Long Term Ambitions

[Graffito]

"This decision has been taken with the long term ambitions of Southampton Football Club in mind."

 

Cortese's short statement on the sacking of Nigel Adkins then refers to long term targets. This is the only explanation we have for a decision which puts at risk, unnecessarily, our PL status.

 

Do we know what those long term ambitions are? What are the targets? Do the clubs ambitions align with the fans'? I'd like to know. Cortese seems to be in an awful hurry to get somewhere.

[Thedelldays]

NC clearly thinks that NA had taken us as far as he could...

also that this new fella is better than NA

 

I think we are going down...this appointment looks like a disaster short term...but should we stay up? who knows

[Glasgow_Saint]

In the "long term" pinocchio had better delivery a better win ration than he did at Espanyol

 

Or we are ****ed

[brmbrm]

Well, the new man has some real challenges: better the position, keep the squad, keep the dressing room, win over the fans.

 

Big shame: in 10 years where will Adkins be? If Man U had adopted this policy with fergie where would he and they be?

 

Big big big risk with not much potential gain, plus you show what a total ar$3h0le you are. Downside of that comes later when you find nobody ever trusts you.

[Graffito]

The way I see it, the safer decision would have been to leave Nigel Adkins in post and make the change, if Cortese thought it necessary, at the end of the season with PL status preserved. No guarantees but it was evident to most of us that progress was being made under Adkins and we were heading in the right direction.

 

Instead of which Cortese has made this high risk decision midway through the season and midway through a transfer window. Fair play, he's made two good appointments so far, though you could argue he's made two poor sackings and got lucky with Adkins. I could understand the decision a little more if there were some prospect of high reward this season but realistically the best we can hope for is preservation of PL status. On the face of it that looks less likely now with a rookie Manager that speaks pigeon English.

 

Does Cortese have free reign or has he been set targets? Go beyond Cortese to the owners. We know nothing of what they want from the club nor what financial or time pressure Cortese may be under. The Academy and training ground improvements suggest long term. Cortese may genuinely believe new bloke is a better long term option but the timing of the apoointment seems odd. We're ahead of plan aren't we so what's the rush?

[S-Clarke]

I think NC is delusional if I'm honest. He has this genuine idea that we can challenge for the league and top 4 at this level. It's delusional and not healthy.

 

I've got no problem with ambition, but I've got a problem with ambition that's completely off tangent with the size of club we are. I know we'll be getting the usual lot saying how it's possible etc.

 

But it's not. We are Southampton, we are in 2013 and we will not be competing for the league or even champions league.

 

If he wants that, he will need to put his little hand into his back pocket and pull out a billion pounds to spend on players inc. wages. That's the simple reality to it. If he does that, then fair play, but I doubt it.

[madruss]

In the "long term" pinocchio had better delivery a better win ration than he did at Espanyol

 

Or we are ****ed

 

His win ratio in the top league in Spain is better than adkins' win ratio in the top league in England. It's similar to Strachan's win ratio.

 

He also took a team to the nou camp and won. With very limited resources. Not really sure what your issue is

[Lord Duckhunter]

I love the way things have been twisted and rewritten as if we were going to be safe under Nigel.

 

It was going to the wire with Nigel.

[SNOWY]

I love the way things have been twisted and rewritten as if we were going to be safe under Nigel.

 

It was going to the wire with Nigel.

17 points from our last 12 games. The only reason we are anywhere near the bottom three is our understandably poor start. Definate grounds for optimism I would say.

[Graffito]

I love the way things have been twisted and rewritten as if we were going to be safe under Nigel.

 

It was going to the wire with Nigel.

 

Not sure whether the twisted and re-written comment was addressed to me but if so I disagree that I've done either in my comments. It probably was going to the wire with Nigel. Where is it going now Lord?

[Glasgow_Saint]

His win ratio in the top league in Spain is better than adkins' win ratio in the top league in England. It's similar to Strachan's win ratio.

 

He also took a team to the nou camp and won. With very limited resources. Not really sure what your issue is

 

Just dont see what this guy has done or offers us.

 

1) Espanyol fans describe him as average at best - they had 21,000 season ticket holders but in his last year they were getting crowds of 15,000. Thats 6,000 people that had paid but decided not to go.

