Thedelldays Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Hurrah Lets hope it actually happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Let me guess... After the general election, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Let me guess... After the general election, right? Surely he wouldn't be so disingenuous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Surely he wouldn't be so disingenuous It is merely out of respect for their coalition partners that they don't have the question now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Should make the general election in 2015 a little more interesting. What does Milliband do? Offer a referendum too or tell the electorate he doesn't trust them to decide the country's future in Europe? Smart manoeuvre by Cameron IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Should make the general election in 2015 a little more interesting. What does Milliband do? Offer a referendum too or tell the electorate he doesn't trust them to decide the country's future in Europe? Smart manoeuvre by Cameron IMO. Undoubtedly. Kills the UKIP split too. They will try and wriggle out of it afterward though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Undoubtedly. Kills the UKIP split too. They will try and wriggle out of it afterward though. Might this also be some kind of pre-emptive move to 'destable' the Scottish independence referendum? Haven't thought through in what way but just got a hunch that the line will be: "stick with the UK and you get a vote on EU membership, separate from the UK and you won't". Dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 How will this go down with the tory doners though as I thought business (CBI, etc) who provide most of the tory partys finance were in favour of us staying in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 (edited) Should make the general election in 2015 a little more interesting. What does Milliband do? Offer a referendum too or tell the electorate he doesn't trust them to decide the country's future in Europe? Smart manoeuvre by Cameron IMO. It's a very smart move by Cameron. He's made it about choice which is very difficult for the other parties to portray as a negative. What Milliband has to do now is 'de-position' Cameron. He, and the wider Labour party have to en mass repeat time and again that Cameron wants to leave Europe. They have to force Cameron to say that he wants to stay in. They have to get Cameron to make a commitment before he's renegotiated our relationship. They have to force some backtracking and infighting. I doubt they'll pull it off. It's a smart move all round. Edited 23 January, 2013 by saintbletch Smart move not smart love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Hmm. I'm nervous that people won't vote no since an in out vote is too drastic. They will then use the lack of a no vote to justify even closer ties to Europe. I want us to stay in the EU but greatly change our relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 How will this go down with the tory doners though as I thought business (CBI, etc) who provide most of the tory partys finance were in favour of us staying in? He's offering a choice, not dictating that we pull out. If the 'business community' is serious about maintaining or increasing ties with Europe then they can campaign and convince the public why that should be. If they fail to go that then they've only themselves to blame. #democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooney Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Trouble is, one cannot believe him. He said he would have a referendum on Europe in this Parliment before the last General Election. Said the same about a free vote in Parliament on Fox Hunting and culling badgers . How many U-turns to date--36 is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 23 January, 2013 Author Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Trouble is, one cannot believe him. He said he would have a referendum on Europe in this Parliment before the last General Election. Said the same about a free vote in Parliament on Fox Hunting and culling badgers . How many U-turns to date--36 is it? Think the libdems stop some of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Trouble is, one cannot believe him. He said he would have a referendum on Europe in this Parliment before the last General Election. Said the same about a free vote in Parliament on Fox Hunting and culling badgers . How many U-turns to date--36 is it? Did he commit to those votes or cite them as aspirational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Might this also be some kind of pre-emptive move to 'destable' the Scottish independence referendum? Haven't thought through in what way but just got a hunch that the line will be: "stick with the UK and you get a vote on EU membership, separate from the UK and you won't". Dunno. I cited a likely win in the Scottish independence referendum as Dave's potential Falklands moment. Whatever else I find distasteful about this government, can't accuse them of lacking balls on big political gambles. Labour have to offer parity on this or they'll be destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Possibly a smart move with regard to domestic politics but this whole affair just makes me even more apathetic about UK politics. Cameron has only been plugging this anti-EU stance because his poll-rating were so low, it's just blatant electioneering and nothing to do with what's "best for Britain". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Hmm. I'm nervous that people won't vote no since an in out vote is too drastic. They will then use the lack of a no vote to justify even closer ties to Europe. I want us to stay in the EU but greatly change our relationship. what makes you think the rest of the EU will play ball? Cameron has made us even more unpopular. Most of the Eu is more concerned with sorting out the Euro crisis, the UK's latest paddy about Europe is an irritating distraction for them. Cameron may be able to outwit Clegg and Milliband but his chances of outwitting Merkel are less obvious. I'm guessing she and the rest of the EU may just tell him to put up or shut up - your either in the EU the same as everyone else or you're out. Which way would callmeDave vote in that scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Possibly a smart move with regard to domestic politics but this whole affair just makes me even more apathetic about UK politics. Cameron has only been plugging this anti-EU stance because his poll-rating were so low, it's just blatant electioneering and nothing to do with what's "best for Britain". If the general public don't like it they can tell Cameron where to stick his "electioneering" in May 2015... