HMP Aylesbury

[ericofarabia]

A photocopier jam somewhere?

 

Tsk .... just when you were playing so nicely

[iansums]

I actually quite liked OldNick's post apart from that one piece. I just took it for a throwaway comment, and didn't bother pressing him on it.

 

Given that you seem quite sure about the need to do this, perhaps you'd like to expand upon your ideas. Who would make the call on whether someone gets a free (and mandatory) state sponsored sterilisation? Would it be normal people like yourself? Working people? Medical professionals?

 

This is the problem with so called right-wing thinking. There is none. It's largely unsubstantiated hatred and ignorance, tied to a political view that actively seeks to capitalise on the ignorance of its adherents.

 

Working great so far. Country is full of hateful morons.

 

And the problem with so called left-wing thinking is that it costs the earth and actually ends up making things worse.

[pap]

And the problem with so called left-wing thinking is that it costs the earth and actually ends up making things worse.

 

I note you didn't answer the question. How are you going to decide who is sterilised by the state?

[Thedelldays]

I could give my dog a copy of the Oxford Dictionary, leave it for a decade and STILL have more insight about that book than my dog after ten years of canine study.

 

My point? You may have travelled the world, TDD, but judging from the insight offered in your posts, I could probably write what you've actually learned on my cock. In large print. And I'm not a big man.

 

I doubt that.

 

 

Carry in though. Experiencing the world through the eyes of your favourite guardian journalist

[Tokyo-Saint]

Tsk .... just when you were playing so nicely

 

Turks doesn't come on here to play nicely. He wants to 'bully' people, get ignored and then told about it and then get a bit of **** himself, this is called banter. My role is part 3.

[pap]

I doubt that.

 

 

Carry in though. Experiencing the world through the eyes of your favourite guardian journalist

 

Yes, mate. My entire political philosophy is centred around the teachings of Barry Glendenning.

[OldNick]

I actually quite liked OldNick's post apart from that one piece. I just took it for a throwaway comment, and didn't bother pressing him on it.

 

Given that you seem quite sure about the need to do this, perhaps you'd like to expand upon your ideas. Who would make the call on whether someone gets a free (and mandatory) state sponsored sterilisation? Would it be normal people like yourself? Working people? Medical professionals?

 

This is the problem with so called right-wing thinking. There is none. It's largely unsubstantiated hatred and ignorance, tied to a political view that actively seeks to capitalise on the ignorance of its adherents.

 

Working great so far. Country is full of hateful morons.

without a doubt the idea would not happen, and seems pretty tough and a bad thing to do. On the other hand is it fair to the tortured individuals who are brought into the world and never know the meaning of true love and affection growing up in the family home.Some people do not deserve to haver children. I was staying in peterboro last week and was walking out of the town centre on the most bitter evening. A young mother was pushing along a small child 12-18months, the mother was wrapped up to the nines and the baby only had a baby grow on.What future has she got?

[Turkish]

And not everyone who's been inside will have had the awareness to think about what it all means.

A lot of the difference between left and right ultimatelt boils down to issues of responsibility: who is responsible for actions -the individual or society- and what should be done about it -punish or assist. Someone on the right will attribute problems to the individual and rule out the possibility that people can be dealt s****y hands and be victims of wrong time wrong place - which is enough for them to deserve their lot. I guess that's not where you come from.

 

and thats the problem with claiming your views are one thing or another. Some ofmy views are probably right, some left and some in the middle, take each invidiual case on its own merits and not try and be one thing or another depending what you think people expect you to think.

[pap]

without a doubt the idea would not happen, and seems pretty tough and a bad thing to do. On the other hand is it fair to the tortured individuals who are brought into the world and never know the meaning of true love and affection growing up in the family home.Some people do not deserve to haver children. I was staying in peterboro last week and was walking out of the town centre on the most bitter evening. A young mother was pushing along a small child 12-18months, the mother was wrapped up to the nines and the baby only had a baby grow on.What future has she got?

