Are people beginning to see what Cortese is up to?

[Crab Lungs]

Yes indeed.

 

The one phrase I think I said repeatedly to my two brothers and my friends I talk Saints with last Friday was "he could have been our Tony Pulis".

 

And that is all I wanted. Solid, regular mid table Prem football. A cup run. A euro adventure. A bumpy relegation scrap. Occasionally beating Arsenal. Youngsters coming through. Unearthing bargains from lower divisions and abroad. The reputation, well earned, of playing "lovely stuff". A manager, not glam enough to ever leave but too bloody good to ever fail.

 

I think we had that in the palm of our hand. Now I am not so sure.

 

Yup. This.

 

I used to want success at any cost but now I'm thinking - at what cost?

 

Still, it's done now.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

Yes indeed.

 

The one phrase I think I said repeatedly to my two brothers and my friends I talk Saints with last Friday was "he could have been our Tony Pulis".

 

And that is all I wanted. Solid, regular mid table Prem football. A cup run. A euro adventure. A bumpy relegation scrap. Occasionally beating Arsenal. Youngsters coming through. Unearthing bargains from lower divisions and abroad. The reputation, well earned, of playing "lovely stuff". A manager, not glam enough to ever leave but too bloody good to ever fail.

 

I think we had that in the palm of our hand. Now I am not so sure.

 

I am sure we no longer have anything remotely like what you describe.

[The Kraken]

I'm somewhat heartened at how the last few posts of this thread (which have spoken utter sense) are, not yet at least, being disseminated into a ludicrous discussion as to how a 45K stadium is on the horizon and the avenue to our future.

 

If the self-titled intelligent posters could hold off for a bit more, that would be great.

[saints_is_the_south]

And that is all I wanted. Solid, regular mid table Prem football. A cup run. A euro adventure. A bumpy relegation scrap. Occasionally beating Arsenal. Youngsters coming through. Unearthing bargains from lower divisions and abroad. The reputation, well earned, of playing "lovely stuff". A manager, not glam enough to ever leave but too bloody good to ever fail.

 

I think we had that in the palm of our hand. Now I am not so sure.

 

We had all of that in the palm of our hand prior to relegation in 2005. And the common consensus is that we got relegated because of Lowe's lack of ambition. I get that the Premier League and the money in football has changed in a big way since then, but had Lowe shown more ambition and not allowed us to regress and stagnate then we would never have got relegated in the first place and eventually watch our club travel to deaths door.

 

Cortese clearly has huge ambition for this football club and based on the above, I'm glad he has. As Nigel said himself, aim for the stars and you might just reach the moon. Or be happy with being a mid table club and end up getting relegated.

[Sour Mash]

We had all of that in the palm of our hand prior to relegation in 2005. And the common consensus is that we got relegated because of Lowe's lack of ambition. I get that the Premier League and the money in football has changed in a big way since then, but had Lowe shown more ambition and not allowed us to regress and stagnate then we would never have got relegated in the first place and eventually watch our club travel to deaths door.

 

Cortese clearly has huge ambition for this football club and based on the above, I'm glad he has. As Nigel said himself, aim for the stars and you might just reach the moon. Or be happy with being a mid table club and end up getting relegated.

Rubbish. Plenty of excessively ambitious clubs have ended up being relegated. And lots of sensible, pragmatic clubs have been successful in the Prem. There is very little substance in reality for your theory.

[saints_is_the_south]

Rubbish. Plenty of excessively ambitious clubs have ended up being relegated. And lots of sensible, pragmatic clubs have been successful in the Prem. There is very little substance in reality for your theory.

 

And plenty of 'sensible, pragmatic' clubs have also ended up getting relegated, due to as I said - stagnating, just as we did. So you are telling me Lowe was right to show no ambition after the Cup Final season?

 

I am as realistic as people go, and I like any sane individual know that we are never going to challenge for the top 4, but I don't see a regular top 8 finish and regular Europa League football being beyond the realms of possibility with a bit of ambition. Like I said, aim form stars and we may reach the moon - Cortese may be aiming for top 4 and I never think we'll get that, but fall a little bit short and that makes us a top 8-10 club with a small chance of flirting with the top 6 every once in a while.

[The Kraken]

And plenty of 'sensible, pragmatic' clubs have also ended up getting relegated, due to as I said - stagnating, just as we did. So you are telling me Lowe was right to show no ambition after the Cup Final season?

 

I am as realistic as people go, and I like any sane individual know that we are never going to challenge for the top 4, but I don't see a regular top 8 finish and regular Europa League football being beyond the realms of possibility with a bit of ambition. Like I said, aim form stars and we may reach the moon - Cortese may be aiming for top 4 and I never think we'll get that, but fall a little bit short and that makes us a top 8-10 club with a small chance of flirting with the top 6 every once in a while.

