Are people beginning to see what Cortese is up to?

[shurlock]

The majority of non Saints fans when i was at School in the 80's and early 90's were Liverpool. Liverpool were the top team in the 80's. Kids will follow the top teams or their local one. Not difficult really is it.

 

Which means discussions of catchment areas, history and size aren't that relevant. Success can bypass all that. And there's no greater determinant of success than money invested wisely.

[shurlock]

Same. I think we're making similar points but from different angles.

 

It's a real chicken and egg situation for me. We need a broad base of support to sustainably finance a top team, yet we need a top team to get a broad base of support!

 

Undeniably NA's sacking will be a black mark on us for some, although I don't think we'll lose the neutrals, as many pundits have suggested. Even if we do, how do they help us to become a top team?

 

I have to admit, I want a lot more than CB Fry from this Saints setup, not because I feel I'm owed it, but because the potential is actually there.

 

Wouldn't even say its a chicken-and-egg. I can think you can kickstart a virtuous circle of success and growing support with sufficient initial finance (though I don't believe we have the amounts necessary and don't really care either).

[CB Fry]

I just wanted to know how far you were willing to take your Cortese beef.

 

From the sounds of it, seems like you'll just fall in line with everyone else.

 

 

 

If you describe supporting a football team as "falling into line" then yes. You win. Bizarre phrase.

 

 

We'll fall in line with you forever more.

[pap]

If you describe supporting a football team as "falling into line" then yes. You win. Bizarre phrase.

 

 

We'll fall in line with you forever more.

 

I am happy enough with the response I got.

 

I operate a highly efficient categorisation system for SaintsWeb posters. You've just been popped into the "moaner with no real conviction" bucket.

[CB Fry]

I am happy enough with the response I got.

 

I operate a highly efficient categorisation system for SaintsWeb posters. You've just been popped into the "moaner with no real conviction" bucket.

 

 

Rather that than doe eyed fantasist going goey at the thought of the Champions League.

 

You haven't demonstrated any conviction here either. Except to narrowing the debate to black/white wafer thin meaninglessness.

[pap]

Rather that than doe eyed fantasist going goey at the thought of the Champions League.

 

You haven't demonstrated any conviction here either.

 

Think I've outlined my stance fairly comprehensively on here. If you want to deploy the strawman, pick a poster who uses less words and doesn't explain his points.

[The9]

Reluctantly I am also coming around to the thinking that Adkins' departure was inevitable, I even expressed my concerns about Adkins' ability to sign Prem players (if we got back there) when we appointed him.

 

I'm not convinced Pochettino is necessarily an upgrade with the players we have, and it's still a gamble with the situation being far from secure, but I can see how he might be more suited to the kind of players I assume we will be bringing in, and an asset to that process.

 

On that note, I'm now on board Pochettino's Plane (figuratively speaking), and hoping we're linked to every over 34 ex-Argentinian international colleague he has, just for the lolz. I'll also be gutted if there's no Coloccini link, we're much nearer Argentina than Newcastle are.

 

Oh yeah, and when we lose to Man U, prepare for the new manager backlash from the terminally stupid. If we also lose to Wigan, I'll be glad I'll be stuck in an hotel oop narth and not on here, that's for sure.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Which means discussions of catchment areas, history and size aren't that relevant. Success can bypass all that. And there's no greater determinant of success than money invested wisely.

 

But history does matter because the long history of success attached to certain clubs (such as Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc) means that their 'catchment area' is effectively the entire country - can you really see our club getting coach loads of fans down from Northumberland or North Wales anytime soon? As for investing wisely in football, the record shows that this is almost a contradiction in terms as most PL clubs struggle to break even at best - and some can't even manage that.

 

If you want to make real money from investments then don't spend it on trying to turn a regional football club into something it can never be would seem to be the lesson - ask any Pompy/Leeds/Blackburn Rovers fan.

[The9]

The majority of non Saints fans when i was at School in the 80's and early 90's were Liverpool. Liverpool were the top team in the 80's. Kids will follow the top teams or their local one. Not difficult really is it.