 

Perspective is important. I get just as upset as you do when I see kids that aren't well looked after, but then I also recognise that the kid in the babygro has STILL won life's lottery by being born here, in this country and at this time. She has a much better future, at least in theory, than a kid in the developing world.

 

The other thing that is important is priority. As a nation, I think we idolise our kids; but its a highly specific thing these days. No-one really gives a crap about other peoples' kids, what they do or what they get up to. They have a saying in Africa, "it takes a village to raise a child". I think there is a lot to that. I certainly remember getting told off by neighbours, etc - and my mum having no problem with that if deserved. Problem is, we have very few villages left in this country, at least in the communal "we know and trust our neighbours" sense.

 

I think we need to take more collective responsibility for our kids.

[Essruu]

 

Given that you seem quite sure about the need to do this, perhaps you'd like to expand upon your ideas. Who would make the call on whether someone gets a free (and mandatory) state sponsored sterilisation? Would it be normal people like yourself? Working people? Medical professionals?

 

 

Anybody who is receives benefits (i.e. who cannot support themselves, let alone children) should receive a weekly/fortnightly/monthly (however they they receive their free money) sterilisation injection. Only when they are working and can afford to support themselves like the rest of us - without the need for income support, housing benefit or whatever else - should the benefit injections cease.

[Turkish]

Anybody who is receives benefits (i.e. who cannot support themselves, let alone children) should receive a weekly/fortnightly/monthly (however they they receive their free money) sterilisation injection. Only when they are working and can afford to support themselves like the rest of us - without the need for income support, housing benefit or whatever else - should the benefit injections cease.

 

Do you mean someone like this? She needs her gash sown up.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280385/Jobless-mother-11-Heather-Frost-6-bed-eco-house-moaning-TWO-council-homes-cramped.html

Edited 20 February, 2013 by Turkish

[pap]

Anybody who is receives benefits (i.e. who cannot support themselves, let alone children) should receive a weekly/fortnightly/monthly (however they they receive their free money) sterilisation injection. Only when they are working and can afford to support themselves like the rest of us - without the need for income support, housing benefit or whatever else - should the benefit injections cease.

 

What happens if someone refuses? Stormtroopers? Going to start locking people up because they won't let the government inject them with chemicals?

 

Castration for repeat offenders?

[Big Bad Bob]

Anybody who is receives benefits (i.e. who cannot support themselves, let alone children) should receive a weekly/fortnightly/monthly (however they they receive their free money) sterilisation injection. Only when they are working and can afford to support themselves like the rest of us - without the need for income support, housing benefit or whatever else - should the benefit injections cease.

 

What happens if someone refuses? Stormtroopers? Going to start locking people up because they won't let the government inject them with chemicals?

 

Castration for repeat offenders?

 

I've always thought that people should be chemically sterilised at birth and when they meet certain criteria (yet to be decided, probably IQ of 140+, blonde hair, blue eyes etc. etc.) they then get the anti sterilisation.

[Tokyo-Saint]

It's not like the daily mail to focus on that kind of story, what's going on? Not even a single mention of an immigrant or a gypsy.

 

I find myself agreeing with Turkish yet again. It's like Chris Rock says, I am left wing on some issues and right wing on other issues, smoking weed - I can take a left wing approach, vandalising my car - I am very right wing.

 

Anyway, where are the prison stories Turks?

[Spudders]

It's not like the daily mail to focus on that kind of story, what's going on? Not even a single mention of an immigrant or a gypsy.

 

I find myself agreeing with Turkish yet again. It's like Chris Rock says, I am left wing on some issues and right wing on other issues, smoking weed - I can take a left wing approach, vandalising my car - I am very right wing.

 

Anyway, where are the prison stories Turks?

I like Chris Rock, purchased a couple of his live stand up shows last night (little fact for you there!)

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Do you mean someone like this? She needs her gash sown up.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280385/Jobless-mother-11-Heather-Frost-6-bed-eco-house-moaning-TWO-council-homes-cramped.html

 

What a quote!

