VectisSaint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Poorly researched, light-weight "article". For example: "the Argentinian's first appearance on an English football field marked by a buzz of welcoming applause and a mass craning of necks" This is blatant rubbish, 30 seconds of "research" (Google) indicates he played for Argentina at Wembley in 2000 when England & Argentina drew 0-0. This Ronay guy (perhaps he should stick to cooking) clearly knows nothing about the Branfoot protests or the Lowe mass protests, if so he would not write such condescening rubbish about SFC supporters. I thought before I read the article it was going to be a follow up to Gary Neville's discourse on the English game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 There was never going to be any great protest or waving of hankies. There will be no great protest by fans as to the state of football and the way their clubs ar run. Just gradually, slowly, the proper, loyal football fans will drift away, to be replcaced by the plastic, sit-in-silence, cash cows we see and mock at The Emirates, Anfield and Old Trafford. Why will the 'proper, loyal football fans' drift away? Surely if they are proper and loyal they'll stick with the club throughout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Why will the 'proper, loyal football fans' drift away? Surely if they are proper and loyal they'll stick with the club throughout? How about ticket prices, mad policy decisions, dictatorial regimes, big corporate ownership, tv is the pied piper, weird scheduling, booking fees. All can be summarised as - supporters matter less and less, we can ignore you, if you don't like it, plenty of others without any independent thoughts will take your place and will be happy IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintWill71 Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 'A game of few chances' ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 How about ticket prices, mad policy decisions, dictatorial regimes, big corporate ownership, tv is the pied piper, weird scheduling, booking fees. All can be summarised as - supporters matter less and less, we can ignore you, if you don't like it, plenty of others without any independent thoughts will take your place and will be happy IMO Exactly. Loads of fans I know that stuck with the club at it's lowest point are getting fed up. I'm sure they won't be missed though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 How about ticket prices, mad policy decisions, dictatorial regimes, big corporate ownership, tv is the pied piper, weird scheduling, booking fees. All can be summarised as - supporters matter less and less, we can ignore you, if you don't like it, plenty of others without any independent thoughts will take your place and will be happy IMO But they are 'proper, loyal football fans'. This shouldn't affect them. It will marginalise those who aren't that bothered, but to say loyal football fans would be put off by this is an oxymoron as they obviously aren't that loyal. For football clubs it is about a happy medium. What can they get away with without marginalising those that aren't loyal. These fans are the issue, not the loyal fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Exactly. Loads of fans I know that stuck with the club at it's lowest point are getting fed up. I'm sure they won't be missed though. Obviously not that good fans then if they're willing to give it all up, wouldn't you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 ... to amuse you... you keep going' date=' you dont walk away complaining about Japanese tourists. Cant afford an ST? Drink less beer, dont drink, well select the games yo can afford, but dont walk away. That is life, harsh, cruel as it may seem.[/quote'] Nice one. So being a new generation fan means paying whatever is asked and accept whatever happens to your club. Sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Obviously not that good fans then if they're willing to give it all up, wouldn't you say? How does good loyalty overcome not being able to afford tickets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Obviously not that good fans then if they're willing to give it all up, wouldn't you say? Yeah they're cracking fans, know a lot of them well and stuck with the club at it's lowest point, something which many, many others didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 How does good loyalty overcome not being able to afford tickets? It doesn't, but you're also assuming that all loyal fans can't afford to go. I don't think many loyal fans turned down season tickets this season because they can't afford them over last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 That was not the point of the analogy so is irrelevent - the point of that anology is that rightly or wrongly EVERYTHING including football changes/evolves. If fans can not adapt to it, they will be replaced by others - again rightly or wrongly. Its has always been thus - the Grampa, Son and Grandson flat capped rattle era was replaced by the more agressive Yoof, now being replaced by the polite sitting middle income crowd...in this country. As fans of any era, you either adapt and follow the new way or become extinct - the point being it football survives with or without you or I. This may seem callus and harsh but 'evolution; is like that and in 2 or 3 generations time, it will be forgotten anyway. So people should pay whatever is demanded of them, however much it is or else f*ck them, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 It doesn't, but you're also assuming that all loyal fans can't afford to go. I don't think many loyal fans turned down season tickets this season because they can't afford them over last season. I know a few that have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Yeah they're cracking fans, know a lot of them well and stuck with the club at it's lowest point, something which many, many others didn't. So stuck with the team through Wilde, Crouch, Lowe and admin, and they think that now is the worst ever time for the football club and are thinking of giving it all