PM to give the Europe vote

[hypochondriac]

Out

 

I will wait to see what we can renegotiate before committing either way. I'm leaning towards out though at the moment.

[hypochondriac]

All the parties have promised a referendum and not delivered, why is this any different?

 

It's just the Tories way of getting re-elected.

 

He has said it in public in a high profile speech. If they get in he will give the vote but only when he is sure he will get the answer he wants (to stay in)

[aintforever]

I think we should leave. Letting all these Eastern Europeans in is just a race to the bottom in terms of wages and standard of living.

[bridge too far]

I think we should leave. Letting all these Eastern Europeans in is just a race to the bottom in terms of wages and standard of living.

 

Will that mean all those ex pats having to come home from France and Spain? Most of them are old(ish) so will cost our health service more

[aintforever]

Will that mean all those ex pats having to come home from France and Spain? Most of them are old(ish) so will cost our health service more

 

No, they can stay there if spain wants them to. Which they probably do.

[bridge too far]

No, they can stay there if spain wants them to. Which they probably do.

 

I think they cost the Spanish health service quite a lot

[buctootim]

Its wrong to think its just Britain which is disenchanted. Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands are all having major doubts

[aintforever]

I think they cost the Spanish health service quite a lot

 

Well if they are a drain on their economy they could send them back, it should be up to Spain, just like it should be up to us.

 

Allowing free movement from places like Romania is just going to make things worse, we will just be dragging us down to their standard of living.

[Barry Sanchez]

I think they cost the Spanish health service quite a lot

 

Do they?

[solentstars]

Do they?

 

I believe there 350000 in spain alone. So I suppose if we leave I expect we will have to pay for health care if we visit Europe on holiday or work.all this to cover up the splits in tory party and there fight with ukip for their core voters.

 

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[Whitey Grandad]

I'm not sure i trust the population of this country to make a balanced decision, they're easily swayed by tabloid headlines of immigrants, free houses etc. rather than the needs of the business community. Seeing as people tend to get introspective and right wing as they get older maybe its time to remove the vote from the over 60's?

 

I agree on the first part but not on the second. Out of Europe there is no future for us. I despair of all the little Englanders.

[Barry Sanchez]

It obvious why big business wants open borders and freedom of movement for the poorer nations but they wont admit it its about cheaper and a more flexible (non unionised) workforce, race to the bottom for the working man hence an awful lot of Unions are very apprehensive about further European intergration, race to the bottom?

They only want it as it benefits them.

[Barry Sanchez]

I believe there 350000 in spain alone. So I suppose if we leave I expect we will have to pay for health care if we visit Europe on holiday or work.all this to cover up the splits in tory party and there fight with ukip for their core voters.

 

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Its less than a Million who permanently live there, many who have bought a house orrun a business so its very different, the UK will also pay some sort of recompense to Spain as well I am sure for medical needs.

The UK gives an awful lot to the Spanish economy, Eastern Europe gives cheap labour.

[pap]

Its wrong to think its just Britain which is disenchanted. Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands are all having major doubts

 

Across the board or confined to nationalists?

[Barry Sanchez]

Across the board or confined to nationalists?

 

Why do you say Nationlists? Many of the left myself included are scepitcal of Europe, its not solely the right who monopolize questions upon Europe?

[scotty]

I think they cost the Spanish health service quite a lot

 

They probably don't. My brother-in-law has been forced to move back to the UK precisely because of this, he had been resident in Spain for about 6 years, had a heart attack, and discovered the unalloyed joys of the Spanish health "service". I saw it for myself, and will never criticise the NHS again.

[solentstars]

Its less than a Million who permanently live there, many who have bought a house orrun a business so its very different, the UK will also pay some sort of recompense to Spain as well I am sure for medical needs.

The UK gives an awful lot to the Spanish economy, Eastern Europe gives cheap labour.

 

Your right but when we joined the eec has it was called then.we were a poor country and cheap labour hence why a lot of my mates worked in germany and some have not come back.so I suppose we undercut the Germans in those days.

 

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[pap]

Why do you say Nationlists? Many of the left myself included are scepitcal of Europe, its not solely the right who monopolize questions upon Europe?

 

I'm asking the question for precisely that reason.

[Barry Sanchez]

I'm asking the question for precisely that reason.

You stated Nationalists, why not patriots? Nationalism in this Country has been a word wrongly dirtied, in irony the newer Eastern European Countries are ardent Nationalists and the Liberals/business community love them. Edited 23 January, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[scotty]

Its a vaguer promise than some are suggesting, anyway. If the conservatives are elected next time, (on their own, not as part of a coalition,) and after they have renegotiated our EU position, (how likely is that,) they will in any case campaign for the status quo anyway, according to Cameron. Which means that all three major parties will be campaigning on the same side. I suppose the implied threat might just strengthen Cameron's hand when trying to renegotiate with the EU, but they'll almost certainly see straight through that and face him down, especially now that the yanks have stuck their oar in and told us to behave.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Why do you say Nationlists? Many of the left myself included are scepitcal of Europe, its not solely the right who monopolize questions upon Europe?

