Fox - It wasn't a Penalty - Official

[dubai_phil]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284201/GRAHAM-POLL--The-Official-Line-The-new-handball-rule-explained-Newcastle-got-lucky-Fox-penalty.html

 

Graham Poll explains the new Handball Interpretation and

 

Regarding handball they now ask the referee to consider the proximity of the potential offender to the person last playing the ball, the speed of the ball and importantly whether the offender's arms are in a natural or unnatural position.

 

So the question of intent is now, did the offender deliberately place his arms in an unnatural position to increase the chances of the ball hitting him?

If the answer to that is yes then it is correct to penalise that player even though it used to be argued that was ball to hand.

 

So, with three controversial handball decisions this weekend:

 

• Craig Gardner (Sunderland)- penalty correctly given - his arm was in an unnatural position against West Brom
  
• Gareth McAuley (West Brom)- correct decision not to award penalty - his arm was in a natural position
  
• Danny Fox (Southampton) - penalty incorrectly given - his challenge was clumsy but his arm was not in an 'unnatural' positio
  

 

 

Interesting point made for future reference - Hand to Ball arguments are now irrelevant (so you can go into MLG mode when it happens again!)

[Deano6]

Interesting Dubsie, thanks for that. I think a lot of refs would have given it tho, and I heard few complaining here (even tho it was Fox).

 

So we lost 4-1 to:

 

- an offside goal

- a pen that shouldn't have been

- a freak own goal

 

I guess luck evens itself out after all (pen v Villa, og vs Man City)

[dubai_phil]

Interesting Dubsie, thanks for that. I think a lot of refs would have given it tho, and I heard few complaining here (even tho it was Fox).

 

So we lost 4-1 to:

 

- an offside goal

- a pen that shouldn't have been

- a freak own goal

 

I guess luck evens itself out after all (pen v Villa, og vs Man City)

 

4-2 actually but everything else was correct

[shurlock]

Good article cheers- reinforces the idea that it was a harsh decision. Just coz they're often given doesn't make it any more valid. Never bought into singling out refs but there should be a ref watch thread for upcoming fixtures on this place.

Edited 26 February, 2013 by shurlock

[Barry Sanchez]

Moot point, Danny Fox is still crap, he has always been crap, he will be crap when he is laid to rest, in fact he will probably fall out the coffin..........................

[ToreSF]

Moot point, Danny Fox is still crap, he has always been crap, he will be crap when he is laid to rest, in fact he will probably fall out the coffin..........................

 

"Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, crap to crap."

[Bearsy]

Moot point, Danny Fox is still crap, he has always been crap, he will be crap when he is laid to rest, in fact he will probably fall out the coffin..........................

 

in death as he was in life, asleep in the box

[Barry Sanchez]

in death as he was in life, asleep in the box

 

But at least by falling out the coffin he made the effort..................

[Bucks Saint]

Referee's job just got harder then! Try working out if it was unnatural, rather than just raised, at speed, from a distance away and possibly a tricky angle. Meanwhile we will all slaughter you having seen the slo-mo 12 times

[Barry Sanchez]

I just can imagine the eulogy.

 

If Daniel were here today he would not want you to be unhappy, he will want you to be angry and confused, can anyone remember that cross field pass against Reading? So leave here today confused, angry and and have an image of him being ghosted and losing his man in the box.

[MongoNeil]

in death as he was in life, asleep in the box

 

You just made me snort milk and spit my cornflakes out.

[Andre]

These laws need to be made consistent and uniform, there shouldn't be room for such interpretation. I personally think it was a penalty, based on the fact that his block with his hand interfered with the play and benefited his side unfairly, so I think that should be the rule.

[charliegeorgesflymo]

Moot point, Danny Fox is still crap, he has always been crap, he will be crap when he is laid to rest, in fact he will probably fall out the coffin..........................

this

[monosaint]

The more I look at it the less it looks like a Penalty. Garry Neville also said last nigh on MNF that he thought that it was definitely not a penalty. The CISSE goal was also offside. When the guy hit the long ball he was way offside and nobody else touched it before he struck the ball. All 4 Newcastle goals had an element of luck to them. Still, maybe that's all our bad luck over in one game.