 

Absolutely agree : Liverpool, then Man U, then a smattering of Everton fans, along with the quirky ones (eg one Leeds and one Saints fan, which wasn't me) in my year at school, in the pure plastic haven of late 70s/early 80s south east Wales. My uncle is 9 years older than me and he supported Leeds, who were of course on top in the early-mid 70s.

 

I even recall a burst of Blackburn fans blossoming in the region in 1995 for a few months.

 

The only thing different now is you'll get kids claiming to be Barcelona fans as well.

[Turkish]

But history does matter because the long history of success attached to certain clubs (such as Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc) means that their 'catchment area' is effectively the entire country - can you really see our club getting coach loads of fans down from Northumberland or North Wales anytime soon? As for investing wisely in football, the record shows that this is almost a contradiction in terms as most PL clubs struggle to break even at best - and some can't even manage that.

 

If you want to make real money from investments then don't spend it on trying to turn a regional football club into something it can never be would seem to be the lesson - ask any Pompy/Leeds/Blackburn Rovers fan.

 

I am surprised so many of our internet fans fail to grasp this relatively simple concept.

[CB Fry]

Think I've outlined my stance fairly comprehensively on here. If you want to deploy the strawman, pick a poster who uses less words and doesn't explain his points.

 

Err. So have I. Read the thread again before reverting to "so wot you gonna do abaat it" petulance.

[pap]

Err. So have I. Read the thread again before reverting to "so wot you gonna do abaat it" petulance.

 

I've read your posts.

 

You are welcome to think that Swansea, Stoke and WBA have more engaging visions than we do. As I said before, Swansea are a well run team insulated against managerial change. They're in a final, play good football and have many admirers outside of Wales. The WBA vision? Be a yo yo club until they're not anymore and run the club on a sound financial footing. Sign me up!

 

We cannot forget Stoke's vision, which as far as I can make out, is survival at any cost; football is optional. Where does the signing of Owen fit into Stoke's engaging vision?

 

I also read your post where you state what sort of club you'd like us to be. I'll credit you with some passion on that. Perhaps you could formulate a counter-offer to the Liebherrs, explaining that you're not really up for NCs plan. Do mention your desired outcome, permanent Premier League mediocrity in which we dish out the occasional bloody nose. They'll definitely pick that over this punt for sustained success.

[shurlock]

But history does matter because the long history of success attached to certain clubs (such as Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc) means that their 'catchment area' is effectively the entire country - can you really see our club getting coach loads of fans down from Northumberland or North Wales anytime soon? As for investing wisely in football, the record shows that this is almost a contradiction in terms as most PL clubs struggle to break even at best - and some can't even manage that.

 

If you want to make real money from investments then don't spend it on trying to turn a regional football club into something it can never be would seem to be the lesson - ask any Pompy/Leeds/Blackburn Rovers fan.

 

Agree that having a history does matter to an extent, though it matters less to a 9 year old when he's choosing a club. While United might trot out it's legends, it's post 90s success marked a break with its history, not a continuation of it. United's scale today dwarfs anything seen in the 70s and 80s. Support follows success not the other way around.

You talk about regional football clubs -the skates, blackburn etc- flopping. True but arguably their fate had less to do with being provincial clubs than them not sustaining success for long enough period that would have allowed them to go national (Leeds did sustain success but did so in a pre-Sky era).

Man City provides the best and interesting litmus test - IMO, it's a provincial club though much bigger than us. It looks like it will be successful for quite a while: will that be enough for it to go national/global?

Edited 24 January, 2013 by shurlock

[CB Fry]

I've read your posts.

 

You are welcome to think that Swansea, Stoke and WBA have more engaging visions than we do. As I said before, Swansea are a well run team insulated against managerial change. They're in a final, play good football and have many admirers outside of Wales. The WBA vision? Be a yo yo club until they're not anymore and run the club on a sound financial footing. Sign me up!

 

We cannot forget Stoke's vision, which as far as I can make out, is survival at any cost; football is optional. Where does the signing of Owen fit into Stoke's engaging vision?

