Is Cortese's top four ambition obtainable?

[Barry Sanchez]

You said that we have never been successful. You're plainly wrong. As usual.

 

When were we successful?

[Barry Sanchez]

Liverpool???

 

Liverpool are huge, and put it this way if we are in the ascendency and they are on the downward slide and still can sign players we want where does that leave us?

[Wes Tender]

No they wouldn't, they are now one of the top earning clubs in the world (6th highest on revenue). They sell more shirts than Liverpool, Bayern Munich and AC Milan, Arsenal, Junventus and Inter.

 

Man City are already 12th on Revenue.

 

Both clubs are established enough now that they would still be big european clubs without the backiing.

 

 

The sale of shirts is purely because they are a glory club followed by plastics around the World, most of whom will never see a match at Chelsea. Most of the shirts they wear are fakes. If Abramovic pulls out and nobody as wealthy comes in to take over, they will begin a gradual decline and gradually the plastic glory hunters will desert them.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

If we stay up this season, which I feel we are fairly likely to do then I reckon this is a reasonable scenario:

 

Couple of seasons comfortable midtable consolidation (9th-13th place finishes, safe of relegation well before Easter etc), blooding a few youth talents in the first team gradually with the odd marquee signing in the transfer windows focusing on improvements on our existing squad. No cup runs, unless we have a ridiculously favourable draw. Cortese seems to dislike cups, I seem to remember reports of him bollocking Pardew for focusing on the JPT rather than the league?

 

From there it would be a case of qualifying for the Europa League, putting in a decent effort, but still focusing mainly on the league. Through group stage, out at quarters tops.

 

From there, the next project would begin...

 

That is in my opinion, the peak of our reasonable expectations for the next period, and could well be in the project that Pochettino has been brought in to oversee. It assumes no or few injuries to key players, and that we keep hold of our key performers...no heads being turned by promises of money and silverware etc etc.

 

There is no way we will be qualifying for the Champions League anytime soon without, as numerous people have said, a ridiculous amount of cash being flung at us.

 

At least now, with us A) Being in the Prem & B) Being on a much more sound financial footing, we are likely to receive some hefty fees for clubs looking to sign our players.

 

If we got £15m for Oxo who had only played 2/3s of a season in L1, imagine what Cortese would likely demand for (just an example here) Luke Shaw?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it were more like £25m. Which, whilst it being a great loss, would certainly help improvement in other areas of the squad. especially seeing as now when we get fees, they aren't going to immediately disappear on trying desperately to keep the club afloat.

[tajjuk]

We aren't going to do a City or Chelsea, a 'Ramirez' is one thing but it's not a Torres, Robinho, Aguero, Toure, etc etc. that have come into Chelsea.

 

Nor do we want to do a Chelsea, like Wes above says for all their spending the core of their succesful teams in recent years have been built on John Terry (youth product) Peter Cech (£7 million), Ashley Cole (£5 million + william gallas), Frank Lampard (£11 million pre-abramovich singing). They have made some horrific mistakes in the transfer market, I read that their spending on Strikers has reached £180 million alone, with only really Drogba being successful. Man City have had Jo (£18 million), Robinho (£32 million), Balotelli (£25 million), Santa Cruz (£17 million), Adebayor (£25 million), Bridge (£12 million) amogst their expensive flops in just a few years.

 

Like I said I look to Spurs, yes a historically a bigger club than us but, mainly a mid table club throughout the 90's, a 2001 takeoever (with Billionaire backer) has seen sensible spending mainly on young promising players, decent control of wages, investment in infrastructure, paying attractive football. They have gradually built the club to one that has in recent years challenged the top 4, all with a 35k average attendance. They still loose players to bigger clubs (modric) but get decent fees and re-invest.

 

 

Liverpool are huge, and put it this way if we are in the ascendency and they are on the downward slide and still can sign players we want where does that leave us?

 

Liverpool were huge and they have been in decline for years. Nothing obvious coming from Anfield suggests this will change and the fact that players are even considering a newly promoted club like us at the same time as Liverpool proves the decline. There is only so long they can rely on what they did in the 80's. They'll most likely loose Suarez this summer, their only world class player as well he's the only thing making them top 8.

