one out? how do you explain Newcastle dominating 70% of the match? How do you know they didn't beat Barcelona and Real due to poor defending, poor refereing or freak goals?

Edited 1 March, 2013 by Turkish

[Give it to Ron]

Good point. None of us are football managers. Shut the forum IMO.

 

Oi some of us are :-) I always know what can be done better ask the lot who sit near me.

 

To answer the question...any tactics employed can be overcome...its having a plan B...watch West Ham

let Carroll knock it into nowhere and win second ball they have nothing else.

[Bearsy]

We lost to newcastle cos they had better players and home advantage.

 

We'll beat qpr for same reasons!

[slickmick]

Thankfully Harry Redknapp is a thick fxxxxxr so we don't have to worry about it this week.

[Dig Dig]

We lost to newcastle cos they had better players and home advantage.

 

We'll beat qpr for same reasons!

 

Yes exactly

[Window Cleaner]

We lost to newcastle cos they had better players and home advantage.

 

We'll beat qpr for same reasons!

 

we lost to Newcastle because they got a penalty and a very avoidable own goal. Rest of the game was 50/50. They certainly aren't better than we are...Fox apart and who was responsable for the 2 goals that beat us ?

[Bearsy]

Did ya think so Windows? I thought they probably deserved the win and Sissoko was best player on the pitch. I am willing to change my mind and blame Fox tho if it keeps things nice & friendly!

[Dig Dig]

Ultimately, no system or set of tactics is unbeatable. Are we going to have this discussion each time we lose a game?

[Deano6]

Good point. None of us are football managers. Shut the forum IMO.

 

...and there you've answered Graffito's question.

[Window Cleaner]

Did ya think so Windows? I thought they probably deserved the win and Sissoko was best player on the pitch. I am willing to change my mind and blame Fox tho if it keeps things nice & friendly!

 

Cabaye was far superior to Sissoko. Sissoko is an optical illusion, runs around a lot, scores a few easy ones but at the end of the day look at how many tackles he puts in and his pass success rate. Cabaye makes him look good, he was shîte a Toulouse where even Capoue couldn't make him look good.

[Bearsy]

v.interesting analysis Windows. Cabaye probably was good but i don't really notice players if they ain't running around a lot.

[The9]

Yes, they are easy to counter. Next.

[The9]

In my opinion Yoshida is made for this style of game. Not the quickest but his positioning is very good

 

IMO it's precisely what we don't want him to be doing, his reading of balls over his head in behind him is one of his weaknesses.

[del boy]

we lost to Newcastle because they got a penalty and a very avoidable own goal. Rest of the game was 50/50. They certainly aren't better than we are...Fox apart and who was responsable for the 2 goals that beat us ?

Apparently, MP told the team that Newcastle only had one shot on target in the second half - and scored twice!

[Turkish]

we lost to Newcastle because they got a penalty and a very avoidable own goal. Rest of the game was 50/50. They certainly aren't better than we are...Fox apart and who was responsable for the 2 goals that beat us ?

 

behave. We played well for the first 10 minutes and first 15 minutes iof the second half, they were on top for the rest of the game. Didn't threaten at all after they scored their 3rd. We got beaten by a better side and crap defending cost us 3 goals.

[aintforever]

Tomorrow will be a good gauge on wether teams are starting to figure us out.

 

Lose at home to the sh!ttest team in the league at it will be a real worry that our recent good performances were just new manager syndrome.

[Graffito]

If you know so much about football why aren't you a manager?

 

Hello Dean. I have upset you mate?

[david in sweden]

we lost to Newcastle because they got a penalty and a very avoidable own goal. Rest of the game was 50/50.

 

They certainly aren't better than we are...Fox apart and who was responsible for the 2 goals that beat us ?

 

 

 

as MP said.......in the second half, Newcastle had one shot ..and got two goals !

 

For all their possession they didn't achieve more, and were handed the points (no pun intended)...and the penalty wasn't even a penalty (see other thread).

[Saints Warrior]

After today I would say for 6 of tthe remaing games yes.

[Rebel]

Barcelona don't counter attack - they press just like Espanyol did - and like we are trying to do. They take it to an extreme though - the full backs play like wingers and the centre backs push up into the opposition half. Real Madrid defended deep, crowded them out in the box and the counter attacked with the long ball to Ronaldo or Ozil and pace.

 

It's why they lost 3-1 at the Nou Camp on Tuesday.

 

Barcelona didn't seem to have a plan B either.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Great, so after years of effort we finally get to play like Barca, just as Barca get found out.

[sunrise]

I'm surprised that no-one has started a 'Pochettino out' thread yet!

[Shroppie]

Pochettino out!

[david in sweden]

Didnt David Moyes say on Sky that playing long balll is an easy counter to MPs tactics ?

Isnt that what Toon did ?

Does MP have a Plan B if it looks like the opposition are playing long ball ?

 

 

There is no Plan B. It seems to me that the problem is that a long ball up-field from the opposition catches out our back-line where we really don't have any pace to intercept a pacy striker.

 

Fonte has good skills in tackling, but lacks pace. He looks quite pedestrian at times and is easily caught out (as in Wigan home game). he was beaten for pace TWICE..and they scored their goals.

 

Hooiveld is always the scapegoat, but at least he uses a bit of muscle and did well against Man.City's strikers. We need a Michael Svensson - clone who can hold things up at the back.