Wenger

[dubai_phil]

They're only in the Champions League and top four (FFS) because of Wenger. Thats why they are a big club "by modern standards" (FFS) and Everton aren't.

 

If they'd stuck with, say, Bruce Rioch, they could now be just another middling Spurs, Villa, Everton or even worse Leeds, who won the league more recently than the pre-Arsene Arsenal.

 

Unless they come to terms with the problems they have (Ownership, Aims, Ambitions, Player retention Policies) then they will become a middling Spurs very quickly.

 

They ARE in big trouble they are being strained at best torn apart at worst and face losing the plot.

 

Football includes a mental aspect and as the attacks on Wenger from Fans and Media continue he becomes less effective.

 

They are a mess because they could not keep the likes of RVP and the current replacements are not good enough.

 

Unless they sort it out Wenger will be gone and they will become a Liverpool.

 

It should not be like that

[saints-cris]

They have gone so far backwards since the unbeatables. Who from their current team would even make it on their bench? Wilshire maybe?

 

His philisophy of going for youngsters has taken them backwards. They're a selling club. Making the top 4 is the best they can hope for, thats success to him now it seems.

 

Make no mistake, what he has achieved at Arsenal is unbelievable, but those days are so long ago now. Coming up to a decade without a trophy. Come on, Birmingham have been relegated 3 times since then and still won a trophy! Wenger royally messed up this week, rested players for the only silverware they could win, lost, and then got shown how far off the best they are against Munich.

 

They are falling further and further off.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I would say an empty trophy cabinet is all the evidence that is required.

 

Well it's not as if he hasn't won anything. Quite the opposite, he is in fact one of Arsenal's most successful managers.

 

4 FA Cups, 3 League Titles, 2 Doubles, a Champions League final.

 

Yeah poor manager.

 

All you are doing is showing how short-sighted you are, though we have seen this many times before.

 

Arsenal were a mid-table side when he took over, and quickly transformed them into title contenders and a team contesting titles and cups (Double in his first-full season).

 

He is also proving a perpetual myth-buster. Year-in, year-out finishing in the Top 4, whilst more-often than not making a net-profit in transfer dealings, and the club on the whole are profitable.

 

How does he achieve this? Oh yeah, by signing young players, developing them, utilising them effectively and then selling them on, more often than not at a pretty tidy profit. But that, doesn't happen does it? The only way to qualify for the Champions League is to spend silly money and run at a loss, that's what all the experts on here keep telling us.

 

I can't stand Wenger, I think he is annoying, blind, and a hypocrite (i.e. moaning about interest in Nasri whilst simultaneously talking about Oxo), but to say he is crap, or the reason for their 'lack of success' is just plain ignorant.

[Saint Garrett]

They have gone so far backwards since the unbeatables. Who from their current team would even make it on their bench? Wilshire maybe?

 

His philisophy of going for youngsters has taken them backwards. They're a selling club. Making the top 4 is the best they can hope for, thats success to him now it seems.

 

Make no mistake, what he has achieved at Arsenal is unbelievable, but those days are so long ago now. Coming up to a decade without a trophy. Come on, Birmingham have been relegated 3 times since then and still won a trophy! Wenger royally messed up this week, rested players for the only silverware they could win, lost, and then got shown how far off the best they are against Munich.

 

They are falling further and further off.

 

On another note I think the Champions League this year has shown how much poorer the top teams in the premiership are this season. Dortmund tore Man City apart, Galatasaray beat Man Utd, Schalke and Bayern Munchen embarrassed Arsenal, and even Shahktar were very unlucky against Chelsea.

[Thedelldays]

On another note I think the Champions League this year has shown how much poorer the top teams in the premiership are this season. Dortmund tore Man City apart, Galatasaray beat Man Utd, Schalke and Bayern Munchen embarrassed Arsenal, and even Shahktar were very unlucky against Chelsea.

been saying it all season...this seasons prem is poor compared to recent years

[saints-cris]

been saying it all season...this seasons prem is poor compared to recent years

 

Have to agree.. Man City should be running away with it. If Fergie had Man City's squad they'd be even further ahead than Man U are now.

 

Man U have an amazing attack, but the rest of them is not as good as it used to be.

[110_Persaint]

Or just that someone has run out of logical arguments.

 

I can't stand the bloke, but to say he's crap is just nonsense. That list you post is disingenuous, cole was sold in 2006. He never played with theo, and Nasri wasn't signed until 2008.

 

Yeah a lot of players were there, but most signed as kids, developed and usually sold on at a hefty profit at different points in their trophyless spell. It's not as if they were all at their peak whilst playing in the same team.

 

Though let's face it, you've shown yourself really, false facts and then resulting to "oh just suck his cock" when you are wrong.

 

What are you six?

You're only about sixteen years off mate. I concede I was wrong about Cole (replace him with Clichy - still class), but the rest of your argument doesn't hold water I'm afraid. Who signed those kids instead of proven players? Who OK'd selling them at a profit? Think last night's result is all the evidence you need that I'm right, you (and Bear) are wrong!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You're only about sixteen years off mate. I concede I was wrong about Cole (replace him with Clichy - still class), but the rest of your argument doesn't hold water I'm afraid. Who signed those kids instead of proven players? Who OK'd selling them at a profit? Think last night's result is all the evidence you need that I'm right, you (and Bear) are wrong!

