Cork - Schneiderlin partnership, changed under Pocchetino?

[Neef]

Hey guys, as the title says, what do you reckon? I think so, did you see how high up the pitch Schneid was pressing against Wigan, almost led to that freak goal. Interesting to see how it develops; Cork is the deepest of the two from what Ive seen but at times they both pushed on. Which is great if we win the ball back but against United, at times Carrick etc had the quality to find the pass even under pressure and both were bypassed. As big a fan as I am of Ward-Prowse, Im not sure where he is fitting in this season as Davis has made a great impact of the bench.

 

Tactically I think they are joy for any manager, both seem so versatile, both were bargains as well. With the lack of central midfielders for England and the current state of the French national team, then surely a national call up is not too far away??

 

I honestly think they are both superb but for some reason don't get that much recognition from non-saints fans. Also blogged about them both if any of you are interested: http://wp.me/p2RtpI-33 - Kind of hard to fully get my point across on here.

[JackanorySFC]

Hey guys, as the title says, what do you reckon? I think so, did you see how high up the pitch Schneid was pressing against Wigan, almost led to that freak goal. Interesting to see how it develops; Cork is the deepest of the two from what Ive seen but at times they both pushed on. Which is great if we win the ball back but against United, at times Carrick etc had the quality to find the pass even under pressure and both were bypassed. As big a fan as I am of Ward-Prowse, Im not sure where he is fitting in this season as Davis has made a great impact of the bench.

 

Tactically I think they are joy for any manager, both seem so versatile, both were bargains as well. With the lack of central midfielders for England and the current state of the French national team, then surely a national call up is not too far away??

 

I honestly think they are both superb but for some reason don't get that much recognition from non-saints fans. Also blogged about them both if any of you are interested: http://wp.me/p2RtpI-33 - Kind of hard to fully get my point across on here.

 

Credit where it's due fella, excellent blog that. You're right, not massive exposure for the pair of them yet, but with the modern manager's obsession with Pro Zone, Morgan especially will be on a lot of clubs radars in the summer. Both seem happy here though, as you mention in the article they could/ should be the bedrock of this side for the next 5+ years

[Andre]

Both great players. Played well under Adkins, playing well under MP. Keep it up, boys.

[The9]

I don't think anything much is different at the moment, we've always had some spells of pressing high up the pitch, and the MotD thing the other day about how we were "suddenly" getting players forward in numbers is utterly laughable as a "new development" when the same thing was raised following the Man City away match in the first game of the season.

 

If anything's different under Pochettino it's the use of Davis instead of Ramirez to support pressing - which was arguably due to injury on Saturday, plus Adkins did that second half at QPR as well.

 

So far we're seeing a very gradual shift, and it's gradual because one of the reasons Cortese put Pochettino in to begin with was his adherence to the system we already used.

[Saint86]

Hey guys, as the title says, what do you reckon? I think so, did you see how high up the pitch Schneid was pressing against Wigan, almost led to that freak goal. Interesting to see how it develops; Cork is the deepest of the two from what Ive seen but at times they both pushed on. Which is great if we win the ball back but against United, at times Carrick etc had the quality to find the pass even under pressure and both were bypassed. As big a fan as I am of Ward-Prowse, Im not sure where he is fitting in this season as Davis has made a great impact of the bench.

 

Tactically I think they are joy for any manager, both seem so versatile, both were bargains as well. With the lack of central midfielders for England and the current state of the French national team, then surely a national call up is not too far away??

 

I honestly think they are both superb but for some reason don't get that much recognition from non-saints fans. Also blogged about them both if any of you are interested: http://wp.me/p2RtpI-33 - Kind of hard to fully get my point across on here.

 

Watch the highlights of Chelsea away. Although these guys are playing well, it is not down to the Military Police. They (especially Morgan) were allover the pitch at stamford bridge and even in earlier games.

[Tokyo-Saint]

The are playing wider. They seem to move the the wings/full back position more to cover the (real) full backs as the are bombing on more and playing like wingers when we attack.

[Neef]

Credit where it's due fella, excellent blog that. You're right, not massive exposure for the pair of them yet, but with the modern manager's obsession with Pro Zone, Morgan especially will be on a lot of clubs radars in the summer. Both seem happy here though, as you mention in the article they could/ should be the bedrock of this side for the next 5+ years

 

Thanks, glad you liked it. Hope we can keep this group together, the future looks very promising indeed.

[Neef]

Watch the highlights of Chelsea away. Although these guys are playing well, it is not down to the Military Police. They (especially Morgan) were allover the pitch at stamford bridge and even in earlier games.

 

I was going to mention the Chelsea game but that was a midfield trio. I watched the Reading game over and we pressed in spells but nothing as aggressive that weve seen as of late. In my opinion, Adkins preferred to keep structure but Pochettino doesn't mind breaking that as soon as weve lost the ball.

