Andre Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 So we all know that big Nicola wants us to be top four, and that's all well and good and I applaud him for that because there's nothing worse than owners and managers who don't reach for the stars... but is this really something that we can think about reaching, really? What we've done, coming straight up to the elite from League One, is fantastic, but obviously the higher you get the more difficult it gets to reach the next stage, and the longer it will take with hard grafting to get there. We'll come 14th or 15th this season, 12th if we pull some amazing results off, and next season we can look to overtake the Stokes, Swanseas and West Broms of the league, but after that you're in Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs territory, the real big juggernauts. Obviously I'd love if we pushed for a Champions League place on a regular basis, but really is this something we can realistically see happening? I just can't see any way we could breach the United-City-Chelsea-other wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkoksaint Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 No we won't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Bung enough money at it and it's a possibility. But is it sustainable? Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 No. End of thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre Posted 29 January, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Bung enough money at it and it's a possibility. But is it sustainable? Probably not. Guys at the club point to our "world class youth system" (quoting from somewhere) as evidence that we can challenge the best, is this not a sustainable avenue to explore? All we have to do is stop selling our Bales, Walcotts and Shaws, right? (Not my views per se, just creating debate) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 About as much chance of that as one of the dragons out that Skyrim delivering me a tomato and cheese pizza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Guys at the club point to our "world class youth system" (quoting from somewhere) as evidence that we can challenge the best, is this not a sustainable avenue to explore? All we have to do is stop selling our Bales, Walcotts and Shaws, right? (Not my views per se, just creating debate)Whats to stop the Bales, Walcotts and Shaws not wanting to go though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 What have you started Andre? Just wait until MLG, Wes Ender, Franks Cousin, CB Fry and Turkish see this... 10 pages I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Guys at the club point to our "world class youth system" (quoting from somewhere) as evidence that we can challenge the best, is this not a sustainable avenue to explore? All we have to do is stop selling our Bales, Walcotts and Shaws, right? (Not my views per se, just creating debate) It's a great idea but I can't see us regulalry filling a side from the youth set-up, it will still need quality bought in at the prices and wages demanded by the type of top player at that level. Can any club, other than the big 4 or 5, generate enough revenue. Hope you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 His goal is certainly achievable, just look at City for instance, in today's modern football it is definitely possible to buy a title but whether it is sustainable is the real question though. Clubs that try to bat out of their natural positions by spending vast sums of cash always end up coming down to earth with a huge bang, just look at Leeds for example and of course the skates! I guess the question is, could we regularly sell out an 80k stadium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Wes Tender has already booked an easyjet flight to Lisbon for next year....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Always depends on a few simple things.... 1. Develop enough talent of the hihest quality that STAYs for several seasons - not sold at 17/18 2. Be able to attract good players that can compete at that level 3. Be able to afford to pay good players that can compete at that level the wages they could get at other clubs 4. have a manger who can get that blend right, has innovative tactical nous. Simple! Seriously odds are v low - but its less about the reality IMHO and more about the desire/ambition being more than just platitudes - ultimately, provided we dont dig a huge financial hole for ourselves and create a legacy of debt, then TRYING to deliver this is going to a lot of fun, even if it never happens - Clubs like Eveton etc have shown its possible to cyclically get that combination right - and in theory, there is nothing stoppoing others from also getting it right. What we need to understand though is that IF we ever did get it all right and have a tremendous season, it would be cyclical, as players in that higher shop window leave and we start again... could live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 His goal is certainly achievable, just look at City for instance, in today's modern football it is definitely possible to buy a title but whether it is sustainable is the real question though. Clubs that try to bat out of their natural positions by spending vast sums of cash always end up coming down to earth with a huge bang, just look at Leeds for example and of course the skates! I guess the question is, could we regularly sell out an 80k stadium? No. We probably could never fill out an 80,000 for a normal fixture let alone frequently fill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Guys at the club point to our "world class youth system" (quoting from somewhere) as evidence that we can challenge the best, is this not a sustainable avenue to explore? All we have to do is stop selling our Bales, Walcotts and Shaws, right? (Not my views per se, just creating debate) You still have to pay enormous wages to keep them though, do we have the infrastructure to support such outgoings? Can we sell out an 80k stadium for £50 a ticket each week?? Highly doubtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 All the clubs that are successful now have been successful in the past, there is the difference, we have never been successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 No. We probably could never fill out an 80,000 for a normal fixture let alone frequently fill it. I agree, we do have great support but I think that's pushing it big time. How many times have we sold out for 32k this year? At the fans dinner last year Cortese was talking about us being in the top 4 most followed clubs in the world as one of his targets... Let me just get my head around