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Questions of morality and money.

The9

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted

Is it just me or is anyone else thinking about the nature of their support following Adkins' sacking ?

 

We all know the Prem is all about money, and Cortese's driven and not the most sentimental of people, but until today I'd at least been hopeful that despite all the money he gives us access to, we could remain something resembling a club with an ethos which supported the basics of grass-roots hard work and success - the stuff about bringing the kids through was positive, if not altogether realistic, and we had a core of people who were prepared to start in the lower leagues and work their way through.

 

And now this.

 

It raises a number of questions for me :

 

1) Fan relationship with the club.

 

Do I just follow the club, right or wrong ? Why ? What's the basis of me wanting them to be successful ?

 

If it's all about Cortese at the expense of things I regard important like rewarding effort, teamwork and integrity, why should I care ?

 

Adkins was successful by any measure – I assume from the OS comments that the idea is for greater success but at what cost ? There's a disjuncture between what he's done and how he's been treated that people are finding distasteful.

 

Many are upset as this reflects poorly on the club – I accept the decision was made "for the better” but what does that even mean ? More wins, more success ? It's not like there's a guarantee that Pochettino will do better than Adkins.

 

Is that gamble more important than having integrity and rewarding Adkins' successes ? Is behaving in an appropriate manner where success is rewarded not more important than success for success' sake ?

 

Do fans even have any justifiable right to want the club they follow to be run in a way they approve of ? The money we put into the club is now far less than tv companies contribute - is it right for the chairman to do what he wants even if it's contrary to the vast majority ? How does that affect how bothered we should be by what happens to that club then ?

 

If we turn into the greatest team ever, does that justify this ?

 

Will protesting against Adkins' treatment just make us look like luddite Chelsea-types who applaud Di Matteo and are against the current manager and apparently Chairman, despite the success they've had ? Should we just tut and carry on with it ? More importantly, what should protesting even attempt to achieve ?

 

The manager is Argentinian – some will probably have issues with that due to the Falklands. Whilst nationality probably shouldn't come into it, but for some it will, and again raises questions about links between club and community. There's also question about the general cynicism of south american tactics and how that impacts on integrity ?

 

2) Modern Football

This is a symbolic moment in our move from "local club" to "global branding experience". We want to be seen as successful, so we employ someone "international" to raise our profile and attract better players. We have a ton of money, so will we go down the route of throwing money at it.

 

If we are going down the money route, is Pochettino even a big enough name, or should we expect Chelsea's conveyor belt ?

 

3) Footballing reasons

 

We're Chelsea lite - if success doesn't guarantee reward, what's the incentive to be successful ? You're getting paid shedloads more than most people anyway, right ?

 

Pochettino doesn't speak English. What's the point of having all the knowledge he has if he has all of it filtered through an interpreter ? Is he up to speed with the technicalities of, say, the 25 man squad rules ? We know he has no knowledge of the players beyond what he might have seen on the tv, and he won't have the same relationship with the players that Adkins had, and Adkins took many of them to uncharted heights. That loyalty will have taken a hit and motivation is vital to performance.

 

Timing : it has to be assumed that Pochettino knows little of English football and we are barely clear of the relegation zone. Will we lose points in the transition period ? There was a reasonable expectation Adkins would probably keep us up, the players were feeling positive, were working for him, there is a huge risk in bringing in a manager with no experience of Prem and it will be a hugely costly mistake if relegated.

 

No answers, just a lot of questions at this stage - like I said, is anyone else re-evaluating whether they should even be bothered ?

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Minty

Minty

Posted
Posted

As I said to you on Facebook, had this discussion with myself many times over the years. If there wasn't an emotional involvement I would've walked away years ago, but there is, and it's not something that can be explained or justified.

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Brussels Saint

Brussels Saint

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm not one of those who are against modern football and actually quite like the profile and way it operates now. It does produce amazing entertainment, but yes has lost some soul.

Also, I know as much as I like to think its not all about winning, it really is.

I feel great when we win and rubbish when we dont. All the other stuff that goes on behind the scenes (barring the excitement of a new signing) I couldn't honestly care about, so long as we don't financially put the club at risk. Actually pretty much the same for most football fans before the 24/7 media overload. When I started supporting the Saints in the 80's, I only cared about if we won or lost, I had no access to other information and it simply was not available.

 

I liked NA hugely and thought he was a brilliant manager for us, but if I felt that by moving him on it would help the club, I could live with that. What I don't get about this decision, is how does it possible benefit the club or team.................I simply don't get the business or sporting rationale for it. It's nuts!