[The9]

Having said all that, that is an EXCELLENT tactical blog illustrating the nuances of their roles (very reminiscent of Zonal Marking in formatting too), and I'm more than happy to link it again here for the terminally lazy : http://wp.me/p2RtpI-33

[SaintSteve]

Yes, there is already an increased pressure further up the pitch, especially from Cork/Schneiderlin, and we are hunting in packs to retrieve the ball.. as per a lot of Spanish teams.

I thought Cork was MOTM saturday, with Schneiderlin just behind.

[Saint Garrett]

I was going to mention the Chelsea game but that was a midfield trio. I watched the Reading game over and we pressed in spells but nothing as aggressive that weve seen as of late. In my opinion, Adkins preferred to keep structure but Pochettino doesn't mind breaking that as soon as weve lost the ball.

 

I don't think there is any doubt that we have changed the way we play - we're giving the other side no time on the ball whatsoever, but that can mean that good passers of the ball will find a way through if one person isn't doing their job. Not noticed much difference with the CM's tbh, they both play deep, and then both contribute forward as well.

 

I'd say Morgan just sat in front of the back four keeping the ball ticking over under Adkins whereas he's got a bit more feeedom under MP. Be interesting when we play against a side with real ariel threat up front as I can see the defence quite happy to just boot it then the pressing becomes pointless as it will just leave a big gap between defence and midfield.....we'll se..

[The9]

Yes, there is already an increased pressure further up the pitch, especially from Cork/Schneiderlin, and we are hunting in packs to retrieve the ball.. as per a lot of Spanish teams.

I thought Cork was MOTM saturday, with Schneiderlin just behind.

 

I noticed Wigan were going at us with 5 or 6 players in the first half, Martinez being Spanish as well of course. FWIW I thought they were much more effective at it that we were, it wasn't until the tempo dropped a bit (or maybe when we brought Davis on as a third presser as opposed to Ramirez's more flair qualities) that we got on top. Cork and Schneiderlin have been superb at play-breaking match in match out, Liverpool away is the only time I've seen them clearly second best in the middle.

[The9]

I'd say Morgan just sat in front of the back four keeping the ball ticking over under Adkins whereas he's got a bit more feeedom under MP. Be interesting when we play against a side with real ariel threat up front as I can see the defence quite happy to just boot it then the pressing becomes pointless as it will just leave a big gap between defence and midfield.....we'll se..

 

Last season and before that, yes, but he's been quite advanced a fair few times this season under Adkins too. Cork's absence necessitated him being deeper early in the season of course.

[Chez]

at Wigan it was a Barcelona-style-full-court-press. Both strikers pushed right up, centre midfielder pushed right up on their deep lying CM and our left and right midfielders pushing right up onto their fullbacks all the time. It worked a treat. Wigan played through us once and boy did they have to work to even do that. The rest of the time they gave the ball away or hoofed it long.

 

This tactic should be used nearly all the time. The Premiership simply does not have all that many teams with the players good enough to play through it. Yes some will go long and may proposer, but by and large most teams want to pass it out from the back, so lets get at them as they aren't good enough to do it.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

There has been very little change in their responsibilities - the team as a whole has shifted a further 15-20 yards up the pitch so the work they do is just done in a different area of the park. One consequence of this (and their very competent ability at winning the ball back) is that their cuteness in the final third must improve. Both are lacking outside the safe pass and given they will be winning the ball back in far more dangerous areas under Pochettino I would like to see them make better decisions in the final third. I don't want them to force anything but we cannot afford to win the ball back and slow the passage of play down and give the opponents a chance to regroup - we lose the momentum and point of the tactic and high pressing then.

 

That isn't a scathing criticism at all, but it is something for them to develop. I am very pleased with their partnership and I also like Davis in front of them as the second line of pressing as I do rate his ability with the ball in the final third - it is a bit more probing.

[pingwing]

A very nice blog there! Very much agree on the assessment of how our midfield pairing works.

 

It reflects a very modern attitude to midfielders, that they have quite a few things to do but should do them all well. As a pairing there isn't better in the premier league considering the work load they have between them, no other team has a pair of midfielders that can swap roles so effectively between them in the way Cork and Schneiderlin do, especially given the amount of cover the provide to attacking players, once Shaw and Clyne are forward they are covering their channels as well as potentially expanding into space created by attacking runners.

 

As a foundation for play it should serve us very well.

[saintbob40]

They were the better central pairing against Everton, Man U and Wigan. That says probably as much as you need to know. Cork is probably a bit more brain and Morgan a bit more brawn but they complement each other very well and this system suits them. Lets get them tied down on long contracts.