 

I also read your post where you state what sort of club you'd like us to be. I'll credit you with some passion on that. Perhaps you could formulate a counter-offer to the Liebherrs, explaining that you're not really up for NCs plan. Do mention your desired outcome, permanent Premier League mediocrity in which we dish out the occasional bloody nose. They'll definitely pick that over this punt for sustained success.

 

Blimey. Bizarre reply.

 

Neither WBA or Stoke have been anywhere near a relegation battle for some time.

 

You want better than that, fine. We need to beat a cup final, Europe and consistent top ten/twelve finishes. Good. Not match it. Beat it.

 

I have no idea what you are blathering about me writing to the Leibherrs, you either take this forum far too seriously or you are getting deranged in you rabid defence if anyone saying anything against them. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is the latter.

 

Lastly, glad you like the vision. Personally I think it does look like "sustained success". I worry how upset you'll be if we don't make the Champions League because you are ranting like a desperate child on Christmas Eve.

 

I'm happy to scrape up this year. And next? I dunno. Thirteenth'll do me....could you handle that?

Edited 24 January, 2013 by CB Fry

[pap]

Blimey. Bizarre reply.

 

Neither WBA or Stoke have been anywhere near a relegation battle for some time.

 

You want better than that, fine. We need to beat a cup final, Europe and consistent top ten/twelve finishes. Good. Not match it. Beat it.

 

I have no idea what you are blathering about me writing to the Leibherrs, you either take this forum far too seriously or you are getting deranged in you rabid defence if anyone saying anything against them. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is the latter.

 

Lastly, glad you like the vision. Personally I think it does look like "sustained success". I worry how upset you'll be if we don't make the Champions League because you are ranting like a desperate child on Christmas Eve.

 

I'm happy to scrape up this year. And next? I dunno. Thirteenth'll do me....could you handle that?

 

I have no expectation of a Champions League spot for a long time. This year, anywhere near the top half will do me. 10th or better would be immense given our current placing, but I'd really not like to start next season as "strugglers".

 

Next year, I'd like to see us have a go at a European spot or a cup.

 

While it might inflate your own argument to portray your opponent as a desperate child craving Europe's top competition, the reality is that I want to see progression at a greater rate than yourself, and that unlike yourself, I do believe that if the commitment is there from the Liebherrs, or the club can generate enough revenue from player sales off a well-oiled conveyor belt, then yep, a Champions League spot is possible eventually.

[Sour Mash]

Agree that having a history does matter to an extent, though it matters less to a 9 year old when he's choosing a club. While United might trot out it's legends, it's post 90s success marked a break with its history, not a continuation of it. United's scale today dwarfs anything seen in the 70s and 80s. Support follows success not the other way around.

You talk about regional football clubs -the skates, blackburn etc- flopping. True but arguably their fate had less to do with being provincial clubs than them not sustaining success for long enough period that would have allowed them to go national (Leeds did sustain success but did so in a pre-Sky era).

Man City provides the best and interesting litmus test - IMO, it's a provincial club though much bigger than us. It looks like it will be successful for quite a while: will that be enough for it to go national/global?

Why is what happened to United in the 90s a break from from their history? Also, you say support follows success and not vice versa - obviously true to an extent, but all the genuinely big clubs in this country have all been big for the last 50 years at least if not more - you can get the odd freak result of a Blackburn winning the League, but look who's up there now in the Prem, Man United, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton - all with a long, long history of big support and drawing support from all over the country that has built up since the 1960s. Edited 24 January, 2013 by Sour Mash

[Sour Mash]

I have no expectation of a Champions League spot for a long time. This year, anywhere near the top half will do me. 10th or better would be immense given our current placing, but I'd really not like to start next season as "strugglers".

 

Next year, I'd like to see us have a go at a European spot or a cup.

 

While it might inflate your own argument to portray your opponent as a desperate child craving Europe's top competition, the reality is that I want to see progression at a greater rate than yourself, and that unlike yourself, I do believe that if the commitment is there from the Liebherrs, or the club can generate enough revenue from player sales off a well-oiled conveyor belt, then yep, a Champions League spot is possible eventually.

What sort of ball park figures you think we'd be looking at there?

