HMP Aylesbury

[capitalsaint]

Pap, I think you are probably right in terms of how it should/could be done to create the perfect system. Problem is, there is a fundamental issue.........us.......human beings...........we are jealous, greedy, self centred, competitive and focused on our local environment. Capitalism is what gets the best out of us with all those flaws. Ultimately as a people we are better at pragmatism than idealism.

 

And if you really wanted to be devil's advocate you could suggest that it is this greed which fuels the desire for communism. People at the bottom can see they would get more if everything was preallocated. Rather than struggling to rent a house or whatever they'd be given one by the state, same for food and a job.

[pap]

And if you really wanted to be devil's advocate you could suggest that it is this greed which fuels the desire for communism. People at the bottom can see they would get more if everything was preallocated. Rather than struggling to rent a house or whatever they'd be given one by the state, same for food and a job.

 

Are you telling us that the desire for food and accommodation is greed? I'd say those were basic human provisions. Hunger would be a better term.

 

I appreciate that you're playing devil's advocate, but I don't really think you can call it greed, especially when you compare the rampant levels of greed that occur in legitimate financial institutions. Wasn't the whole of the financial crisis brought about by greed? The acute situation in Greece? Could never have happened without the greed of those that lent the money to the country in the first place. They knew that Greece would never be able to pay it back, but the EU as a whole would have to.

 

Then you've got ambulance chasing solicitors, legalised loan sharks, Indian IT call centre scammers (yes, they've more than graduated from the "run of the mill" trying to sell you sh!t phase) and a panoply of other greedy bastards out there trying to fleece everyone every day. If we are talking about greed as something we want to avoid, capitalism looks even worse than a planned economy.

[pap]

Pap, I think you are probably right in terms of how it should/could be done to create the perfect system. Problem is, there is a fundamental issue.........us.......human beings...........we are jealous, greedy, self centred, competitive and focused on our local environment. Capitalism is what gets the best out of us with all those flaws. Ultimately as a people we are better at pragmatism than idealism.

 

Ta Brussels. I do realise I'm a massive idealist, which makes it very easy for people without many ideas to come in and say "hur hur, look at pap's dreamworld".

 

The points you bring up are well worth raising though, 'cos you're right - the ostensible greed of humanity is seemingly a sticking point that we won't get over. I've never been entirely convinced that we all despise each other as much as the hate machine claims. I also think that some may find the scope of the mission, provision for all and world peace, a bit of a reach

 

I can't say that I've ever handled a project of that magnitude before ( if I had, there'd be 70ft billboards of me everywhere to inspire the workers! ), but I have handled complex projects with so many moving parts as to make the thing look unachieveable. Wasn't it industrialist Henry Ford who said that "nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs"?

 

So yep, I can appreciate that solving the problems of the entire world at once is an ask. That doesn't mean we can't try the same thing on a smaller scale. If it were me, I'd suggest starting with small groups of people, scaling up and working out what the kinks were at each stage.

[Torres]

hur hur, look at pap's dreamworld

[pap]

hur hur, look at pap's dreamworld

 

 

Bugger off and get your own

[Tokyo-Saint]

On the greed point Pap - it is greed to want food and housing if you are not willing to contribute anything into the massive pot called society. People should be at least willing to contribute something, even if it is just cleaning their own **** up and making their own surrounding respectable. The problem is, a small percentage of society isnt willing to do anything at all. There is also a small percentage of society at the other end who want everything for very little as well. The difference being they are educated and know how to cream massive amounts off the system. They are both wrong and the actions of one should not be used to divert from or justify the actions of others.

[pap]

On the greed point Pap - it is greed to want food and housing if you are not willing to contribute anything into the massive pot called society. People should be at least willing to contribute something, even if it is just cleaning their own **** up and making their own surrounding respectable. The problem is, a small percentage of society isnt willing to do anything at all. There is also a small percentage of society at the other end who want everything for very little as well. The difference being they are educated and know how to cream massive amounts off the system. They are both wrong and the actions of one should not be used to divert from or justify the actions of others.

 

Society doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of a cohesive whole working toward a common goal. You can get evidence of that on this forum; look at the way that people are ready to blame others or even sterilise those that don't conform with their idea of what a functional person should be. Look at the impact of multiculturalism, the self-segregation, the weak-minded white Briton blaming everyone else for his problems.