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 If the general public don't like it they can tell Cameron where to stick his "electioneering" in May 2015... I have absolutely no doubt that they will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 23 January, 2013 Author Share Posted 23 January, 2013 what makes you think the rest of the EU will play ball? Cameron has made us even more unpopular. Most of the Eu is more concerned with sorting out the Euro crisis, the UK's latest paddy about Europe is an irritating distraction for them. Cameron may be able to outwit Clegg and Milliband but his chances of outwitting Merkel are less obvious. I'm guessing she and the rest of the EU may just tell him to put up or shut up - your either in the EU the same as everyone else or you're out. Which way would callmeDave vote in that scenario? You say irritating distraction... I don't buy that With a new front of Islamic extremists coming up on our door step, the Yanks will be less likely to step in like we have already seen.... It will be us (Europe) to deal with Believe it or, even with our ever shrinking armed forces, we still hold major capability to deploy and project force... Sometimes that is needed. The French can too But with Germany at the heart of it all. They simply will not want to be seen doing this. They do not have the appetite to get involved in other nations (don't exactly have a good history in this) That will leave France as the EUs pittbull. They will desperately want us onside for that IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 23 January, 2013 Author Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I have absolutely no doubt that they will Indeed. If he wins though........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottery st mary Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 There will NOT be a vote... Sawce ..is my mate in the pub... He knows everything about Politics.. He states... Politians , Lawyers , Astronauts (FOR YOU Pap) Old Bill and Posters on that Saints web forum..Can't believe a word any of them say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channon's Windmill Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I dont know enough about politics and europe as i probably should. Can someone who does outline the pros and cons of being in or out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 About ****ing time. We have been spunking money on this German/French project for about thirty years too long. One of the big reasons I left for Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Kucho Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Still dont believe Cameron, he will say anything to get elected. Will still be voting UKIP at the next election, not only because they will give us a vote on Europe, but also because I am sick of these career politicians and want to see people with experience of working in the private sector in governement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 what makes you think the rest of the EU will play ball? Cameron has made us even more unpopular. Most of the Eu is more concerned with sorting out the Euro crisis, the UK's latest paddy about Europe is an irritating distraction for them. Cameron may be able to outwit Clegg and Milliband but his chances of outwitting Merkel are less obvious. I'm guessing she and the rest of the EU may just tell him to put up or shut up - your either in the EU the same as everyone else or you're out. Which way would callmeDave vote in that scenario? I don't think the EU will play ball necessarily. The Euro crisis is of their own making so it's entirely their fault for signing up to the ridiculous Euro project in the first place. If we have no chance of claiming anything back and renegotiating then we will have no choice but to leave IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 If the general public don't like it they can tell Cameron where to stick his "electioneering" in May 2015... I have every confidence in the wisdom of the Great British Public just as long as anyone who voted for a performing dog to win BGT is disenfranchised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I don't think the EU will play ball necessarily. The Euro crisis is of their own making so it's entirely their fault for signing up to the ridiculous Euro project in the first place. If we have no chance of claiming anything back and renegotiating then we will have no choice but to leave IMO. Agree its all about the battle for the soul of the Tory party and trying to stop ukip pinching all their anti EU supporters who are mainly consertives and a majority over 50s according to the latest breakdown on membership. Labour had the same problem in the 1970s when the far left wanted us out the EU . Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I dont know enough about politics and europe as i probably should. Can someone who does outline the pros and cons of being in or out? Your right and I expect most people are like that. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I'll be voting to stay in as the opportunity to easily study & work in Europe is important for my family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Possibly a smart move with regard to domestic politics but this whole affair just makes me even more apathetic about UK politics. Cameron has only been plugging this anti-EU stance because his poll-rating were so low, it's just blatant electioneering and nothing to do with what's "best for Britain". Agree Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Still dont believe Cameron, he will say anything to get elected. As apposed to any other other politician? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottery st mary Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 The possible referendum has now been moved to 2017/18:rolleyes: Apparently more time to formulate the YES or NO sentence.....and to get the spellin of YES and NO correct:D and To produce YES and NO paperwork into 184 different languages to make it easier for the British voter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I have every confidence in the wisdom of the Great British Public just as long as anyone who voted for a performing dog to win BGT is disenfranchised. Totally agree - the right to vote should be predicated by an IQ test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Totally agree - the right to vote should be predicated by an IQ test Do you think the party leaders will dance with dogs so they can cash in on there core voters:) Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Pleased with this. Particularly with how Cameron came across on the radio, words to the effect of: "We will give the public their say; I personally think we should stay in but this will give us the chance to debate and then make an informed vote " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I'm not sure i trust the population of this country to make a balanced decision, they're easily swayed by tabloid headlines of immigrants, free houses etc. rather than the needs of the business community. Seeing as people tend to get introspective and right wing as they get older maybe its time to remove the vote from the over 60's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindsorSaint Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Seeing as people tend to get introspective and right wing as they get older maybe its time to remove the vote from the over 60's? Or only allow the old and wise to vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Or only allow the old and wise to vote? OK i'll compromise, no over 70's. I suppose