 

The sale of shirts is purely because they are a glory club followed by plastics around the World, most of whom will never see a match at Chelsea. Most of the shirts they wear are fakes. If Abramovic pulls out and nobody as wealthy comes in to take over, they will begin a gradual decline and gradually the plastic glory hunters will desert them.

 

Same for most liveprool fans, they have won f*ck all for ages, lucky 2005 chmps league aside. Since then mid table.

 

Plus like I said 7th highest earning in the world. If Abramovich leaves there will be plenty of takers. Look at them in 2003, about to go bankrupt, but Champions league football and they got one of the world's richest men to takeover.

Edited 29 January, 2013 by tajjuk

[Wes Tender]

When were we successful?

 

I've already told you. So was coming second behnd Liverpool in their pomp and ahead of United, Arsenal, etc in 83/84 not deemed to be a success by you?

 

What's the point in getting into the top four if people like you wouldn't consider it a success? Imbecile.

[The Kraken]

I think we can be the biggest club in the world within 3 seasons. Four at most. They said man would never climb Everest, and that man couldn't walk on the moon. So WTFILN at those preposterous statements. This is our time. Forget that we're a global minnow and have to usurp other clubs with vast resources much in excess of where we'll ever be. Forget that other clubs have a rich history of the last 50 years which has earned them their global support. Irrelevant, especially when we move to a 45K stadium (even if we can't fill it).

 

Bring it on, I can't wait. What an epic journey, League 1 to Champions League in half a decade. Nik Nak

[Barry Sanchez]

The sale of shirts is purely because they are a glory club followed by plastics around the World, most of whom will never see a match at Chelsea. Most of the shirts they wear are fakes. If Abramovic pulls out and nobody as wealthy comes in to take over, they will begin a gradual decline and gradually the plastic glory hunters will desert them.

 

They still are the 5th most supported club through the turnstyles in England,

Manchester United

Liverpool

Arsenal

Newcastle (could be wrong on this)

Chelsea

[Thedelldays]

I've already told you. So was coming second behnd Liverpool in their pomp and ahead of United, Arsenal, etc in 83/84 not deemed to be a success by you?

 

What's the point in getting into the top four if people like you wouldn't consider it a success? Imbecile.

it is for a team that has only ever won 1 FA Cup and 1 FA Trophy EVER

[Barry Sanchez]

I've already told you. So was coming second behnd Liverpool in their pomp and ahead of United, Arsenal, etc in 83/84 not deemed to be a success by you?

 

What's the point in getting into the top four if people like you wouldn't consider it a success? Imbecile.

 

NO thats not success Wes thats coming second, when were we successful, where is goden period? It never happened and just get over it and it never happened, makes no difference to me, but finishing 2nd one year in a different era of the game does not constitute success Wes, blue nun and being aged does not mix.........................

[Barry Sanchez]

I think we can be the biggest club in the world within 3 seasons. Four at most. They said man would never climb Everest, and that man couldn't walk on the moon. So WTFILN at those preposterous statements. This is our time. Forget that we're a global minnow and have to usurp other clubs with vast resources much in excess of where we'll ever be. Forget that other clubs have a rich history of the last 50 years which has earned them their global support. Irrelevant, especially when we move to a 45K stadium (even if we can't fill it).

 

Bring it on, I can't wait. What an epic journey, League 1 to Champions League in half a decade. Nik Nak

 

I agree, just sniffed a pot of glue and I am know with you, World dominance alongside Cortese (and Wes) in 3.23432 years.

[CanadaSaint]

Four reasons why I'm a little more open-minded about what seems like an unachievable goal:

 

1) We have absolutely no idea how much funding is actually available to us for team and infrastructure development.

 

2) We're assuming that we have to match demented spendthrifts in order to reach those levels, but financial fair play/equalization arrangements could change that - potentially significantly. That is exactly what has happened in several North American sports.

 

3) If the idea of us being a top six club is laughable, I would argue that the notion that Swansea and West Brom would challenge for a place in Europe was equally so - for most of the same reasons. They are out-competing teams that spend more and draw more, and that has always been a feature of football. And they are arguably not as well-placed as us - finance-wise, ground-wise or academy-wise.

