North Korea

[jawillwill]

Nutters?

[ToreSF]

Yep.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Yep - keep test firing missiles over Japan. Can you imagine if France was test firing their misiles so they flew over us? Everyone would go mad about it.

[Thedelldays]

Hell yes.

[alpine_saint]

If they can weaponise a nuke, they are in a perfect position, between S. Korea, China and Japan, to blackmail the entire planet. And its not an empty threat with them, I reckon.

 

Very disappointing in a time where both N. Korea and Iran are galloping towards nuke development, that we have such a weak inept US President in the Whitehouse, who has completely ignored the lessons of history that appeasement or containment doesnt work.

[hypochondriac]

If they can weaponise a nuke, they are in a perfect position, between S. Korea, China and Japan, to blackmail the entire planet. And its not an empty threat with them, I reckon.

 

Very disappointing in a time where both N. Korea and Iran are galloping towards nuke development, that we have such a weak inept US President in the Whitehouse, who has completely ignored the lessons of history that appeasement or containment doesnt work.

 

Ah yes because George Bush's tactics worked perfectly.

[Jonnyboy]

If they can weaponise a nuke, they are in a perfect position, between S. Korea, China and Japan, to blackmail the entire planet. And its not an empty threat with them, I reckon.

 

Very disappointing in a time where both N. Korea and Iran are galloping towards nuke development, that we have such a weak inept US President in the Whitehouse, who has completely ignored the lessons of history that appeasement or containment doesnt work.

 

You're right. We shouldve nuked Russia, China and Cuba off the face of the planet.

[jjsaint]

If they can weaponise a nuke, they are in a perfect position, between S. Korea, China and Japan, to blackmail the entire planet. And its not an empty threat with them, I reckon.

 

Very disappointing in a time where both N. Korea and Iran are galloping towards nuke development, that we have such a weak inept US President in the Whitehouse, who has completely ignored the lessons of history that appeasement or containment doesnt work.

 

Not sure what we can do about it though. After Afghanistan and Iraq, the US and UK public are tired of war.

[eurosaint]

Nutters?

 

Read the book 'Escape from Camp 14' for confirmation !

[This Charming Man]

Ah yes because George Bush's tactics worked perfectly.

 

At least there are actually WMD's this time around.

[This Charming Man]

Read the book 'Escape from Camp 14' for confirmation !

 

Just looked it up on Amazon, looks a brilliant read. That's getting downloaded this evening.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Not sure what we can do about it though. After Afghanistan and Iraq, the US and UK public are tired of war.

 

Indeed we are.

 

A defensive, rather than offensive, response to this very worrying situation would seem to be in order. Rather than launching a preemptive strike against N Korea with the aim of destroying its nascent Nuclear capability - a move that would almost certainly lead to war on the Korean Peninsula - this state should be surrounded by a 'ring fence' of Anti Ballistic Missile (ABM) systems.

 

This is both a risky and a expensive proposal of course. But no more risky, and a hell of a lot less expensive, than war is methinks.

[aintforever]

The Yanks do a massive military exercise in the region and no one says a thing, yet the North Koreans test one bomb and suddenly it's offensive?

 

They have every right to defend themselves, just like Iran.

[Thedelldays]

The Yanks do a massive military exercise in the region and no one says a thing, yet the North Koreans test one bomb and suddenly it's offensive?

 

They have every right to defend themselves, just like Iran.

 

I think any nation in the world that lets off a nuclear explosion is worth a worry

[aintforever]

I think any nation in the world that lets off a nuclear explosion is worth a worry

 

The US has tested plenty of nukes in the past.

[Thedelldays]

The US has tested plenty of nukes in the past.

 

Yes. Germany also slaughtered many millions

 

Wrongs in the past should not make things right today

 

I would suggest that any nation letting off the bomb this day and age is worth a worry... A nation like North Korea doing it is f-ing scary for that region

[aintforever]

Yes. Germany also slaughtered many millions

 

Wrongs in the past should not make things right today

 

I would suggest that any nation letting off the bomb this day and age is worth a worry... A nation like North Korea doing it is f-ing scary for that region

 

I don't see what their motivation for using it would be. Just like Iran, if they use it they know they will be wiped of the face of the planet so what is the point.

 

From their point of view it is probably essential to warn off aggressors like the USA.

[Thedelldays]

I don't see what their motivation for using it would be. Just like Iran, if they use it they know they will be wiped of the face of the planet so what is the point.

 

From their point of view it is probably essential to warn off aggressors like the USA.

 

Having nuclear weapons brings you a hell of a lot of influence... Simple as that really.

 

No matter how you slice it, it seems to be a fact.

[hypochondriac]

The Yanks do a massive military exercise in the region and no one says a thing, yet the North Koreans test one bomb and suddenly it's offensive?

 

They have every right to defend themselves, just like Iran.

 

Yes but it isn't just about defence is it. Besides, looking at their human rights abuses anyone would be worried. The US may not be great but they don't have hundreds of thousands of their own people locked in labour camps.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The Yanks do a massive military exercise in the region and no one says a thing, yet the North Koreans test one bomb and suddenly it's offensive?

