Paul Sturrock

[Alain Perrin]

Sturrock was a drinker. No ifs, no buts.

 

I don't think that helped his cause with Lowe or the players. Fact is you can do well at interview, on paper he'd had a good lower league track record - but he wasn't first choice (that was Hoddle) so was always on rocky ground.

[110_Persaint]

^^^ I had thought you were first choice mate, but you declined!! Are we not a big enough name for you???

[WealdSaint]

I remember "Luggys lowdown" on the OS after each match.

[Wade Garrett]

The results before he took over on the 4th March 04 stand as:

 

Man Utd 3-2 Saints

Saints 0-0 Fulham

Arsenal 2-0 Saints

Saints 3-3 Everton

Blackburn 1-1 Saints

 

We had only won one game in 10 games, a 2-1 Home win against hapless Leeds United. His first result was a 2-0 home win v Liverpool, we then proceeded to win 4 in 6.

 

He revived a team that was beginning to lose it's way after Strachan announced his intended departure. His record in the season he was sacked was won 1, lost 1. Certainly no grounds for sacking on results alone.

 

Well put Colin. Our performances under him were a breath of fresh air. He certainly made us more attacking. Lowe should have told the players to f*ck off. They were sh*t the season we went down anyway.

[110_Persaint]

I remember Anders played his best football under him. Ran the show that Liverpool night.

[LostBoys]

I heard at the time that directing training at Staplewood sat on a chair leaning over the barrier with a cup of coffee contrasted with Strachan's in your face type approach - if you can't do it I will show you. You should bear in mind though that Lowe's understanding of training did not amount to much - according to Stachan's guarded book - Lowe sent another director (I know who it was) to film training hidden in a bush but he fell out much to everyone's amusement. Would we have been relegated with Sturrock - probably not.

[Trader]

Well, well, it seems that the received wisdom on this thread about Luggy's tenure seems to be changing.

 

I've never understood the view that he was "out of his depth", his results by and large were pretty good.

 

I can understand Lowe being upset by his appearance and our so-called superstar players at the time perceiving that his lower league background not being good enough for them, but he really wasn't given a chance.

 

It was Lowe's ludicrous appointment of a coach in Wigley (especially as the previous cheap option Gray was a spectacular failure) that did for us that season.

[ottery st mary]

Lowe was an idiot who did not have a clue.

 

Sturrock was not the problem.

 

Lowe should never have been allowed into Southampton Football Club.

[110_Persaint]

Lowe was an idiot who did not have a clue.

 

Sturrock was not the problem.

 

Lowe should never have been allowed into Southampton Football Club.

*ironic applause*

[Dark Munster]

Well, well, it seems that the received wisdom on this thread about Luggy's tenure seems to be changing.

 

I've never understood the view that he was "out of his depth", his results by and large were pretty good.

 

I can understand Lowe being upset by his appearance and our so-called superstar players at the time perceiving that his lower league background not being good enough for them, but he really wasn't given a chance.

 

It was Lowe's ludicrous appointment of a coach in Wigley (especially as the previous cheap option Gray was a spectacular failure) that did for us that season.

^^^ This.

 

I'm surprised Dalek hasn't chipped in to tell us (for the 1000th time) that the reason we got relegated was because Luggy was hired instead of Glenda.

[Dark Munster]

I remember when he was appointed, it seemed like Lowe had decided on giving him the job because Plymouth knocked us out of the cup, therefore he must be a fantastic manager. Same thing happened with Dave Jones, iirc. Sturrock was so far out of his depth it was embarrassing, didn't he introduce some cross-country rambles in an attempt at team-bonding loike 'e uzed to doo at Plymufff?

Just to be clear he won five and lost six. Two being drawn.

[chocco boxo]

Only club he never signed his son for. Nice bloke.

[The9]

I'm still amused that someone's just completely fabricated "Plymouth knocked us out of the cup so that's why Lowe appointed him". We didn't even play Plymouth between 1977 and 2005, which was after we'd been relegated, and our only ever cup match against them was in 1967... which we won.

[The9]

Only club he never signed his son for. Nice bloke.

 

If you ignore Sheffield Wednesday.

[chocco boxo]

If you ignore Sheffield Wednesday.

 

ignored ;-)

[scotty]

I'm still amused that someone's just completely fabricated "Plymouth knocked us out of the cup so that's why Lowe appointed him". We didn't even play Plymouth between 1977 and 2005, which was after we'd been relegated, and our only ever cup match against them was in 1967... which we won.

 

Not fabricated; mis-remembered. I apologise.