[Barry Sanchez]

Whether it was offside or not Shaw jumped to early and who was covering Cisse? Or who was Shaw covering as they were out of position? The goal stood but if the defending was correct there would not of been a goal to talk about.

It was handball and a penalty as the referee gave it, harsh but it was.

The own goal was ***ing shocking and Fox's spacial awareness is 0, Aston Villa anyone?

 

Lets stop with this girly whining of its not fair and state the facts, we lost, we deserved to and Fox is total ****.

Edited 26 February, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[tajjuk]

Interesting Dubsie, thanks for that. I think a lot of refs would have given it tho, and I heard few complaining here (even tho it was Fox).

 

So we lost 4-1 to:

 

- an offside goal

- a pen that shouldn't have been

- a freak own goal

 

I guess luck evens itself out after all (pen v Villa, og vs Man City)

 

I think it's fair to say we were a little unlucky in that game, we probably deserved a draw and we could have have easily won and I don't think Newcastle could have had too many complaints.

 

Agree with Barry though we need to get Fox and Hooiveld out of the team asap, both have cost us points and like Davis and Gazza we need to forget about them. Get Fonte back in next week.

[paris]

Saw the incident last night , IMHO 100% NOT a penalty ......

[pingwing]

Clearly need a video ref to call this stuff, it's getting embarrassing how a multi billion pound league shown to over 100 countries in the world can tolerate crap officiating week in week out to a point where the league table is almost unrepresentative of a teams ability and instead represents who the refs like more.

[Andre]

penalty every day of the week

[The9]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284201/GRAHAM-POLL--The-Official-Line-The-new-handball-rule-explained-Newcastle-got-lucky-Fox-penalty.html

 

Graham Poll explains the new Handball Interpretation and

 

 

 

Interesting point made for future reference - Hand to Ball arguments are now irrelevant (so you can go into MLG mode when it happens again!)

 

Not sure how you read that and work out that "hand to ball arguments are irrelevant", the whole basis of the judgement is whether the player has deliberately tried to block the ball, if they haven't (and their hand is it a "natural" position) then it's the very definition of "ball to hand".

[Mowgli]

penalty every day of the week

 

Agreed. Looking at it again the arm is a bit high to claim a natural position. Let's put it this way, if it was the other way around and we had been refused a panelty we would be livid!

[aintforever]

I thought it was a pen, if he had his hand lower down it wouldn't be.

[Big Bad Bob]

I thought it was a pen, if he had his hand lower down it wouldn't be.

 

Raise your right leg high, when running at pace, and see how high your left arm naturally goes.

[trousers]

Raise your right leg high, when running at pace, and see how high your left arm naturally goes.

 

I've just tried this in the condiments aisle at Sainsbury's and can confirm that my arm went up as high as Fox's. And I only clobbered one old dear in the process.

 

No penalty. #fact

[Bearsy]

Raise your right leg high, when running at pace, and see how high your left arm naturally goes.

 

was fox running at pace? it would be first time!

[Tokyo-Saint]

was fox running at pace? it would be first time!

 

Another minus 1 point please spudders.

[Bearsy]

w-wait cracking unfunny trolls on main board is ok surely??? It's only posting serious punions that it is bad reputations! Spudders? Ruling please!

[Big Bad Bob]

I've just tried this in the condiments aisle at Sainsbury's and can confirm that my arm went up as high as Fox's. And I only clobbered one old dear in the process.

 

No penalty. #fact

 

Are you alright? I hear that old people's bones can be wrote hard....

[Graffito]

It wasn't a pen but "handballs" similar to Fox's are given more often than not. There's only one solution, tie all outfield player's hands behind their backs.

[CaneNero]

Moot point, Danny Fox is still crap, he has always been crap, he will be crap when he is laid to rest, in fact he will probably fall out the coffin..........................

 

Agreed.

[Andre]

Misleading title, it definitely was a penalty and we definitely conceded it.

