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Guardian blog article on last night and the wider implications


Minty
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Why do you need 30 seats? Last season tickets in the Centre (just as an example) went up from £515 to £625, an increase of 21%.

 

So all our group can stand in the same area, had 40 go to Barnsley, 30 to skates away etc. There's four less home games this season. Stop arguing and trust me that some loyal supporters cannot justify the expense!! The extra taxes all add up

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Saintslist is still going?! :eek:

 

Haha Steve.....Saintslist has always been the equivalent of a Broadsheet paper group compared to the more (imo) tabloid-like Saintsforever and Saints Web forum...there are fewer total loony-tunes per 100 on Saintslist than here and the average age and general demographic is probably different. The quality of reasoned argument debate is usually higher and generally less personalized and, it appears to have had troll inoculations so you can get a sensible answer to a sensible post most times.

 

As for the Guardian blog article- makes some good points.

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If 'loyal' means 'goes to games' to you, then I'm not a very loyal fan. But if you look at the dictionary definition, and I would argue the wider acknowledged meaning of the word, it is a lot more than that.

 

As I posted in my previous link, the costs of going to football have risen around 1000% since the 80's... by DPS' definition, anyone who pays that and still goes is 'loyal', whilst anyone who can't afford to (or one of many other reasons for not going week in and week out anymore) is not loyal.

 

That is way too simplistic IMO.

 

That's not what I'm saying, not at all. Those that have a genuine reason for not being able to afford to go then I agree with, maybe they have a low income of whatever, my issue is those that think the ticket prices from this season are driving loyal fans away which I can't believe they are. No-one I know has stopped going because Saints ticket prices are extortionate where there is only an increase of about £100 a season (which they will probably save in the beers/travel for the 4 games less they're travelling to.

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Yes and yes. You?

no, I live 200 miles away..

 

all well and good you saying you cant believe fans are just "accepting" all this..yet you will turn up, make the numbers up and (probably) spend more money

I bet you even get another ST next season..

 

time and time again, the only real protest is people who actually stay away for long periods....rather than half hearted attempts of "not accepting" anything

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Lucky for me I have been in meetings but the simple fact is that some (*for DPS' sake, not all) people who have been very loyal, through good times and bad times, are increasingly (*for DPS' sake, that means it is happening more, over time, not necessarily right now) fed up with a number of things about the club, most of which show that they, the decent fans, count for sod all. These points, combined with the ticket prices, mean that some (*for DPS' sake, not all) are starting to say I am not going any more. If not being prepared to blindly accept whatever is asked of them / dictated to them means they are not loyal, then they are not loyal (any longer).

 

Some of the resulting gaps (*for DPS' sake, only some) are taken up by more people who are happy to accept whatever the club does, and don't wish to question anything. Some (* you should know by now) of these same people will pay ever higher prices, sit down when they are told to (and where) not sing, and happily accept the performances and results that the team generates. They don't leap about too much when we win, but the really great upside for them is that don't get upset if we lose. Or play badly. Or ignore the fans. Perfect fans for our club then, we will all agree.

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Just to put my cards on the table, I can't afford to get to many games this season, not due to the ticket prices but due to the extra travel it costs me from where I am. However, I also wouldn't say I am a 'loyal' fan. I wouldn't have the temerity to do that as there are far more people who spend their hard earned money going to games. I am a loyal fan in that I will always support Southampton, but not on the same scale as others that go to all games, home and away. It seems that the fans alluded to in this aren't that loyal, and are really rather looking for an excuse not to go.

 

All imho of course.

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no, I live 200 miles away..

 

all well and good you saying you cant believe fans are just "accepting" all this..yet you will turn up, make the numbers up and (probably) spend more money

I bet you even get another ST next season..

 

time and time again, the only real protest is people who actually stay away for long periods....rather than half hearted attempts of "not accepting" anything

I wouldn't agree that the only real protest is to stay away, but you're right it is the strongest of "protests", also one that is tough for many fans. Will we all spend £700 on season ticket next year? Maybe, maybe not.

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Just to put my cards on the table, I can't afford to get to many games this season, not due to the ticket prices but due to the extra travel it costs me from where I am. However, I also wouldn't say I am a 'loyal' fan. I wouldn't have the temerity to do that as there are far more people who spend their hard earned money going to games. I am a loyal fan in that I will always support Southampton, but not on the same scale as others that go to all games, home and away. It seems that the fans alluded to in this aren't that loyal, and are really rather looking for an excuse not to go.

 

All imho of course.

Correct you're not a loyal fan, hardly ever go and therefore really shouldn't be commenting on the loyalty of those that do go to games.
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I wouldn't agree that the only real protest is to stay away, but you're right it is the strongest of "protests", also one that is tough for many fans. Will we all spend £700 on season ticket next year? Maybe, maybe not.

fair enough...but the talk about enough is enough etc....and cant believe people are accepting it....just stay away if so.....