 

And I withdraw my earlier suggestion that he was out of his depth in the prem, the long list of top flight suitors since his dismissal from here after less than 6 months in charge is testament to his qualities. Fair play to him for ignoring them and sticking with the likes of Sheff Weds, Swindon, Plymouth and Southend instead, the man has principles and he stuck to them.

Edited 20 February, 2013 by scotty

[The9]

Not fabricated; mis-remembered. I apologise.

 

And I withdraw my earlier suggestion that he was out of his depth in the prem, the long list of top flight suitors since his dismissal from here after less than 6 months in charge is testament to his qualities. Fair play to him for ignoring them and sticking with the likes of Sheff Weds, Swindon, Plymouth and Southend instead, the man has principles and he stuck to them.

 

Which teams did you think were involved, and which chairman and manager then ? Did this even happen in football ? I shall be unimpressed if you misremembered a couple of gallahs on Neighbours in the 1980s acting out a similar experience about a local high school Aussie Rules game. Or if it's a plotline from Bedknobs and Broomsticks...

 

Fair play for apologising, not necessary though.

[scotty]

Which teams did you think were involved, and which chairman and manager then ? Did this even happen in football ? I shall be unimpressed if you misremembered a couple of gallahs on Neighbours in the 1980s acting out a similar experience about a local high school Aussie Rules game. Or if it's a plotline from Bedknobs and Broomsticks...

 

Fair play for apologising, not necessary though.

 

It was nine years ago, I cant remember what I had for breakfast yesterday. I do remember not being surprised by us signing him though, maybe Plymouth had a great cup result against another top flight side the previous season? I do definitely recall Jones coming here after Stockport beat us over two legs, feel free to tell me I'm wrong on that as well;)

[The9]

It was nine years ago, I cant remember what I had for breakfast yesterday. I do remember not being surprised by us signing him though, maybe Plymouth had a great cup result against another top flight side the previous season? I do definitely recall Jones coming here after Stockport beat us over two legs, feel free to tell me I'm wrong on that as well;)

 

Actually, this would probably have impressed anyone :

 

FOOTBALL LEAGUE DIV 2 Sa 11Oct 2003

Plymouth 6 - 0 Tranmere

FOOTBALL LEAGUE TROP Tu 14Oct 2003

Plymouth 4 - 0 Bristol C

FOOTBALL LEAGUE DIV 2 Sa 18Oct 2003

Port Vale 1 - 5 Plymouth

FOOTBALL LEAGUE DIV 2 We 22Oct 2003

Sheff Wed 1 - 3 Plymouth

 

Though it was a few months before we even knew Strachan was leaving and Lowe was probably in Bucharest for some of that...

[The9]

It was nine years ago, I cant remember what I had for breakfast yesterday. I do remember not being surprised by us signing him though, maybe Plymouth had a great cup result against another top flight side the previous season? I do definitely recall Jones coming here after Stockport beat us over two legs, feel free to tell me I'm wrong on that as well;)

 

It was in a second replay of a one off knockout match in the 96/97 League Cup I believe.

 

http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2473&team2_id=2471&teamTabs=h2h

[Lets B Avenue]

It was in a second replay of a one off knockout match in the 96/97 League Cup I believe.

 

http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2473&team2_id=2471&teamTabs=h2h

 

PEDANT ALERT!!

 

First (and only) replay.

[scotty]

It was in a second replay of a one off knockout match in the 96/97 League Cup I believe.

 

http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2473&team2_id=2471&teamTabs=h2h

 

Fair enough, cant argue the results They say as you get older your short-term memory fades, I didn't think that would apply at 51 ffs

[Thedelldays]

Actually, this would probably have impressed anyone :

 

FOOTBALL LEAGUE DIV 2 Sa 11Oct 2003

Plymouth6 - 0Tranmere

FOOTBALL LEAGUE TROP Tu 14Oct 2003

Plymouth4 - 0Bristol C

FOOTBALL LEAGUE DIV 2 Sa 18Oct 2003

Port Vale1 - 5Plymouth

FOOTBALL LEAGUE DIV 2 We 22Oct 2003

Sheff Wed1 - 3Plymouth

 

Though it was a few months before we even knew Strachan was leaving and Lowe was probably in Bucharest for some of that...