 

What is your definition of "ambition"? As in when we'd just finished 8th. When you say "ambtion", do you really mean "spending money we don't actually have"?

 

I'm just wondering who should have paid for this demonstration of ambition. Because the club couldn't afford to. Perhaps we should have followed the Pompey model?

[Sour Mash]

And plenty of 'sensible, pragmatic' clubs have also ended up getting relegated, due to as I said - stagnating, just as we did. So you are telling me Lowe was right to show no ambition after the Cup Final season?

 

I am as realistic as people go, and I like any sane individual know that we are never going to challenge for the top 4, but I don't see a regular top 8 finish and regular Europa League football being beyond the realms of possibility with a bit of ambition. Like I said, aim form stars and we may reach the moon - Cortese may be aiming for top 4 and I never think we'll get that, but fall a little bit short and that makes us a top 8-10 club with a small chance of flirting with the top 6 every once in a while.

I'm not sure if you get my point. There is very little correlation between a club "choosing" to be ambitious or "choosing" to stagnate and success on the field. Football is full of examples of both failing. By your logic we should aim to finish first every season, as if we fall short we'll just finish 3rd or 4th.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Jeez I just don't get the moaning Minnie's on here! Want to be in Prem - want he club to do well - then when the club sets forth on a clear path to sustained success they STILL moan. FFS! I suppose these people will not be happy until there's a fan on the Board?!?

[saints_is_the_south]

What is your definition of "ambition"? As in when we'd just finished 8th. When you say "ambtion", do you really mean "spending money we don't actually have"?

 

I'm just wondering who should have paid for this demonstration of ambition. Because the club couldn't afford to. Perhaps we should have followed the Pompey model?

 

So the club couldn't afford to stretch its wage cap just that little bit to attract better players than Neil McCann (shudders), Andreas Jakobsson (shudders again), Darren Kenton...etc

 

I'm not saying we should have gone and done a Pompey, paying players £100k a week. But a 30yr old Kevin Phillips had to take. 50% wage reduction to join us. Averaging over 30K every season since St Mary's opened on 2001 up until relegation, surely Lowe could have increased the wage budget and at least sustained us as a top half PL team no? That's not what I call doing a Pompey and spending money we didn't have.

[The Kraken]

So the club couldn't afford to stretch its wage cap just that little bit to attract better players than Neil McCann (shudders), Andreas Jakobsson (shudders again), Darren Kenton...etc

 

I'm not saying we should have gone and done a Pompey, paying players £100k a week. But a 30yr old Kevin Phillips had to take. 50% wage reduction to join us. Averaging over 30K every season since St Mary's opened on 2001 up until relegation, surely Lowe could have increased the wage budget and at least sustained us as a top half PL team no? That's not what I call doing a Pompey and spending money we didn't have.

 

I don't understand your definition of ambition. Apparently it is spending more than we actually did, even though we couldn't afford it, though not too much as that would be bad, but definitely more than we did, I'm just not sure exactly how much more.

 

Phillips' salary was offset by a huge signing on bonus by the way, so that we could maintain the wage structure. Was that lacking in ambition too?

 

Your argument makes no sense, as its basically "we should have spent more money that we didn't have, f*ck where the money came from". Bizarre.

[Doctoroncall]

Yes indeed.

 

The one phrase I think I said repeatedly to my two brothers and my friends I talk Saints with last Friday was "he could have been our Tony Pulis".

 

And that is all I wanted. Solid, regular mid table Prem football. A cup run. A euro adventure. A bumpy relegation scrap. Occasionally beating Arsenal. Youngsters coming through. Unearthing bargains from lower divisions and abroad. The reputation, well earned, of playing "lovely stuff". A manager, not glam enough to ever leave but too bloody good to ever fail.

 

I think we had that in the palm of our hand. Now I am not so sure.

 

This captures it for me. If MP can maximise the resources at the club perhaps we can do better than expected. Obviously as stated above that could mean MP getting better offers and the need to search for another manager... unless there is the internal succession planning for the coach but we know how that's turned out before.

[Sour Mash]

I don't understand your definition of ambition. Apparently it is spending more than we actually did, even though we couldn't afford it, though not too much as that would be bad, but definitely more than we did, I'm just not sure exactly how much more.

 

Phillips' salary was offset by a huge signing on bonus by the way, so that we could maintain the wage structure. Was that lacking in ambition too?

 

Your argument makes no sense, as its basically "we should have spent more money that we didn't have, f*ck where the money came from". Bizarre.

And for all of Lowe's many faults, he was ambitious and certainly wasn't one to "stagnate", see bringing in Redknapp and Woodward as an example of that.