 

I also like NC a lot as he has made a huge impact on the success (winning matches) of this club. He has shown a track record of previously making the right decisions in making us successful, so benefit of the doubt, he needs to be right this time more than any others. If it proves he has this one wrong then I hope he chooses to fall on his sword and apply the same standards to himself as he expects from others. Lets see - Many will doubt if he would do this, but my guess is he will. If not, I'll agree with those who say "what a c**t"

 

My guess in a years time if we are challenging higher up the league, are on the verge of delivering a larger stadium, winning big games etc. today will be long forgotton, the stadium will be full and the vast majority will still be enjoying supporting the Saints.

Edited by Brussels Saint
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um pahars

um pahars

Posted
Posted

Football and Saints are not the Club I fell in love with in the 70s, but then again everything evolves and changes. So I have to accept that and move with the times.

 

Its been hard at times over the years, but as VFTT says, the last few years have been really positive.

 

Of course, winning a majority of games and relative success makes it all the more enjoyable, but I also think a more stable squad, "heroes" like Lallana, Lambert & co and a manager who won the respect of the crowd also helped.

 

Today is a setback to that passion and pride, but once again probably not enough to stop me from supporting my team.

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Wilko

Wilko

Posted
Posted

 

1) Fan relationship with the club.

 

2) Modern Football

 

3) Footballing reasons

 

 

I agree with most of what you said in these points, but have no problem with our new manager's nationality. As for modern football (which, at 28, is pretty much all I've ever known) I could put up with being filmed by the police at games, treated like a child by stewards (at St Mary's and away), the high ticket prices and the **** atmosphere at most grounds. However, my club sacking the man who had led it to the best success during my life as a supporter, a man who seemed like a thoroughly decent bloke as well, might be the tipping point.

 

The last 3 years it's felt like "our" club.

 

Today that was destroyed for me & whilst I'll always love my club, at the moment I want nothing to do with it.

 

I agree with this. I've paid for a train ticket to Wigan, but really don't want to go.

 

What do we want ? Not sure but it's something to do with integrity. When do we want it ? Most of the time.

 

Absolutely. I always felt we were above all the **** that went on with most of the premier league circus, even in the Sturrock/Wigley/Redknapp season. It can't all just be fluffy bunnies and enjoying the sport, but on the other hand the club should be about people; it's staff and fans should be at the heart of all decisions. Today proves that the success of the manager and the will of the supporters count for nothing. I'm not sure I can really be bothered to carry on spending my time and a significant amount of my spare money supporting a club that does not in any way share my outlook on life.

 

I can't help feeling not being in PL had a lot to do with that

 

Yes. I've posted it a number of times this season and said it to a few people at games: take me back to Stockport away.

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Toadhall Saint

Toadhall Saint

Posted
Posted

I love my club of that there is no doubt. That love today has been tarnished somewhat but I will still go and support the team and the Manager until the manager proves he is not worthy to be Manager of SFC ala a certain Mr Branfoot. The new man at the helm certainly has some very big boots to fill but, as I did with Nigel following the departure of Pardew, he will get my support - after all he has done nothing wrong and I certainly do not want him to fail as that would mean my team failing.

 

Today proves one thing to me - there are no morals in football anymore well, at least in the Prem. I did think we were kind of ploughing our own furrow on that side of things but today has proved me very wrong on that score. Morals have been overtaken by good old fashion money and look how thats left that lot down the road.

 

Before Marcus was introduced to the idea of owning a football club by Mr Cortese most of us fans would have never dreamt of having a billionaire owner (all the time wishing Mr Abromovich had chosen us) but would have wished for it all the same. Well now we have that money has it made things any better? Or has it left a bitter taste in your mouth? Is it a case of be careful what you wish for?

 

I do believe that NC wants to fulfil Marcus's dream but I'm not sure I agree with the way he is going about it. Still, we still have a club (or do we). NC is all about the so called modern era where money is the be all and end all.

 

All I can say is that over the years I've seen many changes - football is now on virtually 24/7 - when I was a kid you were lucky to get more than a couple of hours a week (and that was if your Dad let you stay up to watch it). Going to games and standing has gone (yes I remember those crowd sways in a packed but a bit dilapidated grounds and loved it) - some would say that is progress and that fans are now treated as human beings - I think that we are now treated as additional (to Sky's money) income, in effect its a "lets see how much we can fleece these people for". So just a load of pound signs sat in seats. New repro kit anyone? Hey have you got the latest bit of "official" tat? Roll up roll up and get your wallets out cos your damn sure going to need a big fat one!

 

Football back then was 11 V's 11 (or 12 if you include the sub). Nowadays there are so many subs the dugout (remember those? You know the ones before the centrally heated carlos fandango seats) resembles an American football team (how long before we have offence and defence with those special kickers).