 

Paul wotton football genius was their star player back then

[Dalek2003]

Sturrock's record with us wasn't as bad as people are making out

 

P13

W5

D2

L6

 

Roughly mid table form

 

That said I think there were two main reasons to his departure. From day one there was a big personality clash between him and Lowe and their respective attitudes towards how things should be done. As alluded to above I remember hearing that rumour about how Lowe turned up to some press conference/media interview or smth in his best suit only for Sturrock to turn up in an egg stained t-shirt. It seemed to get to him in some way and feed on to the players because as soon as Jason Dodd apparently knocked on Lowe's door re: Sturrock, that was the end of him. The situation became unmanageable and it was always Sturrock that was going to get the chop.

 

I actually think Sturrock should never have been given the job in the first place (weren't we linked with Bruno Metsu at that time?) and his entire time here appeared to be not much short of a shambles, even if the results weren't as bad as some people make out. It was always going to end in tears, especially when Steve Wigley was the best Lowe could come up with after Sturrock left.

 

He was appointed instead of Hoddle a panic decision. Hoddle was always intended to be the manager, but certain members of the board took fright over a loud fan protest by a minority. Took the majority of fans by surprise, as most were happy for Hoddle to come back.

Undoubtedly, it was a disaster and began the big slide.

[Trader]

Undoubtedly, it was a disaster and began the big slide.

 

There is tremendous doubt about that, when Sturrock left his record in the relegation season was:

 

P2 W1 LI

 

Midtable - hardly the start of the "big slide"

 

[Thedelldays]

There is tremendous doubt about that, when Sturrock left his record in the relegation season was:

 

P2 W1 LI

 

Midtable - hardly the start of the "big slide"

 

it was a honey moon period..

 

he was not and never been good enough above division 3....

[CB Fry]

Off to Wembley for the JPT.

 

Hats off to the man, he is astonishingly good at what he does and has been a succes at every club he's been at in the bottom two divisions. Don't know how he does it but he does.

 

When you look at the nauseating media w a nkathon over Di Canio like he is the second coming...wow, Paulo. One whole promotion from the bottom tier. Luggy has done that. And done it again and again at L1 and 2 level.

 

Add to that he isn't that well makes it even nicer to see him getting a day out at Wembley this season.

[Thedelldays]

Agree CB.

 

Think they will win too

[110_Persaint]

he was not and never been good enough above division 3....

Couldn't agree more. And Wenger is the best manager in world football.

[Colinjb]

Off to Wembley for the JPT.

 

Hats off to the man, he is astonishingly good at what he does and has been a succes at every club he's been at in the bottom two divisions. Don't know how he does it but he does.

 

When you look at the nauseating media w a nkathon over Di Canio like he is the second coming...wow, Paulo. One whole promotion from the bottom tier. Luggy has done that. And done it again and again at L1 and 2 level.

 

Add to that he isn't that well makes it even nicer to see him getting a day out at Wembley this season.

 

Glad to see him getting just deserts for the work he's had to do at Southend. Fingers crossed for them in the final.

[Graffito]

What sticks in my mind about Paul Sturrock is all the stuff at the time about him slurring his speech because he was a drunk. Comes out years later he has Parkinson's. We're far too quick to judge sometimes without knowing the facts.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

I always remember at the United game when we got relegated the pitch announcer announcing that Sturrock had phoned the club that morning to wish us luck.

[Dark Munster]

He was appointed instead of Hoddle a panic decision. Hoddle was always intended to be the manager, but certain members of the board took fright over a loud fan protest by a minority. Took the majority of fans by surprise, as most were happy for Hoddle to come back.

Undoubtedly, it was a disaster and began the big slide.

 

W5 D2 L6 = Mid-table form.

 

FFS Dalek, stop confusing Luggy with Wigley. Appointing him was the disaster that began the big slide (finished off with aplomb by Saggy).

[svetigpung]

I heard at the time that directing training at Staplewood sat on a chair leaning over the barrier with a cup of coffee contrasted with Strachan's in your face type approach - if you can't do it I will show you.

 

I spoke to a player of that era and he said Sturrocks training sessions were a joke.

As LB correctly stated , at Staplewood he would often be lying down on a bench speeking on his mobile for most the sessions.

Simply not professional enough. Should never have been appointed.

[Dalek2003]

I spoke to a player of that era and he said Sturrocks training sessions were a joke.

As LB correctly stated , at Staplewood he would often be lying down on a bench speeking on his mobile for most the sessions.

Simply not professional enough. Should never have been appointed.

 

Despite what others say, it was the start of the slide. The team became factured and then the appointments became even worse.

 

Sturrock was out of his depth from the start. The squad needed a revamp in 2004, but not a major one. Hoddle would have had the status to win the respect of the players currently there and he could have attracted new players. The hostility to Hoddle would have quickly melted away.

In some respects the situation after the sacking of NA has some similarities in that the fans felt unrest about the decision, but if we get better results then the fans will support what is best for the club.