 

4) Keeping top-quality academy-produced talent is an equalizer and even a game-changer; it strengthens us in a cost-effective way but also denies the big clubs a source of talent.

 

Of course it's an unlikely dream, very unlikely, but what the hell happened to the notion that football is all about enjoying the ride and dreaming of the destination?

[Barry Sanchez]

Four reasons why I'm a little more open-minded about what seems like an unachievable goal:

 

1) We have absolutely no idea how much funding is actually available to us for team and infrastructure development.

 

2) We're assuming that we have to match demented spendthrifts in order to reach those levels, but financial fair play/equalization arrangements could change that - potentially significantly. That is exactly what has happened in several North American sports.

 

3) If the idea of us being a top six club is laughable, I would argue that the notion that Swansea and West Brom would challenge for a place in Europe was equally so - for most of the same reasons. They are out-competing teams that spend more and draw more, and that has always been a feature of football. And they are arguably not as well-placed as us - finance-wise, ground-wise or academy-wise.

 

4) Keeping top-quality academy-produced talent is an equalizer and even a game-changer; it strengthens us in a cost-effective way but also denies the big clubs a source of talent.

 

Of course it's an unlikely dream, very unlikely, but what the hell happened to the notion that football is all about enjoying the ride and dreaming of the destination?

 

 

That got sqaushed, trampled upon and thrashed in 1992...............................

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Four reasons why I'm a little more open-minded about what seems like an unachievable goal:

 

1) We have absolutely no idea how much funding is actually available to us for team and infrastructure development.

 

2) We're assuming that we have to match demented spendthrifts in order to reach those levels, but financial fair play/equalization arrangements could change that - potentially significantly. That is exactly what has happened in several North American sports.

 

3) If the idea of us being a top six club is laughable, I would argue that the notion that Swansea and West Brom would challenge for a place in Europe was equally so - for most of the same reasons. They are out-competing teams that spend more and draw more, and that has always been a feature of football. And they are arguably not as well-placed as us - finance-wise, ground-wise or academy-wise.

 

4) Keeping top-quality academy-produced talent is an equalizer and even a game-changer; it strengthens us in a cost-effective way but also denies the big clubs a source of talent.

 

Of course it's an unlikely dream, very unlikely, but what the hell happened to the notion that football is all about enjoying the ride and dreaming of the destination?

 

Top post. Great points, well made.

 

Further to point 3, one only needs to cast eyes across the Channel to France. And Montpellier beating PSG to the title.

 

I don't think we are all that likely to qualify for the CL. But, I don't believe that is a reason to simply not try, or that it is impossible for Saints to achieve it.

[Sharktopus]

I think we can be the biggest club in the world within 3 seasons. Four at most. They said man would never climb Everest, and that man couldn't walk on the moon. So WTFILN at those preposterous statements. This is our time. Forget that we're a global minnow and have to usurp other clubs with vast resources much in excess of where we'll ever be. Forget that other clubs have a rich history of the last 50 years which has earned them their global support. Irrelevant, especially when we move to a 45K stadium (even if we can't fill it).

 

Bring it on, I can't wait. What an epic journey, League 1 to Champions League in half a decade. Nik Nak

 

LOL. Fully agree. Why stop at 45k? Why not build a 90k Harbourdome to be partially funded by the scores of eager Rugby fans who will flock to see a Pool A game in 2015 between Tonga and Romania!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

That got sqaushed, trampled upon and thrashed in 1992...............................

 

What, Swansea being a top half team and outplaying Chelsea to reach a cup final? That definitely hasn't happened since '92.

[Barry Sanchez]

Oh a Cup game now, thats right as opposed to Cortese's long term League ambition we are now refering to a one off Cup game................................

[max_saints]

not in my lifetime. this would require a sustained high amount of spending every season for the next 5-10 seasons to improve our squad by two levels to actually reach 'top 4' standards and all that while we do not have the champions league income the established big teams have every season to sustain their high spendings. of course we do not know how much the liebherrs have left us, highly doubt its as much as city got to fast forward to where they are now, but i'll be happy to be proven wrong.