[pap]

I'm somewhat heartened at how the last few posts of this thread (which have spoken utter sense) are, not yet at least, being disseminated into a ludicrous discussion as to how a 45K stadium is on the horizon and the avenue to our future.

 

If the self-titled intelligent posters could hold off for a bit more, that would be great.

 

I don't think we'll get a 45K stadium anytime soon, but I don't think a large stadium is impossible. It'll just take a while.

 

Look around at the best supported clubs in the world, those that pull huge international audiences. That's been achieved on the back of a lot of things - goodwill tours, transfers that you might term as having a merchandising or national interest angle. Mostly though, it's all based on success.

 

Now I'm not saying I necessarily want to attract Dutch and Scandinavian fans like da Reds do, but I do want us to fulfil our potential in our own city, and for the club to build on the respect it has for being a centre of footballing excellence. I know certain pundits are maximising the "neutrals will never support us again" article. They clearly don't remember the Dave Jones political football, where all the same things were said.

 

Minutiae of recruitment decisions aside, Cortese has been correct in the overall plan so far.

 

My honest opinion of NA is that I was never fully convinced of the "NA is a genius in the background" versus the cliche-replete press conferences that we got every week. The first acid test will involve Adkins ultimate destination. Champ or Prem. Personally, I don't think there is any Prem team that'll take a chance on him. I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

By almost any other standard of employment held by anyone on this board, NA got a great severence. He did not get acknowledgement from the club, but then at the same time, he did get acknowledgement from almost everybody else in football and Cortese had to absorb all the "mental chairman jibes".

 

Cortese isn't an idiot. If anyone thinks he is, I'll refer you to all the other sleeping giants that have managed similar bluster but none of the results. Notts County. Forest. Leicester. NA was clearly a top L1 manager and a great Champ manager (given the right resources). Never proved to be an effective Prem manager. Moreover, Nige knew his cards were up last season.

 

PS

...

On the scurrilous accusations toward the IT industry: yes, we get blaggers, but they are quickly sniffed out. The chasm between the stated abilities on their CVs and their actual abilities in practice becomes the stuff of legend. I genuinely welcome the influx of these chancers into our profession. They make us pros look so much better.

[CB Fry]

 

Cortese isn't an idiot. If anyone thinks he is, I'll refer you to all the other sleeping giants that have managed similar bluster but none of the results. Notts County. Forest. Leicester.

 

 

 

No mention of WBA, Stoke, Swansea which get the results but manage it with none of the bluster?

 

And when have Forest "blustered" anyway? Must have missed that.

 

And Leicester are on track to go up in year two of their "project". Not bad and I think counts as "results".

 

Notts County was L2 and silly from day one so a stupid comparison.

 

Anyone else on your list?

Edited 24 January, 2013 by CB Fry

[hutch]

It seems to me that all of the posts in here are based on the premise that the structure of football will continue in the future exactly as it is now, with discrete national leagues and 3-up 3-down from the PL every season.

 

I doubt that it will, and wonder whether the Don is making sure that we are where we need to be when moves are made to pull up drawbridges and limit the distrbution of the real income (TV not gates).

 

I can see PL clubs voting for 1-up 1-down or even a closed shop, and also europe-wide super league emerging. When not if IMO.

[docker-p]

It is truly amazing how a few simple fans on here believe in the hype put out by the clubs PR dept. And frankly a little embarrassing. Cortese's 'vision' and 'the next level' are my two favourite catch phrases. The the Dwarf has fooked up yet again sacking our most successful manager since WWII after back-to-back promotions and easing into premiership mid table, for a failed foreign coach. It's a pity we will never see out the journey Adkins was taking us on.

BTW. Espanyol have moved out of the relegation zone since MP was sacked. Fact.

[pap]

No mention of WBA, Stoke, Swansea which get the results but manage it with none of the bluster?

 

And when have Forest "blustered" anyway? Must have missed that.

 

And Leicester are on track to go up in year two of their "project". Not bad and I think counts as "results".

 

Notts County was L2 and silly from day one so a stupid comparison.

 

Anyone else on your list?

 

 

Swansea are a very well run team, specifically set up to survive the rigours of the managerial merry go round. If they win the League Cup final this year, they'll create a number of permanent Swansea fans, particularly around their own turf.

 

The fact that you consider a Stoke a success says it all really. No harm to the club or its fans, but that team is set up to be grindingly effective for Premier League survival, to the exclusion of all else. We've had to endure a fair bit of scrutiny after the NA sacking, but that'll die down after a few results. Those poor bastards still have to be Stoke.

 

Let's briefly touch on the rest of your post. Forest were billed as promotion candidates at the outset of last year. They ended up in a relegation battle. Leicester and Notts County were both mental enough to think Sven was the answer. Wrong.