 

And what do you say to people like me, who routinely toss HMRC 40K a year? I'm contributing more than the average person makes gross, yet I utterly reject the directionless soon-to-be-dystopia that we seem to be creating. What does the 40K p.a. I give to the government actually get me? What influence do I have on where that money goes? One fkng vote in a safe seat in a rigged system?

 

You talk of contribution to society like it's a genuine two way thing. Personally, I think it's fkng poor value for money.

[Tokyo-Saint]

I agree, I have an SME so also chuck more money that I earn do the black hole. However it is again clouding the issue, answering question A with a point from section B.

[Sour Mash]

Society doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of a cohesive whole working toward a common goal. You can get evidence of that on this forum; look at the way that people are ready to blame others or even sterilise those that don't conform with their idea of what a functional person should be. Look at the impact of multiculturalism, the self-segregation, the weak-minded white Briton blaming everyone else for his problems.

 

And what do you say to people like me, who routinely toss HMRC 40K a year? I'm contributing more than the average person makes gross, yet I utterly reject the directionless soon-to-be-dystopia that we seem to be creating. What does the 40K p.a. I give to the government actually get me? What influence do I have on where that money goes? One fkng vote in a safe seat in a rigged system?

 

You talk of contribution to society like it's a genuine two way thing. Personally, I think it's fkng poor value for money.

"Society doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of a cohesive whole working toward a common goal" - that isn't the definiton of "society" though. What do you want in exchange for your £40k p.a.? The current system has served 99% of us brilliantly, as has human greed.

[shurlock]

People are neither selfish nor altruistic - they are conditional altruists, they will cooperate and contribute to the public good, often at significance personal cost, if they believe others are. What people don't like is being taken for a mug or a ride. The task of government should be to assure others that people are doing their bit so that this kind of voluntary action can be created and sustained.

Edited 21 February, 2013 by shurlock

[pap]

I agree, I have an SME so also chuck more money that I earn do the black hole. However it is again clouding the issue, answering question A with a point from section B.

 

Your point was about contribution to this thing called society.

 

I think we've demonstrated that the concept doesn't really exist in any meaningful way, so let's tell it like it is. Contributors like ourselves pay for an organisation to run the country. These organisations have continually failed at this task, yet have the audacity to label its citizens as feckless scroungers when they, or their predecessors, created many of the conditions that keep the poor where they are. Lack of jobs, overbalancing the wrong parts of the economy, expanding the labour market to 500 million. All of this stuff adds up, has a massive impact, and has almost bugger all to do with the actions of the unemployed and a great deal to do with the politicians who'd have us tearing strips from one another. I'm not saying that these people are moustache-twirling villains overtly committing acts of evil, but they sure do facilitate it.

 

They get away with it because the transient nature of Parliaments, particularly when you have a change of party in government, gives politicians ample opportunities to wash their hands of all the bad policy that went before by blaming the previous lot. Strangely, they keep the unpopular money spinners that they campaigned against in opposition.

 

Sorry mucker, but it seems to me that we're just throwing good money after bad. I would have no problem with the "contribution to society" angle if such a thing as society existed and was worth fighting for, or even if we had a complete range of options on the table. We don't. Returning to the original point, prisons. How many people are in nick right now because of drug-related offences? How much money are we spending banging doors down on domiciles with particularly high electricity bills? Why is that even necessary? This is a concrete example of how a decision made by politicians ("drugs are bad, m'kay") has led to more problems down the line. The amazing thing is, it's not like these people didn't have precedent when they made these calls. Prohibition in 1930s America? Didn't that give rise to a load of gangsters? So it is with narcotics, to the point where entire countries are bandit havens.

 

Interesting article about drugs and UK prisons here:-

 

http://www.tdpf.org.uk/MediaNews_FactResearchGuide_prisons.htm

[dickyhale]

Had a letter today from my mate in HMP Winchester he enclosed the menu for next week (YULK) see there plenty of beef on the menu but NO wine list LOL

 

[bridge too far]

Just read this article in the Guardian

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people?CMP=SOCNETTXT6966

 

Food for thought?