 

I'm not sure he identified nationalists as right-wingers only.

[Barry Sanchez]

I'm not suggesting anything to be fair just want to know what the confined to nationalists meant, or the usage of it.

[bridge too far]

They probably don't. My brother-in-law has been forced to move back to the UK precisely because of this, he had been resident in Spain for about 6 years, had a heart attack, and discovered the unalloyed joys of the Spanish health "service". I saw it for myself, and will never criticise the NHS again.

 

Conversely, a friend of mine, who has been a (part time for tax reasons) but long term resident of Spain had fantastic treatment when he had his heart attack. The only downside was that an interpreter had to be present at all times because my friend doesn't speak Spanish.

[Thedelldays]

BTF, if Spain want far greater controls on who they let in, then that is up to them

 

As far as I am concerned, I can't see how our NHS and jobs market.... Let alone housing can cope with the country growing by 4m people very decade from the open door policy

[bridge too far]

BTF, if Spain want far greater controls on who they let in, then that is up to them

As far as I am concerned, I can't see how our NHS and jobs market.... Let alone housing can cope with the country growing by 4m people very decade from the open door policy

 

Err - no it isn't.

 

I can't see how the NHS and jobs market would have coped WITHOUT migrants from Europe TBH

[Thedelldays]

Err - no it isn't.

 

I can't see how the NHS and jobs market would have coped WITHOUT migrants from Europe TBH

 

Well, it's up to them if they want to make it up to them.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Err - no it isn't.

 

I can't see how the NHS and jobs market would have coped WITHOUT migrants from Europe TBH

 

Perhaps the culture of behefit dependency would have been ended and the millions who can't be arsed would have had to. It would also have put upward pressures on wages which is a good thing.

[pap]

You stated Nationalists, why not patriots? Nationalism in this Country has been a word wrongly dirtied, in irony the newer Eastern European Countries are ardent Nationalists and the Liberals/business community love them.

 

So which Nationalist parties do you like then, Bazza?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Will that mean all those ex pats having to come home from France and Spain? Most of them are old(ish) so will cost our health service more

 

Actually I think that they struggle to get treatment here if they have moved over there lock stock and barrell

[Barry Sanchez]

I dont like any, but can respect some.

[pap]

I dont like any, but can respect some.

 

Which do you respect, and why?

[Barry Sanchez]

I immensely dislike the IRA but also respect them , the ANC as well, the extreme fascist left have made it a dirty word when it should not be so, they are worse than the extreme right to be honest, the sandal wearing intergrators and yet they live so far away from Blackburn, Oldham, and Rochdale but still feel the need to comment and pour scorn on the working mans incorrect vere to the right.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

the extreme fascist left? not sure I've heard of that one before.

[pap]

I immensely dislike the IRA but also respect them , the ANC as well, the extreme fascist left have made it a dirty word when it should not be so, they are worse than the extreme right to be honest, the sandal wearing intergrators and yet they live so far away from Blackburn, Oldham, and Rochdale but still feel the need to comment and pour scorn on the working mans incorrect vere to the right.

 

Do you like the EDL?

[Barry Sanchez]

Do you like the EDL?

 

No why, do you?

[Barry Sanchez]

the extreme fascist left? not sure I've heard of that one before.

They are just as intolerant as the right but try and try a moral high ground whist still ****ing on the working man, Clegg and his ****ty little Liberals.

[pap]

No why, do you?

 

Nope. Got no time for nationalism at all.

 

Paxman had the right of it in his book The English, in which he asserts that a defining characteristic of English people is that they are not that arsed about their Englishness, especially compared with the likes of France or the US who seep their kids in nationalist sentiment from primary school.

 

We've always had people coming here and we've looked outward since the 16th century. Nationalism doesn't square with what we're about.

 

That said, there is a case to be made for curtailing immigration on a practical basis alone.

[scotty]

Conversely, a friend of mine, who has been a (part time for tax reasons) but long term resident of Spain had fantastic treatment when he had his heart attack. The only downside was that an interpreter had to be present at all times because my friend doesn't speak Spanish.

 

If you have plenty of family or friends there, the healthcare is fine. My brother in law has only a disabled wife, and (in Malaga at least) the system does not involve feeding or washing. Family are expected to do that for you, and if they dont, nobody will. Can you imagine the uproar if that happened here?

[Barry Sanchez]

Nope. Got no time for nationalism at all.

 

Paxman had the right of it in his book The English, in which he asserts that a defining characteristic of English people is that they are not that arsed about their Englishness, especially compared with the likes of France or the US who seep their kids in nationalist sentiment from primary school.

 

We've always had people coming here and we've looked outward since the 16th century. Nationalism doesn't square with what we're about.

 

That said, there is a case to be made for curtailing immigration on a practical basis alone.

 

Something to do with their republican histories I would say, long live the Queen?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

They are just as intolerant as the right but try and try a moral high ground whist still ****ing on the working man, Clegg and his ****ty little Liberals.