 

More examples? How's about Huddersfield, the perennial bridesmaid during Lee Clark's reign, or Cardiff under Jones? How's about the League One champions? New stadium, nicely bankrolled - a much better team than us according to their fans.

 

All of this football lark seems to be a massive gamble, and in hindsight, that's exactly what it turns to be in a lot of cases. I don't get the sense that we're gambling. Some would immediately point to the MP appointment as evidence that we are, yet I'd disagree. To me, it looks like it could be a match made in heaven. We're a club that is known for producing young talent; MP brought 17 players through the youth side in four years at Espanyol. What part of this are people not getting?

[pap]

It is truly amazing how a few simple fans on here believe in the hype put out by the clubs PR dept. And frankly a little embarrassing. Cortese's 'vision' and 'the next level' are my two favourite catch phrases. The the Dwarf has fooked up yet again sacking our most successful manager since WWII after back-to-back promotions and easing into premiership mid table, for a failed foreign coach. It's a pity we will never see out the journey Adkins was taking us on.

BTW. Espanyol have moved out of the relegation zone since MP was sacked. Fact.

 

NA knew his job was done at the end of last season.

 

By the end of this season, we'll know whether this post is accurate.

[CB Fry]

Swansea are a very well run team, specifically set up to survive the rigours of the managerial merry go round. If they win the League Cup final this year, they'll create a number of permanent Swansea fans, particularly around their own turf.

 

The fact that you consider a Stoke a success says it all really. No harm to the club or its fans, but that team is set up to be grindingly effective for Premier League survival, to the exclusion of all else. We've had to endure a fair bit of scrutiny after the NA sacking, but that'll die down after a few results. Those poor bastards still have to be Stoke.

 

Let's briefly touch on the rest of your post. Forest were billed as promotion candidates at the outset of last year. They ended up in a relegation battle. Leicester and Notts County were both mental enough to think Sven was the answer. Wrong.

 

More examples? How's about Huddersfield, the perennial bridesmaid during Lee Clark's reign, or Cardiff under Jones? How's about the League One champions? New stadium, nicely bankrolled - a much better team than us according to their fans.

 

All of this football lark seems to be a massive gamble, and in hindsight, that's exactly what it turns to be in a lot of cases. I don't get the sense that we're gambling. Some would immediately point to the MP appointment as evidence that we are, yet I'd disagree. To me, it looks like it could be a match made in heaven. We're a club that is known for producing young talent; MP brought 17 players through the youth side in four years at Espanyol. What part of this are people not getting?

 

So your list is basically random clubs that haven't been promoted.

 

And Stoke who have performed very well in the Prem including a cup final and Europe who apparently are not a success. Lets hope your boy does so much better than rubbish old useless Stoke.

 

Great.

 

Well I am pleased with my contribution to this particular thread and I am going to leave it here as I am not going to pointlessly bicker with you.

 

Especially as your post here yet again positions yourself as "the great understander" of the project. Jolly well done you. Sheesh.

[trousers]

BTW. Espanyol have moved out of the relegation zone since MP was sacked. Fact.

 

Indeed....a good example of how sacking a manager can improve a team's performance....

 

(btw, officially he wasn't "sacked" by Espanyol per se, it was a mutually agreed termination of contract.....but that's probably propaganda too....)

[pap]

So your list is basically random clubs that haven't been promoted.

 

And Stoke who have performed very well in the Prem including a cup final and Europe who apparently are not a success. Lets hope your boy does so much better than rubbish old useless Stoke.

 

Great.

 

Well I am pleased with my contribution to this particular thread and I am going to leave it here as I am not going to pointlessly bicker with you.

 

Especially as your post here yet again positions yourself as "the great understander" of the project. Jolly well done you. Sheesh.

 

You are precious, CB Fry. You narrow the debate by responding to the one part of my large post you felt you might have a chance with, then take your ball away when even that is explained to you.

 

In a sense, you're right - there is no point debating with me, although not for the reasons you suggest. First, you're just not interested in any opinion supporting the new setup. More importantly, it's academic. MP will oversee more games for us, while Nige will get another job. Both sets of events are going to offer insight whether NA's sacking was an effective decision. So let's wait and see, shall we?

 

In the meantime, I suggest you temporarily support Stoke. You seem to love them, and I can't see them shipping their manager anytime soon.

[Frank's cousin]

Crikey, what's happened to Trousers?

 

Just put up one of the posts of the week

 

But seriously.

 

I am not in the least bit surprised. NC is a Banker, they invest money in Businesses that have a plan or a strategy and can show a Return. Yeah I know it is not the way Football should be run (Cloth Caps and standing in the rain waving rattles etc).

 

BUT NC got hold of a Business Plan. He did what any wise & successful Businessman would do - went out and sought advice and off he went.