 

the dream of having half the team made up of academy players AND reach the champions league? that would be the script of a hollywood sports movie.

[Frank's cousin]

Must admit, I find the attitude tfrom some towards high aspirations (whatever the reality) quite dissapointing, especially given the moaning and vitriol shown towards the Duck shooter for showing 'none'

 

From an aspirational perspective, its great - giving up before you even start and creating your own glass ceiling seems to fly against the the very principles of competitive sport - If taking part and feeding at teh prem trough, avoiding relagtion each season is what floats your boat, fair enough, but seems defeatist IMHO.

 

From a practical perspective, its a vicious circle - even with the appropriate money, attracting and keeping the best players needs regular European competition...but to get regular European competition you need to be able to attract the and keep the best players and be able to afford them. The Status of the club can not be ignored - and our status can not be changed without regular success over a long period of time, no one would deny that.

 

The odds are against us achieving anything of the like, massively against us, even if we did have substantial funding available, but ASPIRING towards better days is surely to be welcomed rather than ridiculed? Those laughing, tend to be those that dont want 'smaller clubs' taking a spot reserved for what they consider to the rightful spot of a 'bigger' club - some might say they are frightened of the competition

[CanadaSaint]

not in my lifetime.

 

Well, in my lifetime I've seen Liverpool in (the then) Division 2, Manchester United relegated, Man City light years behind their civic neighbour, Chelsea as everybody's idea of a joke team (including their own fans), and several PL teams playing in non-league football.

 

There's reasons for clichés such as "Never say never".

[Wes Tender]

NO thats not success Wes thats coming second, when were we successful, where is goden period? It never happened and just get over it and it never happened, makes no difference to me, but finishing 2nd one year in a different era of the game does not constitute success Wes, blue nun and being aged does not mix.........................

 

So somebody who finishes second in the Olympics, the Eurovision Song Contest, second in the Tour de France, anything else you care to mention, is not successful?

 

And as I have to repeat, because the irony appears to have gone right over your head, you and others don't seem to reckon that we will ever finish in the top four without loads of money being spent, but that when we actually came second previously before, that is not deemed to constitute ever being successful by you. As I say, you're an imbecile.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Oh a Cup game now, thats right as opposed to Cortese's long term League ambition we are now refering to a one off Cup game................................

 

Maybe read the whole post mate "top half team".

 

As I said, unlikely, but not unobtainable. That's no reason to not aim for it.

 

Stranger things happen on a regular basis.

[Wes Tender]

Well, in my lifetime I've seen Liverpool in (the then) Division 2, Manchester United relegated, Man City light years behind their civic neighbour, Chelsea as everybody's idea of a joke team (including their own fans), and several PL teams playing in non-league football.

 

There's reasons for clichés such as "Never say never".

 

Me too, CS. And when I was a little nipper, the glory teams included Wolves, Bolton, Sheffield Wednesday, Blackburn, Burnley, etc. Man Utd didn't particularly register until the Munich air disaster. Some of these youngsters don't have that perspective in their lives.

[Thedelldays]

So somebody who finishes second in the Olympics, the Eurovision Song Contest, second in the Tour de France, anything else you care to mention, is not successful?

 

And as I have to repeat, because the irony appears to have gone right over your head, you and others don't seem to reckon that we will ever finish in the top four without loads of money being spent, but that when we actually came second previously before, that is not deemed to constitute ever being successful by you. As I say, you're an imbecile.

jesus christ........

 

we have never been a successful club at the top end of the game...there is no shame in that..I am happy to admit it...

 

we finished 2nd once...30 years ago, won an FA Cup even further than that and won the paint pot very recently....

 

that is not a list of honours that belong to a successful club...

we dont even have any victorian-era won trophies to cling on to...

 

I have no idea what so ever what the euro vision song contest has to do with absolutely anything with this....

 

if you think we are successful and are going to be challenging for the premier league title in the next 3-5 years...then, err, good luck with that

[SO16_Saint]

a question is are we, as fans, as ambitious as NC?

 

It would appear not based on some of the replies on here

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Oh a Cup game now, thats right as opposed to Cortese's long term League ambition we are now refering to a one off Cup game................................

 

Ha, it was definitely a Two-Legged tie as well.