 

Furious neighbour: 'It's a disgrace. She treats her womb like a clown car'

[This Charming Man]

What happens if someone refuses? Stormtroopers? Going to start locking people up because they won't let the government inject them with chemicals?

 

Castration for repeat offenders?

 

Then you stop their benefits.

[pap]

I've always thought that people should be chemically sterilised at birth and when they meet certain criteria (yet to be decided, probably IQ of 140+, blonde hair, blue eyes etc. etc.) they then get the anti sterilisation.

 

Always thought?

 

Blimey. Didn't realise we had local branches of the Hitler Youth I was a Boys Brigade lad, meself (although not for long).

[This Charming Man]

What a quote!

 

Furious neighbour: 'It's a disgrace. She treats her womb like a clown car'

 

Haha. Sounds like a quote The Sun would make up!

[Tokyo-Saint]

Then you stop their benefits.

 

So their children go without and the cycle continues?

 

 

The poorer people are the more kids they have - this is a fact. The countries with the lowest birth rates are the countries with the largest proportion of people that count themselves as being 'middle class'. These countries also find themselves with a ageing population and a pension crisis.

[pap]

Then you stop their benefits.

 

Funny how all your solutions lead to more problems, right wingers.

 

So let me get this straight, the general revised plan is:-

 

Put anyone on benefits on state-sponsored contraception.

If they refuse this, their benefits are stopped.

 

So what happens if these people already have kids? Gonna punish them too by not giving mum any money? That's going to be great for their life chances, eh?

 

The problem with your fictive dream on everyone being off benefits is that it depends on their being a decent employment market out there AND a cost of living that incentivises the practice of going to work. Neither exists, and won't for a long time. Our executive class, largely at the behest of greedy middle-class shareholders, have spent the past three decades putting any job they could find on a boat.

[Torres]

Our executive class, largely at the behest of greedy middle-class shareholders, have spent the past three decades putting any job they could find on a boat.

 

Trouble is pappy, that the alternative (state-subsidised industries making crap that nobody wants employng everyone over the age of 16) isn't sustainable. And then everyone's in the do-do, not just a minority.

[Big Bad Bob]

Always thought?

 

Blimey. Didn't realise we had local branches of the Hitler Youth I was a Boys Brigade lad, meself (although not for long).

 

Didn't the Captain show much interest in you then??

[This Charming Man]

Funny how all your solutions lead to more problems, right wingers.

 

So let me get this straight, the general revised plan is:-

 

Put anyone on benefits on state-sponsored contraception.

If they refuse this, their benefits are stopped.

 

So what happens if these people already have kids? Gonna punish them too by not giving mum any money? That's going to be great for their life chances, eh?

 

The problem with your fictive dream on everyone being off benefits is that it depends on their being a decent employment market out there AND a cost of living that incentivises the practice of going to work. Neither exists, and won't for a long time. Our executive class, largely at the behest of greedy middle-class shareholders, have spent the past three decades putting any job they could find on a boat.

 

Obviously it would have to be fazed in over time. You couldn't just say it's going to start next Wednesday. Anyone with children already would be catered for.

 

What incentive is there to actually go to work when people can earn similar or even in some cases more on benefits than they would earn working 37hrs a week?

[Big Bad Bob]

Funny how all your solutions lead to more problems, right wingers.

 

So let me get this straight, the general revised plan is:-

 

Put anyone on benefits on state-sponsored contraception.

If they refuse this, their benefits are stopped.

 

So what happens if these people already have kids? Gonna punish them too by not giving mum any money? That's going to be great for their life chances, eh?

 

The problem with your fictive dream on everyone being off benefits is that it depends on their being a decent employment market out there AND a cost of living that incentivises the practice of going to work. Neither exists, and won't for a long time. Our executive class, largely at the behest of greedy middle-class shareholders, have spent the past three decades putting any job they could find on a boat.

 

What's the alternative, communism/marxism, that's been shown to work hasn't it...