 

He TOLD us what he intended to do on day one. So it has not been rocket science. It is clear that the players bought into it and of course Adkins bought into it.

 

The rest of us simply sit here and, along with the media keep saying "he must be mad". That is not how it is done.

 

Well, why the hell not? Arsenal did something similar but seem to have lost their way of late (perhaps they should have upgraded Wenger?) Swansea have done something similar, and to an extent Villa have tried something similar.

 

But, now here is the rub. THIS IS NOTHING NEW TO SAINTS.

 

It is, to all intents and purposes as if NC simply walked in to SMS, opened a filing cabinet and found Rupert Lowes "Business Plan". There really was nothing wrong with the idea Rupert had. The problem was simply the man himself.

 

Cortese (from what we have heard) does seem to talk to people in football, he does seem to listen (Mourinho telling him about Mo Po as an example) whereas Rupert went around "Knowing it all" (well he kept telling us he knew it all every week in the programme/media)

Also the other difference is NC has the money. (Even without Liebherr we have 60mil this year, a squad worth what we paid for it IF we get relegated and FOUR years of INCREASED parachute payments.

 

So it is no surprise to me

 

(Although I must admit to thinking he must be madder than a Boruc IF he really believes it can work)

 

But wow, what if it did?[/QUOTE]

 

I think in 6 words you sum up the crux of the matter - I dont believe anyone is fooled by the difficulty of what Cortese has set as a target - and there are countless examples in football of where 'plan's' have failed for us to digest - all of which leads some on here to determine he is 'mad', unrealistic' and other such rhetoric.

 

But I really do believe settling for our 'place' eventually sucks the excitement out of supporting - afterall what is the point of being loyal fans if we place a ceiling on our success? Its bad enough others in the game and the media always do this with patronizing platitudes of well done... 'for a club of their size', 'they did really well' in the usual 'plucky' language, yet for us to do this to ourselves seems odd.

 

Ultimately football is a sport and sport is about competition and competition is about winning and success. Its not about just taking part and settling for mediocrity - but about the pursuit of excellence. All Cortese has planned is that pursuit. He has not made any guarrantees, he does not have a formula that is guarranteed, he is not some visionary attempting innovation... its a calculated gamble in the pursuit of excellence - in the face of the 'established' naysayers.

 

Naturally I too am in the dark about whether we have the financial means to support that ambition. As previously stated, no one wants to see us follow such a plan if it means risking the financial stabilty of club and creating a legacy of debt. End of, and no argument form me, but if we assume the money is there, then what?

 

Some us us are thinking as DP said 'wow, what if it does' and that 'wishful thinking' that is criticised as naive by some, is merely a more positive reflection on a man who seems to be driven by that vision.

 

Some have argued that it might mean we end up with a plastic club, a loss of community spirit and identity? - possibly... but lets not forget we have been told its about developing our own as well and the investment in Staplewood suggests this is not just a platitude - again the key for me is not developing youth, but how we hang on to them for long enough so we see some benefit. That building from within, is a major part of maintaining a 'local' feel and culture to what we do, and who on here would not be proud if any success we did see would be based on a spine of home grown talent?

 

The naysayrs and **** takers may well turn out to be correct, in fact the odds are in their favour - but I would much rather be the type of person who has to admit I was wrong because its failed and we did not acheive the 'dream', than the type who has to admit they are wrong because we did - its about being positive in what we do. 'Its about being positive in the pursuit of excellence where 'failing' on the road is less shameful than never starting the journey.

Edited 24 January, 2013 by Frank's cousin

[Professor]

It is truly amazing how a few simple fans on here believe in the hype put out by the clubs PR dept. And frankly a little embarrassing. Cortese's 'vision' and 'the next level' are my two favourite catch phrases. The the Dwarf has fooked up yet again sacking our most successful manager since WWII after back-to-back promotions and easing into premiership mid table, for a failed foreign coach. It's a pity we will never see out the journey Adkins was taking us on.

BTW. Espanyol have moved out of the relegation zone since MP was sacked. Fact.

OR, I'll never get over Nigel.......sob, sob... please pass the white hankie...

[stevegrant]

So the club couldn't afford to stretch its wage cap just that little bit to attract better players than Neil McCann (shudders), Andreas Jakobsson (shudders again), Darren Kenton...etc

 

I'm not saying we should have gone and done a Pompey, paying players £100k a week. But a 30yr old Kevin Phillips had to take. 50% wage reduction to join us. Averaging over 30K every season since St Mary's opened on 2001 up until relegation, surely Lowe could have increased the wage budget and at least sustained us as a top half PL team no? That's not what I call doing a Pompey and spending money we didn't have.