up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 It doesn't, but you're also assuming that all loyal fans can't afford to go. I don't think many loyal fans turned down season tickets this season because they can't afford them over last season. Originally Posted by Sour Mash. "Just gradually, slowly, the proper, loyal football fans will drift away, to be replcaced by the plastic, sit-in-silence, cash cows we see and mock at The Emirates, Anfield and Old Trafford." You disputed the above. It says gradually, slowly....fans will drift away. No one said that all loyal fans cant afford to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 I know a few that have. Me too. More than a handful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 I know a few that have. Did they expect the prices to stay the same then? It must have been purely the price increase (which wasn't big in all reality) which meant they didn't renew then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Originally Posted by Sour Mash. "Just gradually, slowly, the proper, loyal football fans will drift away, to be replcaced by the plastic, sit-in-silence, cash cows we see and mock at The Emirates, Anfield and Old Trafford." You disputed the above. It says gradually, slowly....fans will drift away. No one said that all loyal fans cant afford to go I am disputing the word 'loyal' and 'drifting away'. If they are loyal they won't drift away. The only reason would be a massive hike in prices, which we haven't seen. It seems a rather redundant point to make, that as a club becomes more successful some fans can't afford to go. But that HAS ALWAYS been the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMondo Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 It's a fine line between loyalty and obsequiousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 So stuck with the team through Wilde, Crouch, Lowe and admin, and they think that now is the worst ever time for the football club and are thinking of giving it all up? Yes some are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 So stuck with the team through Wilde, Crouch, Lowe and admin, and they think that now is the worst ever time for the football club and are thinking of giving it all up? Yep. It's not necessarily about it being the "worst ever time" for the football club, just spending £40+ on a ticket and being told to sit down and shut up isn't for them. I can very much see where they're coming, regardless of the football being better. You might not get that, others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Me too. More than a handful Well there you are, £100 a year is how much their football club is worth to them then (less than £10 a month - or 2.5 pints a month). I wouldn't call them loyal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Exactly. Loads of fans I know that stuck with the club at it's lowest point are getting fed up. I'm sure they won't be missed though. This is the thing. If you want saints to be Manchester United and have a dead home ground atmosphere, stupidly high ticket prices, no real identity for the locals, more popular in Asia than in the boroughs of Manchester itself then that's where we're heading. Having been to over 200 games home and away through the last seven football league years with a good size group of my friends a lot of us didn't renew season tickets this year and more definitely won't be next season... Nor did a couple of businessmen I know who have had boxes for years, that's purely down to the ridiculous raping on the prices of them. Cortese needs to remember that it's all well and good whilst we are currently in the top flight honeymoon period and people will pay whatever to see saints back at the top. What happens though when you become a club that has a fan base of ''premiership viewers'' when your team gets relegated? If you start losing all the hard core supporters who follow saints through thick and thin what happens if we have some off years? They won't necessarily come back just because the club (and it's chairmen) is currently in need... Football is changing but the owners of clubs need to remember that the 20k+ average of fans in league one aren't a guaranteed asset of the club, especially when the club begins to lose it's identity. (I wander what would have happened to Cardiff Red Dragons crowd numbers if they weren't pushing promotion this year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Yes some are. God that's precious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Yep. It's not necessarily about it being the "worst ever time" for the football club, just spending £40+ on a ticket and being told to sit down and shut up isn't for them. I can very much see where they're coming, regardless of the football being better. You might not get that, others do. That's something completely different though. That happened in Lowe's era as well. £40+ on a ticket, it's £35 plus booking fee for the biggest games?! No need to exagerate. If they're loyal fans they'd have no trouble whatsoever sitting in the Family Enclosure I think you'll agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 I am disputing the word 'loyal' and 'drifting away'. If they are loyal they won't drift away. The only reason would be a massive hike in prices, which we haven't seen. It seems a rather redundant point to make, that as a club becomes more successful some fans can't afford to go. But that HAS ALWAYS been the case. So you are saying that someone that stuck with the club through Crouch/Wilde/Lowe/Dutch due, did Hartlepool on a Tuesday night etc isn't loyal? The "can't afford to go" argument is far more complex than you think - people that are p****d off with the club are less likely to shell out a fortune following their team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 God that's precious. why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 This is the thing. If you want saints to be Manchester United and have a dead home ground atmosphere, stupidly high ticket prices, no real identity for the locals, more popular in Asia than in the boroughs of Manchester itself then that's where we're