[stevegrant]

Why is what happened to United in the 90s a break from from their history? Also, you say support follows success and not vice versa - obviously true to an extent, but all the genuinely big clubs in this country have all been big for the last 50 years at least if not more - you can get the odd frak result of a Blackburn winning the League, but look who's up there now in the Prem, Man United, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton - all with a long, long history of big support and drawing support from all over the country that has built up since the 1960s.

Not sure I'd put Chelsea in that group of historically big support, but agree otherwise.

[Sour Mash]

Not sure I'd put Chelsea in that group of historically big support, but agree otherwise.

Probably not quite the same as the others you're right, but they've always been a high-profile club, with support and attention from across the country, even when their team was terrible and actual match day attendances were poor.

[Saint George]

Back in the late 60's early 70's the majority of kids at my school in Dorset supported either Man Utd, Leeds, West Ham or Spurs, with a small spattering of Chelsea.....No coincidence those were the teams around the top of div 1 and regularly associated with FA Cup finals etc

[shurlock]

Why is what happened to United in the 90s a break from from their history? Also, you say support follows success and not vice versa - obviously true to an extent, but all the genuinely big clubs in this country have all been big for the last 50 years at least if not more - you can get the odd freak result of a Blackburn winning the League, but look who's up there now in the Prem, Man United, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Everton - all with a long, long history of big support and drawing support from all over the country that has built up since the 1960s.

 

United hadn't won the league since the mid-70s -and while they finished twice a few times in the 80s, the playing field was more level back then (just look at us) -and they had also regularly bumped along in midtable. What they've done under Fergy blows their record out of the water -and no doubt the growth in their support mirrors this shift.

Regards City and Chelsea, they're not huge clubs IMO: true Chelsea has always benefitted from exiles in the home counties and a mystique from the 60s but a top 10 finish was beyond them before Harding and Abramovic's money (again I'd been keen to know their support before/after) while City have always struck me as a slightly bigger than average, top tier, provincial club: in my time watching football: Villa, Forest, Wednesday, Leeds, even perhaps Wham/Sunderland have all been bigger clubs.

[CB Fry]

I have no expectation of a Champions League spot for a long time. This year, anywhere near the top half will do me. 10th or better would be immense given our current placing, but I'd really not like to start next season as "strugglers".

 

Next year, I'd like to see us have a go at a European spot or a cup.

 

While it might inflate your own argument to portray your opponent as a desperate child craving Europe's top competition, the reality is that I want to see progression at a greater rate than yourself, and that unlike yourself, I do believe that if the commitment is there from the Liebherrs, or the club can generate enough revenue from player sales off a well-oiled conveyor belt, then yep, a Champions League spot is possible eventually.

 

I think two areas where we differ the most then is

 

a) I am far from convinced that the Liebherrs have the will to bank roll the club to the Champions League. I think they expect us to wash our own face in the biggest league in the world. This years loan tells me that, and the investment in developing youth, and the fact that we don't look anything like doing a QPR any time soon.

 

b) I am not inflating an argument you're doing a decent job yourself. A European spot requires us to finish sixth next season in all reasonable likelihood, or win the league cup or get to the FA Cup final. Next season. That is not exactly demonstrating patience. Is a League Cup win and a 14th place finish acceptable to you? Or is that too much like one of those loser clubs that you and Cortese would never want us to be like?

[pap]

I think two areas where we differ the most then is

 

a) I am far from convinced that the Liebherrs have the will to bank roll the club to the Champions League. I think they expect us to wash our own face in the biggest league in the world. This years loan tells me that, and the investment in developing youth, and the fact that we don't look anything like doing a QPR any time soon.

 

b) I am not inflating an argument you're doing a decent job yourself. A European spot requires us to finish sixth next season in all reasonable likelihood, or win the league cup or get to the FA Cup final. Next season. That is not exactly demonstrating patience. Is a League Cup win and a 14th place finish acceptable to you? Or is that too much like one of those loser clubs that you and Cortese would never want us to be like?

 

Do you need the term "have a go" spelt out to you, CB Fry?