2) Espanyol fans on twitter say he did not get the best out of the better players and players hated him

3) his record is shocking

4) since he left Espanyol the team has improved significantly

5) his transfers were a joke said one Espanyol fan on Twitter "wasted what little money we did have on below par player"

6) "has no plan B"

[david in sweden]

I think NC is delusional if I'm honest. He has this genuine idea that we can challenge for the league and top 4 at this level. It's delusional and not healthy.

I've got no problem with ambition, but I've got a problem with ambition that's completely off tangent with the size of club we are. I know we'll be getting the usual lot saying how it's possible etc.

But it's not. We are Southampton, we are in 2013 and we will not be competing for the league or even champions league.

If he wants that, he will need to put his little hand into his back pocket and pull out a billion pounds to spend on players inc. wages. That's the simple reality to it. If he does that, then fair play, but I doubt it.

 

It depends on your interpretation of the word " future " -does it , Clarkey?

 

Changes are fast in the Prem. world. Many players are only good for a few seasons at this level and then they will be fighting for their places against the new crop of Shaw's and JWP's.

 

I'd be surprised if we ANY of the old L1 brigade is still at SMS in 2 years time. Who can recall the names of the side we had when NA first took over in 2010?

 

Admittedly, it might seem a million miles away to think of us winning a cup, or qualifying for Europe, but it doesn't seem so long ago when we were in the drop zone in L1. Times change.

Assuming that we survive, and changes take place.... then we must accept that Cortese's dream shouldn't be likened to everyone else's nightmare.

 

Favourite players come and go.....and (as we saw yesterday) so too - do managers. We may never know the real reason for Pardew's sudden exit, but the Nigel's departure (though sudden) was predictable

and only feels worse because he was " a nice guy" that (almost) everyone admired. IF.... it had been Branfoot or Burley, most people would have been glad to see the back of them.

[Topcat]

The way I see it, the safer decision would have been to leave Nigel Adkins in post and make the change, if Cortese thought it necessary, at the end of the season with PL status preserved. No guarantees but it was evident to most of us that progress was being made under Adkins and we were heading in the right direction.

 

Instead of which Cortese has made this high risk decision midway through the season and midway through a transfer window. Fair play, he's made two good appointments so far, though you could argue he's made two poor sackings and got lucky with Adkins..... We know nothing of what they want from the club nor what financial or time pressure Cortese may be under. The Academy and training ground improvements suggest long term. Cortese may genuinely believe new bloke is a better long term option but the timing of the apoointment seems odd. We're ahead of plan aren't we so what's the rush?

I agree, Cortese got lucky with Adkins with the first change, but it was a close run thing, 9 wins in final 10 games in Adkins first season was extraordinary and lucky.

 

We do know that the owners are not putting in large sums anymore. That massive loan financed out of future ticket sales is another Rangers type disaster waiting to happen if we are relegated.

I think NC is delusional if I'm honest. He has this genuine idea that we can challenge for the league and top 4 at this level. It's delusional and not healthy.

I've got no problem with ambition, but I've got a problem with ambition that's completely off tangent with the size of club we are. I know we'll be getting the usual lot saying how it's possible etc. But it's not. We are Southampton, we are in 2013 and we will not be competing for the league or even champions league.

If he wants that, he will need to put his little hand into his back pocket and pull out a billion pounds to spend on players inc. wages. That's the simple reality to it. If he does that, then fair play, but I doubt it.

That conclusion does match the known facts. Unfortunately if Cortese has got it wrong we could be facing financial meltdown next season. I hope Cortese gets lucky for the 2nd time. Cortese's lucky appointment with Adkins has reinforced his personal view that he is a brilliant CEO/Chairman feeding his vaity, added to the "Napoleon syndrome".

[Topcat]

You are wrong David in one key aspect. Adkins delivered success to Saints and his win % record is up with the best we have ever had. Adkins was not just a nice guy, he was a successful nice guy.

[Thedelldays]

You are wrong David in one key aspect. Adkins delivered success to Saints and his win % record is up with the best we have ever had. Adkins was not just a nice guy, he was a successful nice guy.