 

Errrm how does it not?

 

Yes, he did sign them as kids - and look how good they became under his tutelage?

 

In most cases they sold these players as they wanted to continue running the club as a profitable entity, so refused to break their strict structures, meaning they found it hard to compete for top signings in a league with City/Chelsea distorting the market and therefore selling players such as RVP or Nasri before losing them for nothing.

 

The amount of young players he has signed relatively cheap. and then sold for £15+m is staggering.

 

Also, how does being beaten by one of the best teams in europe prove he is crap. A manager in charge of the same club, at the top level for the entirety of that period, can't really be judged on one game.

 

By that logic, was Fergie suddenly a crap manager after getting beaten 6-1 by City? Does last nights one game erase going an entire league season without defeat?

[Sour Mash]

You're only about sixteen years off mate. I concede I was wrong about Cole (replace him with Clichy - still class), but the rest of your argument doesn't hold water I'm afraid. Who signed those kids instead of proven players? Who OK'd selling them at a profit? Think last night's result is all the evidence you need that I'm right, you (and Bear) are wrong!

That Bayern team would comfortably beat any of the current Premier League teams, can't point the finger at Wenger for that.

[110_Persaint]

Yes, he did sign them as kids - and look how good they became under his tutelage?

A world class player is a world class player. If Messi signed for QPR he would not turn into crap. Likewise if Wigley or Poortvliet took over at Barcelona, chances are they'd still be one of Europe's best. It means nothing that a club once had great players. If they are sold and the team becomes crap, the team remains crap.

 

By that logic, was Fergie suddenly a crap manager after getting beaten 6-1 by City?

erm, how did they recover after that defeat? And how did Arsenal recover after losing to Blackburn? That's all to do with the manager. (morale, confidence, etc.)

 

Does last nights one game erase going an entire league season without defeat?

Get with the times mate. Wenger was great 10 or so years ago. I said he's been poor for "quite a while now" acknowledging he is a former great. Times have changed.

 

I'm just being as objective as possible. With all due respect mate the more you defend that french **** the more it seems like you have his **** in your mouth.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

All due respect, but if you disagree with me and think a successful manager is anything other than crap you must be sucking his cock?

 

Yet again, you are shifting the goal posts, you started by saying that the Bayern result proved it, now it's the Blackburn result? As Sour Mash said above, Bayern are one of the better teams in Europe, and for me one of the top contenders to win the CL.

 

When Utd lost to Barca, also 3-1 in the final was Fergie a poor manager? Nah, course not.

[Lighthouse]

I'm not so sure I really rate Wenger. I know he's been Arsenals best ever manager statistically and he's had them in the Champions League for feck knows how long but a lot of his success has been down to finding half a dozen decent players around the turn of the century.

 

He built a great team around Henry, Vieira, Pires, Campbell and Bergkamp which peaked in 2004. Since then age has taken it's toll on that team and the replacements have just been getting worse and worse. I mean Chamakh, Gervinho, Pascal Cygan FFS.

 

That's the difference between him and Fergie. The latter has been uncovering and developing talent for 2 decades. One generation of top players replaces another. Whereas Wenger looks fresh out of ideas buying anyone who looks sort of alright in France and chucking large sums of cash into our youth academy.

[110_Persaint]

Amen Lighthouse! You managed to articulate my thoughts in one post better than I was able to in five!

[sandwichsaint]

How many Arsenal players would get in the Saints side?

 

I was sat with some neutrals at the Chelsea away game and they said Clyne, Shaw and Morgan would all walk into their starting X1, reckon it could be more?

 

 

 

................... Boruc ........................

 

Clyne ..... Yoshi ...... ????? ....... Shaw

 

............ Morgan .... Wilshire ...............

 

Walcott .... Carzola ......... Podolski

 

............... SRL ........................

 

Bench

 

Arse GK

One CB from Fonte/Forren/Vermarlonnon

Arse's best FB (they haven't really got a good one)

Cork

Lallana / (Ox?)

Ramirez

Giroud

 

 

 

Are they getting worse or are we getting better? (or a bit of both?)

[Thedelldays]

sagna

vermaelen

monreal

arteta

wilshere

walcott

podolski

cazorla

[Saint Garrett]

Saints vs arse XI....

 

......................Boruc

Sagna koscielny vermaelen shaw

...........wilshere Morgan..............

Walcott.......Cazorla.....podolski

......................Giroud....................

[sandwichsaint]

sagna

vermaelen

monreal

arteta

wilshere

walcott

podolski

cazorla

 

Arteta better than Morgan this season?

 

Monreal better than Shaw? not seen much of him but he must be good!

 

Sagna?? absolute dross since he broke his leg (he used to be good), wouldn't get near Clyne on current form.

Edited 20 February, 2013 by sandwichsaint

[110_Persaint]

Great news for Arsenal! Now that Barcelona look set for an early exit the Gunners no longer have to face their bogey team in the coming rounds!