 

imagine the message it would send NC if ST numbers dropped by 5k next season...that would be news...

but you and I know it wont...and people will soon move on and a big signing now or in the summer will be the topic of conversation until the next rumbling...but people will still go...so nothing will change

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But you're missing the point. If they are loyal they wouldn't turn their back. They are only loyal up to a point, and as soon as that point is reached they are no longer loyal fans. They are non loyal fans that have let other factors wane their loyalty. Loyal fans won't disappear, they will (mad ticket prices permitting) continue to support the club and the team.

 

Just to put my cards on the table, I can't afford to get to many games this season, not due to the ticket prices but due to the extra travel it costs me from where I am. However, I also wouldn't say I am a 'loyal' fan. I wouldn't have the temerity to do that as there are far more people who spend their hard earned money going to games. I am a loyal fan in that I will always support Southampton, but not on the same scale as others that go to all games, home and away. It seems that the fans alluded to in this aren't that loyal, and are really rather looking for an excuse not to go.

 

All imho of course.

 

No. You're not a loyal fan as you dont go to many games and by your own definition earlier you've let other things get in the way of your loyalty and been replaced by other loyal fans. So pipedown and stop trying to tell match going fans what they should and shouldn't be doing.

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fair enough...but the talk about enough is enough etc....and cant believe people are accepting it....just stay away if so.....

 

imagine the message it would send NC if ST numbers dropped by 5k next season...that would be news...

but you and I know it wont...and people will soon move on and a big signing now or in the summer will be the topic of conversation until the next rumbling...but people will still go...so nothing will change

Yes some will stay and pay whatever regardless of what happens. But some will gradually drift away to be replaced Premier League fans, which comes back to my original post on this thread.
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Yes some will stay and pay whatever regardless of what happens. But some will gradually drift away to be replaced Premier League fans, which comes back to my original post on this thread.

agree.....are you not a premier league fan...if you continue to go...whilst giving an impression your are disgusted in the internet world...?

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No. You're not a loyal fan as you dont go to many games and by your own definition earlier you've let other things get in the way of your loyalty and been replaced by other loyal fans. So pipedown and stop trying to tell match going fans what they should and shouldn't be doing.

 

I'm not commenting on match going fans. I am saying that if these match going fans decide not to go anymore then they are not loyal. Which you are alluding to in this post?

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agree.....are you not a premier league fan...if you continue to go...whilst giving an impression your are disgusted in the internet world...?
Not if I also went in League 1, the Championship etc. And that's based on the premise I still go. £700 a season ticket? Who knows.
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Just to put my cards on the table, I can't afford to get to many games this season, not due to the ticket prices but due to the extra travel it costs me from where I am. However, I also wouldn't say I am a 'loyal' fan. I wouldn't have the temerity to do that as there are far more people who spend their hard earned money going to games. I am a loyal fan in that I will always support Southampton, but not on the same scale as others that go to all games, home and away. It seems that the fans alluded to in this aren't that loyal, and are really rather looking for an excuse not to go.

 

All imho of course.

 

It's just ridiculous that you can come out with that especially when you don't know peoples circumstances. Trust me, my lot do everything to find a reason to go (we had 16 at Villa and have at least double that going to Wigan) would do everything to go if it was a good experience but the truth is that it isn't anymore. It's just over priced entertainment. The moral values that come with being a ''loyal supporter'' don't relate the corporate ownership anymore so why should they to the supporters. As clubs indentities start to slip more and more, then the more dead grounds are going to become with ''football watchers'' replacing ''football supporters''. I'm not moaning about it, I'm just saying that's how it is. 30 people don't each want to pay £50 quid or whatever plus taxes to go United or Chelsea but they're happy to pay less than half that to go to a less exciting prospect like Wigan, so price is clearly a massive issue.

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I'm not commenting on match going fans. I am saying that if these match going fans decide not to go anymore then they are not loyal. Which you are alluding to in this post?

 

See this is where we differ. I would say that the loyal fans are the ones that went in L1 and during the admin times. The extra 8-10k or so we've picked up are Premier league fans. The loyal fans are the ones that were there when the club needed them and were willing to support the team whoever we played. Not when they could be lucky enough to catch a clipse of Wayne Rooney or Frank Lampard. They are the loyal fans, not the c*nts who f*cked off in 2005 and are now coming back now.

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Not if I also went in League 1, the Championship etc. And that's based on the premise I still go. £700 a season ticket? Who knows.

fair enough.....but if you are so disgusted....and really cant understand those who just want to "move on"...then, like hypo "claims" you will stop going...if it such an issue...going and making the numbers will tell NC he is on the right path.....as there will be little protest (if at all) should we continue to do alright

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Yes some will stay and pay whatever regardless of what happens. But some will gradually drift away to be replaced Premier League fans, which comes back to my original post on this thread.