% ratio is a good point...but put it into perspective...he had the most expensive league 1 squad in history....

 

personally, WGS did better in the prem with no where near the investment into the team..

 

how ever...nigel should have stayed till the summer.

[Topcat]

Delldays, WGS took a couple of PL seasons to get us into the top group. Adkins record in the last 10 PL games is very respectable and getting a point off Arsenal and Chelsea gave us hope.

 

Also there are doubts that Adkins had a large say in the signings made since he joined.

[Chewy]

We do know that the owners are not putting in large sums anymore. That massive loan financed out of future ticket sales is another Rangers type disaster waiting to happen if we are relegated.

 

That conclusion does match the known facts. Unfortunately if Cortese has got it wrong we could be facing financial meltdown next season. I hope Cortese gets lucky for the 2nd time. Cortese's lucky appointment with Adkins has reinforced his personal view that he is a brilliant CEO/Chairman feeding his vaity, added to the "Napoleon syndrome".

 

We don't know they're no longer investing large sums of money. Over 30 million spent in the summer,millions seemingly still available(astori, coutinho, we even went for del,pierro who's wages would have been enormous), we are still upgrading staplewood and have plans to improve the stadium. As has been stated many times before, the loan was for tax avoidance purposes.

 

Why are some people he'll bent on suggesting we are at risk of financial meltdown, when all the evidence points to quite the reverse (including, IMO Pochettinos appointment, not that I agree with it for one second)? Disagree with decisions by all means, but we are not going bust any time soon!

[Thedelldays]

Delldays, WGS took a couple of PL seasons to get us into the top group. Adkins record in the last 10 PL games is very respectable and getting a point off Arsenal and Chelsea gave us hope.

 

Also there are doubts that Adkins had a large say in the signings made since he joined.

there were large doubts about WGS signings..he wanted saha and malbranque and got mccann...

 

put to use adkins win ratio from league 1 as a measure of his prem credentials is daft...there are plenty to have had nigel stay..but to come 2nd in league 1 with the most expensive league 1 squad ever is not really it..

[CB Fry]

Delldays, WGS took a couple of PL seasons to get us into the top group. Adkins record in the last 10 PL games is very respectable and getting a point off Arsenal and Chelsea gave us hope.

 

Also there are doubts that Adkins had a large say in the signings made since he joined.

 

He was only here one full season, where we finished eighth.

[Saint_clark]

 

I'd be surprised if we ANY of the old L1 brigade is still at SMS in 2 years time. Who can recall the names of the side we had when NA first took over in 2010?

 

Davis, Fonte, Morgan, Lallana, Puncheon, Guly, Lambert were all in the side before Adkins took over?

[colehillsaint]

 

Why are some people he'll bent on suggesting we are at risk of financial meltdown, when all the evidence points to quite the reverse (including, IMO Pochettinos appointment, not that I agree with it for one second)? Disagree with decisions by all means, but we are not going bust any time soon!

 

You don't know what our financial position is at all though really do you? Our spending could very easily have been financed by our large attendances in the lower leagues and now TV money. Better for the fan base to stay sceptical or would you sooner we ended up looking like the mugs down the road?

[Matthew Le God]

I think NC is delusional if I'm honest. He has this genuine idea that we can challenge for the league and top 4 at this level. It's delusional and not healthy..

 

Everton after 22 games are still in with a chance of a top 4 finish.

 

- Everton 5th with average of 36,874 in a 40k stadium

- Saints 15th with average of 30,496 in a 32k stadium

 

It is easier to have a higher average attendance when for the bigger games you have a 40k capacity to fill, Saints can only get 32k max when the big sides come to town, Everton can get 40k which makes it easier to boost the average. Everton are also having a more successful season than Saints, yet only average 6k more.

 

Everton are hardly "wealthy", nor have they had anywhere near the net spend and investment Saints have and Saints can out do them in the transfer market.

 

If Everton can challenge for the top 4, then why couldn't Saints in the coming years?