 

oh wait...

[SO5 4BW]

Obviously a brilliant manager in his day - he created the best team in Premier League history - but I think his day is now done

 

I think he was lucky when he first went to Arsenal in three respects, none of which he can repeat now. First he inherited the best defensive unit ever seen in English club football - and was smart enough not to change it too much for his first few years. Subsequent purchases of keepers or defenders - Sol Campbell apart - have not been to the same standard.

Second, even as late as the 90's training methods and diet at English clubs were well below continental standards. Wenger brought Arsenal up to speed, which initially gave them an advantage (and extended the careers of Adams, Keown etc). He also pioneered the use of statistical analysis in football - derived from the 'Moneyball' approach in Baseball. But other clubs have caught up - they all now also employ dieticians and statisticians, and don't let their players drink buckets of lager at weekends.

Third, Wenger came with an exhaustive knowledge of a great generation of French footballers. That particular source seems to have dried up - or at least other clubs have developed their scouting networks.

Wenger was a manager of his time, forcing the Premier League to adjust, taking it from a league mostly based on English players and English ways of doing things into a style based in European best practice. Other teams have caught up, his advantages have gone.

 

Have to admit that I never liked him, even though his teams have often been great to watch. I've got an antipathy towards him that I haven't got towards Ferguson. Part of it is the whole 'I couldn't see it' thing when some Arsenal player got sent off etc. Somebody like Wenger sees everything - he could probably recreate an entire game pass by pass - so this was also really annoying. I think the press were in awe of him so never pushed him on anything like this. Also he used to get on my nerves moaning about the physical tactics of some teams - well, duh, what are teams supposed to do? - roll over quietly? Ferguson, having managed the likes of Stirling Albion and St Mirren, and then Aberdeen against the Old Firm, never used to moan to the same extent.

 

With the situation at Arsenal - I think the owners are happy with Wenger if he delivers Champions League football every season. So far he has. This season he quite probably won't. When he doesn't he'll be gone

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I'm not so sure I really rate Wenger. I know he's been Arsenals best ever manager statistically and he's had them in the Champions League for feck knows how long but a lot of his success has been down to finding half a dozen decent players around the turn of the century.

 

He built a great team around Henry, Vieira, Pires, Campbell and Bergkamp which peaked in 2004. Since then age has taken it's toll on that team and the replacements have just been getting worse and worse. I mean Chamakh, Gervinho, Pascal Cygan FFS.

 

That's the difference between him and Fergie. The latter has been uncovering and developing talent for 2 decades. One generation of top players replaces another. Whereas Wenger looks fresh out of ideas buying anyone who looks sort of alright in France and chucking large sums of cash into our youth academy.

 

It still seems like you are belittling that achievement. Going an entire season unbeaten in any division is impressive, in the Premiership (like it or not, it's amongst the best there is - quality wise) that's truly incredible.

 

He's still managed to spot players with exceptional talent since then, and often brought them on and turned them into World Class players RVP & Fabregas being just two examples. Furthermore, he has also managed get the most out of some players, sell them on at a huge profit, and they then never match what they did at Arsenal, for example Nasri & Adebayor.

 

Yeah he's had some duds, although Cygan was part of the invincibles squad, pretty sure he gave away the free-kick Beattie scored in the 3-2 in 02/03 the season before. But even Fergie has, Taibi, Djemba, etc.

 

Amen Lighthouse! You managed to articulate my thoughts in one post better than I was able to in five!

 

Maybe because he formed an actual argument instead of, "you think he's good, you suck his cock".

[Lighthouse]

The invincibles was a good achievement, although I should point out that season could have gone very differently had Van Nistelrooy scored that penalty. If we were having this conversation back in 2004 I'd have agreed with you that Wenger was one of the best managers on the planet. However we aren't we're having this conversation 9 years later. He hasn't won anything since the FA Cup in 2005, a game they won on penalties after being dominated by Utd in the final. The closest they came was bottling the League Cup final against Brum a couple of years ago.

 

He has uncovered a few decent young players in the time since but they have been few and far between. RVP, Fabregas, Nasri and Adebayor are probably the only top class players I can think of in that time. Wilshere I'm sure will be a top player but he's not there yet and is vastly overrated by some who want him to be England captain. He was outplayed completely by Cork and Morgan a few weeks ago.

 

The fact is that he hasn't won anything for 8 years and I can't see that changing next year. There squad is full of crap players basically. They have a decent enough first XI with Szcszsczscszenszy in goal, Vermaelen, Theo, Cazorla, Ramsey, Wilshere and possibly AOC. Beyond that though they've got the likes of Squillaci, Koscielny, Coquelin, Gervinho. Giroud will have to improve to justify his price tag. Rosicky and Arshavin just look like they can't be arsed half the time.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Someone's reappearance on here reminded me of this thread.

 

So, do people still think Wenger is over the hill?

[Saint_clark]

I think Arsenal have more than enough money to challenge for the title, trouble is it's not made available for him as the owners would rather it all get split between the shareholders. Totally wrong.

 

Lo and behold, they actually spend their millions and they're challenging again.