We more or less broke even every year we were in the Premier League under Lowe. Some years we made a small profit, some years we made a small loss. If we added more expenditure on wages, we'd have been making a loss every year, with no guarantee of that funding hole being plugged - we were entirely self-sustainable back then.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and those three players you mention didn't work out, but they would have been thoroughly scouted and - as amazing as this notion sounds these days - approved by the manager at the time. I guess a case could be made for buying fewer players but increasing the quality (and, ergo, the salary) of those players, but there's no guarantee that they'll work out either.

 

Or of course we could have just not spent any money on the academy, not bothered paying our creditors, etc, just to be able to accommodate a larger wage bill...

[CB Fry]

You are precious, CB Fry. You narrow the debate by responding to the one part of my large post you felt you might have a chance with, then take your ball away when even that is explained to you.

 

In a sense, you're right - there is no point debating with me, although not for the reasons you suggest. First, you're just not interested in any opinion supporting the new setup. More importantly, it's academic. MP will oversee more games for us, while Nige will get another job. Both sets of events are going to offer insight whether NA's sacking was an effective decision. So let's wait and see, shall we?

 

In the meantime, I suggest you temporarily support Stoke. You seem to love them, and I can't see them shipping their manager anytime soon.

 

That's right I am narrowing the debate.

 

In other news your response to me is "you love Stoke go and support Stoke".

 

Such debating panache, oh great understander of the project.

[pap]

That's right I am narrowing the debate.

 

In other news your response to me is "you love Stoke go and support Stoke".

 

Such debating panache, oh great understander of the project.

 

You don't seem to love Saints very much at the moment.

[Sour Mash]

I don't think we'll get a 45K stadium anytime soon, but I don't think a large stadium is impossible. It'll just take a while.

 

Look around at the best supported clubs in the world, those that pull huge international audiences. That's been achieved on the back of a lot of things - goodwill tours, transfers that you might term as having a merchandising or national interest angle. Mostly though, it's all based on success.

 

Now I'm not saying I necessarily want to attract Dutch and Scandinavian fans like da Reds do, but I do want us to fulfil our potential in our own city, and for the club to build on the respect it has for being a centre of footballing excellence. I know certain pundits are maximising the "neutrals will never support us again" article. They clearly don't remember the Dave Jones political football, where all the same things were said.

 

Minutiae of recruitment decisions aside, Cortese has been correct in the overall plan so far.

 

My honest opinion of NA is that I was never fully convinced of the "NA is a genius in the background" versus the cliche-replete press conferences that we got every week. The first acid test will involve Adkins ultimate destination. Champ or Prem. Personally, I don't think there is any Prem team that'll take a chance on him. I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

By almost any other standard of employment held by anyone on this board, NA got a great severence. He did not get acknowledgement from the club, but then at the same time, he did get acknowledgement from almost everybody else in football and Cortese had to absorb all the "mental chairman jibes".

 

Cortese isn't an idiot. If anyone thinks he is, I'll refer you to all the other sleeping giants that have managed similar bluster but none of the results. Notts County. Forest. Leicester. NA was clearly a top L1 manager and a great Champ manager (given the right resources). Never proved to be an effective Prem manager. Moreover, Nige knew his cards were up last season.

 

PS

...

On the scurrilous accusations toward the IT industry: yes, we get blaggers, but they are quickly sniffed out. The chasm between the stated abilities on their CVs and their actual abilities in practice becomes the stuff of legend. I genuinely welcome the influx of these chancers into our profession. They make us pros look so much better.

I think you missed the point. No-one has ever said that Adkins is a genius.

[pap]

Didn't miss a point. Was giving my honest opinion on NA so people know where I stand.

[CB Fry]

You don't seem to love Saints very much at the moment.

 

You seem to think some Italian bloke is Saints. He isn't.

[Junior Mullet]

Life is too short to over-analyse. We'll all be dead soon. Enjoy the ride IMHO of course.

[pap]

You seem to think some Italian bloke is Saints. He isn't.

 

So are you going to suspend your support for the club while he remains in charge?

[CB Fry]

So are you going to suspend your support for the club while he remains in charge?

 

 

 

No, why on earth should I do that.

 

A masterclass in "narrowing the debate" though. Well done.

[shurlock]

Managers come and go like the tide, and its probably not worth getting overexcited about it. But looking beyond todays headlines to the longer term strategy the club is pursuing, this grand plan of Nicola Cortese's to spend a fortune of our late owners money turning what is in truth a middle sized regional club into a top ten - top five maybe - force in the Premier League is as mad as a box of frogs.

 

Even if we spent enough Liebherr cash to get up to those heady heights, how on earth can a club of this modest size sustain that position in the long term? Expanding St Marys, or a new 45,000 seat stadium, might I suppose give us the income required to compete with the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool or Spurs etc on a more level playing field, but those clubs have massive nationwide/international support and the evidence of my eyes tells me we can't even sell out every PL fixture as of now. So where are these extra fans coming from? You could attract significantly more support from our (theoretically sizable) catchment area if you cut the prices perhaps - but the trouble with that is that it just destroys the economic case for building a bigger stadium in the first place.