heading. Having been to over 200 games home and away through the last seven football league years with a good size group of my friends a lot of us didn't renew season tickets this year and more definitely won't be next season... Nor did a couple of businessmen I know who have had boxes for years, that's purely down to the ridiculous raping on the prices of them. Cortese needs to remember that it's all well and good whilst we are currently in the top flight honeymoon period and people will pay whatever to see saints back at the top. What happens though when you become a club that has a fan base of ''premiership viewers'' when your team gets relegated? If you start losing all the hard core supporters who follow saints through thick and thin what happens if we have some off years? They won't necessarily come back just because the club (and it's chairmen) is currently in need... Football is changing but the owners of clubs need to remember that the 20k+ average of fans in league one aren't a guaranteed asset of the club, especially when the club begins to lose it's identity. (I wander what would have happened to Cardiff Red Dragons crowd numbers if they weren't pushing promotion this year). Just out of interest, what did you expect to happen to prices when we got promoted? Did you expect to see no rise? Did you still expect no rise when we spent £30m on players in the Summer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 That's something completely different though. That happened in Lowe's era as well. £40+ on a ticket, it's £35 plus booking fee for the biggest games?! No need to exagerate. If they're loyal fans they'd have no trouble whatsoever sitting in the Family Enclosure I think you'll agree. Why is that different? And Man Utd away £46.50, Chelsea away circa £50, so not exagerating. Did you do the Chelsea game? Are you going to United? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Just out of interest, what did you expect to happen to prices when we got promoted? Did you expect to see no rise? Did you still expect no rise when we spent £30m on players in the Summer? You're missing the point. It's not prices goign up and loyal fans turning around and never going ever again. It's a whole package of things, slowls chipping away at those that have traditionally gone week in, week out, up and down the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 So you are saying that someone that stuck with the club through Crouch/Wilde/Lowe/Dutch due, did Hartlepool on a Tuesday night etc isn't loyal? The "can't afford to go" argument is far more complex than you think - people that are p****d off with the club are less likely to shell out a fortune following their team. Then they're not that loyal? Frankly if they don't want to support the club then fair enough, they should stay away. We're all ******ed off with Cortese for various things, but I'm not going to sit their sobbing into my ale about how Cortese's taken my club away. It seems that people have a problem with success, perhaps they only like supporting us when we're unsuccesful? Maybe that is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Just out of interest, what did you expect to happen to prices when we got promoted? Did you expect to see no rise? Did you still expect no rise when we spent £30m on players in the Summer? The funny thing is DPS only a few days ago people (not you i dont think) were aruging that TV money was the be all and income from crowds was only a small proportion of a clubs income and irelevant. Now all of a sudden people should pay what they are told, not question it and if they dont like it, well f*ck them, there are plenty of others that will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Just out of interest, what did you expect to happen to prices when we got promoted? Did you expect to see no rise? Did you still expect no rise when we spent £30m on players in the Summer? I went to one of those fans dinners last year and Mr Cortese promised there wouldn't be an increase more than 25%, this turned out to be 41% per game and something more like 75% for the corporate boxes. Add this to the tax on tickets, when you buy 30 at a time like I did a few times last year this becomes a massive expense for every away game that's coming straight out my pocket. It's unecessary and just a **** take. I can't justify it on top of prices up to £50 a ticket for some grounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 why? Grown men stating "Cortese's taken my club away, boohoo". Haven't people learnt anything from this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Why is that different? And Man Utd away £46.50, Chelsea away circa £50, so not exagerating. Did you do the Chelsea game? Are you going to United? But that's not Saints setting those prices?? That's United and Chelsea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Then they're not that loyal? Frankly if they don't want to support the club then fair enough, they should stay away. We're all ******ed off with Cortese for various things, but I'm not going to sit their sobbing into my ale about how Cortese's taken my club away. It seems that people have a problem with success, perhaps they only like supporting us when we're unsuccesful? Maybe that is it? Yeah, they never went to any games in 83/84, 89/90, 02/03, hate seeing Saints successful You're another one that doesn't understand match going supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 But that's not Saints setting those prices?? That's United and Chelsea. Who said it was? Do you understand anything discussed on this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 You're missing the point. It's not prices goign up and loyal fans turning around and never going ever again. It's a whole package of things, slowls chipping away at those that have traditionally gone week in, week out, up and down the country. But you're missing the point. If they are loyal they wouldn't turn their back. They are only loyal up to a point, and as soon as that point is reached they are no longer loyal fans. They are non loyal fans that have let other factors wane their loyalty. Loyal fans won't disappear, they will (mad ticket prices permitting) continue to support the club and the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Grown men stating "Cortese's taken my club away, boohoo". Haven't people learnt anything from this: You better hope we don't have a couple of successful seasons then get relegated, we'll all be wanted then. The funny thing is that everyone says how good a business man Nicola is but he offers really poor customer service!