Edited 19 January, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[Thedelldays]

MLG, no matter what you say, we will not be challenging for the top 4 any time soon.....you are on a hiding to nothing if you try and convince people other wise

[Matthew Le God]

MLG, no matter what you say, we will not be challenging for the top 4 any time soon.....you are on a hiding to nothing if you try and convince people other wise

 

Rather than just dismissing it out of hand with a sweeping statement like that, please at least attempt to counter each and every point I made.

[Thedelldays]

Rather than just dismissing it out of hand with a sweeping statement like that, please at least attempt to counter each and every point I made.

because we just wont....just being realistic...talk about what everton have done once in 30 years is just daft

 

more and more money spent is needed...spurs are an example..they HAVE got top 4..

 

when we start signing Van der Vaarts, Holtbys and dembeles of this world...we MAY have a chance

[Turkish]

Everton after 22 games are still in with a chance of a top 4 finish.

 

- Everton 5th with average of 36,874 in a 40k stadium

- Saints 15th with average of 30,496 in a 32k stadium

 

It is easier to have a higher average attendance when for the bigger games you have a 40k capacity to fill, Saints can only get 32k max when the big sides come to town, Everton can get 40k which makes it easier to boost the average. Everton are also having a more successful season than Saints, yet only average 6k more.

 

Everton are hardly "wealthy", nor have they had anywhere near the net spend and investment Saints have and Saints can out do them in the transfer market.

 

If Everton can challenge for the top 4, then why couldn't Saints in the coming years?

 

What have average crowds got to do with anything?

[Turkish]

Rather than just dismissing it out of hand with a sweeping statement like that, please at least attempt to counter each and every point I made.

 

Something about Everton not making 4th with crowds 6k bigger than ours wasn't it? Great point.

[Matthew Le God]

because we just wont....just being realistic...talk about what everton have done once in 30 years is just daft

 

more and more money spent is needed...spurs are an example..they HAVE got top 4..

 

when we start signing Van der Vaarts, Holtbys and dembeles of this world...we MAY have a chance

 

Everton have made the top 4 under Moyles and they are currently 5th this season with 22 games played.

 

What have average crowds got to do with anything?

 

Well what over factors are you going to use why Everton can put up a challenge for the Champions League but Saints can't?

 

Cortese/Liebherr's are investing more money than Bill Kenwright has. My point was in terms of match going fanbase, Everton are on a similar level to Saints despite them challenging at the top of the league and Saints at the bottom.

[Chewy]

You don't know what our financial position is at all though really do you? Our spending could very easily have been financed by our large attendances in the lower leagues and now TV money. Better for the fan base to stay sceptical or would you sooner we ended up looking like the mugs down the road?

 

In all fairness, only very few people know the real financial situation, so it's always going to about opinion based on the evidence we have to go on. Based on what I've seen I'm feeling very confident that we are not going to end up like those down the road. Stay sceptical if you like, i see no reason to.

[shurlock]

Everton after 22 games are still in with a chance of a top 4 finish.

 

- Everton 5th with average of 36,874 in a 40k stadium

- Saints 15th with average of 30,496 in a 32k stadium

 

It is easier to have a higher average attendance when for the bigger games you have a 40k capacity to fill, Saints can only get 32k max when the big sides come to town, Everton can get 40k which makes it easier to boost the average. Everton are also having a more successful season than Saints, yet only average 6k more.

 

Everton are hardly "wealthy", nor have they had anywhere near the net spend and investment Saints have and Saints can out do them in the transfer market.

 

If Everton can challenge for the top 4, then why couldn't Saints in the coming years?

 

Should be picking for cherries for a living.

And all the clubs that have had similar, if not bigger attendances and budgets than Everton and have finished nowhere near the top 4. What about them?

[Thedelldays]

Everton have made the top 4 under Moyles.

 

 

 

Well what over factors are you going to use why Everton can put up a challenge for the Champions League but Saints can't?

 

Cortese/Liebherr's are investing more money than Bill Kenwright has.

i know they have made the top 4 under moyes...once, in the last 30 years or so they have...brilliant

 

spurs are a better example..........look at the sheer money they spend to hope for 4th place...arsenal, 3rd best team...look at their wages..

 

we really are not going to get there unless we get 50k+ per game..every home game at around £40 a ticket...or, the liebherrs are going to have to throw around £500m at the club

[Turkish]

Everton have made the top 4 under Moyles.