that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MongoNeil Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 The question is, would we be a big club if we made it to the top 4? *ducks and covers* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Decent year in year out investment (i.e. have an established prem squad, add one or two quality signings a year effectively two ramirez's or equivalent) , luck with youth products, make the most money possible out of any forced sales (i.e if Chelsea want to buy someone like Shaw, we sell him for Rooney level money not Bale level money), increase marketing, merchandising and other off-field commercial activities to increase turnover, get more fans in (probably need a cup win in there somewhere). Do all that then In 7 or 8 years or so we might be challenging top 4 if no new Man City's come into the league. Essentially we have do what Spurs have done since Levy took them over in 2001. They were a bigger 'name' in 2001 than we are now so that's an advantage and they have the attraction of London. We seem to have a more productive academy and don't have to build a new stadium like them. All the clubs that are successful now have been successful in the past, there is the difference, we have never been successful. I think these days this is becoming less important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Anyone who thinks we can break into the Top 4 any time soon without Man City scale investment is a deluded moron who should be banned from breeding so his stupidity can not be passed down through the generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 I agree, we do have great support but I think that's pushing it big time. How many times have we sold out for 32k this year? At the fans dinner last year Cortese was talking about us being in the top 4 most followed clubs in the world as one of his targets... Let me just get my head around that! Cortese can say that and I can say the moon is square but it does not make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 So we all know that big Nicola wants us to be top four, and that's all well and good and I applaud him for that because there's nothing worse than owners and managers who don't reach for the stars... but is this really something that we can think about reaching, really? What we've done, coming straight up to the elite from League One, is fantastic, but obviously the higher you get the more difficult it gets to reach the next stage, and the longer it will take with hard grafting to get there. We'll come 14th or 15th this season, 12th if we pull some amazing results off, and next season we can look to overtake the Stokes, Swanseas and West Broms of the league, but after that you're in Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs territory, the real big juggernauts. Obviously I'd love if we pushed for a Champions League place on a regular basis, but really is this something we can realistically see happening? I just can't see any way we could breach the United-City-Chelsea-other wall... As unlikely as it would appear to be, nobody can say with 100% certainty that it is an impossibility. You only have to look to the examples of the teams that you have listed to see that the football landscape is constantly changing. Liverpool would have been unassailable if this debate was held 5 years ago, but then Manchester City wouldn't have been there bracketed together with United and Chelsea, and go back a little further and Chelsea wouldn't have been there either and it's only during the past few seasons that Spurs have risen once more towards the top and yet you describe them as really big juggernauts. Several factors will have a direct bearing on the situation over the next few years. New legislation by Football's governing bodies will attempt to level the playing field regarding the percentage of turnover that can be spent on players and their wages. Managers at the top like Ferguson will change, as will owners. Nobody can predict with any degree of certainty what the effect of all these changes will be on the hierarchy of the Premiership. During my lifetime, I've seen substantial changes already and that gives me an open mind about these things, so that whereas I think that it would be unlikely for us to achieve Champions League football, I don't rule it out entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 could start by signing someone of real intent then before thurs......instead of some 20 year old we all have to google Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Cortese can say that and I can say the moon is square but it does not make it right. He was berating our pr guy about us breaking into the top 10 followed on facebook within two years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Seem to remember a similar thread when he first came to the club. Is the ambition to return us to the Premier League in just five years realistically obtainable? Many fans feared we were growing too fast and we would just crash down again. I would trust NC's ambitions against most fans to be honest so yes, with him at the helm it is obtainable. I reallly don't want to be part of a Chelski / Man Citeh deal though. I want to see the vision he has described which has 50% coming through the youth system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 All the clubs that are successful now have been successful in the past, there is the difference, we have never been successful. Chelsea weren't particularly successful historically were they? There is no divine right to be a top 4 club or not over decades-long perspectives. Preston NE once were very successful in 2 separate eras. Now are nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Chelsea weren't particularly successful historically were they? There is no divine right to be a top 4 club or not over decades-long perspectives. Preston NE once were very successful in 2 separate eras. Now are nothing. no, but spending £300m+ gives a go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Seem to remember a similar thread when he first came to the club. Is the ambition to return us to the Premier League in just five years realistically obtainable? Many fans feared we were growing too fast and we would just crash down again. I would trust NC's ambitions against most fans to be honest so yes, with him at the helm it is obtainable. I reallly don't want to be part of a Chelski / Man Citeh deal though. I want to see the vision he has described which has 50% coming through the youth system. Nobody said that returning us to the premiership in five years was unachievable. It's completely different to having a sustainable top four club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 I thought NC downgraded the target to top