 

I'm sure there are more accountants in football now than there are players. After all we need them with the obscene amounts being spent (more than some third world countries have).

 

Has the football improved? Has an England team got anywhere near winning anything? Where are the Glen Hoddles? The Trevor Brookings? The Matthew Le Tissier's eh? Its all huff and puff and about the speed in this country and absolutely nothing to do with technique. The ball "technology" has (unless your a goal keeper as the bloody thing moves around like a balloon in a force 10). Feck me I bet there are massive amounts of money now put into the R&D of leather spheres - we were lucky if we had a ****ing ball when I was a kid (christ I sound like a monty python sketch).

 

As to transfers etc - transfer windows whats all that about eh? Have they levelled the playing field? Nope. What was wrong with the old way of doing things? I'll tell you it wasn't exciting enough thats what - how many of you now stay glued to SSN on the last day of the window? Its all been manufactured to build the excitement and therefore make you want to be part of it. The only problem with that is that to some extent it makes us all a bit morally bankrupt and that is why today makes us feel a little tarnished which, in turn makes us have a long hard look in the mirror.

 

Old values in modern times do not always make good bed fiends.

 

This maybe a new (modern) era with a new set of values but I for one have problems dealing with the morality and the integrity that is so lacking/non existent.

 

Perhaps I look back with rose tinted glasses and that really they were just as **** times as they are now - just different but I'm sure there was more integrity in the game back then.

 

If there is no sentiment in football anymore then what is the point from the fans perspective? I thought it was all about sentiment.

 

Sorry for the randomness of this rant but the OP has touched a nerve.

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Frank's cousin

Frank's cousin

Posted
Posted

Just my opinion...

 

Question that you need to ask yourself is what to do want from football? What does it add to your life following a club? And what do you need from that club in order to keep that bond in place.

 

The tribalism we often associate with it is still a relatively new concept (compared to the 150 years of the game) steming from the post 60s new affluence that meant the a generation stoped going to leave the 'kid's to literallly fight it out on the Terraces - that tribalism I think fuelled a greater, deeper sense of emotional ownership that was missing in many of the youth of those times - culturally significant, but it also generated what is in my opinin the darker nature of the affection for our clubs - you only have to look at our own fans responses when decisions have been made that fans disagree with from the public hatred towards Branfoot, 'hanging' lowe from the Itchen bridge - literally gallows humour but also symbolic, I would argue of an 'unhealthy' reliance emotionally on what is afterall is said and done a sport.

 

That tribal emotional legacy is why so many feel uncomfortable what they call 'modern football', yet today's game is just a natural evolution of a game that has evolved throughout its lifetime, from the rattles and going to see the local neighbours when your club is away form home, through the 70s and 80s cage fest, to the 'sanitisation' of the 90s and the the corporate evolution of the power clubs fuelled by a global audience and no longer the local fan. Where it goes next who knows, but the reality is that it wont return to some 'halcion' vision... and anyway that 'ideal will differ for each generation anyway.

 

The principles of 'taking part' are great for kids and exercise we do, but for professional sport and one that you support it has and always is about success no matter what we would like to think - otherwise why so angry and upset with Lowe and relegation? Why so happy with winning and promotion first from League 1 and then to the prem? The success and failure hits us emotionally, and I doubt many would be 'happy' with Adkins had we managed to lose a couple more games towards the end of last year and then gone out in the play offs - would 'success' really have not been that important then?

 

So if we accept that the game is about success and that the competition is almost a closed shop, where does that leave a club like saints? We had fans crying, screaming at Lowe to show some ambition, yet when the club does (in Cortese's own way), seemingly not happy with our 'struggle' we seem to fall back on the virtues of loyalty and 'niceness' and how business and business attitudes have ruined the experience?

 

I believe you can have both and maybe had Marcus still been here, to counter NCs driven nature, we may have seen a different, less agressive and dictatorial approach, but he is not and we are where we are. Would we really be happy to with a more 'morally correct' club that appeared happy drifting in the CCC? Its easy to wish and say we should have both, but the reality is we have NC who is doing it his way. We might not like it, but whilst its works, can re really complain that much?

 

The situation is never helped by a media that thrives on controversy - the same media that is now so 'morally' straight castigating NC, that enjoys the latest sack race betting at the start of the season, the hypocrissy without shame is startling, but fans dont like it when the club is portrayed so negatively, and this feeds the emotional rhetoric.

 

All in all, these sorts of days are never easy, but they are common these days and how we respond as fans to the new guy will say just as much about us a club as the way we reponded towards today's news.