[Sour Mash]

How about this - anyone that doesn't achieve 5 or more A*- C GCSEs get's steralised on their 17th birthday?

[pap]

Obviously it would have to be fazed in over time. You couldn't just say it's going to start next Wednesday. Anyone with children already would be catered for.

 

What incentive is there to actually go to work when people can earn similar or even in some cases more on benefits than they would earn working 37hrs a week?

 

With respect TCM, it's a vile idea that shouldn't be implemented under any circumstances, something I'd have expected to see from a hardline Chinese Communist government. That's basically what they do, isn't it? Ok, so they don't means test as you suggest, but their meddling in the natural order of things has led to incalculable long term problems.

 

What you suggest is actually worse, effectively being a form of social eugenics. Stop the poor from breeding.

[PhilippineSaint]

Obviously it would have to be fazed in over time. You couldn't just say it's going to start next Wednesday. Anyone with children already would be catered for.

 

What incentive is there to actually go to work when people can earn similar or even in some cases more on benefits than they would earn working 37hrs a week?

 

I wish I only worked 37 hours a week

 

12 hours at work next 12 on call for 28 days at a stretch. even longer if you cant get off on time or your replacement doesn't turn up.

[bridge too far]

Obviously it would have to be fazed in over time. You couldn't just say it's going to start next Wednesday. Anyone with children already would be catered for.

 

What incentive is there to actually go to work when people can earn similar or even in some cases more on benefits than they would earn working 37hrs a week?

 

Turn it on its head - maybe if some wages weren't so **** poor, people WOULD be better off working than on benefits.

[pap]

What's the alternative, communism/marxism, that's been shown to work hasn't it...

 

We've never seen it. None of the communist revolutions ever got past the reorganisational dictatorship stage. When Trotsky tried to reorient the Soviet movement back along former Marxist lines, he got an icepick for his trouble.

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm not positing Communism as some of solution. I don't know how it'd work out; but the ideals of that movement - that everything belongs to the people, needs-based economies etc, are things that interest me greatly. Furthermore, many of the things that we are worried about, such as the financial crisis and paying back all those bankers, just wouldn't be a thing under a planned economy. Yet we're told that this hardship is inevitable. It clearly isn't, because under a different system, it wouldn't f**king exist! This is not a "there is no more food on the planet" kind of a problem.

 

I suppose what really irks me is how much bloody waste there all is under capitalism. There's the competition element, obviously - tons of people making different things aimed at different parts of the market. Then you've got all the professions that wouldn't exist without it, such as accountancy, stock brokers, sales people, marketing people, advertising executives. Sorry, but none of those jobs are necessary. They just exist because capitalism does. Complete waste of human potential, imo. We all go through the grinder every week and for what? To get a piece of something that under a different system, would be yours by right? To pay exorbitant sums for accommodation that should have been yours from birth? Capitalism doesn't work either, not locally and definitely not globally.

[This Charming Man]

Turn it on its head - maybe if some wages weren't so **** poor, people WOULD be better off working than on benefits.

 

Maybe if people weren't so thick, they would be able to command a better wage. Hence why if the poor (who also tend to be a bit simple, hence their lack of money) were to stop breeding in such vast numbers, over time we may be able to cleanse the gene pool and slowly raise the average IQ.

[This Charming Man]

I wish I only worked 37 hours a week

 

12 hours at work next 12 on call for 28 days at a stretch. even longer if you cant get off on time or your replacement doesn't turn up.

 

Same here. I work 12hr days, 5/6 days a week. So it does always rile me when I see these layabouts blagging off the state and then having the audacity to moan about it.

[OldNick]

. Stop the poor from breeding.

It is not about the poor, it is about dysfunctional people who should not be allowed to keep a spider let alone a child.

it is not about wealth IMO

[Thedelldays]

It is not about the poor, it is about dysfunctional people who should not be allowed to keep a spider let alone a child.it is not about wealth IMO

agree..people should be educated far more that if you dont have a kid unless you can afford to pay for him/her until they leave home

[pap]

It is not about the poor, it is about dysfunctional people who should not be allowed to keep a spider let alone a child.

it is not about wealth IMO

 

So who gets to define dysfunctional?