 

Sorry bit confused - Clegg et al are the extreme fascist left?

[Barry Sanchez]

Sorry bit confused - Clegg et al are the extreme fascist left?

The sandal wearing do gooders who love multiculturalism and yet live in prosperous surroundings and having been brought up in a sliver spoon enviroment have never seen the arse end of these tragic places I have mentioned. They are quick to pour scorn on these places as far right havens but have not asked themselves why, or only around election time, the Labour party in these places as well only come out when a vote is needed, the people who suffer are the ones who live there, both sides of the community, all for the sake of a social experiment that the working working masses had to take part in and not the chattering classes.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

The sandal wearing do gooders who love multiculturalism and yet live in prosperous surroundings and having been brought up in a sliver spoon enviroment have never seen the arse end of these tragic places I have mentioned. They are quick to pour scorn on these places as far right havens but have not asked themselves why, or only around election time, the Labour party in these places as well only come out when a vote is needed, the people who suffer are the ones who live there, both sides of the community, all for the sake of a social experiment that the working working masses had to take part in and not the chattering classes.

 

OK, I'm forming a picture of who you mean just think your description of them as "extreme fascist left" is rediculous.

 

I'm surprised you've not lambasted the "liberal elite" - then your mask would've truly slipped.

[Barry Sanchez]

Why would of my mask slipped? I have nothing to hide, the Liberal elite, well they all are that now are they not? How many PPE graduates do we have now in the echelons of power who have in fact done nothing other than been voted in by the masses of safe seats?

[hypochondriac]

Is there anyone on this board who DOESN'T think that Barry Sanchez is dune?

[Barry Sanchez]

Is there anyone on this board who DOESN'T think that Barry Sanchez is dune?

 

God knows but I am not dune, pap believes I lives somewhere other than Liverpool so God knows.

[solentstars]

The sandal wearing do gooders who love multiculturalism and yet live in prosperous surroundings and having been brought up in a sliver spoon enviroment have never seen the arse end of these tragic places I have mentioned. They are quick to pour scorn on these places as far right havens but have not asked themselves why, or only around election time, the Labour party in these places as well only come out when a vote is needed, the people who suffer are the ones who nd i was live there, both sides of the community, all for the sake of a social experiment that the working working masses had to take part in and not the chattering classes.

wow sounds like the politics of the far right the edl and bnp to me and i come from a working class background.i heard the same rubbish in the 1970s from the nat front nazi lovers i i love people who are proud of our countryand love for the country but hate facist scum and the fact they use so called patroitism sites always have nazi signs all over them,.

[Barry Sanchez]

You have not been to Blackburn and the divided places mentioned then? Trevor Phillips acknowledged multiculturalism has failed, thats not a far right thing to say, I have been in the Labour party for 20 odd years, why does that sound like I am advocating the far right? I hate them and their division, the left have also divided with their attempt at the multiculturalism experiment and the masses have paid the price as they always do.

 

There is nothing wrong in that but there is something wholly wrong in your poorly thought out rebuttal.

[pap]

You have not been to Blackburn and the divided places mentioned then? Trevor Phillips acknowledged multiculturalism has failed, thats not a far right thing to say, I have been in the Labour party for 20 odd years, why does that sound like I am advocating the far right? I hate them and their division, the left have also divided with their attempt at the multiculturalism experiment and the masses have paid the price as they always do.

 

There is nothing wrong in that but there is something wholly wrong in your poorly thought out rebuttal.

 

 

You seem to have some strong opinions on this, Bazza. You've obviously thought it through. How would you solve the acknowledged crisis of multiculturalism in the UK?

[pap]

Is there anyone on this board who DOESN'T think that Barry Sanchez is dune?

 

I just want a bit of credit for sniffing him out early when it all comes out in the wash.

[Barry Sanchez]

You seem to have some strong opinions on this, Bazza. You've obviously thought it through. How would you solve the acknowledged crisis of multiculturalism in the UK?

 

Not really pap, I have a view thats all, its tickles me as soon as people (the ignorant or insane left) dont like what they read they sling our the r word or bnp etc etc, I am nothing of the sort and dislike them them as much as extreme views and politics of the left.

 

Mulitculturalism has been an abject social experiment to which the extremely poor were subjected to by the social elite (Liberal in many ways) and the chattering classes, the difference of living down a Country lane in Surrey with a well skilled multicultural society is completely different to one of overcrowding, unemployment, poor skills and repeated messages and promises forgotton by Governments (Labour and tory) in numerous Northern mill towns.

 

The solution? There is not a solution now bar tolerance and more moderation on immigration from societies that do not resemble ours or are unwilling to live in an open society where everybody is equal (or we should strive to be).

 

The fact we want to remain in a Europe thats far more right wing in its outlook than ours is ironic and amusing to say the least, people arguing for (by the way I have not even said what I would vote merely it would be democratic to give the people the vote and thats a good thing) us to stay in should look at the far right parties in Greece, Poland, Austria, Sweden, Denmark and others, is this really a united Europe or simply a publicity stunt and exercise for the Germans and French?