 

Work out what you get from football, then decide whether its still for you, but dont expect it to change.

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Gambol2K9

Gambol2K9

Posted
Posted
Is it just me or is anyone else thinking about the nature of their support following Adkins' sacking ?

 

We all know the Prem is all about money, and Cortese's driven and not the most sentimental of people, but until today I'd at least been hopeful that despite all the money he gives us access to, we could remain something resembling a club with an ethos which supported the basics of grass-roots hard work and success - the stuff about bringing the kids through was positive, if not altogether realistic, and we had a core of people who were prepared to start in the lower leagues and work their way through.

 

And now this.

 

It raises a number of questions for me :

 

1) Fan relationship with the club.

 

Do I just follow the club, right or wrong ? Why ? What's the basis of me wanting them to be successful ?

 

If it's all about Cortese at the expense of things I regard important like rewarding effort, teamwork and integrity, why should I care ?

 

Adkins was successful by any measure – I assume from the OS comments that the idea is for greater success but at what cost ? There's a disjuncture between what he's done and how he's been treated that people are finding distasteful.

 

Many are upset as this reflects poorly on the club – I accept the decision was made "for the better” but what does that even mean ? More wins, more success ? It's not like there's a guarantee that Pochettino will do better than Adkins.

 

Is that gamble more important than having integrity and rewarding Adkins' successes ? Is behaving in an appropriate manner where success is rewarded not more important than success for success' sake ?

 

Do fans even have any justifiable right to want the club they follow to be run in a way they approve of ? The money we put into the club is now far less than tv companies contribute - is it right for the chairman to do what he wants even if it's contrary to the vast majority ? How does that affect how bothered we should be by what happens to that club then ?

 

If we turn into the greatest team ever, does that justify this ?

 

Will protesting against Adkins' treatment just make us look like luddite Chelsea-types who applaud Di Matteo and are against the current manager and apparently Chairman, despite the success they've had ? Should we just tut and carry on with it ? More importantly, what should protesting even attempt to achieve ?

 

The manager is Argentinian – some will probably have issues with that due to the Falklands. Whilst nationality probably shouldn't come into it, but for some it will, and again raises questions about links between club and community. There's also question about the general cynicism of south american tactics and how that impacts on integrity ?

 

2) Modern Football

This is a symbolic moment in our move from "local club" to "global branding experience". We want to be seen as successful, so we employ someone "international" to raise our profile and attract better players. We have a ton of money, so will we go down the route of throwing money at it.

 

If we are going down the money route, is Pochettino even a big enough name, or should we expect Chelsea's conveyor belt ?

 

3) Footballing reasons

 

We're Chelsea lite - if success doesn't guarantee reward, what's the incentive to be successful ? You're getting paid shedloads more than most people anyway, right ?

 

Pochettino doesn't speak English. What's the point of having all the knowledge he has if he has all of it filtered through an interpreter ? Is he up to speed with the technicalities of, say, the 25 man squad rules ? We know he has no knowledge of the players beyond what he might have seen on the tv, and he won't have the same relationship with the players that Adkins had, and Adkins took many of them to uncharted heights. That loyalty will have taken a hit and motivation is vital to performance.

 

Timing : it has to be assumed that Pochettino knows little of English football and we are barely clear of the relegation zone. Will we lose points in the transition period ? There was a reasonable expectation Adkins would probably keep us up, the players were feeling positive, were working for him, there is a huge risk in bringing in a manager with no experience of Prem and it will be a hugely costly mistake if relegated.

 

No answers, just a lot of questions at this stage - like I said, is anyone else re-evaluating whether they should even be bothered ?

 

Brilliant post and the first thing i've read that really sums up how i've felt today.

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anothersaintinsouthsea

anothersaintinsouthsea

Posted
Posted

Great post the9, hits the nail on the head for me.

 

If you get success you want to feel it is success that is earned and has integrity. You want to be proud of your achievement and proud of how you achieved it. If we go on to greater things we'll never know if Adkins could've achieved the same but any success will need to be something really special for it not to be tainted with our terrible treatment of a great manager and a great bloke.

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eurosaint

eurosaint

Posted
Posted

Abramovich has money but no class and I'm afraid that our chairman has just displayed exactly the same trait !

Loyalty, integrity and even common courtesy have been chucked out of the window today !

The sacking is bad enough but the lack of a proper explanation as to why is an insult to the clubs followers, merely to state that 'there was a need for change to move forward' is simply not good enough !

If no respect is shown to the fans, then it will not be reciprocated and this is surely an unhealthy situation !

Inevitably the furore will die down but I, for one, will not forget the damage done to the heart and soul of a 127 year old institution !

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