 

But if they drift away they are not loyal. They are fans sure, but they're not loyal. They won't stiock with the club through thick and thin.

 

Definition of loyal: Giving or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to a person or institution: "he remained loyal to the government".

 

The key word is 'Constant'.

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See this is where we differ. I would say that the loyal fans are the ones that went in L1 and during the admin times. The extra 8-10k or so we've picked up are Premier league fans. The loyal fans are the ones that were there when the club needed them and were willing to support the team whoever we played. Not when they could be lucky enough to catch a clipse of Wayne Rooney or Frank Lampard. They are the loyal fans, not the c*nts who f*cked off in 2005 and are now coming back now.
Utterly & totally correct.
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See this is where we differ. I would say that the loyal fans are the ones that went in L1 and during the admin times. The extra 8-10k or so we've picked up are Premier league fans. The loyal fans are the ones that were there when the club needed them and were willing to support the team whoever we played. Not when they could be lucky enough to catch a clipse of Wayne Rooney or Frank Lampard. They are the loyal fans, not the c*nts who f*cked off in 2005 and are now coming back now.

 

When I could afford to go and went then! I really am not saying the Premier League fans are loyal. I am saying that loyal fans would stick with the club through thick and thin (and I believe this is the 'thin' era for your friends) and would not let a £100 ticket increase for going to watch in the Premier League a barrier to that loyalty.

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When I could afford to go and went then! I really am not saying the Premier League fans are loyal. I am saying that loyal fans would stick with the club through thick and thin (and I believe this is the 'thin' era for your friends) and would not let a £100 ticket increase for going to watch in the Premier League a barrier to that loyalty.

 

Excellent wind up as no way you can mean that unless you are thick as fu.ck.

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But if they drift away they are not loyal. They are fans sure, but they're not loyal. They won't stiock with the club through thick and thin.

 

Definition of loyal: Giving or showing firm and constant support or allegiance to a person or institution: "he remained loyal to the government".

 

The key word is 'Constant'.

If you want to pretend they're not loyal that's up to you. I think we all know the truth in reality though. Happy trolling.
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Really? So I won't pay £40+ for me & £20 odd for the nipper I'm not a "good fan" despite going home & away during the "glamour" years in L1?

 

Some folk really don't have a clue.

 

Where did I say you weren't a good fan? There is a difference between a good fan and a loyal fan. So how much extra per game does it cost you than last season for a Category A game in the Family Stand?

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When I could afford to go and went then! I really am not saying the Premier League fans are loyal. I am saying that loyal fans would stick with the club through thick and thin (and I believe this is the 'thin' era for your friends) and would not let a £100 ticket increase for going to watch in the Premier League a barrier to that loyalty.

I think you're perhaps too focused on this '£100 ticket increase'... it's more than that. It's the accumulation of things over the years... players' wages, treatment of fans by various club regimes, overt efforts to censor fans, the wider football landscape... as each issue comes, it becomes the straw that breaks the camels back for more and more fans (loyal or otherwise).

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If you want to pretend they're not loyal that's up to you. I think we all know the truth in reality though. Happy trolling.

 

Yeah, nice one. Explain why that is trolling? I would say that someone who went to every game in the League 1, the Championship and now the Premiership is more loyal to Saints than someone who went in League 1 and the Championship. How that is seen as trolling I don't know.

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I think you're perhaps too focused on this '£100 ticket increase'... it's more than that. It's the accumulation of things over the years... players' wages, treatment of fans by various club regimes, overt efforts to censor fans, the wider football landscape... as each issue comes, it becomes the straw that breaks the camels back for more and more fans (loyal or otherwise).

 

Of course there is and I'm not denying it. But if the fans are willing to let these issues get in the way of them supporting the club through thick and thin I would say these people are less loyal than those fans who don't (and been there through thick and thin as well).

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Where did I say you weren't a good fan? There is a difference between a good fan and a loyal fan. So how much extra per game does it cost you than last season for a Category A game in the Family Stand?

 

Plenty due to nippers age group changing & the amount of games changed for Sky, which then clash with our own sporting participation, means cost per match has risen. I also live 3hrs north of Soton thus driving up associated transport costs.

 

In addition why would we want to be in the family stand, taking seats from younger families thus restricting their access?

 

Those of us that did the hard miles in L1/NPC and the loyal fans and frankly only an utter co.ck would suggest otherwise.

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Of course there is and I'm not denying it. But if the fans are willing to let these issues get in the way of them supporting the club through thick and thin I would say these people are less loyal than those fans who don't (and been there through thick and thin as well).

I'd argue there's a fundamental difference between loyalty and being a blind follower.