 

I'm all in favour of making this club a established Premier League member for years/decades to come, that's not a unreasonable ambition in my view. But if we push the boat out too far chasing one egotist's dream of European Football then I've got a horrible feeling it's all going to end in tears one day.

 

Nationwide/international support isn't passed on through DNA - its fickle, its easily won (and lost). Don't need to be a sherlock to realise that success and having 'sexy' players are the best guarantee of support which is a virtuous circle.

Obviously it won't happen if you do a Blackburn or Skates -and are flash in the pans -successful one season and gone the next (which assumes sound financial planning and risk management). And you have to ask yourself whether you want to support a club followed by plastics. But that's not your argument here - its whether it can be done. I've watched Chelsea go from nobodies in China (which was the case in the late 90s) to everyone's favourite team today, cemented by annual tours

It can be done if you have the finances and that's down to brute luck -not history, catchment areas or anything else.

[Charlie Wayman]

I don't think he's "up to" anything. He's running a football club - a business - and he's making what he feels are the correct business decisions to achieve both the businesses short term objectives and the longer term vision that has been set for the club. It is assumed by many that his style is autocratic and therefore he is unaccountable... don't you believe it, if the business is seen to be faltering he will be out just as easily as other members of the management team.

 

He had clearly lost faith in Adkins to help him attain the shorter term objectives so in that situation he either backs his hunches and gets rid of the man or goes soft and sentimental and fails along with Adkins. When it comes to self preservation nobody does soft and sentimental and certainly not Saints' razor sharp CEO.

 

Don't believe 10% of the nonsense written about Mr Cortese, everyone has their own agenda and s**t-stirring is the weapon of choice for story starved hacks who hate secrecy more than anything. The downside is if the club say nothing at all to the press it invites opprobrium which is exactly where we are.

 

You may not like the way he does things chaps but I'll bet my dog's supper you'll love the results he achieves.

[shurlock]

Yes indeed.

 

The one phrase I think I said repeatedly to my two brothers and my friends I talk Saints with last Friday was "he could have been our Tony Pulis".

 

And that is all I wanted. Solid, regular mid table Prem football. A cup run. A euro adventure. A bumpy relegation scrap. Occasionally beating Arsenal. Youngsters coming through. Unearthing bargains from lower divisions and abroad. The reputation, well earned, of playing "lovely stuff". A manager, not glam enough to ever leave but too bloody good to ever fail.

 

I think we had that in the palm of our hand. Now I am not so sure.

 

And they play the 'Stoke Way' (spent a **** load doing so mind you). Appetising stuff...

[pap]

No, why on earth should I do that.

 

A masterclass in "narrowing the debate" though. Well done.

 

I just wanted to know how far you were willing to take your Cortese beef.

 

From the sounds of it, seems like you'll just fall in line with everyone else.

[Sour Mash]

Nationwide/international support isn't passed on through DNA - its fickle, its easily won (and lost). Don't need to be a sherlock to realise that success and having 'sexy' players are the best guarantee of support which is a virtuous circle.

Obviously it won't happen if you do a Blackburn or Skates -and are flash in the pans -successful one season and gone the next (which assumes sound financial planning and risk management). And you have to ask yourself whether you want to support a club followed by plastics. But that's not your argument here - its whether it can be done. I've watched Chelsea go from nobodies in China (which was the case in the late 90s) to everyone's favourite team today, cemented by annual tours

It can be done if you have the finances and that's down to brute luck -not history, catchment areas or anything else.

You sort of contradict yourself though. Its not easily won or lost. Its why Liverpool still have massess that travel from London and Norway every home game. Why Man Utd still had mass support from across the country in the 70s. I'm sure Chelsea's worldwide support has grown massively in the last 10 years, but look what they've had to do to get that. Edited 24 January, 2013 by Sour Mash

[SaintRichmond]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11096/8428233/Saints-masterplan

 

Of course, it may just be that newspapers need to 'evolve' their articles if they want to keep something in the news for more than a few days, but could it also be that now the dust is beginning to settle most people are coming round to the idea that there may be some logic to removing Adkins?

 

 

Cortese wants Qualification for a Euro place THIS SEASON ...... That's it.... End of .... Simples

[The Kraken]

Cortese wants Qualification for a Euro place THIS SEASON ...... That's it.... End of .... Simples

 

Well he's gonna be pretty f*cking disappointed come May, then.

[Thedelldays]

Well he's gonna be pretty f*cking disappointed come May, then.

 

Fair play league could be an option lol

[pap]

Cortese wants Qualification for a Euro place THIS SEASON ...... That's it.... End of .... Simples

 

Does that article say that?