[Olallana]

Whether it was offside or not Shaw jumped to early and who was covering Cisse? Or who was Shaw covering as they were out of position? The goal stood but if the defending was correct there would not of been a goal to talk about.

It was handball and a penalty as the referee gave it, harsh but it was.

The own goal was ***ing shocking and Fox's spacial awareness is 0, Aston Villa anyone?

 

Lets stop with this girly whining of its not fair and state the facts, we lost, we deserved to and Fox is total ****.

 

 

So what you are saying is that the linesman is forgiven for his BIG error due to that our players weren´t doing their job (defending) properly.

But our players can´t be forgiven and blaim the linesman for not doing his job properly...

 

If you have an opinion about things it should work both ways, should it not?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Was more of a peno than the one we got at Villa.

[SuperMikey]

Was more of a peno than the one we got at Villa.

 

True, and I think things tend to even themselves out like that over the course of a season. We beat Man City, so naturally we were going to lose a game that we thought we'd win too.

[Whitey Grandad]

Clearly need a video ref to call this stuff, it's getting embarrassing how a multi billion pound league shown to over 100 countries in the world can tolerate crap officiating week in week out to a point where the league table is almost unrepresentative of a teams ability and instead represents who the refs like more.

 

Why would a video ref be any different? In cases like this it's a matter of opinion. Don't call for another ref just because you don't like this one.

[Whitey Grandad]

The more I look at it the less it looks like a Penalty. Garry Neville also said last nigh on MNF that he thought that it was definitely not a penalty. The CISSE goal was also offside. When the guy hit the long ball he was way offside and nobody else touched it before he struck the ball. All 4 Newcastle goals had an element of luck to them. Still, maybe that's all our bad luck over in one game.

Cissé was offside when the ball was kicked, which is not an offence by itself, but a lot happens between him being offside and ending up kicking the ball. It's not an easy decision to call since at the time of the kick he's in another area of the pitch and then two players have tried to head the ball and missed. It's the sort of situation where the linesman normally flags some time after the kick and everybody wonders 'what the f....' and then the linesman makes that gesture with his free arm swinging from side to side to show that the player had come back from an offside position. Could have gone either way.

[Window Cleaner]

All 4 Newcastle goals had an element of luck to them. Still, maybe that's all our bad luck over in one game.

 

 

Certainly not, in modern football bad reffing is as certain as death and taxes. Just because you get 3 iffy decisions against you one week it doesn't mean you'll be spared them the next. The game has become too fast and too intricate for the referee and assistants. When a ref costs 40 million £ and gets 200K£ a week for his talents it will be better.

Edited 26 February, 2013 by Window Cleaner

[Olallana]

Cissé was offside when the ball was kicked, which is not an offence by itself, but a lot happens between him being offside and ending up kicking the ball. It's not an easy decision to call since at the time of the kick he's in another area of the pitch and then two players have tried to head the ball and missed. It's the sort of situation where the linesman normally flags some time after the kick and everybody wonders 'what the f....' and then the linesman makes that gesture with his free arm swinging from side to side to show that the player had come back from an offside position. Could have gone either way.

 

Exactly that, but I dont agree it could have gone either way. That´s about as easy it can be to make an offside call for a linesman and that´s also their favourite gesture these days to explain a lot of offside calls.

If you cant trust a linesman to spot THAT call, then football has a big problem...

[redder freak]

Misleading title, it definitely was a penalty and we definitely conceded it.

 

Who's Graham Poll anyway? We know better than he does. We're Southampton fans and we wanted it to be a penalty, because we don't like Danny Fox.

 

Sounds like that to me.

[VectisSaint]

Misleading title, it definitely was a penalty and we definitely conceded it.

Thank you Mr Mariner. Mr Poll says otherwise.

[Saint Martini]

It wasn't a pen but "handballs" similar to Fox's are given more often than not. There's only one solution, tie all outfield player's hands behind their backs.