 

What is dysfunctional?

[bridge too far]

agree..people should be educated far more that if you dont have a kid unless you can afford to pay for him/her until they leave home

 

Educated to the point that they can write a sentence that makes sense, you mean?

[PhilippineSaint]

Educated to the point that they can write a sentence that makes sense, you mean?

 

This

 

but don't quote me on anything I have ever said on this forum.

[This Charming Man]

So who gets to define dysfunctional?

 

The Daily Mail.

[Torres]

I suppose what really irks me is how much bloody waste there all is under capitalism. There's the competition element, obviously - tons of people making different things aimed at different parts of the market. Then you've got all the professions that wouldn't exist without it, such as accountancy, stock brokers, sales people, marketing people, advertising executives. Sorry, but none of those jobs are necessary. They just exist because capitalism does. Complete waste of human potential, imo. We all go through the grinder every week and for what? To get a piece of something that under a different system, would be yours by right? To pay exorbitant sums for accommodation that should have been yours from birth? Capitalism doesn't work either, not locally and definitely not globally.

 

Let's all go back to subsistence farming! Yeah!

[OldNick]

So who gets to define dysfunctional?

 

What is dysfunctional?

well I assume the civil service after all they bring up the rules regarding care etc etc

[pap]

Let's all go back to subsistence farming! Yeah!

 

Let's have no food or energy security! Yeah!

[pap]

well I assume the civil service after all they bring up the rules regarding care etc etc

 

Sorry sir. You only answered one of my questions, and not satisfactorily.

 

However, your "let someone else sort it out" attitude is typical.

 

You moan about people with no responsibility, yet cannot take responsibility for even defining what criteria your idea should be applied under.

 

I can see why you might be reluctant to espouse your views on who shouldn't or should be allowed to breed. Whole can 'o worms, OldNick - but tbf, that was open anyway. I'd just like to know if there is any thought whatsoever behind your proposals.

[Big Bad Bob]

I suppose what really irks me is how much bloody waste there all is under capitalism. There's the competition element, obviously - tons of people making different things aimed at different parts of the market. Then you've got all the professions that wouldn't exist without it, such as accountancy, stock brokers, sales people, marketing people, advertising executives. Sorry, but none of those jobs are necessary. They just exist because capitalism does. Complete waste of human potential, imo. We all go through the grinder every week and for what? To get a piece of something that under a different system, would be yours by right? To pay exorbitant sums for accommodation that should have been yours from birth? Capitalism doesn't work either, not locally and definitely not globally.

 

It's a wonderful utopian view isn't it but who is going to provide the goods that everybody has a right to from birth?

 

Obviously there are going to be a few altruists who will build the houses etc. but what do they get for it?

 

Food will come from the agriculturists but then who decides what that food is worth? And what if they decide that the house is theirs by birth right so they shouldn't have to provide food for the builders!

 

And who's going to provide the specialist services, TVs, cars etc. etc. oh hold on they'll all do it out of the goodness of their hearts!

 

The capitalist/barter system has evolved over many, many years. It may not be perfect but it seems a whole let better than doing a job for nothing. Why should a skilled worker get the same as someone who tills a field?

[pap]

It's a wonderful utopian view isn't it but who is going to provide the goods that everybody has a right to from birth?

 

Obviously there are going to be a few altruists who will build the houses etc. but what do they get for it?

 

Food will come from the agriculturists but then who decides what that food is worth? And what if they decide that the house is theirs by birth right so they shouldn't have to provide food for the builders!

 

And who's going to provide the specialist services, TVs, cars etc. etc. oh hold on they'll all do it out of the goodness of their hearts!

 

The capitalist/barter system has evolved over many, many years. It may not be perfect but it seems a whole let better than doing a job for nothing. Why should a skilled worker get the same as someone who tills a field?

 

Capitalism was ruined the moment globalisation became a thing.