six in 3 or 4 years, with the caveat of holding on to the core of the squad in his last interview with Jimbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 As unlikely as it would appear to be, nobody can say with 100% certainty that it is an impossibility. You only have to look to the examples of the teams that you have listed to see that the football landscape is constantly changing. Liverpool would have been unassailable if this debate was held 5 years ago, but then Manchester City wouldn't have been there bracketed together with United and Chelsea, and go back a little further and Chelsea wouldn't have been there either and it's only during the past few seasons that Spurs have risen once more towards the top and yet you describe them as really big juggernauts. Several factors will have a direct bearing on the situation over the next few years. New legislation by Football's governing bodies will attempt to level the playing field regarding the percentage of turnover that can be spent on players and their wages. Managers at the top like Ferguson will change, as will owners. Nobody can predict with any degree of certainty what the effect of all these changes will be on the hierarchy of the Premiership. During my lifetime, I've seen substantial changes already and that gives me an open mind about these things, so that whereas I think that it would be unlikely for us to achieve Champions League football, I don't rule it out entirely. Manchester United Liverpool The above two are huge, in the top six/seven clubs in the World. Then you have Chelsea Arsenal Spurs and Everton, again massive clubs with an established fanbase And then you have Man City who can buy anything. So before we start what four of those seven are we going to overtake to become a top four side? Lets get real here, City are only just getting up to the speed now and how much have they spent? Are we going to spend that amount? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Chelsea weren't particularly successful historically were they? There is no divine right to be a top 4 club or not over decades-long perspectives. Preston NE once were very successful in 2 separate eras. Now are nothing. Chelsea could get into trouble if Roman pulls the plug on the cash flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre Posted 29 January, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 January, 2013 At the fans dinner last year Cortese was talking about us being in the top 4 most followed clubs in the world as one of his targets... That... is the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Bung enough money at it and it's a possibility. But is it sustainable? Probably not. This. We could certainly do a Blackburn, but it would never last. We simply arent "big" enough (not in captial, inadequate history/prestige, insufficient fan base, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Chelsea could get into trouble if Roman pulls the plug on the cash flow. They would sink in a mire of debt and the 'fanbase' revert back to the 20-30K max of the 70s and 80s.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints foreva Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Not without a Man City type takeover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 All the clubs that are successful now have been successful in the past, there is the difference, we have never been successful. What a dismal failure that was coming runners up in the top flight in 83/84 season to the illustrious Liverpool having been in the top 5 for most of the season. And having that season finished ahead of Man Utd in 4th, Arsenal in 6th, Spurs 8th and Chelsea and Newcastle in the second division. Yes, we've never had success at all, have we, Barry? I have no idea how old you are, so perhaps you meant not during your lifetime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Chelsea weren't particularly successful historically were they? There is no divine right to be a top 4 club or not over decades-long perspectives. Preston NE once were very successful in 2 separate eras. Now are nothing. Before Ambramovich? 5 most supported club in the Country in terms of people going through the gates. League Winners 1955 FA Cup 1970 1997 2000 League Cup 1965 1998 UEFA Cup 1971 1998 Super Cup 1998 This does not include Champions League places, being close to winning the Premiership on a number of occasions, runners up etc etc Yes very unsuccessful....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 What a dismal failure that was coming runners up in the top flight in 83/84 season to the illustrious Liverpool having been in the top 5 for most of the season. And having that season finished ahead of Man Utd in 4th, Arsenal in 6th, Spurs 8th and Chelsea and Newcastle in the second division. Yes, we've never had success at all, have we, Barry? I have no idea how old you are, so perhaps you meant not during your lifetime Runners Up success nearly 30 years ago success? Please, we have never achieved near enough we should of for a club of our size but Cortese is talking out of his hoop if he thinks we can anywhere near the echelons of football and you are for thinking we are a successful or were one, we have an FA Cup in the drawer, thats it and there should be a lot more but not as much as Cortese thinks we will get. I am 37 by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 So we all know that big Nicola wants us to be top four, and that's all well and good and I applaud him for that because there's nothing worse than owners and managers who don't reach for the stars... but is this really something that we can think about reaching, really? What we've done, coming straight up to the elite from League One, is fantastic, but obviously the higher you get the more difficult it gets to reach the next stage, and the longer it will take with hard grafting to get there. We'll come 14th or 15th this season, 12th if we pull some amazing results off, and next season we can look to overtake the Stokes, Swanseas and West Broms of the league, but after that you're in Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs territory, the real big juggernauts. Obviously I'd love if we pushed for a Champions League place on a regular basis, but really is this something we can realistically see happening? I just can't see any way we could breach the United-City-Chelsea-other wall... If NC really wants us to be Top Four, their are Two BASIC requirements Guarenteed sustainable yearly Investment in the Playing Staff A Minimum 45000 Stadium If he goes with that, then, YES ..... NC may deliver the Dream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 They would sink in a mire of debt and the 'fanbase' revert back to the 20-30K max of the 