I am sure this would have happened in 2004 had Hoddle been appointed as was intended. It is interesting that the vast majority of people are now coming round to my way of thinking. I suppose the passing of time allows a certain objectiveness on this issue.

Still, I don't expect the vocal minority to ever admit to their reckless behaviour

[Lord Duckhunter]

The squad needed a revamp in 2004, but not a major one. Hoddle would have had the status to win the respect of the players currently there and he could have attracted new players. The hostility to Hoddle would have quickly melted away.

 

Like it did at Wolves?

[Colinjb]

I spoke to a player of that era and he said Sturrocks training sessions were a joke.

As LB correctly stated , at Staplewood he would often be lying down on a bench speeking on his mobile for most the sessions.

Simply not professional enough. Should never have been appointed.

 

Yet his results record was perfectly acceptable. It's curious.

 

There are clubs where players back their manager to the hilt and have terrible form to show for it. (Wigley being a pertinent example.)

Edited 21 February, 2013 by Colinjb

[Thedelldays]

Yet his results record was perfectly acceptable. It's curious.There are clubs where players back their manager to the hilt and have terrible form to show for it.

it was a honeymoon period...much like when stuart gray beat united and arsenal.....we were avery good team capable of good results when sturrock first came....

[Colinjb]

it was a honeymoon period...much like when stuart gray beat united and arsenal.....we were avery good team capable of good results when sturrock first came....

 

But not for the prior ten games. There were issues before he arrived.

 

Why could Wigley and Redknapp not achieve the same effect?

[Crazy Diamond]

Off to Wembley for the JPT.

 

Hats off to the man, he is astonishingly good at what he does and has been a succes at every club he's been at in the bottom two divisions. Don't know how he does it but he does.

 

He's a firefighter essentially. Seems to thrive on chaos.

[Thedelldays]

But not for the prior ten games. There were issues before he arrived.

indeed..but we had players easily capabale of the results sturrock got...like any honeymoon period, players raised their game...probably much like with MP now......MPs biggest test (if we stay up) will be getting through the summer and dealing with a probably high turnover of players and getting the team ready and rolling for a new season................................I went to the plymouth friendly with luggy and you could tell from that we were in deep trouble...and we were

[Colinjb]

indeed..but we had players easily capabale of the results sturrock got...like any honeymoon period, players raised their game...probably much like with MP now......MPs biggest test (if we stay up) will be getting through the summer and dealing with a probably high turnover of players and getting the team ready and rolling for a new season................................I went to the plymouth friendly with luggy and you could tell from that we were in deep trouble...and we were

 

Then why could they do it for him but not Wigley or Redknapp?

[Thedelldays]

Then why could they do it for him but not Wigley or Redknapp?

is that an attempt to say luggy was a good manager for us in 2004/2005....the fact he got more out of the players than wigley and a redknapp that had no interest in being here..?

[Colinjb]

is that an attempt to say luggy was a good manager for us in 2004/2005....the fact he got more out of the players than wigley and a redknapp that had no interest in being here..?

 

No, it's a legitimate question asking what was it about Sturrock that allowed the players to have the honeymoon period when experienced clubman Steve Wigley and Harry 'motivated by spite at the time' Redknapp utterly failed to do so.

 

I am not disputing that Sturrock's face obviously didn't fit but he achieved more then those two men could with essentially the same squad. As I personally have already stated, I firmly believe we would have put up a far better fight that season had he remained then had he been sacked.

[Crazy Diamond]

Interesting that the view is that Sturrock presided over some good players. I'd suggest that he didn't, personally.

 

Everyone else around us strengthened and we didn't. We ended up with the likes of Mikael Nilsson.

[saint1977]

Well, well, it seems that the received wisdom on this thread about Luggy's tenure seems to be changing.

 

I've never understood the view that he was "out of his depth", his results by and large were pretty good.

 

I can understand Lowe being upset by his appearance and our so-called superstar players at the time perceiving that his lower league background not being good enough for them, but he really wasn't given a chance.

 

It was Lowe's ludicrous appointment of a coach in Wigley (especially as the previous cheap option Gray was a spectacular failure) that did for us that season.

 

This and the post by Crazy Diamond. I'd also agree with CB Fry in wishing Paul Sturrock well in the final and also for the rest of the L2 season. It was class to wish us well v Man U after he'd been shafted by SFC's toxic politics.