 

Let's just focus on ourselves for a bit. What is the economic trajectory for this country? Do you see this capitalism thing working for us over the long-term? Where are our kids and grandkids going to work in the future?

 

Globalisation kickstarted a race to the bottom. The jobs are gone, and as long as profit motive is the primary consideration, they're never coming back.

 

As for your last point, someone who pulls food out of a field is worth a million skilled workers, if that skilled worker's job is ultimately meaningless.

[pap]

Trouble is pappy, that the alternative (state-subsidised industries making crap that nobody wants employng everyone over the age of 16) isn't sustainable. And then everyone's in the do-do, not just a minority.

 

Apologist rubbish, sir.

 

In a different age these men would have been sent to the Tower for treason.

[Thedelldays]

It's difficult to favour paps dream society when the best examples are soviet Russia, North Korea and Cuba

 

It's a toughie

[pap]

It's difficult to favour paps dream society when the best examples are soviet Russia, North Korea and Cuba

 

It's a toughie

 

And yet it's easy to ratchet up 35K comments without actually saying anything.

 

Emptiest vessels, eh mate?

[Brussels Saint]

So their children go without and the cycle continues?

 

 

The poorer people are the more kids they have - this is a fact. The countries with the lowest birth rates are the countries with the largest proportion of people that count themselves as being 'middle class'. These countries also find themselves with a ageing population and a pension crisis.

 

Tokes........i've thought of a solution for the pension crisis/aging population problem............mass immigration. What do you reckon, I'm surprised our leaders have not thought of this yet!

Middle class daily mail readers, cut back on your favourite cause of all our problems and start knocking the missus up. Less chintz sofa's and more breeding = less requirement for our foreign friends to pay into our collective future.

[Brussels Saint]

We've never seen it. None of the communist revolutions ever got past the reorganisational dictatorship stage. When Trotsky tried to reorient the Soviet movement back along former Marxist lines, he got an icepick for his trouble.

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm not positing Communism as some of solution. I don't know how it'd work out; but the ideals of that movement - that everything belongs to the people, needs-based economies etc, are things that interest me greatly. Furthermore, many of the things that we are worried about, such as the financial crisis and paying back all those bankers, just wouldn't be a thing under a planned economy. Yet we're told that this hardship is inevitable. It clearly isn't, because under a different system, it wouldn't f**king exist! This is not a "there is no more food on the planet" kind of a problem.

 

I suppose what really irks me is how much bloody waste there all is under capitalism. There's the competition element, obviously - tons of people making different things aimed at different parts of the market. Then you've got all the professions that wouldn't exist without it, such as accountancy, stock brokers, sales people, marketing people, advertising executives. Sorry, but none of those jobs are necessary. They just exist because capitalism does. Complete waste of human potential, imo. We all go through the grinder every week and for what? To get a piece of something that under a different system, would be yours by right? To pay exorbitant sums for accommodation that should have been yours from birth? Capitalism doesn't work either, not locally and definitely not globally.

 

Pap, I think you are probably right in terms of how it should/could be done to create the perfect system. Problem is, there is a fundamental issue.........us.......human beings...........we are jealous, greedy, self centred, competitive and focused on our local environment. Capitalism is what gets the best out of us with all those flaws. Ultimately as a people we are better at pragmatism than idealism.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Tokes........i've thought of a solution for the pension crisis/aging population problem............mass immigration. What do you reckon, I'm surprised our leaders have not thought of this yet!

Middle class daily mail readers, cut back on your favourite cause of all our problems and start knocking the missus up. Less chintz sofa's and more breeding = less requirement for our foreign friends to pay into our collective future.

 

That's a good idea, if only we could be a member of some kind of union. You like if we agreed to have an association or something with the other European countries. What we could do is let people in from those countries and then when people moan about all the foreigners "dey took our jobs" etc, we can stop letting international students in or people from outside of that union. People will be too dumb to see that the students from outside of that union aren't the ones taking the building and cleaning work.