[pap]

I think two areas where we differ the most then is

 

a) I am far from convinced that the Liebherrs have the will to bank roll the club to the Champions League. I think they expect us to wash our own face in the biggest league in the world. This years loan tells me that, and the investment in developing youth, and the fact that we don't look anything like doing a QPR any time soon.

 

b) I am not inflating an argument you're doing a decent job yourself. A European spot requires us to finish sixth next season in all reasonable likelihood, or win the league cup or get to the FA Cup final. Next season. That is not exactly demonstrating patience. Is a League Cup win and a 14th place finish acceptable to you? Or is that too much like one of those loser clubs that you and Cortese would never want us to be like?

 

Soz for the posts in quick succession, but to your first point - you are correct that the loan looks dodgy. I like it about as much as you do.

 

That doesn't mean future funding is cut off, just means that it wasn't given at that time. Again, this happens all the time in the business world. Proposal not good enough? You're not having the capital expenditure. Proposal is good enough, you get the cash.

 

MP constitutes a new business plan.

[CB Fry]

Do you need the term "have a go" spelt out to you, CB Fry?

 

From you, yes I do. I talked about finishing mid table as being my expectation, and am being told by you that your vision is for faster and quicker success and how you and Nicola want so much more tham me and my unambitious vision of doing about as well as West Brom or Stoke.

 

"Having a go at Europe" next season might involve ending up finishing 11th or 12th, like WBA or Stoke. Is that good enough for you, because it would be great for me, and I'm a loser.

 

Because if it good enough for you, it turns out that you are actually just full of "bluster" (to use your phrase) after all. Where does our "have a go" get us to next season in your fast, quicker success world?

 

 

 

Just an afterthought: If I am honest the very phrase "have a go" is intrinsically lame. The kind of thing you hear on FA Cup third round day. Or from the likes of West Brom when discussing their European ambitions. It's fascinating you've used a phrase like this now when previously you have been so bullish about how fantastically successful Cortese's New Saints are going to be.

Edited 24 January, 2013 by CB Fry

[Sour Mash]

United hadn't won the league since the mid-70s -and while they finished twice a few times in the 80s, the playing field was more level back then (just look at us) -and they had also regularly bumped along in midtable. What they've done under Fergy blows their record out of the water -and no doubt the growth in their support mirrors this shift.

Regards City and Chelsea, they're not huge clubs IMO: true Chelsea has always benefitted from exiles in the home counties and a mystique from the 60s but a top 10 finish was beyond them before Harding and Abramovic's money (again I'd been keen to know their support before/after) while City have always struck me as a slightly bigger than average, top tier, provincial club: in my time watching football: Villa, Forest, Wednesday, Leeds, even perhaps Wham/Sunderland have all been bigger clubs.

Manchester United got the biggest crowds in English football when they were in the 2nd tier in the 70s . Chelsea's record attendance is 83k, the third highest in English football. Man City have the highest ever record attendance of English football. Teams and clubs will have their dips, but being a big club, with nationwide, historical support, that doesn't come over night, it has roots going back many, many years, intertwined with the history of the English game.

[Thedelldays]

Manchester United got the biggest crowds in English football when they were in the 2nd tier in the 70s . Chelsea's record attendance is 83k, the third highest in English football. Man City have the highest ever record attendance of English football. Teams and clubs will have their dips, but being a big club, with nationwide, historical support, that doesn't come over night, it has roots going back many, many years, intertwined with the history of the English game.

just look at pompey....massive..they got 100k once dont ya know...(or they would have you believe)

[Webby]

Just been thinking about cortese's vision. How do you compete with the best, on the field? You need better and better players, simple as that. The question is, how do you get those players? Firstly, you need the money. It would appear that we have that, but that's obviously not enough on its own. You need to show ambition. We are doing that, but to a player, that can probably be seen as 'talk'. How do you make a player believe you're going places and that you mean it? You can show them the oft talked about DVD and the stadium expansion plans. That might help, but also, I think that the first step to becoming a bigger club is to act like a bigger club. We are showing interest in big name players, players that are linked to bigger clubs such as Liverpool for instance. Now, even if we have no hope of getting them, it looks good and it has a knock on effect. We're fishing in the lake now instead of the pond. I think that this is the difference that MP will make over NA.