 

There's one solution, give a penalty/freekick for every time the ball touches a hand. No exceptions, I don't get why you wouldn't give a penalty in for instance Fox' case. He stops the ball from going towards the goal, he thus has an advantage from the ball touching a part of his body it shouldn't. What argument could you have for not giving a penalty? Would the same apply if you block the ball on the line? Just imagine the Ghana - Uruguay match in the 2010 WC. Suarez stops the ball with his hand but imagine his hand is in a natural position. How can you explain that it isn't a penalty? Rather unfair on the other team isn't it?

[Andre]

I don't think y'all understood my quote above: it was a penalty, we all saw the referee give it and then Cabaye score it. It was just a joke, a bad one!

[sotonist]

There's one solution, give a penalty/freekick for every time the ball touches a hand. No exceptions, I don't get why you wouldn't give a penalty in for instance Fox' case. He stops the ball from going towards the goal, he thus has an advantage from the ball touching a part of his body it shouldn't. What argument could you have for not giving a penalty? Would the same apply if you block the ball on the line? Just imagine the Ghana - Uruguay match in the 2010 WC. Suarez stops the ball with his hand but imagine his hand is in a natural position. How can you explain that it isn't a penalty? Rather unfair on the other team isn't it?

Michael Svensson stanging on the goal line, the ball fired at the goal, hits his hand hanging naturally by his side, penalty, red card. Genius.

[sotonist]

Penalty probably justified in that case mind. just not the card. In Foxes case, indirect free kick?

[aintforever]

Raise your right leg high, when running at pace, and see how high your left arm naturally goes.

 

Agree to an extent but Fox was running to block a cross, he was aware that having his arms stuck out could result in the ball hitting them. It was harsh but I think it had to be given.

[Miltonroader07]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284201/GRAHAM-POLL--The-Official-Line-The-new-handball-rule-explained-Newcastle-got-lucky-Fox-penalty.html

 

Graham Poll explains the new Handball Interpretation and

 

 

 

 

Interesting point made for future reference - Hand to Ball arguments are now irrelevant (so you can go into MLG mode when it happens again!)

 

Yeah that is a good post BUT Fox is still crap !!!!!!

[scotty]

Why would a video ref be any different? In cases like this it's a matter of opinion. Don't call for another ref just because you don't like this one.

 

The point of this thread is that another ref (or at least, a former one) has already said it wasn't a pen.

 

Doubt many refs would not have given it on the day, though.

[Whitey Grandad]

The point of this thread is that another ref (or at least, a former one) has already said it wasn't a pen.

 

Doubt many refs would not have given it on the day, though.

 

A lot of this is a matter of opinion so what an ex-ref thinks does not really matter. Graham Poll is employed to give an insight into the thinking behind the decisions but at the end of the day it's the man in the middle who has to decide. We can't appeal to a higher authority if we don't like his decision nor put it to a vote. The guidelines for these sorts of incidents change all the time but as you say, I think most refs would have given it, or to put it another way, you'd need balls of steel not to.

[dubai_phil]

A lot of this is a matter of opinion so what an ex-ref thinks does not really matter. Graham Poll is employed to give an insight into the thinking behind the decisions but at the end of the day it's the man in the middle who has to decide. We can't appeal to a higher authority if we don't like his decision nor put it to a vote. The guidelines for these sorts of incidents change all the time but as you say, I think most refs would have given it, or to put it another way, you'd need balls of steel not to.

 

A primary reason for posting the OP in the FIRST case was that myself and I am sure many others on here did not know about the change in Interpretation this season.

 

As for Danny Fox, there is ONE point that not a single poster has made - there was a major clash of heads with a toon player (Taylor I believe) for which he appeared to receive treatment on the sideline.

 

Perhaps that knocked what little footballing sense he had out of him, who knows, but some of the vitriol against him is out of order.

[Saint Martini]

Michael Svensson stanging on the goal line, the ball fired at the goal, hits his hand hanging naturally by his side, penalty, red card. Genius.

 

That would be a penalty and a yellow.

 

Red cards are only given for a deliberate handball that denies a goal or a obvious scoring opportunity.