 

 

 

Well what over factors are you going to use why Everton can put up a challenge for the Champions League but Saints can't?

 

Cortese/Liebherr's are investing more money than Bill Kenwright has. My point was in terms of match going fanbase, Everton are on a similar level to Saints despite them challenging at the top of the league and Saints at the bottom.

 

How are Everton at a similar level to use when they are a big club, established in top flight and challenging for 4th and we are struggling to avoid the drop in our first season back?

[Trumush]

Everton after 22 games are still in with a chance of a top 4 finish.

 

- Everton 5th with average of 36,874 in a 40k stadium

- Saints 15th with average of 30,496 in a 32k stadium

 

It is easier to have a higher average attendance when for the bigger games you have a 40k capacity to fill, Saints can only get 32k max when the big sides come to town, Everton can get 40k which makes it easier to boost the average. Everton are also having a more successful season than Saints, yet only average 6k more.

 

Everton are hardly "wealthy", nor have they had anywhere near the net spend and investment Saints have and Saints can out do them in the transfer market.

 

If Everton can challenge for the top 4, then why couldn't Saints in the coming years?

 

If we can establish ourselves in this league I have no doubts that Cortese will have us playing in a larger capacity stadium whether a bigger St Marys or a new build.

 

Then we will be able to compete for a top 4 place.

[Thedelldays]

How are Everton at a similar level to use when they are a big club, established in top flight and challenging for 4th and we are struggling to avoid the drop in our first season back?

and lets be honest...moyes is in a different universe to our new bloke..or adkins...or even WGS (who got us 8th)

[Saintandy666]

What have average crowds got to do with anything?

 

Quite clearly he is countering the point of 'we're not big enough to challenge for the top 4'. It's a decent comparison, but I really don't see us getting up there. I think maybe Europa League is a possibility? Depends how much money we have...

 

Also worth pointing out that Everton have stuck with Moyes through thick and thin.

[Turkish]

Quite clearly he is countering the point of 'we're not big enough to challenge for the top 4'. It's a decent comparison, but I really don't see us getting up there. I think maybe Europa League is a possibility? Depends how much money we have...

 

Also worth pointing out that Everton have stuck with Moyes through thick and thin.

 

sunderland get bigger crowds than we do. How is their champions league push going?

[Matthew Le God]

i know they have made the top 4 under moyes...once, in the last 30 years or so they have...brilliant

 

spurs are a better example..........look at the sheer money they spend to hope for 4th place...arsenal, 3rd best team...look at their wages..

 

we really are not going to get there unless we get 50k+ per game..every home game at around £40 a ticket...or, the liebherrs are going to have to throw around £500m at the club

 

Again, you have not explained why Everton can challenge for the top 4 but not Saints.

 

btw you mention Everton in the top 4 once in the last "30 years", in the last 30 years Everton have won the league ffs and Saints have come 2nd. So really not sure the relevance of that!

[Saintandy666]

If we can establish ourselves in this league I have no doubts that Cortese will have us playing in a larger capacity stadium whether a bigger St Marys or a new build.

 

Then we will be able to compete for a top 4 place.

 

But I really don't think we have enough fans. Sure, I guess we can gain fans, but I think our maximum potential regular attendance is around 40k. And I know that Chelsea only have around that, but I think if they were to increase their stadium size to say 60k, they'd fill that. We'd never do 60k. Not in the next 10 or so years anyways...

[Turkish]

Again, you have not explained why Everton can challenge for the top 4 but not Saints.

 

btw you mention Everton in the top 4 once in the last "30 years", in the last 30 years Everton have won the league ffs and Saints have come 2nd. So really not sure the relevance of that!

 

How did Aston Villa get on with their top 4 challenge when they spent a fortune under O'Neill and had bigger crowds than us?

[Thedelldays]

Again, you have not explained why Everton can challenge for the top 4 but not Saints.

 

btw you mention Everton in the top 4 once in the last "30 years", in the last 30 years Everton have won the league ffs and Saints have come 2nd. So really not sure the relevance of that!

mate, please just fuk off...