a way around it would be to make everyone sit a test to see wether they understand the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 OK i'll compromise, no over 70's. I suppose a way around it would be to make everyone sit a test to see wether they understand the issues. Ageist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 See Ed Milliband has got himself into a bit of a pickle. At PMQ, he ruled out an In/OUT referendum, however afterwards, labour aides are scrabbling around saying that he meant "ruled out an in / out refendum NOW." The Labour party really needs to sort out their position on this quickly, otherwise the other parties will beat them up repeatly about it. I am not sure how they are going to get out of this one. Either they say OK we support it, which means they look stupid from all the posturing over the topic to date, or they say we rule it out thus potentially alienating a big chunk of the electorate, or worse still, they dither and they will look and sound ridiculous as they have in the above example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I suppose a way around it would be to make everyone sit a test to see whether they understand the issues. Which are ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 See Ed Milliband has got himself into a bit of a pickle. At PMQ, he ruled out an In/OUT referendum, however afterwards, labour aides are scrabbling around saying that he meant "ruled out an in / out refendum NOW." The Labour party really needs to sort out their position on this quickly, otherwise the other parties will beat them up repeatly about it. I am not sure how they are going to get out of this one. Either they say OK we support it, which means they look stupid from all the posturing over the topic to date, or they say we rule it out thus potentially alienating a big chunk of the electorate, or worse still, they dither and they will look and sound ridiculous as they have in the above example. I think the Labour Party has consistently said that there would always be a referendum if there were material changes to the Treaty. In fact, I think the Tories said that too. I think the Labour Party is also saying that, until the terms of any renegotiation are clear, it would be silly to call NOW for a referendum whose makeup would be unclear. I notice that Mr Cameron failed to answer a simple question: What would you do if the negotiations failed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 I see a lot of the Eurpean politicians are moaning about Camerons speech. Is it because they need the UK to keep pumping the lions share of money into europe. with france and Germany they are moaning. They would not like to lose that amount of money as it would mean they would have to contribute more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Despite Blairs promises previously a referendum never took place. So what are the views of labout and wallace and gromitt "A referendum was expected to take place in the United Kingdom in 2006 to decide whether the country should ratify the proposed Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe. However, following the rejection of the Constitution by similar referendums in France in May 2005 and the Netherlands in June 2005, the UK vote was postponed indefinitely. The question was rendered moot when the constitution was superseded by the Treaty of Lisbon, which Parliament ratified in 2008 without holding a referendum" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 This article explains what the Treaty of Lisbon is and also explains the various opt-outs the UK and other member states negotiated. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6901353.stm I believe the argument against a referendum at that time was that it wasn't a change to the constitution but rather an amendment, and this article seems to support that view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Yes, something that all major parties hid behind. The net result was broadly the same, except instead of having a clean break that the constitution would have provided, legislators ended up grafting Lisbon onto existing labyrinthine legislation. Thing is, Europe makes a lot of sense under certain systems of government. It's a good size for a self-sufficient planned economy. What we have is a gigantic capitalist market, which facilitates British companies to say "hallo, we'll move these good jobs to Poland" and Eastern Europeans to say "hello, we'll take those spare jobs in the UK". No harm to the Eastern Europeans - if I was in their position I'd do exactly the same. The executives that are literally moving our futures overseas? No time for them at all. The EU wasn't a bad idea in principle; a fraternity of old foes finding common cause to avoid future conflicts. These days, just seems like a handy mechanism for divide and rule across a continent and making sure everyone goes along with the financial scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecuk268 Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Cameron's obviously taking lessons from the Lib-Dems in as much as if you know that you're not going to win the election, you can promise whatever you like. I think that the political classes are over-estimating the public's interest in the EU. It'll be the economy that'll decide the next election - it usually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 See Ed Milliband has got himself into a bit of a pickle. At PMQ, he ruled out an In/OUT referendum, however afterwards, labour aides are scrabbling around saying that he meant "ruled out an in / out refendum NOW." The Labour party really needs to sort out their position on this quickly, otherwise the other parties will beat them up repeatly about it. I am not sure how they are going to get out of this one. Either they say OK we support it, which means they look stupid from all the posturing over the topic to date, or they say we rule it out thus potentially alienating a big chunk of the electorate, or worse still, they dither and they will look and sound ridiculous as they have in the above example.i think he realises apart from the die hards ,its more to do with the internal tory politics and how ukip is damaging their former voters ,so i expect ed milliband will watch them fall apart over this issue.has they say in the us at election time " its about the economy stupid " if cameron gets the economy right and jobs are created he will be reelected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 January, 2013 Share Posted 23 January, 2013 Cameron's obviously taking lessons from the Lib-Dems in as much as if you know that you're not going to win the election, you can promise whatever you like. I think that the political classes are over-estimating the public's interest in the EU. It'll be the economy that'll decide the next election - it usually is.agree its only the extremes of left and right who froth at the mouth about it,even though its not perfect its better to reform from the inside than have no influence and be a outcasts and lose our usa special relationship has we become unimportant to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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