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Grown men stating "Cortese's taken my club away, boohoo". Haven't people learnt anything from this: Who has said that? You're another wierd internet person aren't you. Just doesn't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 You better hope we don't have a couple of successful seasons then get relegated, we'll all be wanted then. The funny thing is that everyone says how good a business man Nicola is but he offers really poor customer service!!!! The irony is, the people saying on here "Just suck it up and don't complain" never seem to go to games themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 The funny thing is DPS only a few days ago people (not you i dont think) were aruging that TV money was the be all and income from crowds was only a small proportion of a clubs income and irelevant. Now all of a sudden people should pay what they are told, not question it and if they dont like it, well f*ck them, there are plenty of others that will. I don't agree with that though. However, I don't think Saints ticket prices are THAT bad. We have always been towards the higher end because we are from a more affluent area. We have never been Wigan/Blackburn prices. If the ticket prices got really bad then yeah, people should have a go. I'm not saying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 But you're missing the point. If they are loyal they wouldn't turn their back. They are only loyal up to a point, and as soon as that point is reached they are no longer loyal fans. They are non loyal fans that have let other factors wane their loyalty. Loyal fans won't disappear, they will (mad ticket prices permitting) continue to support the club and the team. Can you confirm what the cut off point is for what determines that someone is loyal or not please. I'm not sure what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 22 January, 2013 Author Share Posted 22 January, 2013 If 'loyal' means 'goes to games' to you, then I'm not a very loyal fan. But if you look at the dictionary definition, and I would argue the wider acknowledged meaning of the word, it is a lot more than that. As I posted in my previous link, the costs of going to football have risen around 1000% since the 80's... by DPS' definition, anyone who pays that and still goes is 'loyal', whilst anyone who can't afford to (or one of many other reasons for not going week in and week out anymore) is not loyal. That is way too simplistic IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 The irony is, the people saying on here "Just suck it up and don't complain" never seem to go to games themselves. Hilarious isn't it. These internet people sitting on their computers worshiping the chairman and telling everyone just to pay the prices and not complain about anything yet not going themselves. I was slagged off on this forum last night because i didn't reply to someones questions because i was going to the game!! You couldn't make it up, "fans" slagging off other fans on the internet for going to game and not sitting on a computer talking about it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 I went to one of those fans dinners last year and Mr Cortese promised there wouldn't be an increase more than 25%, this turned out to be 41% per game and something more like 75% for the corporate boxes. Add this to the tax on tickets, when you buy 30 at a time like I did a few times last year this becomes a massive expense for every away game that's coming straight out my pocket. It's unecessary and just a **** take. I can't justify it on top of prices up to £50 a ticket for some grounds. Why do you need 30 seats? Last season tickets in the Centre (just as an example) went up from £515 to £625, an increase of 21%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 If 'loyal' means 'goes to games' to you, then I'm not a very loyal fan. But if you look at the dictionary definition, and I would argue the wider acknowledged meaning of the word, it is a lot more than that. As I posted in my previous link, the costs of going to football have risen around 1000% since the 80's... by DPS' definition, anyone who pays that and still goes is 'loyal', whilst anyone who can't afford to (or one of many other reasons for not going week in and week out anymore) is not loyal. That is way too simplistic IMO. Agreed. If tickets were a tenner we would fill a 100k seater stadium every week. There aren't many people that can justify paying for a season ticket and away games that costs a massive part of their gross income. But who wants these people at football anyway? Obviously not DPS and obviously not the owners of successful clubs. Lets just make football a game for the priviliged and well off and the majority who can't afford it can go back to their council houses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 The irony is, the people saying on here "Just suck it up and don't complain" never seem to go to games themselves. Who said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Who has said that? You're another wierd internet person aren't you. Just doesn't get it. Maybe I don't. Or maybe I don't put as much stock in parking charges and additional ticket taxes as these 'loyal' fans do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 22 January, 2013 Share Posted 22 January, 2013 Why do you need 30 seats? Last season tickets in the Centre (just as an example) went up from £515 to £625, an increase of 21%. £22.39 per game (23 games @ £515) to £32.89 per game (19 games @ £625) is in fact a 46.9% increase on a per-game basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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