 

They have every right to defend themselves, just like Iran.

 

Well I would hope that everyone could agree that Nuclear proliferation is a very bad thing, especially when these weapons are in the hands of unstable states. But you do have a point, how can we criticize the likes of N Korea and Iran while at the very same time pressing ahead with our own Trident replacement programme?

 

A case of 'Do as we say rather than do as we do' I suppose.

[capitalsaint]

Well I would hope that everyone could agree that Nuclear proliferation is a very bad thing, especially when these weapons are in the hands of unstable states. But you do have a point, how can we criticize the likes of N Korea and Iran while at the very same time pressing ahead with our own Trident replacement programme?

 

A case of 'Do as we say rather than do as we do' I suppose.

 

Exactly. The American military presence in SK is provocative in itself.

 

Funny though, there seems to be far more fear over North Korea in Britain and America than there is in South Korea.

[Thedelldays]

Exactly. The American military presence in SK is provocative in itself.

 

Funny though, there seems to be far more fear over North Korea in Britain and America than there is in South Korea.

 

You could argue that the US is the only thing preventing the ongoing war from continuing

 

As for fear. When did you get back from South Korea ???

[capitalsaint]

There's no appetite for war. The younger generations have only experienced the modern South Korea and think of the North as a poor, uneducated and perhaps inferior nation. They clearly accept that they are all one people so there's absolutely no desire to fight them. The SK military service, for example, only teaches you to sweep snow and mow the lawn for two years. I'm a better shot than one friend and he was in the special forces!

 

Not back yet, I live in Seoul!

[Thedelldays]

So how do you know there is more fear in this country

 

Not met anyone that bothered, let alone scared about their nuclear test?

[hypochondriac]

So how do you know there is more fear in this country

 

Not met anyone that bothered, let alone scared about their nuclear test?

 

Not scared but some people are concerned. They are so unstable you never know what they are going to do.

[Thedelldays]

Not scared but some people are concerned. They are so unstable you never know what they are going to do.

 

Just for info

 

Their previous missile that had been tested could reach anywhere in the UK

 

Their new one will probably be able to reach anywhere on earth that is populated

[hypochondriac]

Just for info

 

Their previous missile that had been tested could reach anywhere in the UK

 

Their new one will probably be able to reach anywhere on earth that is populated

 

Well there you go then people have a right to expect a strong response. I know a British diplomat in South Korea and he is very concerned about it for the last couple of years.

[Window Cleaner]

Just for info

 

Their previous missile that had been tested could reach anywhere in the UK

 

Their new one will probably be able to reach anywhere on earth that is populated

 

 

And all of them can be destroyed in a nano-second. Thought you'd know that DD.

[Polaroid Saint]

The US may not be great but they don't have hundreds of thousands of their own people locked in labour camps.

 

Really?

That is exactly what I thought the US does have!?

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

[Thedelldays]

Really?

That is exactly what I thought the US does have!?

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

 

If you think that is anything like what you read about North Korea labour camps, then good for you

[hypochondriac]

Really?

That is exactly what I thought the US does have!?

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

 

I suggest you have a read of some books on North Korean Labour camps and then get back to me.

[Polaroid Saint]

Hey, I wasn't saying US's labour camps were any WORSE than DPR's, but they DO exist (and contain a higher proportion of the country's 'incarcerated labour' than the North Korean, FWI).

 

That was the only point I was making. Prison/labour camp; it's all semantics if the legitimacy of ones incarceration is in question, surely?

 

I used a cheap n quick wiki link as I didn't feel the need to push it any further as the information regarding the immoral and illegal aspects of the US penal system are easy to find both online and, yes, in books as well.

[hypochondriac]

Well ok then just be clear I will change my original statement to the us may be bad but they aren't anywhere near as awful at north Korea and the conditions in their labour camps.

[capitalsaint]

So how do you know there is more fear in this country

 

Not met anyone that bothered, let alone scared about their nuclear test?

 

Well, there's a post on a football forum asking if NK are nutters and there are news reports about anything they do (ignore any articles about them in the Telegraph btw, they just copy AP verbatim, often out of date).

 

I'm also back and forth a fair amount, so I still have some understanding of the British psyche.

[Thedelldays]

Well, there's a post on a football forum asking if NK are nutters and there are news reports about anything they do (ignore any articles about them in the Telegraph btw, they just copy AP verbatim, often out of date).I'm also back and forth a fair amount, so I still have some understanding of the British psyche.

there is no one afraid.....I also think Artur Boruc is a nutter (of a different kind)...but I am not afraid of him either

[Saint Billy]

I'm afraid of mankind in general, since the day dot man has only ever been interested in killing anything that lives including himself.

[capitalsaint]

there is no one afraid.....I also think Artur Boruc is a nutter (of a different kind)...but I am not afraid of him either

 

I said there is more fear in the UK than in SK, not that everyone in the UK is scared. Perhaps with your naval background it isn't the same for you, but plenty of Brits I speak to display more concern that I live close to the North than anybody here.