 

This point has been done to death on here but some people still don't get it - the club needed to either be sold in 2003 to build on the momentum or have a major investor brought on board to depose Askham and his other hangers on so that they could take their precious money and disappear. For Lowe's faults, of which there were many, it's not hard to list 5 positive things he did at SFC. Try doing that for Guy Askham. WGS knew he couldn't take us any further and we were in a death spiral after New Year 2004 to 2009. That squad was badly needing refreshing, we just needed a few experienced heads in their late 20s with PL experience to keep us top 10 until Bale, Theo, Lallana et al came through. What we got was Nilsson, Jakobsson, Van Dire and a clutch of other rubbish bar Crouch.

 

Where Lowe did screw up horrendously and relegated us in August 2004 was to sack Sturrock with no replacement. The board at the time should have over-ruled Lowe, it's not as if he had anywhere near a majority stake. The atmosphere at the Blackburn game was surreal, even though we won with a dodgy pen it was so quiet. The club had become very stale in a short space of time, the board were split into factions with no leadership.

 

Contrast that to now and it shows you how far we have revived. Still lots of work to do this season mind!

[Crazy Diamond]

This and the post by Crazy Diamond. I'd also agree with CB Fry in wishing Paul Sturrock well in the final and also for the rest of the L2 season. It was class to wish us well v Man U after he'd been shafted by SFC's toxic politics.

 

This point has been done to death on here but some people still don't get it - the club needed to either be sold in 2003 to build on the momentum or have a major investor brought on board to depose Askham and his other hangers on so that they could take their precious money and disappear. For Lowe's faults, of which there were many, it's not hard to list 5 positive things he did at SFC. Try doing that for Guy Askham. WGS knew he couldn't take us any further and we were in a death spiral after New Year 2004 to 2009. That squad was badly needing refreshing, we just needed a few experienced heads in their late 20s with PL experience to keep us top 10 until Bale, Theo, Lallana et al came through. What we got was Nilsson, Jakobsson, Van Dire and a clutch of other rubbish bar Crouch.

 

Where Lowe did screw up horrendously and relegated us in August 2004 was to sack Sturrock with no replacement. The board at the time should have over-ruled Lowe, it's not as if he had anywhere near a majority stake. The atmosphere at the Blackburn game was surreal, even though we won with a dodgy pen it was so quiet. The club had become very stale in a short space of time, the board were split into factions with no leadership.

 

Contrast that to now and it shows you how far we have revived. Still lots of work to do this season mind!

 

This is pretty much it, I have to say.

 

'Stale' really is the best way of describing it, it's as if we were more than happy to settle for average - but then again, settling for average in the modern day top flight is no bad thing. If you push too hard you can end up in financial ruin, if you don't push hard enough you end up relegated and could be out of the top flight for God knows how long.

 

Looking back we had a very average squad of players, and the young guns we were looking forward to seeing were not a patch on what we have now - Yoann Folly, Leandre Griffit etc. I also think we were way too reliant and sympathetic towards players that had been around for a while.

 

We immediately thrust Matt Oakley back into the team following his injury, and was he what we needed? A decent at best, unfit midfielder? What about Svensson, the years we waited on that guy were in hindsight, to my mind, wasted and a mistake. I think it's admirable we supported him, and the right thing to do, but really you have to know when to move on. He was never going to come back and be anywhere near his old self. Same with Pahars. Claus was shaky that season and we never really bothered to even contemplate replacing him. Things should have been freshened up.

 

Given that they weren't, did Sturrock have much of a chance? I don't think he did. Was he a Premier League quality manager? He'll never get that chance again and he didn't have much of a chance to prove himself so it's hard to say but I would suggest he probably wasn't.

 

Stale sums it up nicely.

[norwaysaint]

Well, well, it seems that the received wisdom on this thread about Luggy's tenure seems to be changing.

 

 

You're wrong there. Nothing's changing, and I've never yet seen a thread where anybody has really changed their minds from an argument. What you're seeing is different people posting different opinions, not some combined consciousness changing its mind. People viewed it differently and the fact is we'll never know how he would have done.

 

It's certainly true that his results weren't bad enough to warrant a sacking, but there are also strong rumours that his behind the scenes work was below the standards expected. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that it was just a honeymoon period, that's an empty opinion, but there's also not been any real evidence that we lost a manager who was at all remarkable.

 

I remember being surprised when he was absent from the pre-season friendly in Gøteborg.

[Dalek2003]

I am glad that this issue is back on the table.

 

People say it is history now, true, but it is important that we understand our history if we are not to make similar mistakes.

[scotty]

Then why could they do it for him but not Wigley or Redknapp?

 

 

Because Wigley was already here, and redknapps a skate c*nt?