 

I am content and safe in the knowledge that we wont be...we wont be in 5 years and that is fine.....no amount of what ifs is going to change that..or that everton get 6-8k more people through the door

[Gingeletiss]

Something about Everton not making 4th with crowds 6k bigger than ours wasn't it? Great point.

 

You really are an internet bully, aren't you! Every post by MLG is attacked by you, so sad, mind you, every post is an attack on something Saints related, just seem to have it in for MLG, what a poor excuse of a man you are.

[Matthew Le God]

How are Everton at a similar level to use when they are a big club, established in top flight and challenging for 4th and we are struggling to avoid the drop in our first season back?

 

Read the first part of the sentence ffs Turkish and stop taking things out of context...

 

"My point was in terms of match going fanbase, Everton are on a similar level to Saints despite them challenging at the top of the league and Saints at the bottom."

[Turkish]

Perhaps MLG can name the Premier clubs that have qualifed for the champions league with average crowds of 30k.

[Turkish]

Read the first part of the sentence ffs Turkish and stop taking things out of context...

 

"My point was in terms of match going fanbase, Everton are on a similar level to Saints despite them challenging at the top of the league and Saints at the bottom."

 

no they aren't, they get crowds 20% higher.

[Matthew Le God]

mate, please just fuk off...

 

I am content and safe in the knowledge that we wont be...we wont be in 5 years and that is fine.....no amount of what ifs is going to change that..or that everton get 6-8k more people through the door

 

Why are you refusing to answer a simple question? You have made a statement, yet refuse to explain it. It suggests that you can't justify such a statement.

[Chewy]

i know they have made the top 4 under moyes...once, in the last 30 years or so they have...brilliant

 

At the risk of sounding pedantic, they have won a European trophy, a couple of cups and the league in the least 30 years. Plus a few second places as well.

[Thedelldays]

Why are you refusing to answer a simple question? You have made a statement, yet refuse to explain it. It suggests that you can't justify such a statement.

I could not care less what everton do....I really cannot

 

we could win the league as man united will this season and they play with 11 player at the start of a game...similar to us...they also play in red..similar to us..they are also in england, just like us..

 

we wont be challenging for the top 4 any time soon..in the short, medium or longer term future.....that is my OPINION.....you throwing average attendances around is meaningless to me as the chances are...WE WONT BE FIGHTING IT OUT WITH ARSENAL, SPURS and CHELSEA for 3rd and 4th position......

[Chewy]

Perhaps MLG can name the Premier clubs that have qualifed for the champions league with average crowds of 30k.

 

Blackburn won the league with gates of 20k. And played champions league football as a result. Spurs were there last year with little more than 30k gates.

[Matthew Le God]

Perhaps MLG can name the Premier clubs that have qualifed for the champions league with average crowds of 30k.

 

We are 15th this season and for much of it have been lower. Everton are 5th.

 

If Saints had a 40k stadium like Everton do and were 5th, do you not think Saints would average higher than the current 30k?

 

For example the big games vs Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, Tottenham etc etc wouldn't be capped at 32k and Saints could boost the average like Everton can in a 40k stadium.

 

Oh, and btw to answer your question... BLACKBURN ROVERS won the Premier League and qualified for the Champions League with an average below 30k! You make this too easy Turkish!

 

no they aren't, they get crowds 20% higher.

 

- Everton 5th with average of 36,874 in a 40k stadium

- Saints 15th with average of 30,496 in a 32k stadium

 

It is easier to have a higher average attendance when for the bigger games you have a 40k capacity to fill, Saints can only get 32k max when the big sides come to town, Everton can get 40k which makes it easier to boost the average. Everton are also having a more successful season than Saints, yet only average 6k more.

[Thedelldays]

Blackburn won the league with gates of 20k. And played champions league football as a result. Spurs were there last year with little more than 30k gates.

right..so when we spend more than everyone in the country (like blackburn)...then we may have a chance...oh, and start buying the very best strikers in the country too...like blackburn did....

 

maybe we should put a sneaky bid in for RVP in the summer....

 

as for spurs, they are heavily bank rolled by some billionaire in the carribean..unless you think they can afford the players they have and the northumberland project from premier league and europa league money....????

Edited 19 January, 2013 by Thedelldays