 

Come on buddy, at least try and make this harder.

[CB Fry]

 

What have you started Andre?

 

Just wait until MLG, Wes Ender, Franks Cousin, CB Fry and Turkish see this...

 

10 pages I reckon.

 

I've got nothing to say except we will finish fifth next season, then third, fourth or fifth every season for the next ten years. In year eleven we will finish ninth, at which point I will march on St Marys to demand the removal of Nicola Cortese for destroying our once great club.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, on the plus side we could look back on some cracking seasons in the Championship.

[Barry Sanchez]

So somebody who finishes second in the Olympics, the Eurovision Song Contest, second in the Tour de France, anything else you care to mention, is not successful?

 

And as I have to repeat, because the irony appears to have gone right over your head, you and others don't seem to reckon that we will ever finish in the top four without loads of money being spent, but that when we actually came second previously before, that is not deemed to constitute ever being successful by you. As I say, you're an imbecile.

 

No Wes answer the question, where was this golden period? Lots of teams have finished 2nd and you using a 2nd as a successful period in our history once nearly 30 years ago does not highlight I am an inbecile, merely a person not reaching and reaching with insults either.

[sotonjoe]

You only have to look at the way that big clubs like Everton have struggled to penetrate the Top Four to realise that Southampton's task is a tough one.

 

With our dodgy financial situation and overreliance on borrowing, we could find ourselves doing a Pompey if we're not careful.

 

We must not over stretch ourselves.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

No Wes answer the question, where was this golden period? Lots of teams have finished 2nd and you using a 2nd as a successful period in our history once nearly 30 years ago does not highlight I am an inbecile, merely a person not reaching and reaching with insults either.

 

You seem to be using this thread to prove that all on your lonesome fella.

[tajjuk]

does not highlight I am an inbecile

 

You have highlighted that on your own enough times in other threads.

[manji]

Whats wrong with striving for it as long as we dont follow the fissh fucckkers method there's no harm in giving it a go.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You only have to look at the way that big clubs like Everton have struggled to penetrate the Top Four to realise that Southampton's task is a tough one.

 

With our dodgy financial situation and overreliance on borrowing, we could find ourselves doing a Pompey if we're not careful.

 

We must not over stretch ourselves.

 

Eh?

 

Sorry, are will still talking about Southampton here?

[Thedelldays]

Eh?

 

Sorry, are will still talking about Southampton here?

BVI loan...

 

then again..when we go into debt, its COMPLETELY different to everyone else

[Sour Mash]

At the fans dinner last year Cortese was talking about us being in the top 4 most followed clubs in the world as one of his targets... Let me just get my head around that!

Did he really say that. Well that's something that will definitely never happen.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

BVI loan...

 

then again..when we go into debt, its COMPLETELY different to everyone else

 

How does one loan, which we have no idea the amount of, or purpose of, equate to "Dodgy financial situation and overreliance on borrowing"?

[Thedelldays]

How does one loan, which we have no idea the amount of, or purpose of, equate to "Dodgy financial situation and overreliance on borrowing"?

he was obviously fishing for a bite...but he had a point about the borrowing....not a good start to the champions league dream when we have to borrow to spend £30m

 

where are we going to get the next £250m in the next 3 years..?

[Crazy Diamond]

In answer to the original question, I very much doubt it, and I'm actually not sure I'd welcome it, as stupid as it sounds.

[rooney]

NC knows that when the Football Fair Play Rules kick in fully, we shall have a much better chance of competing with the current top four in the premiership.

[CanadaSaint]

he was obviously fishing for a bite...but he had a point about the borrowing....not a good start to the champions league dream when we have to borrow to spend £30m

 

where are we going to get the next £250m in the next 3 years..?

 

Yeah, the borrowing thing threw me for a loop, and still does.

 

I'm not sure I buy into the "for tax reasons" rationale, but then I'm not an accountant.

 

I could buy into the "stretch ourselves this year because it becomes much easier next year" rationale, but that is moving into very different territory to where I thought we were.