 

Where exactly?

[SaintRichmond]

Well he's gonna be pretty f*cking disappointed come May, then.

 

 

You know what ?? I honestly wouldn't bet against it

[The Kraken]

You know what ?? I honestly wouldn't bet against it

 

I would happily take that bet.

[SaintRichmond]

Does that article say that?

 

Where exactly?

 

 

I wasn't referring to any article .... just my OPINION as to what I think Cortese's objectives are for THIS season.

 

IMHO, If Cortese just wanted Consolidation, then he MAY have stuck with Adkins, and I think Adkins would have kept us in the Prem.

 

But, (also IMHO), Cortese thinks MP can get us higher (in a short space of time)

 

IMHO, In my OPINION, Cortese wants European Qualification THIS season.

 

And "Time" will tell .... it is only my OPINION

[pap]

I wasn't referring to any article .... just my OPINION as to what I think Cortese's objectives are for THIS season.

 

IMHO, If Cortese just wanted Consolidation, then he MAY have stuck with Adkins, and I think Adkins would have kept us in the Prem.

 

But, (also IMHO), Cortese thinks MP can get us higher (in a short space of time)

 

IMHO, In my OPINION, Cortese wants European Qualification THIS season.

 

And "Time" will tell .... it is only my OPINION

 

I think exit velocity is the key aim here. More than anything else, we need to be billed as a better team next year. Don't think we'll make Europe this year, but happy to be proven wrong.

[Cabrone]

Cortese wants Qualification for a Euro place THIS SEASON ...... That's it.... End of .... Simples

 

Yeah, easy.

 

Making up 16 points on the top 5 in 15 games should be a doddle.

 

 

The Don is a bit bonkers but I have to admit his crazy ambition is also a bit exciting. I've never seen anything like it at this club.

 

Just hope we don't blow up somewhere down the line like the mob down the coast.

[shurlock]

You sort of contradict yourself though. Its not easily won or lost. Its why Liverpool still have massess that travel from London and Norway every home game. Why Man Utd still has mass support from across the country in the 70s. I'm sure Chelsea's worldwide support has grown massively in the last 10 years, but look what they've had to do to get that.

 

Accept Man U and Liverpool's support dates back years, though worth asking how much that support has expanded since the mid-90s. Pretty sure United's support is several times greater than it was in the 70s and 80s -and while that new support is necessarily the type that goes home and away (though some is), it does generate revenue which is frankly what clubs care about and ultimately funds its ambitions.

Was looking at old photos of a school trip to HMS Victory (early 90s) the other day and everyone was in their football shirts still surprised by how few united shirts there were - the majority were Liverpool (and they weren't 'plastics' in today's Sky era sense). Doubt that would still be the case today. Even hearing a 17 year old AOC spout off about how he's a Chelsea fan and wanted play against his idol Drogba -far from Abramovic's first signing- reminds you how contingent support is.

So granted some clubs have foundations built over years that we can never hope to reproduce; but I wouldnt overstate their importance either.

[Turkish]

Accept Man U and Liverpool's support dates back years, though worth asking how much that support has expanded since the mid-90s. Pretty sure United's support is several times greater than it was in the 70s and 80s -and while that new support is necessarily the type that goes home and away (though some is), it does generate revenue which is frankly what clubs care about and ultimately funds its ambitions.

Was looking at old photos of a school trip to HMS Victory (early 90s) the other day and everyone was in their football shirts still surprised by how few united shirts there were - the majority were Liverpool (and they weren't 'plastics' in today's Sky era sense). Doubt that would still be the case today. Even hearing a 17 year old AOC spout off about how he's a Chelsea fan and wanted play against his idol Drogba -far from Abramovic's first signing- reminds you how contingent support is.

So granted some clubs have foundations built over years that we can never hope to reproduce; but I wouldnt overstate their importance either.

 

The majority of non Saints fans when i was at School in the 80's and early 90's were Liverpool. Liverpool were the top team in the 80's. Kids will follow the top teams or their local one. Not difficult really is it.

[pap]

The majority of non Saints fans when i was at School in the 80's and early 90's were Liverpool. Liverpool were the top team in the 80's. Kids will follow the top teams or their local one. Not difficult really is it.

 

Same. I think we're making similar points but from different angles.

 

It's a real chicken and egg situation for me. We need a broad base of support to sustainably finance a top team, yet we need a top team to get a broad base of support!

 

Undeniably NA's sacking will be a black mark on us for some, although I don't think we'll lose the neutrals, as many pundits have suggested. Even if we do, how do they help us to become a top team?

 

I have to admit, I want a lot more than CB Fry from this Saints setup, not because I feel I'm owed it, but because the potential is actually there.