[saints-cris]

OP - Great blog.

[terrypward]

I commented against Man Utd that it was noticeable that Cork was passing the ball forwards more readily than he was under Adkins and this helped us to keep the pressure on them... not that there was much wrong with how he was playing before mind.

[tajjuk]

Very good blog.

[saintbob40]

Are you Nevlile in disguise !! Very ,very good blog from someone who actually understands the game and the highly technical role played by these two players and its importance to the team.

[melmacian_saint]

SchneiderCork now at least in the top 5 central midfield combinations in the Prem IMO.

[Saint Martini]

I noticed the same thing in the last few matches that even when we don't have the ball one of Cork and Schneiderlin pushes up to disrupt the build-up of the opposition and perhaps start a counter. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens as a result. It can lead to more goals being scored on both in both our and the opposition goal.

[pingwing]

SchneiderCork now at least in the top 5 central midfield combinations in the Prem IMO.

 

Odd one but who as a pair is better? I can't think of a pair of players who can both tackle and pass as well as ours...

[Saint Garrett]

Mulumbu and Yacob were awesome at the start of the season, but have dropped standards a bit recently.

[Baldbarbarian]

hats off to you for that blog, very informative read. I liked the graphics in there to back up the statements too

[Saint_Randell]

SchneiderCork now at least in the top 5 central midfield combinations in the Prem IMO.

 

I got slated for saying this the other day. The people I was arguing with all said Cleverly and Carrick, Wilshire Arteta, Lampard Ramires, Noble Diame, Dembele Sandro, De guzman Britton, Gerrard Lucas, Fellaini and Osman (both don't play they but they didn't care) were all better.

 

Tbh I would only take a few of those pairs over ours, good players they may be but do they work as well together and fit the system as well as ours?

[CanadaSaint]

Great discussion.

 

I'm really enjoying how we're playing, despite the troubling inability to convert dominance into wins. I hope we stick with it, which I'm sure we will.

 

The two angles that trouble me, though, are whether Ramirez can fit within and contribute to this style of game, and the attrition rate that we might encounter.

 

Ramirez might not be suited to high-pressing but he could still contribute with some "killer passes" in the late stages of attacks, and some quick and accurate shooting from the edge of the box. Neither is happening right now but if that starts the draws will become wins.

 

The attrition will come through the sheer physical demands of playing like this and through the yellow cards that this style can produce. Cork and Schneiderlin are super-fit and can sustain it over 90 minutes, but we'll see whether they can sustain it over the rest of the season. Schneiderlin, in particular, must continue to improve his decision-making when it comes to when to "hold" and when to tackle; although he's improved, he has a habit of picking up rather needless yellow cards, and he's a player we can't afford to lose for even one game.

[Charlie Wayman]

Morgan most successful tackles to win the ball back in the PL this season, say no more... worth £15m now?

[Window Cleaner]

. worth £15m now?

 

Probably not with just a year and a bit left on his contract no. Will eventually replace Carrick at Utd but I don't know when.

[Saint Charlie]

Second half vs wigan we played a kind of 4-1-2-3 which was very effective!

[Toadhall Saint]

Excellent blog about an excellent partnership and one that will improve.

[captainchris]

Yes, there is already an increased pressure further up the pitch, especially from Cork/Schneiderlin, and we are hunting in packs to retrieve the ball.. as per a lot of Spanish teams.

I thought Cork was MOTM saturday, with Schneiderlin just behind.

So glad too see someone has noticed that the SPanish teams hunt in packs. That is the bedrock of Barcelona these days it's not just the sweet quick passing its tightly surrounding the player on the ball with usually three players.... This is what dear mr Fox doesn't understand he doesn't close down anyone!

[The9]

at Wigan it was a Barcelona-style-full-court-press. Both strikers pushed right up, centre midfielder pushed right up on their deep lying CM and our left and right midfielders pushing right up onto their fullbacks all the time. It worked a treat. Wigan played through us once and boy did they have to work to even do that. The rest of the time they gave the ball away or hoofed it long.

 

This tactic should be used nearly all the time. The Premiership simply does not have all that many teams with the players good enough to play through it. Yes some will go long and may proposer, but by and large most teams want to pass it out from the back, so lets get at them as they aren't good enough to do it.

 

I seriously doubt ANY team with Lambert in it could operate a practical pressing game, you'd only ever have to pass the ball to the bloke nearest him.

 

And what's this "both strikers" nonsense ? We play 4-2-3-1.

[The9]

Second half vs wigan we played a kind of 4-1-2-3 which was very effective!

 

That'll be Pochettino sacked then.

[The9]

Mulumbu and Yacob were awesome at the start of the season, but have dropped standards a bit recently.