 

I bet if Boruc accosted you in a dark alley you'd quake in your boots

[Polaroid Saint]

Cheers Hypo, that's more like it...

...Seriously though, I feel it is an interesting parallel to draw; both countries' nuclear capabilities and treatment of citizens.

 

Do I think North Korea should implement systemic imprisonment and supression of its own people? No of course not. Do I think the USA should either? No, no I don't.

 

Do I think North Korea should have The Bomb? No, of course not. Do I think the USA should have The Bomb? No, no I don't either.

 

I believe in complete nuclear disarmament without prejudice. I believe in freedom of action, movement, speech and ownership. I believe that a bully should never be allowed to win - be they the little g!t with the sh!tty stick or the biggest bully with the thickest fists.

[eurosaint]

Just looked it up on Amazon, looks a brilliant read. That's getting downloaded this evening.

 

I've always had a morbid fascination with NK and have read many books about the place !

Almost went there once, had the trip to Pyongyang all set up only for them to refuse the visa at the last minute for no reason !

'Nothing to Envy' is also a good read if you get into the subject !

[Thedelldays]

I have read the camp 14 book

 

Amazing how this still goes on in the world

[This Charming Man]

I've always had a morbid fascination with NK and have read many books about the place !

Almost went there once, had the trip to Pyongyang all set up only for them to refuse the visa at the last minute for no reason !

'Nothing to Envy' is also a good read if you get into the subject !

 

I'm in China at the summer and eyed up one of the trips to NK but decided against it. I'd only be going for the novelty factor - there's nothing there to see, well nothing interesting they'd let you see and generally seemed more hassle than it was worth.

[This Charming Man]

Exactly. The American military presence in SK is provocative in itself.

 

Funny though, there seems to be far more fear over North Korea in Britain and America than there is in South Korea.

 

I don't recall seeing any anti NK protests on the streets of London or Washington like Seoul. I could be wrong though.

 

Also, SK and Japan both seem rather worried at a political level as well. I'd also be rather surprised if it wasn't major news that dominated every news outlet in SK.

[aintforever]

Yes but it isn't just about defence is it. Besides, looking at their human rights abuses anyone would be worried. The US may not be great but they don't have hundreds of thousands of their own people locked in labour camps.

 

But don't the US execute more people than any other country? They also kill thousands and invade countries for oil and bankroll countries with bad human rights records.

 

Korea and Iran will be much safer from a US threat if they have a nuclear deterrent.

[Barry Sanchez]

But don't the US execute more people than any other country? They also kill thousands and invade countries for oil and bankroll countries with bad human rights records.

 

Korea and Iran will be much safer from a US threat if they have a nuclear deterrent.

 

Because I suspect they declare deaths, not too sure how many China report, nor Russia, nor Iraq, nor Iran, nor Saudi, nor North Korea, nor Congo, nor Somalia, nor Tibet, nor Uganda, nor Sudan, nor Burma, nor Syria actually report to be fair.

[capitalsaint]

I don't recall seeing any anti NK protests on the streets of London or Washington like Seoul. I could be wrong though.

 

Also, SK and Japan both seem rather worried at a political level as well. I'd also be rather surprised if it wasn't major news that dominated every news outlet in SK.

 

But you very rarely see any sort of protest on the streets of London or Washington. Here you can go to the City Hall area any day of the week and see a protest, it's part of the democratic process here.

 

Re the political level, neither candidate for the recent elections used NK as much of a platform and much like the UK the whole focus was on the economy. Clearly on a political level they may be worried, but they haven't had to play off of the public's fear for around 10 years now. Not that the political level is a particularly good gauge, weren't Blair and Bush worried about Saddam?

[eurosaint]

But don't the US execute more people than any other country? They also kill thousands and invade countries for oil and bankroll countries with bad human rights records.

 

Korea and Iran will be much safer from a US threat if they have a nuclear deterrent.

 

TBF you don't have to use executions quite so freely when you starve your people to death as a matter of routine !

[Saint86]

Yes but it isn't just about defence is it. Besides, looking at their human rights abuses anyone would be worried. The US may not be great but they don't have hundreds of thousands of their own people locked in labour camps.

 

I would disagree with that to be honest.

[Window Cleaner]

But don't the US execute more people than any other country? They also kill thousands and invade countries for oil and bankroll countries with bad human rights records.

 

Korea and Iran will be much safer from a US threat if they have a nuclear deterrent.

 

not with the type of device that they as yet have the ability to produce nor the delivery systems available to them.

In fact whilst not being a veritable expert on the subject I'd think many of the 3rd generation enhanced thermobarics, which are more widespread than you'd think, would have a greater effect in a densely populated zone than the very small type of nuclear device tested in NK recently.

[hypochondriac]

I would disagree with that to be honest.

 

We've already been through this. See above.

[PhilippineSaint]

Yes but it isn't just about defence is it. Besides, looking at their human rights abuses anyone would be worried. The US may not be great but they don't have hundreds of thousands of their own people locked in labour camps.

 

They do have one of the highest prison populations in the world though making mailbags and car number plates