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If you want to pretend they're not loyal that's up to you. I think we all know the truth in reality though. Happy trolling.

 

I also don't understand why you are bringing trolling into this. All we're doing is having a discussion yet because I have a different opinion to you I am labelled a troll. Perhaps you should just discuss before throwing out insults for no reason.

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Of course there is and I'm not denying it. But if the fans are willing to let these issues get in the way of them supporting the club through thick and thin I would say these people are less loyal than those fans who don't (and been there through thick and thin as well).

 

Well I think I'll stop here - I don't believe that it is as simple as 'attendance = loyalty', which seems to be the crux of your argument, so we'll agree to disagree.

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Plenty due to nippers age group changing & the amount of games changed for Sky, which then clash with our own sporting participation, means cost per match has risen. I also live 3hrs north of Soton thus driving up associated transport costs.

 

In addition why would we want to be in the family stand, taking seats from younger families thus restricting their access?

 

Those of us that did the hard miles in L1/NPC and the loyal fans and frankly only an utter co.ck would suggest otherwise.

 

I assumed if you were taking the nipper you'd be in the family area, it was just an assumption. Choose a different area to compare. Changing age groups obviously does make a difference, but that isn't due to the clubs pricing policy, but just an unfortunate coincidence that the nipper has become older at that time.

 

The 3 hours from Southampton makes no difference as you had to do that last season I presume?

 

Don't see why you have to throw insults around and circumvent the swear filter, this is just a discussion.

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I'd argue there's a fundamental difference between loyalty and being a blind follower.

 

Perhaps that's it. I just don't see that all the added 'issues' with the club makes you a blind follower and willing to take anything and everything the club throws at you. Is being a Saints fan at the moment really that bad? I would say not myself.

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Yeah, nice one. Explain why that is trolling? I would say that someone who went to every game in the League 1, the Championship and now the Premiership is more loyal to Saints than someone who went in League 1 and the Championship. How that is seen as trolling I don't know.
Because you're saying they're "not loyal". Any why does it even interest you or affect you? Apart from an opportunity for some attention and trolling.
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Well I think I'll stop here - I don't believe that it is as simple as 'attendance = loyalty', which seems to be the crux of your argument, so we'll agree to disagree.

 

Ok, cool. In my book I believe it is to a large degree. I'm not saying 100% of the time, there are other, bigger mitigating circumstances that obviously make a difference.

 

I would just say that I cannot personally see that being a Saints fan has become so bad that I would think about not going due to the 'issues' that have arisen over the past few seasons which is what people are alluding to.

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I also don't understand why you are bringing trolling into this. All we're doing is having a discussion yet because I have a different opinion to you I am labelled a troll. Perhaps you should just discuss before throwing out insults for no reason.
You're trolling. The issue doesn't even seem to affect you, but you're trying to say that Saints fans that supported us in League One aren't loyal. I'm not throwing insults, it's fairly ammusing and a decent effort at a wind-up.
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Because you're saying they're "not loyal". Any why does it even interest you or affect you? Apart from an opportunity for some attention and trolling.

 

But that's not trolling? It's just an adverse opinion to yours. It interests me because it's a thread on the forum of a club I support, and one that I take exception to that loyal fans will stop going. I don't believe loyal fans would. I believe previously loyal fans have become disenchanted and decided not to support the club as much, whether that be financially or through going to games, but I would say that when this happens they are no longer in the loyal fans bracket, because their support has waned.

 

As said, it is all my opinon. You obviously disagree and due to that you are accusing me of trolling and attention seeking. I would just ask you to grow up a bit and accept that people can disagree with you.

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You're trolling. The issue doesn't even seem to affect you, but you're trying to say that Saints fans that supported us in League One aren't loyal. I'm not throwing insults, it's fairly ammusing and a decent effort at a wind-up.

 

Yes you are, you're calling me a troll. That's an insult. Surely you can see that.

 

The issue does affect me obviously as I am one of the fans who went in League 1 but don't go anymore, hence I'm not loyal.

 

I am saying those fans that think the issues that have come up over the last couple of seasons are bigger than them supporting the club every week are not loyal as the issues are small.

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Ok, cool. In my book I believe it is to a large degree. I'm not saying 100% of the time, there are other, bigger mitigating circumstances that obviously make a difference.

 

I would just say that I cannot personally see that being a Saints fan has become so bad that I would think about not going due to the 'issues' that have arisen over the past few seasons which is what people are alluding to.

 

I can understand this -I dont think things have deteriorated so much as to stop people going -its not even that bad compared to 5 to 10 years ago.

What I will say is that the atmosphere at many grounds is **** and that (along with travel costs) is the biggest put off for me- but that's not Saints related and outside the control of clubs. And IMO reducing ticket prices would only have an effect on atmospheres at the margins.

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