 

They haven't played together since 1st December, which might be a factor... Mulumbu's been at the African Cup of Nations since the start of the year and Yacob had a 6 week hamstring injury which he's only just returned from. Significant effect on their results too :

 

Matches with Y Mulumbu and C Yacob

W7 D2 L4

 

As a %:

54-15-31

 

Matches without Y Mulumbu and C Yacob

W4 D3 L9

 

As a %:

25-19-56

[Wildgoose]

Best thread on here for ages. :0) Good stuff. Thoughtful, insightful and stimulating. Thanks guys!

[sandwichsaint]

Loving this thread, the number of people on here that six months ago thought Cork wasn't up to it. Reckon 50% of posters on here were agitating for new or better players at the start of the season. 'Cork, one of those players that gets better and better the more he doesn't play', absolutely typical comment from the first month of the season and there were loads more where that came from.

[110_Persaint]

Both are mediocre/average in their attacking side IMO. Should stick to being in front of the back four at all times, leaving our front four to do the damage up the pitch.

 

Having said that Morgan is arguably the best ball-winner in the prem, and Cork's pass success rate must surely be in the late 80's - early 90's???

[Lazlo78]

Hey guys, as the title says, what do you reckon? I think so, did you see how high up the pitch Schneid was pressing against Wigan, almost led to that freak goal. Interesting to see how it develops; Cork is the deepest of the two from what Ive seen but at times they both pushed on. Which is great if we win the ball back but against United, at times Carrick etc had the quality to find the pass even under pressure and both were bypassed. As big a fan as I am of Ward-Prowse, Im not sure where he is fitting in this season as Davis has made a great impact of the bench.

 

Tactically I think they are joy for any manager, both seem so versatile, both were bargains as well. With the lack of central midfielders for England and the current state of the French national team, then surely a national call up is not too far away??

 

I honestly think they are both superb but for some reason don't get that much recognition from non-saints fans. Also blogged about them both if any of you are interested: http://wp.me/p2RtpI-33 - Kind of hard to fully get my point across on here.

 

Great blog, Neef!

 

To me the defensive midfielder is one of the most difficult positions to rate if you are just watching the game instead of specifically looking at what he is doing. Nice to see that you bring some observations to the table.

 

Would have loved to hear you input to my question in the Sunderland match reaction thread: http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?41925-Saints-0-Sunderland-1-Post-Match-Reactions&p=1561942#post1561942. Back then, I assumed that we just wouldn't get too detailed tacical discussions on here, but several people have participated in this excellent thread.

 

PS. We conceded 14 in the first 4 games, not 12...

[Sour Mash]

I seriously doubt ANY team with Lambert in it could operate a practical pressing game, you'd only ever have to pass the ball to the bloke nearest him.

 

And what's this "both strikers" nonsense ? We play 4-2-3-1.

But we did operate a practical pressing game didn't we?

[CWD]

I actually think Cork can feel more hard done by than Lambert at not getting an England call up. Lambert is too old IMO, even though I do believe he's good enough. But if you look at the ages of the CMs in the squad at the mo, the likes of Gerrard and Lampard really only have one more big tournament left in them. Cork doing the dirty work alongside a more creative player like Wilshere or Cleverley could be a pretty potent partnership.

 

Schniederlin is just class. Best player at the club, and Player of the Season so far for me.

[Maggie May]

Good blog, but it has been called the Premier League for a fair few years now.

[Doctoroncall]

There has been very little change in their responsibilities - the team as a whole has shifted a further 15-20 yards up the pitch so the work they do is just done in a different area of the park. One consequence of this (and their very competent ability at winning the ball back) is that their cuteness in the final third must improve. Both are lacking outside the safe pass and given they will be winning the ball back in far more dangerous areas under Pochettino I would like to see them make better decisions in the final third. I don't want them to force anything but we cannot afford to win the ball back and slow the passage of play down and give the opponents a chance to regroup - we lose the momentum and point of the tactic and high pressing then.

 

That isn't a scathing criticism at all, but it is something for them to develop. I am very pleased with their partnership and I also like Davis in front of them as the second line of pressing as I do rate his ability with the ball in the final third - it is a bit more probing.

 

Agree with that, some of the decision making when we have the ball in the final third has been poor - either keeping the ball for a second too long or the team are static and there are no runners to either make space for a pass or receive it. Hopefully over time with more confidence and insight from MP they'll start using the ball better. One thing that Ramirez does bring to our game is some of that ability, for instance where Lambert went wide and Ramirez run into the space for that great chance.

[david in sweden]

if we are looking at a 4-2-3-1 formation, then Cork is a better defender (and yet to score a goal), whereas Schneiderlin looks more aggressive playing further up, and getting more goal chances than he ever had before.