[JPTCount]

if all goes to plan, by the time we are pushing for 7th or higher in two-three years the is no way we are going to know the make up in european football, 7th could be enough to get champions league and we can push on from there, but without CL we won't be able to bring the big boys in or fund it if we bring them in on the hope of getting it.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

he was obviously fishing for a bite...but he had a point about the borrowing....not a good start to the champions league dream when we have to borrow to spend £30m

 

where are we going to get the next £250m in the next 3 years..?

 

Seeing as we have no idea how much we supposedly borrowed, or why we borrowed it. It is hard to say with any level of certainty whether this has a long-term impact on long-term goals.

[Thedelldays]

Seeing as we have no idea how much we supposedly borrowed, or why we borrowed it. It is hard to say with any level of certainty whether this has a long-term impact on long-term goals.

the fact we did borrow anything says it all...we have not even broken a sweat in spending if we want champions league in 3-5 years......if spending what we have required borrowing of ANY kind....then god knows what will happen in the next 3 years when monumental sums will be needed.....

[KelvinsRightGlove]

the fact we did borrow anything says it all...we have not even broken a sweat in spending if we want champions league in 3-5 years......if spending what we have required borrowing of ANY kind....then god knows what will happen in the next 3 years when monumental sums will be needed.....

 

I like how you talk about facts whilst basing everything on speculation and what ifs.

 

It's not unheard of for companies to take out loans short-term for numerous reasons.

 

I have previously worked for companies that take in multi-m £ loans to cover temporary cash-flow problems or for tax issues, despite have turnover and profit far in excess of what Saints have.

 

As I said, without all the facts, making assumptions based solely on this is pointless.

[Wes Tender]

No Wes answer the question, where was this golden period? Lots of teams have finished 2nd and you using a 2nd as a successful period in our history once nearly 30 years ago does not highlight I am an inbecile, merely a person not reaching and reaching with insults either.

 

Ah! So somebody cannot be considered successful now if they managed to come second, but they must additionally have had a golden period of success too. And to boot, it must have been recent too.

 

Any more caveats you would like to add in a vain attempt to lessen the ridicule that you are piling onto yourself?

[Thedelldays]

Ah! So somebody cannot be considered successful now if they managed to come second, but they must additionally have had a golden period of success too. And to boot, it must have been recent too.

 

Any more caveats you would like to add in a vain attempt to lessen the ridicule that you are piling onto yourself?

we look even less successful if everyone counted all their runners up medals....ffs

[Thedelldays]

I like how you talk about facts whilst basing everything on speculation and what ifs.

 

It's not unheard of for companies to take out loans short-term for numerous reasons.

 

I have previously worked for companies that take in multi-m £ loans to cover temporary cash-flow problems or for tax issues, despite have turnover and profit far in excess of what Saints have.

 

As I said, without all the facts, making assumptions based solely on this is pointless.

If you think we took a loan as we didnt want to touch the untold billions in the bank...go for it.

[david in sweden]

a question is are we, as fans, as ambitious as NC? It would appear not based on some of the replies on here

 

In a nutshell Bridgey.... a while back " some people" on here wrote that we would be better off scoring goals in the Championship, than struggling at the bottom of the Prem.

 

--except that we wouldn't have got the £60 million + TV money either......

 

Cortese holds the purse strings (or in this case ).... the cheque book ...and I'd trust him to know how /when to spend it .

[Highfield Saint]

They still are the 5th most supported club through the turnstyles in England,

Manchester United

Liverpool

Arsenal

Newcastle (could be wrong on this)

Chelsea

 

Im descending order it is actually

 

Man Utd

Arsenal

Newcastle

Man City

Liverpool

Chelsea are 6th with 41k

 

We are 12th

[KelvinsRightGlove]

If you think we took a loan as we didnt want to touch the untold billions in the bank...go for it.

 

A) Did I say that?

 

B) Did I say we had 'untold billions in the bank'?

 

If you want to debate, debate. But at present you are simply putting words in my mouth and arguing with yourself.

 

It may just as well be that release of funds was staggered over a period, with getting more at certain times according to the '5 year plan'.

 

Being ahead of this may have meant a temporary short-coming, or cash-flow problem.

 

There, I have come up with a solution based on no facts whatsoever, but I will purport this to be FACT just like you.

 

Discussion over.