70s and 80s.... That could be said for every club other than United, we would be ****** without Leibherr's money, nothing new here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 That could be said for every club other than United, we would be ****** without Leibherr's money, nothing new here. I don't believe that. If ML didn't invest someone else would have bought us, the infrastructure was a steal for what they paid. Then with a 20k+ average attendance in league 1 we probably still would have promoted within 2 seasons as we were and then who knows what we would have done in the championship, we could have still been in the same boat we are now. (Without Ramirez) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 They would sink in a mire of debt and the 'fanbase' revert back to the 20-30K max of the 70s and 80s.... No they wouldn't, they are now one of the top earning clubs in the world (6th highest on revenue). They sell more shirts than Liverpool, Bayern Munich and AC Milan, Arsenal, Junventus and Inter. Man City are already 12th on Revenue. Both clubs are established enough now that they would still be big european clubs without the backiing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 I don't believe that. If ML didn't invest someone else would have bought us, the infrastructure was a steal for what they paid. Then with a 20k+ average attendance in league 1 we probably still would have promoted within 2 seasons as we were and then who knows what we would have done in the championship, we could have still been in the same boat we are now. (Without Ramirez) If's but's and maybe's and an awful lot of speculation thrown in for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 (edited) About as much chance of that as one of the dragons out that Skyrim delivering me a tomato and cheese pizza. I'm sure many would have said the same about Citeh winning the league & being in the Champions League when they were in League 1, what 12 - 15 years ago? (cannae remember the exact dates, but pretty sure it was around then. Bung enough money at it and it's a possibility. But is it sustainable? Probably not. Probably, but look at City/Chelsea/PSG, not that many clubs are all that sustainable these days without their wealthy backers. If only we were owned by a deceased billionaire.... Edited 29 January, 2013 by KelvinsRightGlove They clearly haven't won the CL, plank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 City, Chelsea and PSG have the obvious, fans/people and also London and Paris, we have Sholing and Woolston...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 If's but's and maybe's and an awful lot of speculation thrown in for good measure. Just look how easy it's been for Leeds, Forest etc to climb back to the prem. I don't think we would have gone under, someone would have got us but could just as easily been a joke consortium like Pinnacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Manchester United Liverpool The above two are huge, in the top six/seven clubs in the World. Then you have Chelsea Arsenal Spurs and Everton, again massive clubs with an established fanbase And then you have Man City who can buy anything. So before we start what four of those seven are we going to overtake to become a top four side? Lets get real here, City are only just getting up to the speed now and how much have they spent? Are we going to spend that amount? Well, as I've picked holes in another of your posts, I might as well pick some in this one too. For all that Liverpool are huge as a World renowned club with an illustrious history, that didn't stop them falling out of the top 4 did it? It doesn't take more than a few seconds to find pages of stuff on how they are declining. http://liverpoolfc-talk.com/2012/08/01/liverpools-last-5-seasons-stats-reveal-a-disturbing-trend-rogers-has-to-address/ http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/liverpool/news/fergie-shocked-by-liverpool-decline_63695.html You'll note also Ferguson mentioning Arsenal's decline too in that second link. Obviously we aren't going to outspend Chelsea and Man City, but neither do Man Utd outspend them. It doesn't mean that with some very talented players comparable to Walcott, Bale, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Shaw coming through our academy, together with some astute additions bought in, that we couldn't field a team capable of beating Man City's mega-expensive team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Runners Up success nearly 30 years ago success? Please, we have never achieved near enough we should of for a club of our size but Cortese is talking out of his hoop if he thinks we can anywhere near the echelons of football and you are for thinking we are a successful or were one, we have an FA Cup in the drawer, thats it and there should be a lot more but not as much as Cortese thinks we will get. I am 37 by the way. You said that we have never been successful. You're plainly wrong. As usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naboo_thats_who Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 If Everton/Newcastle (last season) can push for top 4 why cant we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 Liverpool??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharktopus Posted 29 January, 2013 Share Posted 29 January, 2013 If we stay up this season, which I feel we are fairly likely to do then I reckon this is a reasonable scenario: Couple of seasons comfortable midtable consolidation (9th-13th place finishes, safe of relegation well before Easter etc), blooding a few youth talents in the first team gradually with the odd marquee signing in the transfer windows focusing on improvements on our existing squad. No cup runs, unless we have a ridiculously favourable draw. Cortese seems to dislike cups, I seem to remember reports of him bollocking Pardew for focusing on the JPT rather than the league? From there it would be a case of qualifying for the Europa League, putting in a decent effort, but still focusing mainly on the league. Through group stage, out at quarters tops. From there, the next project would begin... That is in my opinion, the peak of our reasonable expectations for the next period, and could well be in the project that Pochettino has been brought in to oversee. It assumes no or few injuries to key players, and that we keep hold of our key performers...no heads being turned by promises of money and silverware etc etc. There is no way we will be qualifying for the Champions League anytime soon without, as numerous people have said, a ridiculous amount of cash being flung at us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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